The state of R&B

[Deleted]

With the changes in Billboard's R&B chart to favor crossover artists over artists who cater solely to Urban or Urban AC as well as the major labels dissolving Urban divisions into the the larger label umbrella and laying off many employees who worked for their Urban divisions, where do you think R&B is headed?

R&B has been around since the 1940s. It started experiencing major success in the 1950s and 1960s and eventually became one of the dominant genres in mainstream music in the 1990s and 2000s. Now many people think the genre is being threatened by the consolidation of the music industry and the increased focus on pop acts. Has the music industry doomed the genre?

[#LisaRinna]

This makes me so upset :'(

[allow that]

R&B will always be around. Let's not forget that music is cyclical. We went through a period where R&B dominated Pop radio less than a decade ago to the same extent that post-grunge dominated in the mid-90's and plastic electropop dominates at the moment. It became over saturated so mainstream audiences moved on. But it will come back. I've got no doubt.

As for the ACTUAL R&B community, it will also still be here. Radio listeners offer a safeguard. Remember the outcry over "Starships" earlier this year? Well if the current chart methodology existed back in May that would have been the #1 R&B song in the country. I do think true R&B fans will turn away from radio if stations like Hot 97 and Power 105 become dominated by songs like "Diamonds" and "Starships." Ultimately PD's will have to respond and determine other ways to know and retain their audience. That is their job description afterall.

It's obvious that crossover R&B acts will benefit from the policy changes, but how much? We have acts like Usher and Beyonce delivering traditional R&B songs and pop-makeover R&B songs. I can see major acts focusing on their Pop leaning material which means crossover R&B is going to become increasingly more calculated. Unfortunate.

But there's one niche of R&B music that this will help: the kind of "trendy" blogosphere R&B that The Weeknd and Frank Ocean currently deliver. There are ways to sell real R&B. Just need a way to stand out and build a fan base from the ground up. This niche is my one glimmer of hope: imagine if acts like these actually break out regularly now.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I think the worst that can happen is that there won't be any major R&B superstars since there won't be any charts for them to cater to anymore so that's one less measurement for what makes someone a superstar. But for those singers and acts that make albums for reasons other than hits and high sales, they'll still exist.
When you think about it though, there haven't been many high selling non-crossover R&B acts in recent years. So maybe nothing will really change other than the loss of a chart.

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2012 12:08:29 GMT -5 Devil Marlena Nylund said:

I think the worst that can happen is that there won't be any major R&B superstars since there won't be any charts for them to cater to anymore so that's one less measurement for what makes someone a superstar. But for those singers and acts that make albums for reasons other than hits and high sales, they'll still exist.
When you think about it though, there haven't been many high selling non-crossover R&B acts in recent years. So maybe nothing will really change other than the loss of a chart.

It depends on what you consider "high selling". I've posted this a bunch of times when people say that R&B doesn't sell, but there are Urban AC acts who in the past few years have outsold pop acts with multiple hits.

[allow that]

Oct 12, 2012 12:47:41 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

It depends on what you consider "high selling". I've posted this a bunch of times when people say that R&B doesn't sell, but there are Urban AC acts who in the past few years have outsold pop acts with multiple hits.

Speaking of album sales: Acts like Maxwell, John Legend, Sade, etc actually offer a higher ROI ratio than someone like Rihanna. She may be selling more, but much more is invested financially in order for her to sell (promo, big producers, etc). That's a big star. Now think of how much money has been flushed to promote Taio Cruz or Karmin types that can't sell for shit. If record sales were similar to stocks sold on the NYSE, I'd purchase Maxwell stock over Cher Lloyd or Jason Derulo stock any day.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Big producers will want to work with Rihanna for cheap because they know they can make it up in royalties and therefore will be willing to submit stuff to her on the cheap because she can sell it.

[allow that]

Oct 12, 2012 15:39:55 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

Big producers will want to work with Rihanna for cheap because they know they can make it up in royalties and therefore will be willing to submit stuff to her on the cheap because she can sell it.

Ohhhhh so that's how it works!

[spooky21]

Oct 12, 2012 15:46:30 GMT -5 allow that said:

Oct 12, 2012 15:39:55 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

Big producers will want to work with Rihanna for cheap because they know they can make it up in royalties and therefore will be willing to submit stuff to her on the cheap because she can sell it.

Ohhhhh so that's how it works!

Please, Adonis is just blowing smoke again.

Producers that are classified as "big" always have a flat session rate. They get paid whether or not Rihanna ends up using the song.

