Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Feb 17, 2017 14:58:23 GMT -5
Because critical acclaim is one of the (if not the) biggest barometers in ANY industry to measure the quality of it's art. And it's written by the musical press, which is very tied to the music industry. It's why they've given early copies of albums to music critics since the very beginning. It's why record labels use it in advertising and campaigning. It's a factor and always has been. Albums are given to critics early for promotional purposes; so people know an album is out and, hopefully, hear something positive about it. If the Grammys, Oscars, Emmys, etc were about critical favorites, then critics would be allowed to vote for them. They are not, unless they are active in that field. Critical acclaim matters in award shows. Is it the deciding factor? No. But it's one of the major ones.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 17, 2017 15:03:38 GMT -5
I see it as being indirectly about race. As I've said in this thread numerous times, the majority of NARAS are recording musicians. As such they appreciate singer/songwriters and also music that isn't overly produced (i.e. if someone uses studio tricks in place of actual musicians, it puts musicians out of jobs). Hip-hop music is production-driven (i.e. about the beat and rarely uses live instruments) and as such isn't as naturally appealing to musicians. To me it's thus about the style of music more than the race of the people recording the music. I'm not sure how to explain my opinion in a different way. That makes sense, I understand your line of thinking. I just think there's racism embedded in the idea that black artists will struggle to win top awards if they continue to make music in a mostly black way (though that isn't my most eloquent turn of phrase). Also if rap isn't viewed as "art" in the same way as traditional musicianship, I think that is racist. I understand why studio musicians are hesitant and I can't blame people individually but I am of the opinion that the Grammys, or the general field in particular, is plagued with racism. I think there should be some sort of re-structuring and it's not ONLY about race. Quality, inventiveness, etc. should be valued as much as, if not more than, success on the Hot 100. I pretty much agree with all of this, I just frame it in a different context than saying it's "racist." I also think it comes back to what a previous poster said about members needing to actually vote. If there are hip-hop artists who could be members but don't join or who are members but don't vote, that isn't the fault of the Grammys. Beyond that, what specific things need to be done? Do we even have any data about the make-up of the voting body, or is everything speculation? What sort of re-structuring ideas do you have?
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Feb 17, 2017 15:17:07 GMT -5
Lauryn Hill was basically the Adele of that year. Massive critical acclaim, big album sales, hit singles, over the top hype. And yeah, she rapped, but she also had very classic R&B on that record that was far more digestable than some of Lemonade. The music was also very organic. She was viewed as basically the creator and creative mind of that entire album (although she got her ass sued later on down the line for those credits). Not to mention it was just a killer f**king album. She was viewed as an artist and singer, rather than a performer. It was kind of a perfect storm. You would think at this point that Beyoncé is more in that lane. This is the same woman that won SOTY and has 21 other Grammys. In Beyoncé's case, I think people are over the "Beyoncé is QUEEN" thing. The-Dream made perfect sense when he talked about her current support in the R&B field. The fact that they were trying to push Self-Titled and "Drunk in Love" as pop was a joke. I remember during the DC days when she was about to go solo, Matthew was trying his DAMNEDEST to brand her as a songwriter. And it just never stuck. And then the rumors of her stealing writing credits just put the kibosh on that. And she's never sold herself as a musician either. So the production credits never carried a ton of weight. She's very much a performer, there's always a ton of spectacle associated. Wasn't it Prince that said if she just learned to play the piano, she'd be unstoppable? And cynthia made a really good point earlier and I've hit on it before in her thread, she just doesn't play the game like she used to. She doesn't do a ton of press, interviews, she doesn't chase hits or album sales, she doesn't kiss radio's behind. She basically does her own thing and I think a lot of the Grammy voting body appreciate tradition and supporting all aspects of the industry. And IMO it makes her appear like she "thinks she's above" or "too good" for that kind of stuff (while every other artist is still hustling the traditional way). And let's be honest, the Beyhive does not help, haha.
