jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 17, 2014 17:25:05 GMT -5
If Whitney Houston hasn't been nominated/inducted as of yet, I don't think Mimi's a lock- at least soon after becoming eligible. I don't think she will either, but I think you missed my point. I was saying that acts with only 1 truly notable track are in, yet Mariah has tracks with as much or more of an influence so she should be a lock [but won't be]. Whitney not being in despite her timely (in terms of the Hall) death doesn't bode well for Mariah as you said, but Mariah has had more influence on music as a whole so a better case can be made for her (having said that, both easily merit inclusion IMO).
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Green Baron
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Post by Green Baron on Sept 17, 2014 17:31:13 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if both missed.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 18, 2014 6:19:51 GMT -5
Well, Mariah's not even eligible yet.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 18, 2014 7:32:36 GMT -5
Her eligibility would be next year.
jeng- whether Mariah had had more influence on music as a whole would be debatable. Whitney was first, after all, and set a template for female pop/R&B. Even though Mariah didn't really acknowledge her influence at first- probably because of the label, even though her debut clearly was modeled after her- and set herself apart from the Whitney comparison, would there be a "Mariah" without a "Whitney"?
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 18, 2014 8:22:07 GMT -5
The challenge with Whitney (in my opinion) is that she didn't have much involvement from the creative standpoint.
Looking forward to this year's list of nominees. I'm sure there will be at least one 'out of left field' surprise nominee.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Sept 18, 2014 8:26:12 GMT -5
The challenge with Whitney (in my opinion) is that she didn't have much involvement from the creative standpoint. Neither did Aretha Franklin or Elvis Presley.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 18, 2014 8:37:42 GMT -5
^True.
Just goes to show how schizophrenic the NomCom is. It's almost impossible to predict what they'll do.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 18, 2014 8:46:59 GMT -5
jeng- whether Mariah had had more influence on music as a whole would be debatable. Whitney was first, after all, and set a template for female pop/R&B. Even though Mariah didn't really acknowledge her influence at first- probably because of the label, even though her debut clearly was modeled after her- and set herself apart from the Whitney comparison, would there be a "Mariah" without a "Whitney"? Would there be a Whitney without Aretha, Cissy, etc.? I don't fully get your question/point. I think in terms of vocal influence, Whitney and Mariah are probably a wash. As in, both have been very influential, and you can trace specific current singers back to both of them. Where Mariah pulls ahead is that she has had influence in other ways as well. There is the bridging of pop and urban music that Mariah for which Mariah is very often given credit (bridging pop melodies with urban beats, but also how often and in what ways she used rappers in her music). There is the popularizing of holiday music, specifically with "AIWFCIY" but also her holiday album in general (now you see everyone releasing holiday albums, many of whom point to "AIWFCIY" and Merry Christmas as something they want to achieve). Mariah also sparked a mini-trend of urban ballads with "We Belong Together." In other words, her impact on music runs deep; the vocal influence alone would merit inclusion, but has a lot more than that, too.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 18, 2014 9:23:32 GMT -5
Obviously there would not be a Whitney without a Cissy. ;) Darlene Love was her godmother, too, Aretha honorary godmother, and let's not forget cousin Dionne. So, the influence was in her upbringing.
Popularity of holiday music, and holiday albums, go back way before 1994. And, let's not foget that Kenny G. had the top-selling holiday album that year, and in the SoundSdcan era. ;) AIWFCIY, though, is a modern classic, no doubt.
WBT was a huge success, but there also were other urban ballads around that time. Not saying it didn't influence others (like Mary J. Blige), but it wasn't the only one. And I do see the pop/hip-hop blend, but, as we know, pop and hip-hop had crossed paths before then, too.
I think Mariah may be considered down the road, same with Whitney- eventually, the Hall should recognize them, even if they hasn't been as critically successful as some others.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Sept 18, 2014 9:31:10 GMT -5
The last two pages are on Barbara Streisand, Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey.
None are rock singers, granted that isn't a ticket for automatic exclusion, but the genre of music for each of these three will hold them back some.
If Whitney's death didn't influence an the nomination committee, and when her music was in the spotlight a couple years ago, not sure what will
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Sept 18, 2014 9:36:56 GMT -5
The last two pages are on Barbara Streisand, Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey. None are rock singers, granted that isn't a ticket for automatic exclusion, but the genre of music for each of these three will hold them back some. But much as I love ABBA, it's kind of incredulous that they've been able to get in before Janet, Cher, and Barbra.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 18, 2014 9:43:59 GMT -5
^Some notables in the rock community, though, like Bono, have expressed admiration for ABBA. So, aside from producing near-perfect pop, the group has much admiration. Plus, "Mamma Mia!" was a reminder of how great the original music is.