If the song ends up being an album track or single, they get additional writing/producing royalties on units sold.

[Wave.]

Oct 12, 2012 16:15:22 GMT -5 spooky21 said:

Oct 12, 2012 15:46:30 GMT -5 allow that said:

Ohhhhh so that's how it works!

Please, Adonis is just blowing smoke again.

[Rican@]

Oct 12, 2012 15:39:55 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

Big producers will want to work with Rihanna for cheap because they know they can make it up in royalties and therefore will be willing to submit stuff to her on the cheap because she can sell it.

Lol that was a good one. Haha, you had me going.


Anyway, this is sad state for R&B right now.

[Deleted]

Major label r&b acts are probably screwed right now, unfortunately.

As Allow That said though, I think this will somewhat ironically spur a new direction for r&b artists to promote themselves online and that could help in the long run. I have said before that one thing that always struck me was that r&b does not buy music digitally at nearly the same rate that music overall does and I could never quite pinpoint why, though I had a couple of theories. If r&b fans are forced to go online to seek new music maybe it will lead them to buy the music online as well? That in turn will give r&b a digital boost that will give labels reason to invest in it. One can hope, anyway.

I'm thinking what will ultimately happen is that r&b will become more grassroots or underground in a way and develop into its own flourishing indie market. We may not hear much of it on the radio anymore but the interest will always be there, and I think there are too many people who currently still love and appreciate it to let it go. It may seem antiquated or a step back in the time machine but if we have to go that way then so be it.

[allow that]

Oct 12, 2012 17:19:21 GMT -5 @cynthiarose said:

I'm thinking what will ultimately happen is that r&b will become more grassroots or underground in a way and develop into its own flourishing indie market. We may not hear much of it on the radio anymore but the interest will always be there, and I think there are too many people who currently still love and appreciate it to let it go. It may seem antiquated or a step back in the time machine but if we have to go that way then so be it.

Yeah, water always finds its own level. We're not talking about a mini subgenre/fad like 80's freestyle, grunge, or crunk that comes and goes. We're speaking about one of music's MAIN genre's that's more or less been around since the start of commercial music, period. This river is going to continue to flow.

I do think new R&B artists are going to channel themselves differently now. It will very much be about building online buzz and finding fans organically in the beginning. This MAY end up being a good thing for the actual music at times. Let's look at Alternative radio in the early 00's. It was inundated with shitty active rock acts like Nickelback, Seether, and Hinder. True indie/alternative acts had no outlet: this led to a creative BOOM over the internet that (slowly but surely) Alternative radio had to respond to. Look at today's chart: no Nickelback to be found.

One can hope R&B follows a similar pattern. The Weeknd, Frank Ocean, Jhene Aiko, etc are doing a good job so far.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2012 12:57:41 GMT -5 allow that said:

I do think new R&B artists are going to channel themselves differently now. It will very much be about building online buzz and finding fans organically in the beginning. This MAY end up being a good thing for the actual music at times.

I really hope so. Commercial R&B is experiencing one of its stalest periods ever right now. Meanwhile there are a lot of buzzed about R&B artists who aren't having major radio success who are putting out some amazing material right now. R&B really needs to experience a major transition.

[chocolatethunder]

Just like the fashion industry killed Afros, curly hair and replaced it with weaves and euro hair, billboard/music industry is doing same to RnB music. Its been going on for a while as more and more black artist just to survive and make money have to water down their product or produce pop songs for mainstream fans but this officially has killed organic Rnb and will cause any young upcoming Rnb artist to give in to the labels . The real losers will be the future generation of kids who will never have their own RnB superstars and that will be a damn shame Its just another form of gentrification.

[allow that]

Oct 14, 2012 22:56:36 GMT -5 @chocolatethunder said:

Just like the fashion industry killed Afros, curly hair and replaced it with weaves and euro hair, billboard/music industry is doing same to RnB music.

I feel ya tho.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

This will make the R&B charts much more volatile.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Oct 12, 2012 16:15:22 GMT -5 spooky21 said:

Oct 12, 2012 15:46:30 GMT -5 allow that said:

Ohhhhh so that's how it works!

Please, Adonis is just blowing smoke again.

Producers that are classified as "big" always have a flat session rate. They get paid whether or not Rihanna ends up using the song.

If the song ends up being an album track or single, they get additional writing/producing royalties on units sold.

i was trying to point out that we dont know what the roi on maxwell is vs. rihanna. We dont know what deals were struck for promo and recording costs or the ratio of free promo to paid promo. I should be more direct next time. In any case most of these r&b/hip-hop acts will debut high and fall from there.