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¤ Matthea ¤
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Post by ¤ Matthea ¤ on Feb 17, 2017 15:46:48 GMT -5
Grammys are not Critics' Choice Awards for music. If they were, there would be no need for nominations in album categories, they would just go to Metacritic website and then sort the albums into genres for genre album awards. The album with the highest score would automatically become the album of the year.
That's clearly not how things work. Works have to be submitted to be considered and then then the nominees and the winners are decided through several rounds of voting.
I have no doubt that rap and urban contemporary music are at a disadvantage in the general categories, but I'm certain there are few members of NARAS that would vote against their personal musical tastes just to align with the critics. In the end all voters more or less just vote for works and artists that they personally like.
I think mainstream artists also pretty much have to deliver hits and sales to even get nominated. But Beyonce decided to stop catering to pop radio after 4 era turned a bit of a flop for her in that regard. So she is now trying to serve quality and exclusivity and to many she comes off as pretentious.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 17:09:14 GMT -5
3. I don't think anyone here denies Swift being white and making commercial music is an advantage over a black artist making "urban" music. The question has been whether that is directly or indirectly about race. LMAO!!! WHAT?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 17:13:29 GMT -5
I think mainstream artists also pretty much have to deliver hits and sales to even get nominated. But Beyonce decided to stop catering to pop radio after 4 era turned a bit of a flop for her in that regard. So she is now trying to serve quality and exclusivity and to many she comes off as pretentious. Ugh. That's just so frustrating because it's the EXACT same thing that Adele serves and no one calls her pretentious at all for doing it. If this is the argument being wielded against Bey then it seriously does come down to the fact that voters in general do not respect "urban" music - and in some strange way her continued popularity is more likely to push them away than pull them in because they "just don't get it" and feel like someone is trying to force them to like it. I for one am not expecting anyone to 'like' anything, but I do expect these voters to try to approach their decisions with objectivity. E.g., A Sailor's Guide to Earth honestly didn't grab me much and I don't like it more than 25; but objectively, I believe it to be a better album than 25. Why did Sturgill not stand a chance? If he had won I don't think the discussion would be where it is right now. Something about 25 winning, despite its monstrous sales, spotlights underlying issues in a way that a Sturgill (or Justin) win would not and a Drake win would have disproven.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 17:15:00 GMT -5
How about we stop talking about Beyonce and pull the conversation back to Kendrick. Why again didn't he win?
I just think it's funny how a select few are trying so hard to make this entire discussion about Beyonce fatigue, which is a real thing, but they're completely dismissing and ignoring reasonable posts to support the suggestion that no, it's not Beyonce, it's a whole other thing. Can we re-read Cynthia's post a few pages back? Admitting there *could* be an underlying issue isn't going to make your house burn down. I'm curious to know why a select few seem to be so against the mere suggestion.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 17, 2017 17:21:48 GMT -5
No. Let's talk about Chance The Rapper's historic win LAST WEEK and how that turns racial bias and genre favoritism on its head. He won again 4 other white artists with an album you can only find on SoundCloud and other streaming services. He didn't play the game or cater to pop radio and still came out on top. No one wants to discuss that though.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 17:40:13 GMT -5