Gary- that probably is true to an extent. The Hall does look at R&B/soul, though.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 18, 2014 9:54:49 GMT -5
I'm hearing a lot of chatter about Bill Withers, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's nominated.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Sept 18, 2014 10:10:47 GMT -5
Yes, I know there are counter examples, ABBA etc.
Those counter examples, also, I am pretty sure had other things going for them too besides hit singles.
There seems to be fewer of the pop/r&b singer type in the Rock Hall, probably because the focus is rock and not pop.
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Sept 18, 2014 18:28:25 GMT -5
ABBA was helped by the hit Mamma Mia movie and the best selling soundtrack. It was a big reminder for the nominating committee.
That's why I'm hoping Daft Punk/Nile Rodgers winning Grammys and performing will be a good reminder.
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Sept 19, 2014 0:52:27 GMT -5
A lot of it is around perception.
ABBA got a major major (a far bigger than most acts who have undergone something similar) critical and public reevaluation in the early 90s that stands to this day and has only gotten stronger.
That hasn't really happened to Barbra, Whitney or Mariah. from those 3, I see Whitney ultimately getting in (her critical perception has always been better then Mariah's and rock critics are more likely to give her solid credit for her impact), but not so sure about the other two.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Sept 19, 2014 7:03:33 GMT -5
By that regard, Cher should have been a shoo in in 2000 as she was still riding off the success of "Believe" or 2004 after the success of the Farewell tour and her Greatest Hits albums the year before.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 19, 2014 10:47:10 GMT -5
^ABBA's music is much more revered than Cher's, who's never been a critical favorite (though she is a favorite of mine and THE favorite of my other half). She's looked at more as a legendary entertainer, than an artist.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Sept 19, 2014 10:50:28 GMT -5
^ABBA's music is much more revered than Cher's, who's never been a critical favorite (though she is a favorite of mine and THE favorite of my other half). She's looked at more as a legendary entertainer, than an artist. I was going to go see her tomorrow with my better half, but my date is now postponed to December 15th. :(
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 19, 2014 11:27:09 GMT -5
^Yep- was supposed to go this past Monday, but now it's Dec. 2. Sonny & Cher apparently have been discussed in the past, but have yet to be nominated. And Cher's thoughts on the lack of Hall recognition is, in typical Cher fashion, "F*** them."
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 20, 2014 7:49:42 GMT -5
I'd keep any eye open for a Lou Reed (solo) nomination, too. Anything is possible.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 21, 2014 9:14:51 GMT -5
Yes, I know there are counter examples, ABBA etc. Those counter examples, also, I am pretty sure had other things going for them too besides hit singles. There seems to be fewer of the pop/r&b singer type in the Rock Hall, probably because the focus is rock and not pop. Donna Summer, Gladys Knight, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, Jackson 5, and so on are definitely pop/R&B singers more than rock singers ( some of them did have a few rock songs, but so has Janet Jackson who hasn't gotten in). I am just confused as to why some acts seem to be accepted as "rock an roll," while other similar artists are not.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Sept 21, 2014 10:40:09 GMT -5
Yes, as I said, there are counter-examples. This would come from the "influence" factor in the criteria I think. Country artists and R&B artists are in the Rock Hall in abundance.
One criteria that seems to get attention here that is not mentioned and basically ignored by induction committees is #1 hits on the Pop chart, platinum albums, record sales in general or size of fanbase
From the rock hall website under: eligibility
To be eligible for induction as an artist (as a performer, composer, or musician) into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the artist must have released a record, in the generally accepted sense of that phrase, at least 25 years prior to the year of induction; and have demonstrated unquestionable musical excellence.
We shall consider factors such as an artist's musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation and superiority in style and technique, but musical excellence shall be the essential qualification of induction.
Note: Not arguing for or against the inclusion of Barbara Streisand, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion or Janet Jackson or...
Just merely stating why I think they are not in already.
In Whitney's case, the chances of future induction appear to be zero(or near zero). The body of work is in and judged. The career length is in. Her death did not bring an induction as it did with Donna Summer. Not sure what is left. Unless someone else takes on the works of Whitney in the form of a movie, musical or album and it catches fire.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 22, 2014 7:21:41 GMT -5
I don't know about zero for Whitney- perhaps for any time soon, but who knows down the road. Lots of acts have waited years and years for induction- in recent times, there's Neil Diamond, Donovan, The Faces, Randy Newman, Albert King, etc. All inducted 20+ years after first becoming eligible.