[chocolatethunder]

Adonis i guess i see where you may be going with your train of thought however the ROI on Maxwell and Rihanna isnt even close though, you dont have to see the budget to kinda figure that out.

[K.]

I think R&B just needs a young new star with a stellar voice and good songwriting skills, like Alicia was in 2001 or John Legend was in 2004. The only real breakouts in the genre recently (besides perhaps Drake) have been more rhythmic singers who have since transitioned toward the electro-pop trend. And there seems to be way too much autotune and other mechanical correction for a genre based on soul.

[hidizzyguy]

Well, I feel like Beyonce, Usher, Elle Varner, Melanie Fiona, Miguel, Frank Ocean, sometimes Ne-Yo, and now Brandy with her new album, have all pushed R&B to a mix of old/new/kinda pop sensibilities that both cross-over but still maintain very genuine R&B standards.

What separates them by a truly VAST margin from say the Nicki's and Rihanna's are the use of autotune and mechanical corrections you speak of.

[Deleted]

Note: this comment is a carryover from the conversation in the Brandy - Put It Down thread.

I will say this, I don't think Usher is being dishonest when he makes dance/pop. I think he truly enjoys it, and for most of his career he has done well on CHR so it makes sense that he would adapt some of his music to fit pop while still making more music that speaks to his r&b roots. It is frustrating however to see him trapped between two formats/fans of two different genres who basically refuse to accept both sides of him. And if he is forced to choose, under these new chart rules, his label is going to push him to veer more pop. At least those fans do buy singles...

For most other r&b artists though, it would come across as disingenuous b/c they're not known for making crossover music, or even trying to. The ironic part is that if these r&b acts do try a lot of them would likely flop b/c the sound doesn't fit them, and when an artist and his/her music is mismatched people tend not to respond to it well (or at all). I just can't think of any way in which these new chart rules will benefit r&b. At best, urban PDs will ignore the new chart and other than adding Rihanna en masse, it will be business as usual. I could deal with that (though it will be annoying seeing Rihanna block pretty much everyone from the top b/c she's ALWAYS going to have a damn album/single out and her sales and crossover AI will always guarantee her the top spot even if urban isn't into it). But I'm worried that someone will eventually break through with a 'crossover' r&b hit - and by crossover I mean something that is like, 75% pop and maybe 25% r&b. So all the r&b artists will be pushed to make that kind of music, and anyone who doesn't or who fails at it will be shoved out.

Oct 17, 2012 6:14:19 GMT -5 K. said:

I think R&B just needs a young new star with a stellar voice and good songwriting skills, like Alicia was in 2001 or John Legend was in 2004.

Elle Varner and Miguel are both great songwriters and have fantastic voices. Those are just the two newest ones off the top of my head. There isn't a lack of talent, just a lack of talent that is either willing or able to somehow bridge the gap between what CHR will deem mainstream enough to play and what urban will deem r&b enough to play. (Rihanna either being the obvious exception or not applying at all, depending on how you feel about her.) There's Beyonce, but she's coming off an album that failed to produce any crossover hits so we don't know about her yet. And if she does come back with a CHR hit will it be more like Single Ladies (which also smashed urban) or Sweet Dream (which did not even break r&b top 40)?

If we're talking someone like Alicia and John that would be an adult contemporary singer, essentially. That would be fine, but I don't know if that can happen now. Adele pretty much locked down that niche.

[Deleted]

Cynthia, you have written a book on this subject at this point and I agree with every single word.

[hidizzyguy]

Mariah needs to emulate her 90's music methodology. That is the answer.

[Deleted]

^I'm all for that!

Oct 20, 2012 21:14:36 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Cynthia, you have written a book on this subject at this point

...this is terrifying b/c I feel like I haven't written the half of it You'd think I'd put this effort toward writing a book I can actually sell.

[allow that]

Just caught up in the "Put It Down" thread and I pretty much agree with Cynthia 100%.

Oct 20, 2012 18:01:33 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

Song's like Freak Me, Weak, Knockin Da Boots, You're Makin Me High, etc... all crossed over to pop radio with heavy heavy airplay. I don't think anyone would call those songs watered down.

