jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 17, 2017 20:04:23 GMT -5
I think musicians still feel that Rap music is too reliant on features, many songwriters and samples, so it will be hard to influence someone like Bruce Springsteen or even Herbie Hancock to vote for it. Good point, and one that gets back to what I have been saying about someone like Beyonce not being viewed as an artist. Now, there is clearly a bias toward urban music; however, I do not understand the racism relating to this (there is not an argument due to those who choose to do urban music and not awarded in General Fields, that it is not racism to me). We all know the Grammy has had a quite bias throughout the years in several areas of giving awards in different genres. There have been such a change on how these awards are giving out too. Yeah it's not like white rapper Eminem has won a major Grammy. A lot of people thought Macklemore & Lewis would win SOTY because of the context, but they didn't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:42:15 GMT -5
She was put in a s**tty position where she felt like she was being given something she didn't deserve. Had Adele lost anything, she might not have felt so awkward or inclined to immediately speak out about it or snap her award in half in an attempt to 'fix' the situation. You can certainly feel that way, and I won't say that I disagree. But she was put in awkward situation from the get-go. The media is what made this Bey vs. Adele thing come to fruition. Adele wasn't even the second most nominated artist, yet the media kept making it a "Adele vs. BeyoncΓ©" race. Articles were being made in BeyoncΓ©'s favor and against Adele long before the winner was revealed, and I'm sure BeyoncΓ© and Adele are aware of this. Apart of me thinks that's why Adele spoke so highly of BeyoncΓ©. I blame the media a lot for the race-baiting. Media hype definitely gasses things up, I agree with that. In fairness to the bolded, if there is any rap or r&b artist who has a banner year it's not really possible for pop artists to rack up the most nominations, especially after the Grammys revamped the categories and got rid of the gender divisions. Five or six is a big deal for pop artists because it almost necessarily means they got nominated across the board in SOTY/ROTY/AOTY. R&b and rap artists OTOH could theoretically score (and win) five or six categories without even touching the majors because they have more categories to be nominated in and are more likely to collaborate with others, thus scoring nominations via other people's songs. Kanye has lost to himself three or four times now. And people forget that Kendrick was last year's biggest winner that way (he swept the four rap categories and then won best short form video for his feature on Bad Blood), which just says a lot about how much people really value the big enchilada when it all comes down to it. I guess the most important question is one that no one has really asked yet...if one thinks there's a problematic bias with the major categories, should we view that as 'cheapening' the genre category awards by proxy or should we just accept that the [insert genre] categories are our chance to reward our own and maybe not worry so much about what 'outsiders' think when it's time to vote in one big pool? If the Grammys could promise not to override committee decisions again like they did for Macklemore that one time, I'd be fine going with the latter. It's easier on the blood pressure if you tell yourself that a rap artist really shouldn't give two figs what country and rock voters think of his album.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:48:32 GMT -5
Tbh I was more upset that a true meaningful artist like Kendrick Lamar who is genuine and gifted lost to Taylor Swift. Now that is outrageous.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:58:34 GMT -5
So what are we disagreeing on again? I think these are all fairly obvious points and we just keep tripping over the details over and over again. I think we're disagreeing on what to disagree on lmao The original disagreement for some of us was over whether or not race and/or genre bias is the predominant reason for Lemonade's loss, which naturally means we had to disagree on whether or not 25/Lemonade was even that good, but because of that some people think the disagreement starts with whether or not there is Beyonce fatigue, which goes back to the disagreement over race - but in a different way because why aren't people fatigued with [insert white pop singer here] - which turned into "but the fatigue is coming from her own people!!!" which then turned into "but what's that got to do with white people's reasons though!!!" and I swear to God I tried to take a detour by bemoaning the snub of Anti and questioning label politics but people weren't ready to finish disagreeing about fatigue yet and then we almost made our way back to where we started but then we had to disagree one more time on whether or not 25/Lemonade was even that good...