No. Let's talk about Chance The Rapper's historic win LAST WEEK and how that turns racial bias and genre favoritism on its head. He won again 4 other white artists with an album you can only find on SoundCloud and other streaming services. He didn't play the game or cater to pop radio and still came out on top. No one wants to discuss that though. One example doesn't change that. But sure, let's. 2000 Christina Aguilera Britney Spears Kid Rock Macy Gray Susan Tedeschi 2001 Shelby Lynne Brad Paisley Jill Scott Papa Roach Sisqó 2002 Alicia Keys David Gray India.Arie Linkin Park Nelly Furtado 2003 Norah Jones Ashanti Avril Lavigne John Mayer Michelle Branch 2004 Evanescence 50 Cent Fountains of Wayne Heather Headley Sean Paul 2005 Maroon 5 Gretchen Wilson Los Lonely Boys Joss Stone Kanye West 2006 John Legend Ciara Fall Out Boy Keane Sugarland 2007 Carrie Underwood Chris Brown Corinne Bailey Rae Imogen Heap James Blunt 2008 Amy Winehouse Feist Ledisi Paramore Taylor Swift 2009 Adele Duffy Jonas Brothers Jazmine Sullivan Lady Antebellum 2010 Zac Brown Band Keri Hilson MGMT Silversun Pickups The Ting Tings 2011 Esperanza Spalding Drake Florence + The Machine Justin Bieber Mumford & Sons 2012 Bon Iver J. Cole Nicki Minaj Skrillex The Band Perry 2013 fun. Alabama Shakes Hunter Hayes Frank Ocean The Lumineers 2014 Macklemore & Ryan Lewis Ed Sheeran James Blake Kacey Musgraves Kendrick Lamar 2015 Sam Smith Bastille Brandy Clark Haim Iggy Azalea 2016 Meghan Trainor Courtney Barnett James Bay Sam Hunt Tori Kelly 2017 Chance the Rapper Kelsea Ballerini The Chainsmokers Maren Morris Anderson .Paak Chance was the first black artist to win since 2011, and 4th in the 2000s after Esperanza Spalding (2011), John Legend (2006) and Alicia Keys (2002). It's interesting that Chance was actually the first black artist to even be nominated since 2014 (the year Kendrick lost to Macklemore). Interestingly, only 8 black artists have been nominated this decade out of 40 total noms. If we're looking at genre: 2000 Christina Aguilera - pop 2001 Shelby Lynne - adult alternative/country 2002 Alicia Keys - R&B 2003 Norah Jones - jazz 2004 Evanescence - rock 2005 Maroon 5 - pop/rock 2006 John Legend - R&B 2007 Carrie Underwood - country 2008 Amy Winehouse - R&B/jazz 2009 Adele - pop/adult contemporary 2010 Zac Brown Band - country 2011 Esperanza Spalding - jazz 2012 Bon Iver - indie rock 2013 fun. - pop/indie 2014 Macklemore & Ryan Lewis - rap 2015 Sam Smith - pop/adult contemporary 2016 Meghan Trainor - pop 2017 Chance the Rapper - rap So Chance is the second rap artist to win this award this decade (the other being Macklemore) so yeah, it could be said the Grammys have improved this year with this win - but this category hardly supports your point.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 17, 2017 17:46:35 GMT -5
First Macklemore is along the lines of a pop artist considering the rap committee rejected their submission but overruled by the "secret" committee. Secondly Chance is the first BLACK male to win it with NO label machine behind him. So yes my point still stands. History was made and it deserves to be acknowledged.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 17:56:45 GMT -5
"Chance was the first black artist to win since 2011, and 4th in the 2000s after Esperanza Spalding (2011), John Legend (2006) and Alicia Keys (2002). It's interesting that Chance was actually the first black artist to even be nominated since 2014 (the year Kendrick lost to Macklemore). Interestingly, only 8 black artists have been nominated this decade out of 40 total noms. "
Actually, Ten nominees for Best New Artist were black.
Keri Hilson Drake Esperanza Spalding J. Cole Nicki Minaj Alabama Shakes (the lead singer is Black!) Frank Ocean Kendrick Lamar Chance The Rapper Anderson .Paak
I'm not sure how many black people have to be nominated to prove that there isn't a race issue, but we won't go there.
Speaking specifically this year, Chance The Rapper was a bold choice since the Grammys are usually criticized for being "too traditional." There is nothing "traditional" about Chance The Rapper, his image or his music. Yeah, you can say that the Grammys have had their genre bias, but choosing to ignore them acknowledging Chance The Rapper is just nitpicking and trying to prove a point to refute the Beyoncé snubs.
But it's interesting when Esperanza Spalding - a black woman - won Best New Artist, people criticized the Grammys and even said Justin Bieber should have won. They will never ever please everyone.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 17:59:58 GMT -5
Kendrick snub, really.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:01:48 GMT -5
You keep bringing up Kendrick snub, but he was not nominated this year. And that doesn't really explain why Chance The Rapper was shown all of this love in a year where people say the Grammys are "racist." Are you implying that they only threw him a bone to prove that they weren't?
