Gender Equality in Music

[Deleted]

The thread title is a bit general, but I'm actually opening this for the sake of a Comm project so please bear with me here (and try to take this seriously). 

So.. women in music. The industry. The artists, the managers-- pretty much their role in the industry in relation to any genre or artist you can think of. Specifically in relation to gender equality within those facets of the industry. You can basically treat this thread like a sort of survey, but feel free to talk amongst yourselves and expand on your points (by that I mean absolutely do it). Obviously, even that is an incredibly broad topic, so here's a few questions to answer:

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry?
Does one gender hold more power than the other? 
Why do you feel the way you do? 
Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)?
Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)?

...and pretty much feel free to talk about any issue that pertains to the topic that these questions may not answer.

Disclaimer: anything you say in this thread may end up being cited by myself and used. Thanks xo

[Deleted]

No, I don't think there's equality in the industry.

Both men and women are held to a diffrent set of standards (aside from sex appeal, which both genders sell).

It seems to me that men can sell sex without question, but once a woman does, she's frequently ridiculed and called slut, w*hore, etc.


I think the issue of power lies within the power to sell, and that's obviously diffrent in every genre. Pop women are dominating; contrast that with Country, where women are only paid dust if they're Miranda or Carrie.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Post reserved but for now I'm just going to mention that recent Taylor Swift interview and step out.

[irice22]

I'll kick this off by saying this: I think the pop music industry is doing better than most other industries, but there's a lot of work to do. The decision to combine male and female vocals at the Grammy's was a good and progressive decision.

Something like this would never word for the Oscars, females actors would hardly ever get nominated. I think gender equality is much worse in that industry.

In this case, you may argue that there are not enough men represented in terms of pop music; however, I think this could reflect the musical interests of both genders.

[Glove Slap]

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry? No. Definitely moreso than in the past, but nowhere near equality.
Does one gender hold more power than the other? Yes
Why do you feel the way you do? See below.
Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)? Yes, but she's not a good example because she's taken a different route with her career.
Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)? Overall, they are definitely better*.

The industry is still extremely male dominated. Female artists might be prominent singers, but if you look at the prominent producers and label heads, it's virtually all men, and this isn't new. Look at the big producers throughout the ages. George Martin, Phil Specter, Quincy Jones, Mutt Lange, Jam & Lewis & so on continues to the present day with the credits filled by Dr Luke, Stargate, Max Martin, Benny Blanco, Pharrell Williams, Jeff Bhasker, Paul Epworth, Ryan Tedder, etc. Even the underground producers and up and comers are virtually all guys. Same with label people. Clive Davis, Jimmy Iovine, Tommy Mottola, Clive Calder, David Geffen, L.A. Reid, etc. You can talk all you want about Adele's 21 being an example of a woman dominating, but when you look at the credits, everyone who helped her make it is male.

The most ironic thing here though is that the consumer base for all this consists of more women than men.


*There are some exceptions to this though. If you are an aspiring female country singer, there's very little encouragement. Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert getting more hits year after year isn't a sign of progress for women when virtually no one can even remotely follow in their footsteps.

I will add more to this post later when I get my coffee.

[Deleted]

Can't comment at length right now (you know I will be back in here later) but to semi-answer the questions quickly so I have a talking point later:

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry? No

Does one gender hold more power than the other? Yes, men > women

Why do you feel the way you do? Men still own all the labels. All the producers are still male; literally the only exception I can think of is Missy Elliott, and she came up with Timbaland so I wonder if part of the reason she was able to break into the boys' club is because she had a male partner. There's actually an interesting pattern here, as women are seemingly pretty common on the songwriting front. I feel there is something to that (men creating the music while women create the lyrics/melodies) but I don't know what, exactly. It doesn't really even out even with that in mind because we know there are still situations where the male execs/producers are trying to tell the female singers/writers what to say.

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)? Yes. Can't answer this quickly though. Lot of nuances, and every genre has its own biases and standards (i.e. what would be a problem in country may be what it takes to succeed in pop or r&b, and vice versa). women are virtually nonexistent in rock, an absence that in itself makes it a point worth discussing, but because of said absence there probably wouldn't be much to say there. but basically everything comes down to marketing, and how women are 'allowed' to sell themselves. You can be a good girl or you can be a sexpot but you're rarely if ever allowed to go back and forth or be something in between. Ex. consider what Rihanna's 'character' is in the public eye, and then examine her lyrics and ask yourself if it's a 100% match. There's a reason why Beyonce's approach to feminism is giving people fits. And Bey isn't even taking on a complicated approach.

Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)? On the surface it looks slightly better but still not anywhere where it needs to be. i think if I delve into this more I would find myself thinking that things are pretty much the same. I doubt it's worse, but it's hard to be worse than the 50s and 60s where "is it okay to spank your wife?" was considered a legitimate opinion piece worth printing in a magazine. (All the men said yes btw.)

[when the pawn...]

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry? No

Does one gender hold more power than the other? Yes. Men hold more power.

Why do you feel the way you do? Just by the numbers, men hold the overwhelming majority in the industry, looking at label executives, managers, agents, lawyers, producers etc.

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)? Yes. Male artists speak explicitly about sex in their songs and often are selling it in their videos and performances (Chris Brown, Nick Jonas, Usher, Trey Songz, Justin Timberlake,R. Kelly, endless stream of rap artists) but people take greater issue with it when it is coming from women (Madonna, Beyonce, Janet Jackson, Rihanna, Katy Perry, Nicki Minaj, Britney Spears, etc. etc. etc.).

Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)? I think it is better for women now than ever before. With regard to women being sexual in their music/videos/art/etc., a lot of what Katy/Beyonce/Rihanna/et.c are doing now are certainly post-Madonna/Janet happenings, even if people are still barking bulls*** about it.

[Rurry]

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry? Of course not!

Does one gender hold more power than the other? Men.

Why do you feel the way you do? Well, when you look at genres like rock, country, and hip-hop, male artists are way dominant. There's a handful of successful female artists in all three genres, but it's a lot harder for them to gain the respect of the industry than it is for a male artist. Then you get to pop music, which has lots of powerful female voices, but those voices are tightly controlled by even more powerful men...and these men often uses powerful women to fall into and exploit gender stereotypes.

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)? Definitely. Just look at how much flack Nicki got for singing about butts, as if male hip-hop artists don't get far more explicit than that. Nicki is also often called a "loose cannon" or a "diva" for some of her unconventional behavior, but Drake can crack bottles on peoples' heads and threaten to beat people and no one turns the other way.

Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)? Generally better, we still have a long way to go though and it feels like the music industry has kind of stagnated in this regard since the '80s or so.

[Deleted]

Well Nicki Minaj just got dragged through the mud for corrupting our youth with her butt. She was slandered.

Where was that reaction with Nick Jonas who is stripped almost fully naked grabbing his junk all over town? Where is the "OMG DOES HE REALIZE THE MESSAGES HE IS SENDING TO KIDS" ? don't see anyone calling him whore

you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry? NO.

one gender hold more power than the other? " MEN DUH"
Why do you feel the way you do?  " Men have all the power within the media and record labels, so woman are still being asked to to conform to men wants and needs. 

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)?  THE SIMPLE FACT THAT HE IS CALLED A RAPPER and SHE IS CALLED A FEMALE RAPPER IS REASON ENOUGH.


Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)? 

Tough one to answer because i can argue that its just as bad today as it was then, women are even more objectified now than they were say 1960's. So while certain areas have improved most of that is just window dressing.

[surfy]

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry?

No.

Does one gender hold more power than the other?
It's a male dominated industry, no doubt.

Why do you feel the way you do?
Because Nicki gets dragged for twerking, and Taylor gets dragged for writing about her love life... it's ridiculous!

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)?
Definitely, no one shits on him for rapping about "fucking his hoes" and shit like that, and it's absolutely sexist and utterly ridiculous.

Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)?
I think it's improved some over time, but we've still got a ways to go.

[Deleted]

In short: No. Absolutely not. There is a huge imbalance of power within the industry, as has been noted: almost every major power player is a man outside of songwriters (where men still edge women out) and artists (where it's just about equal.) Now, I think it's a false assumption to assume that because label bigwigs and executives are men that female artists hold no autonomy or control over their careers, direction and material BUT at the end of the day, the people with the most control are and have almost always been men. Aside from Missy Elliott, who had a whole harem of talent that she introduced to the mainstream, and in some ways Mariah, who has been noted for introducing certain rap acts to pop audiences, I can't think of many women who have held the kind of power that LA Reid or Jimmy Iovine do in terms of being able to break talent. I will say that because of powerful women in the industry, going back as far as like Diana Ross who fucked her way to the middle and then became a superstar because of her own determination, female artists have risen to become major power players in terms of holding control over the direction of their projects, exploring new sounds and being able to hold their own against executives. I remember Foxy Brown said in an interview that even though she was (allegedly) writing her own music and choosing which producers to work with, she would go into board meetings and everyone would talk over her as though she wasn't guiding her album's direction. Flash forward to today with Nicki, who probably still experiences those same barriers but who definitely has been able to hold her own and act as an executive force in her career.