As jazzy said, that was 15-20 years ago. While those songs did cross over to Pop radio, let's not forget that R&B was NOT the sound of Pop radio at that time. In the mid 90's it was post-grunge & AC power ballads. By the late 90's we had the whole Lillith & teenpop thing dominating. R&B stood out as the exception rather than the norm and usually didn't get play unless it was already a HUGE hit or a HUGE act. H-Town, Silk, Shai, etc had maybe one crossover hit each but were not household names at Pop. SWV had a few hits but Pop radio abandoned them by the time their debut hype wore off. Toni was a big Pop act: who was marketed as an Adult Contemporary balladeer.

This is different than the early/mid 00's when it was pretty much R&B (and rap) as the dominant sound on Pop radio. Personally R&B felt very different during this time than it did in the 90's imo. I think this is the weakest period of R&B in the entire time that I followed music. This is when R&B truly became "watered down" (hello Ashanti, hello T-Pain). While it may not have been poppy in terms of style, it was "poppy" in terms of becoming a glossy, beat-driven, autotuned party genre. It also became so overexposed that I'm not surprised Pop radio is taking a break still; unfortunately reducing R&B to a level even lower than it ever had been. The mid-00's "party R&B" did leave a lasting mark on the format though; the format remains a "party" format (much more so than in the 90's) except instead of autotune & guest rappers we have synths & guest DJ's. In a way R&B's meshing with Pop contributed to its own downfall.

I guess my point is things happen in cycles and you can easily see the changing of the guard moments if you look for them. But it's not like New Jack Swing dominated Pop radio in the 90's and stayed on top until a year ago. R&B has crossed over at various paces and while it's at an all time low right now, it follows up a period of when it was dominant in presence but particularly low in quality. So I don't understand the "need" for it to be on Pop radio; it's not always a good thing.

I do appreciate that while R&B acts in the 90's occasionally scored Pop hits, it was genuine R&B. I do think the tide can swing that way again (look: "Adorn" just went Top 50 at Pop without promo. Let's call it a bud) but given the OVERALL climate right now I don't think we're truly ready. That's why the reformed chart methodology is so annoying; there's been progress for an R&B renaissance of sorts and the pre-existing Billboard R&B chart was reflective of that. Now we'll see poppy, quasi-R&B dominating the top spot which encourages a return to the mid-00's formula of labels creating and radio stations supporting"party ready R&B."

Oct 20, 2012 22:14:02 GMT -5 hidizzyguy said:

Mariah needs to emulate her 90's music methodology. That is the answer.

She was basically doing the "Scream"/"Lemme See," "Let Me Love You/"Lazy Love," "Starships"/"Beez in the Trap" thing in the 90's... except it was called "Fantasy"/"Fantasy (Remix)." Now there's a concept! I'm surprised none of our crossover stars have done this lately, but then again, I could see it leading to backlash tbh.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2012 15:43:26 GMT -5 Adonis the DemiGod! said:

There has to be a balance of artistry and some consideration for the wants of the listeners.

Exactly. I like my balance one way. The record execs (and you) like the balance a different way. I don't see what there really is to argue. For me, the balance has shifted more and more away from artistic integrity and toward what it takes to score an easy hit. Meanwhile, these easy hits aren't really selling albums. Now it's getting to the point where other genres are being forced to move closer and closer to the trends of Top 40 radio to even compete on their own formats. When labels find the right balance with an artist like Adele who has both artistic integrity and widespread appeal, look what happens. She sold 10 million copies of her album in the past couple of years when many big artists are struggling to even sell 1 million.

[chocolatethunder]

Allow That the difference is Fantasy/Fantasy remix or ABMY and its remix was less jarring than what others are doing now ie Scream,Starships, as a R&B lover i could always see the r&B influences in her pop songs

Edit: R&B needs a new producer to emerge who changes the sound and creates a blueprint in crossover R&B that everyone else copies. I think more than the artists its the producers that have become very stale and weak.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2012 17:25:29 GMT -5 @chocolatethunder said:

Allow That the difference is Fantasy/Fantasy remix or ABMY and its remix was less jarring than what others are doing now ie Scream,Starships, as a R&B lover i could always see the r&B influences in her pop songs

I agree. It's not like Urban radio wasn't playing the album versions of her songs too. The remixes were more of an added bonus for Urban radio. Mariah never really had to struggle to balance the two formats, because most of her music sat comfortably between the two. That's become a lot more difficult in the past few years as CHR/Pop and Urban radio have diverged more than they have in at least 20 years.

[chocolatethunder]

A perfect example is Anytime You Need A Friend which effortlessly was pop, r&B and rooted in gospel without even trying, that's the magic of 90's Mariah and why to this day she is respected across genres and i say she has her Stan's of course but also has one of the most passive pool of fans to draw support from with the right material.