Country acts, actually, aren't in the Hall in abundance. As said prior, I believe that that's partly because of the Country Music Hall of Fame, established 25 years prior to the Rock Hall. Just a theory, though.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Sept 22, 2014 9:20:20 GMT -5
I don't know about zero for Whitney- perhaps for any time soon, but who knows down the road. Lots of acts have waited years and years for induction- in recent times, there's Neil Diamond, Donovan, The Faces, Randy Newman, Albert King, etc. All inducted 20+ years after first becoming eligible. Country acts, actually, aren't in the Hall in abundance. As said prior, I believe that that's partly because of the Country Music Hall of Fame, established 25 years prior to the Rock Hall. Just a theory, though. Well, I said near-zero. Whitney is not available to add to her body of work. Someone else would have to pick it up. Such an example exists with the work of ABBA and the Broadway musicals and movies that followed. Unless something like that happens, I would say it is zero. Donna Summer's death brought an induction, Whitney's did not. So nothing more to add to bring awareness to her work, unless someone does it. Regarding country acts, you should take a look at the list, there are quite a few. Probably falls under the "influence" criteria
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imbondz
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Post by imbondz on Sept 22, 2014 9:25:49 GMT -5
I've never understood the ABBA love. They made catchy but cheesy, melodramatic pop music.
If they're in, don't see how Mariah or Whitney wouldn't get in. I think both deserve it. Whitney at her best vocally blew everyone else away IMO.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 22, 2014 10:22:37 GMT -5
Obviously there would not be a Whitney without a Cissy. ;) Darlene Love was her godmother, too, Aretha honorary godmother, and let's not forget cousin Dionne. So, the influence was in her upbringing. Popularity of holiday music, and holiday albums, go back way before 1994. And, let's not foget that Kenny G. had the top-selling holiday album that year, and in the SoundSdcan era. ;) AIWFCIY, though, is a modern classic, no doubt. WBT was a huge success, but there also were other urban ballads around that time. Not saying it didn't influence others (like Mary J. Blige), but it wasn't the only one. And I do see the pop/hip-hop blend, but, as we know, pop and hip-hop had crossed paths before then, too. I think Mariah may be considered down the road, same with Whitney- eventually, the Hall should recognize them, even if they hasn't been as critically successful as some others. Ah, your usual attempts to discredit Carey. In references to saying things like "it wasn't the only one" and "pop and hip-hop had crossed paths before," I'd like you to provide an example of an artist who was the the "only one" to create/do something as well as an example of when something hadn't been done before. Nirvana was by no means the only (or first) grunge artist; their sounded borrowed a lot from The Pixies. That doesn't mean Nirvana wasn't influential, though. Madonna was by no means the only (or first) artist to use music videos to deepen the impact of her music and messages, but I am sure that doesn't stop you from talking about her influence there. So, why don't you give Carey the same leeway? And while Mariah may not have been the first/only to mesh pop and urban music, she was certainly the most committed artist to do so and was the most influential. That isn't just my opinion, it's one that has been expressed by other musicians and music journalists. You can read more on that in my recent "Heartbreaker" blog: www.est1997.com/music/often-imitated-never-duplicated-the-influence-of-heartbreaker-by-mariah-carey-jay-z/
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 22, 2014 14:26:00 GMT -5
It's not a "usual attempt" to discredit anyone. I'm sure you are aware that some have said she invented "hip-pop," or whatever- I'm just reiterating that that's not the case. I agree that she was very committed to it and other acts did do it more often after she did- so in that regard, she helped make it more prominent than what it was.
Gary- yes, but the amount of country acts that should be in probably is not as high as one would think. Patsy Cline, Dolly Parton, Willie nelson- all well-regarded acts not in the Rock Hall.
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Sept 22, 2014 15:34:15 GMT -5
I'm trying to think of the first major pop star to feature a rapper; the earliest I can think of is Janet's "Alright" remix featuring Heavy D in the spring of 1990. A few months later Glenn Medeiros featured Bobby Brown (rapping, not singing) on his #1 hit "She Ain't Worth It". Prince had the atrocious Tony M. during the Diamonds & Pearls era ('91-'92). Was there anyone in the 80s? I don't think Madonna ever did it. Bobby Brown and Neneh Cherry blurred lines but they did all the rapping and singing by themselves.
At any rate, those were just pop songs with tacked-on raps. I give Mariah credit for adding a hip-hop *production* style to pop music. I think that was a bigger deal than just having a rapper do the third verse.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 22, 2014 16:58:36 GMT -5
^Well, it depends on what constitutes a "pop star." In the 1980s, for instance, Chaka Khan had a rapper on "I Feel For You," and Jody Watley had Eric B. and Rakim in "Friends."
Janet Jackson had Chuck D. on a janet. track in 1993. Who rapped on Michael Jackson's "Black or White"? Everlast rapped on a remix of Madonna's "Rain" in 1993, and there were guys rapping on the silly Erotica track "Did You Do It," which was a reworking of the jazzy/hip-hop track "Waiting. One of them, I think, was Andre Betts, who co-produced a few tracks on the album.
Nonetheless, like jeng said, it's not a matter of being the first, or one of the first. Though I'm not sure how the Hall will look at her after she become eligible. It may take a while before there's any kind of serious discussion.
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