With regards to Nicki/Drake, I don't think that is a comparison that we can make. Maybe in 2010 when they both debuted, but not today. Aside from a few R&B cuts and some electro influence, Drake has been a rap artist who is fighting to go down in history as one of the greatest rappers of his time. Nicki's career so far has been a rollercoaster of trying to heralded as a key rapper of the time, trying to be a pop star and trying to be a global brand. Her decision to go pop definitely lost her some credibility, as she basically just sold out and cashed in her hip hop credibility to make basic dance music, and additionally, her brand being so over the top and crazy has been met with hesitation from the start. Obviously, there is sexism at play with how she is perceived, especially with pop/white audiences, but I don't think her and Drake are in comparable career points for the comparison to really make sense.

At the end of the day, this is not a "music" issue. This is an issue that harks back to the position of women in society, one which is met with considerable double standards and a tremendous gap in terms of respect in comparison to men. That's honestly what it comes down to. People (meaning men AND women) do not respect female artists as much as they respect men, generally speaking. We see it clearly in hip hop, where female MCs are sparse and they all have to fight to make a dent even when there are literally dozens of wack male rappers who can get a buzz off of one hot song. Similarly, aside from a shortlist of women who seem to be considered "acceptable" to listen to and have become respected for their craft, most female artists are not taken seriously, especially in Pop music. There are a lot of reasons why Pop music is looked down on (that have been touched on in other threads here) but there really is only one reason that female pop artists are so often disregarded/ignored/belittled and that's because people are hesitant, if not opposed, to treat female artists as respected/acceptable unless they've jumped through a million hoops to get there.

[Green Baron]

Welp, here goes.

Do you believe that there is gender equality in the music Industry?

The answer is no. And there will never be. It will be downright impossible for women to earn the same level of respect in the industry that men do. There are too many factors against them, and the fight will not prevail. Maybe it's just the cynic in me who loves looking at everything negatively, but although it may get better for women, that's like going from 10% to 15%. If the equality means reaching 50% each, that's not going to happen. Men have all the power in the industry right now, and for that to suddenly balance out is just not going to happen. Women are always going to be viewed sexually first (yes, I'm guilty of that) and talent second. Aside from a few exceptions, it's always the sex that goes first because sex sells. Right now, the music industry is male-driven. They're not GOING to give women any power or equality. People can try all they one, but this is a hopeless cause and it always will be. Unless a strong female figure becomes a trendsetter, it's not going to happen. 

From other perspectives, females do right now dominate a large chunk of the radio. So while they are equal in a commercial standpoint, there are others that prohibit an equal split.

Does one gender hold more power than the other?

Yes. And they always will. Men aren't going to relinquish their power to women unless society is ready for it. And right now, we're not.

Why do you feel the way you do?

Because I'm a cynic and I always take the negative outlook. Making the genders equal in music is just too daunting of a task. In order to this, society will need to stop hypersexualizing and objectifying women, and that's not going to happen. The problem isn't the music industry, it's society, and society needs to change and then everything else will. Society is male-driven right now. That's why music, movies, games, and their respective industries are all dominated by men. These industries will change with society.

Do you feel that an artist like Nicki Minaj is held to a different standard than Drake (and why)?

They're not comparable. Nicki bases her whole image off of her body and sexuality. She makes that the most prominent part of her career. While their lyrics may both be equally explicit, Drake doesn't put his image first, he puts his music first, and come on, he played the fucking wheelchair kid in Degrassi. They're too different to be compared. If Drake goes shirtless and starts grinding in all of his music videos and whips his dick out, then fine maybe we could compare. 

Depending on your answers to the above, are things better or worse off than they have been in the past for women (or men)?