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:10:04 GMT -5
I think mainstream artists also pretty much have to deliver hits and sales to even get nominated. But Beyonce decided to stop catering to pop radio after 4 era turned a bit of a flop for her in that regard. So she is now trying to serve quality and exclusivity and to many she comes off as pretentious. Ugh. That's just so frustrating because it's the EXACT same thing that Adele serves and no one calls her pretentious at all for doing it. If this is the argument being wielded against Bey then it seriously does come down to the fact that voters in general do not respect "urban" music - and in some strange way her continued popularity is more likely to push them away than pull them in because they "just don't get it" and feel like someone is trying to force them to like it. I for one am not expecting anyone to 'like' anything, but I do expect these voters to try to approach their decisions with objectivity. E.g., A Sailor's Guide to Earth honestly didn't grab me much and I don't like it more than 25; but objectively, I believe it to be a better album than 25. Why did Sturgill not stand a chance? If he had won I don't think the discussion would be where it is right now. Something about 25 winning, despite its monstrous sales, spotlights underlying issues in a way that a Sturgill (or Justin) win would not and a Drake win would have disproven. Oh please. The backlash/conversation would have been BIGGER had Sturgill - a relatively unknown white country act - beat Beyoncé AND Adele. The only reason why it's a big discussion when it comes to Adele is because the media set it up from the beginning, and Adele acknowledged Beyoncé and Lemonade. But Sturgill would have gotten it rawer than Beck got it, simply because he's white AND relatively unknown. Had Adele not acknowledged it, people would have talked about it for a day or two, and moved on. That's why Adele should have taken her trophy and walked.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 17, 2017 18:12:59 GMT -5
3. I don't think anyone here denies Swift being white and making commercial music is an advantage over a black artist making "urban" music. The question has been whether that is directly or indirectly about race. LMAO!!! WHAT?! I've explained myself repeatedly in this thread. If you still don't understand the point (separate from whether or not you agree) then move on. Why did Sturgill not stand a chance? If he had won I don't think the discussion would be where it is right now. Something about 25 winning, despite its monstrous sales, spotlights underlying issues in a way that a Sturgill (or Justin) win would not and a Drake win would have disproven. I think for many people, Beyonce losing to anyone would be an issue. If she had lost to Simpson, I think it would be a similar discussion to the one now; it would actually be worse. With Adele people get that she's popular and has mainstream appeal. With Simpson they would say the Grammys are truly racist because they'd give it to an unknown white guy over a black person. But it's interesting when Esperanza Spalding - a black woman - won Best New Artist, people criticized the Grammys and even said Justin Bieber should have won. They will never ever please everyone. This is so true.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 17, 2017 18:15:04 GMT -5
How about we stop talking about Beyonce and pull the conversation back to Kendrick. Why again didn't he win? The same reason Simpson didn't win this year; they aren't "mainstream."
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:16:40 GMT -5
Thank you, jenglisbe. The idea that a Sturgill win would have received a softer backlash is ridiculous.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 18:21:42 GMT -5
There wasn't a ton of backlash the year Beck won against Beyonce's last album. (Other than from Kanye of course)
At this point, this discussion has run itself into the ground. I'm mostly just curious at this point as to why you few are so adamantly against the idea that maybe it *could be* race related.
And jenglisbe, I got your point about it being indirectly afterward. I actually agree with you on that. I don't think voters are necessarily racist. I think it's more about genre and less about awarding white artists over non-white artists. It still comes back to race though - albeit indirectly.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:25:16 GMT -5
Lol @ there not being a ton of backlash for Beck. He was ripped apart on Twitter and through publications that favored Beyoncé.
But it was all shut down when actual musicians and Beck fans defended his win and explained that he was a multi-instrumentalist who did most of the work on his album vs. Beyoncé and her many producers, and both had similar acclaim.