Yes. Women are slowly getting more airplay and are allowed to display their sexuality more. But it's not enough. And it's not going to be enough. True equality is never going to happen if society is still driven by men. It's like going from 10% to 15% as said earlier. The 50% is not going to happen. It'll top out at 25% max. I'd love to be proven wrong, but unfortunately it's not going to happen. Blame this on my negative perception on life, or whatever, but the point is that as long as society is patriachal, so will everything in it.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Everyone who's popular puts their image first.

[Green Baron]

Oct 30, 2014 19:34:44 GMT -5 Devil Marlena Nylund said:

Everyone who's popular puts their image first.

Yeah, I know, but my point is, their images are completely different. 

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Oct 30, 2014 19:37:53 GMT -5 Green Baron said:

Oct 30, 2014 19:34:44 GMT -5 Devil Marlena Nylund said:

Everyone who's popular puts their image first.

Yeah, I know, but my point is, their images are completely different. 

For sure but to say Drake doesn't put his image first wouldn't really be accurate. Men have as much of an image to upkeep as women do. A lot of the time, their image is to portray and emphasize themselves as masculine in the traditional sense. Strong, dominate, alphamale, and in some cases, womanizers.

The whole image thing comes back to the masculine vs. feminine ideals that are associated with each. Women are sensitive, shy, easily-swayed, weak. But when they aren't, they're strong and use sex as a way of control. And sometimes I wonder, does that have to be a bad thing? Sex sells and in a lot of ways, an image based on sex is what makes a female artist successful over talent, but it's something that she can control. Similarly, for male artists, image is often what sells their music too over talent. It's just that 'sex', the way we see it, is seen as cheap and demeaning whereas qualities associated with masculinity are seen as positive.
Sometimes I do wonder if it isn't so much how things are done that is bad but just how they are looked at...

As for the main discussion at hand, I agree with pretty much everyone else and I'm sure most logical people do as well. Credibility in music and male artists pretty much go hand in hand. While female performers are doing better in recent times than they used to, even outdoing their male counterparts in pop music, they still lag behind in songwriting, production, and every other aspect of the recording process.

I think it would be a fascinating story/film/documentary/etc if someone were able to come up with a scenario in which the music/movie industry were run by women or even equal between men and women. I can't help but wonder what would be different and whether it would be more successful overall than it is now. In a female-run music industry, how would the artists' images be portrayed? Would the image focus moreso on abilities and musical talent than on external factors such as looks and age? It's interesting because in theory, half of the music buying public (probably more with pop music) are women yet female artists still focus heavily on having a sexual image. So why are female artists promoted as sexually powerful women to female audiences?

Nicki vs. Drake. I think Nicki is more versatile and is a better rapper than Drake. Honestly, when Drake first emerged and quickly got super popular, I was surprised because he didn't sound impressive to me. But Drake is held in higher regard than Nicki because men are awarded more credibility than women are.

Even take into account someone like Adele. Adele's main image isn't to be a sexual woman. She's an example of someone who isn't popular because sex sells. BUT - maybe she is, just in reverse. When people think of Adele and her success, often the first thing that comes to mind is how she was able to be successful WITHOUT resorting to skimpy fashion and singing about sex. They often refer to the fact she's not a thin woman and that it's great someone like her can have massive success. Nobody says that about Sam Smith and his success. The only thing people say about him is that it's nice he can be popular despite being gay (or bi or whatever). It's never about his looks. With Adele, it still is. Because she's a woman.

I don't know if I can say whether things are better or worse for women in music now. Despite women controlling pop music, I still feel like when it comes to credibility outside of Pulse, it's still a man's world. The best producers, songwriters, musicians, men. It's easy to say that women have it better now but depending on how you look at it, I don't even think I'd say that's true. I'd probably even suggest that comparing music to movies, women have it better as a movie star in terms of respect than they do in music.

[carrieidol1]

Oct 27, 2014 12:57:10 GMT -5 @carrieflattsfan said:

No, I don't think there's equality in the industry.

Both men and women are held to a diffrent set of standards (aside from sex appeal, which both genders sell).

It seems to me that men can sell sex without question, but once a woman does, she's frequently ridiculed and called slut, w*hore, etc.


I think the issue of power lies within the power to sell, and that's obviously diffrent in every genre. Pop women are dominating; contrast that with Country, where women are only paid dust if they're Miranda or Carrie.

Ironically, though, sex is often what sells for female artists. Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Christina Aguilera, and a number of other female world superstars sell not only music, but sex appeal. I took a class a year ago called "The Sociology of Music" --- it was very interesting, and we spent a lot of time talking about this. Women are ridiculed and harassed based on the fact that their sex appeal is brought to the forefront of their music. Yet, their labels essentially force them to do so. Pop labels often give little leeway when it comes to career decisions for their artists: album covers, singles, music videos, etc... they are heavily regulated. More often than not, a label will decide on a song/video/cover with sex appeal, particularly for their female artists... It is rare that they will let their female artist release something meaningful and non-sexual. There is often criticism towards the artists for putting up with this, but where would they go? It's their career, and as sad as it is that they are forced to be hyper-sexualized, sex DOES sell. It's an incredibly blatant and unjust double-edged sword; if they are sexual, they are whores... but if they aren't sexual, they won't sell. I'm speaking loosely, here, but this is the reality for a number of female pop stars.

Just like everything else, there is a hierarchy in music. Label Presidents are pretty much all male. Most managers, directors, producers, and other music industry people are male. These men often have key roles in making career decisions for female artists; hence the hyper-sexualization of women in pop music. If you have a bunch of straight men making decisions as to what a female's music should sound like and how they should look, OF COURSE they are going to look and sound like sluts! The music industry, particularly its female artists fall victim to patriarchal practices that are infused in western and world civilization(s).

To address the thread's main points, men hold the majority of the power. When they can, they exploit their female artists through sexualizing their appearance and music. This is not to say women don't/can't make their own choices, but they are often left with very little leeway. If Britney Spears fought against the sexualization of her music, appearance, and overall brand, she probably wouldn't be the world icon she is today --- the same goes for just about every other female artist out there who is viewed as sexual/promiscuous/whorish/etc... Women are held to a much different/higher standard but are forced to basically never meet that said "standard". They could be releasing quality music, and they do here and there, but more often you get songs like "Anaconda", and "Oops, I Did it Again" (sexual video), not songs like "Beautiful" and "Firework".

When looking at this issue, one could make the case that things are getting better, I guess, but are they really? Just about every pop female video is somehow sexualized. Other than a few exceptions, there are still skimpy outfits, overdone makeup, and provocative dancing in just about every female pop video. Then you look at country music... There are only two females who consistently chart with the men of the genre: Miranda Lambert and Carrie Underwood. One could ask if this is because women aren't AS sexualized in country music? Miranda and Carrie are both hot, but the majority of their discography and videography isn't what most would consider "sexualized". It's interesting, and I think it goes to show that there are some exceptions, but in most cases, sex IS what sells for females. It's a shame, but it's true. Where the inequality lies, I think, is in the fact that it's mostly straight men who make the decisions, so while they think in sexual terms for female artists, they probably don't do so as much for male artists. This is a generalization, I know, but I think it's a fair one. You definitely have male artists whose sex appeal is exploited: Justin Timberlake and Usher come to mind, but even still, they don't perform their concerts in Magic Mike- esque attire; although they may occasionally lose a shirt here and there. Overall, though, men are not sexualized nearly as much as women, and men don't rely on it, at least as much.

The issue of beauty comes in, too, because men are under much less pressure to look a certain way. Most male artists at the forefront of pop music are considerably good looking, but they don't all look like models, by any means. Yet, if I asked everyone to come up with a list of the top ten female pop stars of the last decade, there's a good chance they'd all be magazine-cover ready (based on our socially imposed standard of beauty). I'll try it right now, off the top of my head: Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Beyonce, Rihanna, Taylor Swift, Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson, P!nk, Alicia Keys, and Mariah Carey. Those were the ten female pop stars I could come up with off the top of my head, and there is no doubt that they are all beautiful, and they all have considerable sex appeal; some more than others. Seven of them, I'd bet, have consistently shot music videos and performed concerts in less clothing than some would wear to the beach. While they may enjoy that, that kind of sexualization is somewhat engraved into what it means to be a female pop star, and I think that's incredibly sad and reinforces gender inequality across the entire music industry. It has come to the point where women essentially have to sell their appearance before their talent and music. "Hey, look! I'm naked.... and I can sing!"... Men don't have to do this, although some do - merely for fun, though. I think I'm rambling at this point, and I know I've covered a lot. But in the end, there is very little gender equality in music all around, and I don't really things are getting better at all.


Edit: Reading through the thread I realize people have already touched on the fact that the music industry is male dominated, sorry for the redundancy.