I don't even consider this whole Adele vs. Beyoncé a backlash. People are just talking things they don't know, while people are praising Adele for her "do over" and Beyoncé praise. She's going to leave unscathed. And people are still going to watch the Grammys next year and Beyoncé will still be there if nominated. lol Only the Grammys can get people riled up over nothing.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 17, 2017 18:27:19 GMT -5
So you know better than people you don't agree with? Explain how.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:28:59 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about ME vs. anyone else. I was talking about publications and posters who leave out facts to further their agenda.
But I do think I know more than you, though.
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Post by when the pawn... on Feb 17, 2017 18:40:57 GMT -5
A person with a black friend can be racist. The Grammys can give a big award to Chance the Rapper and still be racist. Racism at the Grammys doesn't mean that no black artists ever beat white artists. The point is it's very rare.
Rap is supremely influential and popular and yet it has only claimed 3 top Grammys in 18 years (OutKast, Macklemore & Ryan Lewis, Chance the Rapper). That's 3 out of 72 winners. To me, that dismissal of the genre is racist.
And one of the three was to a white artist in a genre that is probably 95% black. In fact - look at the breakdown of rap nominees in the top 4 categories since the beginning of the 21st century.
Best New Artist: 10 (8 Black; 2 White) Song of the Year: 7 (4 Black; 3 White) Record of the Year: 12 (8 Black; 4 White) Album of the Year: 15 (11 Black; 4 White)
There have been 360 general field nominees since 2000 and 44 have been rap (12% - not great). But of those 44, 13 have been for white artists. That means 30% of general field rap nominations are for white artists - that is insane, considering the makeup of rap as a genre.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 18:48:24 GMT -5
Ugh. That's just so frustrating because it's the EXACT same thing that Adele serves and no one calls her pretentious at all for doing it. If this is the argument being wielded against Bey then it seriously does come down to the fact that voters in general do not respect "urban" music - and in some strange way her continued popularity is more likely to push them away than pull them in because they "just don't get it" and feel like someone is trying to force them to like it. I for one am not expecting anyone to 'like' anything, but I do expect these voters to try to approach their decisions with objectivity. E.g., A Sailor's Guide to Earth honestly didn't grab me much and I don't like it more than 25; but objectively, I believe it to be a better album than 25. Why did Sturgill not stand a chance? If he had won I don't think the discussion would be where it is right now. Something about 25 winning, despite its monstrous sales, spotlights underlying issues in a way that a Sturgill (or Justin) win would not and a Drake win would have disproven. Oh please. The backlash/conversation would have been BIGGER had Sturgill - a relatively unknown white country act - beat Beyoncé AND Adele. The only reason why it's a big discussion when it comes to Adele is because the media set it up from the beginning, and Adele acknowledged Beyoncé and Lemonade. But Sturgill would have gotten it rawer than Beck got it, simply because he's white AND relatively unknown. Had Adele not acknowledged it, people would have talked about it for a day or two, and moved on. That's why Adele should have taken her trophy and walked. I disagree. Sturgill would have gotten the Beck treatment - Hive would have gotten in their feelings and yelled 'Who???', Beyonce haters (and haters of r&b/rap music in general) would have gone in about 'real' musicians, and Sturgill would have benefited from curiosity factor (some people would have actually checked out his album to see why he won). And some people were even eying him as a potential spoiler ahead of the show because the whole A-v-B thing was kind of fatiguing as a whole. The show felt like a foregone conclusion before it began - which in theory means no one should be surprised at what they already guessed would happen - but there was a sense of possible fatigue regarding Adele dominance as well, and people just figured she wouldn't sweep all three major awards. That she did heightens the emotions here. Had Beyonce won ROTY and/or SOTY, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Had Adele lost any of the three major categories (with Bey winning none of them), we'd probably have this conversation to start but it would die fairly quickly because it would be more obvious that Beyonce just isn't liked (since the voters went out of their way to award different people). I don't know about you but I HATE feeling like someone is just handing me something instead of having earned it; it ironically makes you question your own qualifications when you realize that no one was actually taking your efforts into account. I feel like this is the reason why most white people don't like being told they have white privilege, b/c they either think they're being told they didn't really earn/deserve what they have or because the realization of the privilege makes them start wondering if they're unfairly taking a more deserved person's spot somehow. So imagine how awkward it must be to have voted for Beyonce - not just because Adele loves her but because of what she thought Lemonade represented for black women or black people as a whole - and then to be the one person awarded all the big awards. You obviously disagree with Adele on this, but Adele was overwhelmed in that moment with what felt like a huge show of white privilege. She was put in a shitty position where she felt like she was being given something she didn't deserve. Had Adele lost anything, she might not have felt so awkward or inclined to immediately speak out about it or snap her award in half in an attempt to 'fix' the situation.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:51:06 GMT -5
A person with a black friend can be racist. The Grammys can give a big award to Chance the Rapper and still be racist. Racism at the Grammys doesn't mean that no black artists ever beat white artists. The point is it's very rare. Rap is supremely influential and popular and yet it has only claimed 3 top Grammys in 18 years (OutKast, Macklemore & Ryan Lewis, Chance the Rapper). That's 3 out of 72 winners. To me, that dismissal of the genre is racist. And one of the three was to a white artist in a genre that is probably 95% black. In fact - look at the breakdown of rap nominees in the top 4 categories since the beginning of the 21st century. Best New Artist: 10 (8 Black; 2 White) Song of the Year: 7 (4 Black; 3 White) Record of the Year: 12 (8 Black; 4 White) Album of the Year: 15 (11 Black; 4 White) There have been 360 general field nominees since 2000 and 44 have been rap (12% - not great). But of those 44, 13 have been for white artists. That means 30% of general field rap nominations are for white artists - that is insane, considering the makeup of rap as a genre. I don't necessarily think it's just white people voting against rap acts. I think it's more groups than that. Jimmy Jam made a joke at this year's Grammy pre-ceremony. He said something in line of "Best Song with Many Writers." Deep down, I think this is how most people outside of Hip Hop feels, and that includes some R&B and Gospel folks, who are much more safer with their music. While I see someone like Quincy Jones liking Kendrick Lamar, I don't necessarily see him voting for Drake or 50 Cent. I think Chance The Rapper was able to overcome that bias because of his story - a young Hip Hop artist, who had courage to turn down several record labels and decided to release his album to only streaming sites. It helps that Chance knew how to campaign for his win. Artists shouldn't have to do that, but award shows in general are just like that. I think musicians still feel that Rap music is too reliant on features, many songwriters and samples, so it will be hard to influence someone like Bruce Springsteen or even Herbie Hancock to vote for it. But Chance winning Best New Artist was pretty monumental. Something that should have happened with Kendrick Lamar. Funnily enough, if AOTY goes to any rapper now, I think it would be him.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 17, 2017 18:54:47 GMT -5
I don't quite understand the racism talk in this thread.
Indirect? Yes, kind of. Direct? No.
Now, there is clearly a bias toward urban music; however, I do not understand the racism relating to this (there is not an argument due to those who choose to do urban music and not awarded in General Fields, that it is not racism to me). We all know the Grammy has had a quite bias throughout the years in several areas of giving awards in different genres. There have been such a change on how these awards are giving out too.
I remember when people would complain that the Grammy should award those who have the highest sales and etc. because many unknown (or older acts) would get awarded in GF fields. Now the Grammy is doing that yet the critics said this album was the best is the talk, I just don't understand. There should be a balance, yes and no, I believe. Realistically, the Grammy is giving awards to what the public feels is best. In regards, this year, Adele was the people choice, album sales said it all. Yes, Beyonce got all of this talk, but that was still execution instead of a "must" for most.
However, I would say that I do dislike when someone who is not particularly black does black music and is awarded a GF win, now that makes it questionable for me. And we have seen that this decade; however, racism is a no to me, but bias is a yes for me.
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magik
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Post by magik on Feb 17, 2017 18:57:15 GMT -5
Oh please. The backlash/conversation would have been BIGGER had Sturgill - a relatively unknown white country act - beat Beyoncé AND Adele. The only reason why it's a big discussion when it comes to Adele is because the media set it up from the beginning, and Adele acknowledged Beyoncé and Lemonade. But Sturgill would have gotten it rawer than Beck got it, simply because he's white AND relatively unknown. Had Adele not acknowledged it, people would have talked about it for a day or two, and moved on. That's why Adele should have taken her trophy and walked. She was put in a s**tty position where she felt like she was being given something she didn't deserve. Had Adele lost anything, she might not have felt so awkward or inclined to immediately speak out about it or snap her award in half in an attempt to 'fix' the situation. You can certainly feel that way, and I won't say that I disagree. But she was put in awkward situation from the get-go. The media is what made this Bey vs. Adele thing come to fruition. Adele wasn't even the second most nominated artist, yet the media kept making it a "Adele vs. Beyoncé" race. Articles were being made in Beyoncé's favor and against Adele long before the winner was revealed, and I'm sure Beyoncé and Adele are aware of this. Apart of me thinks that's why Adele spoke so highly of Beyoncé. I blame the media a lot for the race-baiting.
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Rican@
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Post by Rican@ on Feb 17, 2017 19:02:04 GMT -5
A person with a black friend can be racist. The Grammys can give a big award to Chance the Rapper and still be racist. Racism at the Grammys doesn't mean that no black artists ever beat white artists. The point is it's very rare. Rap is supremely influential and popular and yet it has only claimed 3 top Grammys in 18 years (OutKast, Macklemore & Ryan Lewis, Chance the Rapper). That's 3 out of 72 winners. To me, that dismissal of the genre is racist. And one of the three was to a white artist in a genre that is probably 95% black. In fact - look at the breakdown of rap nominees in the top 4 categories since the beginning of the 21st century. Best New Artist: 10 (8 Black; 2 White) Song of the Year: 7 (4 Black; 3 White) Record of the Year: 12 (8 Black; 4 White) Album of the Year: 15 (11 Black; 4 White) There have been 360 general field nominees since 2000 and 44 have been rap (12% - not great). But of those 44, 13 have been for white artists. That means 30% of general field rap nominations are for white artists - that is insane, considering the makeup of rap as a genre. I don't necessarily think it's just white people voting against rap acts. I think it's more groups than that. Jimmy Jam made a joke at this year's Grammy pre-ceremony. He said something in line of "Best Song with Many Writers." Deep down, I think this is how most people outside of Hip Hop feels, and that includes some R&B and Gospel folks, who are much more safer with their music. While I see someone like Quincy Jones liking Kendrick Lamar, I don't necessarily see him voting for Drake or 50 Cent. I think Chance The Rapper was able to overcome that bias because of his story - a young Hip Hop artist, who had courage to turn down several record labels and decided to release his album to only streaming sites. It helps that Chance knew how to campaign for his win. Artists shouldn't have to do that, but award shows in general are just like that. I think musicians still feel that Rap music is too reliant on features, many songwriters and samples, so it will be hard to influence someone like Bruce Springsteen or even Herbie Hancock to vote for it. But Chance winning Best New Artist was pretty monumental. Something that should have happened with Kendrick Lamar. Funnily enough, if AOTY goes to any rapper now, I think it would be him. I agree with you. The too many writers, producers and samples do not help some urban acts, I'm personally fine with that if those who choose to not to reward them. That why I was never on the Kanye's bandwagon because yes, it can be creative when you take someone else work and create your own within it; however, let me see what you can do without any backing of someone's else work. In regards of how the Grammy has changed in the GF and how pretty much everyone in those fields get awarded, I could see the committee would be hesitant to award someone who has a long list of writers and producers. The Grammy looks like it is just giving any and everyone an award because the name was on the list.
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Feb 17, 2017 19:14:35 GMT -5
So you know better than people you don't agree with? Explain how. Because "REAL MUSIC!!11!1!!!" There have been some great points brought up over the past several pages. I'm just going to move this over here from before the show was held. Do we know actually something about the Grammy? Beyonce won 21 grammies. Same amount for Kanye and he must be the most offensive, controversial artist ever! Adele gets more attention when it comes to Grammy because she wins in the big categories, which are voted by the voters from all genres! You need to accept that Adele is objectively better than most black/white/male/female/controversial/inoffensive/whatsoever artists and that's about it. Talent always ended up winning this is why the Grammy are the freaking Grammy LMAO @ all of this. The topics at discussion have all been brought up before, and have other prior examples as well. If you take the Grammys as the be and end all, good for you I guess, but you are living up your own ass. Award shows are political by definition and construction, if you think the majority is about "deserving" anything, you seriously need to grow up and dump that brain of a 15-year old you've had rotting up there for years. I meant to post this after @antigonerising brought up Kendrick and Taylor last year, but a few days before that show, I distinctly recall reading one of the prediction columns somewhere, and the individual talking said that they expected Taylor to win despite Kendrick's being more impressive objectively. They said that it was not only because of the music, but also what the artist had done for the industry and Recording Academy. This was still when Taylor's Spotify holdoff seemed more daring than it actually was, and it was taken as a way of standing up for what artists should be paid. Taylor came to do showcases for the people who would be voting. Kendrick made a video about Compton for his nominations (not the King Kunta video, the specific Grammy one). Which do you think aligned more with the interests of the voters? There have been good points from different sides, but I think jenglisbe hit a big nail on the head by saying that the Grammys, like all award shows, are political and intrinsically geared to satisfy the desires of whoever makes up the deciding body. Are there going to be overlaps to certain point? Sure, but not all the way through. This isn't a Critics Award, just as it isn't an award by the Public-at-large. Sometimes it lines up more one way and more the other, and one of the biggest needle movers is what appeals more to the personal interests of the voters. Is there Beyonce fatigue? Maybe, but I don't think it's as much that as it is what she's pushing resonating that much with who actually makes up the Grammy committee. The majority of the issues making up Lemonade weren't geared for that crowd. 25 was. Right down to the Barbra Streisand vibes. Remember the 5-star review from the increasingly senile Rolling Stone Magazine? Personally, I think that Matthew is still something of a dark cloud over her in that specific group, but that's a lesser point. People try to be super gung-ho and idealistic overtime this stuff, or increasingly anything that may be considered "sensitive" comes up, but it's just the underside of human nature. People are more into what they like, and what makes direct and indirect appeals to them. When Adele was going with 21, everyone tried to debate whether her appearance had anything to do with the phenomenon. Well duh! You think in 30 million people who bought the album, there wouldn't have been some girl, who was never going to be the first one the guys asked out, who would never have Gaga's ass, or Katy's bust, giggling at her success with her four chins while reaching for another bag of Pork Rinds? Come on! You're smarter than that!
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Feb 17, 2017 19:46:58 GMT -5
Reading through the last couple of pages, it seems like Beyonce vs. Adele kind of derailed this entire conversation, haha. I mean, that second to last lyric in "Formation" speaks volumes.
I think everyone can agree on some key points. That the Grammy voting body doesn't always award or even nominate the best songs/albums for their categories. That there are many criteria that move votes beyond just quality of the music. And that there is a bias against genre based artists in the face of more mainstream, commercial material.
So what are we disagreeing on again? I think these are all fairly obvious points and we just keep tripping over the details over and over again.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 17, 2017 20:00:06 GMT -5
And one of the three was to a white artist in a genre that is probably 95% black. In fact - look at the breakdown of rap nominees in the top 4 categories since the beginning of the 21st century. Best New Artist: 10 (8 Black; 2 White) Song of the Year: 7 (4 Black; 3 White) Record of the Year: 12 (8 Black; 4 White) Album of the Year: 15 (11 Black; 4 White) There have been 360 general field nominees since 2000 and 44 have been rap (12% - not great). But of those 44, 13 have been for white artists. That means 30% of general field rap nominations are for white artists - that is insane, considering the makeup of rap as a genre. What are the same stats for country music?
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