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musicfan134
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Post by musicfan134 on Feb 18, 2017 0:40:52 GMT -5
I think it's sad that Adele released THE most successful album of the year--a record breaking comeback that was one of the most monumental events in music within the eligibility period--and won AOTY for it, and yet is being criticized. Regardless of whether the Grammy's are racist or not, regardless of whether Beyonce deserved the award or not, no one can argue that Adele was completely undeserving of Album of the Year this year. I think it's sad that her win will always be looked at in a "Beyonce should have won" perspective because Adele worked hard on her album just like everyone else did, and was certainly deserving of the achievement.
I don't know whether the Grammy's are racist or not. I don't know whether it's a personal vendetta against Beyonce. I don't know because a) I'm not privy to insider Grammy knowledge and b) I am biased in that I am the furthest thing from a Beyonce fan. But what I will say is all of this discussion and speculation about AOTY is taking away from Adele's achievement, and she did earn this award. Anyone who argues that Adele was completely undeserving of AOTY is kidding themselves, regardless of your opinion on which album was "best".
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Linnethia Monique
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π£ NOW GET YOUR BOOTS AND YOUR COAT FOR THIS...
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Feb 18, 2017 0:52:53 GMT -5
I want to congratulate the Grammys for introducing me to two obsessions, Kacey Musgraves, and now Maren Morris. I've been to three Kacey shows since she blew me away with her subtle performance of "Follow Your Arrow" at the 2013 (53rd) Grammy Awards. I've been a fan of Brandy Clarke as well since her 2015 nominations after the good Country forum people shot me recommendations after a slight ignorant statement on my part.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on Feb 18, 2017 5:06:35 GMT -5
I think it's sad that Adele released THE most successful album of the year--a record breaking comeback that was one of the most monumental events in music within the eligibility period--and won AOTY for it, and yet is being criticized. Regardless of whether the Grammy's are racist or not, regardless of whether Beyonce deserved the award or not, no one can argue that Adele was completely undeserving of Album of the Year this year. I think it's sad that her win will always be looked at in a "Beyonce should have won" perspective because Adele worked hard on her album just like everyone else did, and was certainly deserving of the achievement. I don't know whether the Grammy's are racist or not. I don't know whether it's a personal vendetta against Beyonce. I don't know because a) I'm not privy to insider Grammy knowledge and b) I am biased in that I am the furthest thing from a Beyonce fan. But what I will say is all of this discussion and speculation about AOTY is taking away from Adele's achievement, and she did earn this award. Anyone who argues that Adele was completely undeserving of AOTY is kidding themselves, regardless of your opinion on which album was "best". Nobody is criticizing Adele.
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Juanca
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Enjoying work, family/personal life with partner and doggies, and music. I couldn't ask for more :)
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Post by Juanca on Feb 18, 2017 9:46:28 GMT -5
Finally finished reading this thread :) so I'll share a few comments. I love both albums tbh. I prefer pop over urban, but I thought Lemonade was an eclectic, powerful, adventurous album that was also a big event. At the same time, I loved 25. I've cried more to that album, with three songs whose lyrics hit me hard on first listen. I would've loved to see BeyoncΓ© get a video award. I would be been fine with her best album win as well. But I'm not upset at Adele's win nor I think it's racist. I do agree there's genre basis. I just think BeyoncΓ© is not the best case of that as she has a lot of Grammy support.
On the latter point, a couple of demonstrations: the unfair, ridiculous fact that Halo was nominated two years in a row for Best Female POP Vocal Performance. I'm sure there were other artists deserving of a nomination instead of having a live version of a song that had already won (!) Another pointer is having BeyoncΓ© nominated in the Rock category this year. I do like her collaboration with Jack White, but there were several rock songs as good or better than that one that lost a nomination in a genre that could benefit new or more obscure acts than freaking BeyoncΓ©.
I'd like to also emphasize the genre basis vs racism. I think that for several reasons, urban type of music is less favored by Grammys than others... but urban is more favored than others. How many dance/electronic acts, songs or albums have been nominated or won in general categories? Ever? Skrillex and Chainsmokers are the only nominees of late. How about acts like Moby or Avicii? One could say that Daft Punk only achieved this thanks to Pharrell. Even worse, how about the Latins?? Even at the peak of the Latin invasion, little love was given to them. Legendary Santana was finally recipient of big Grammy wins --with lot of help from Rob Thomas though. I won't play the racist card here though. I think it's a matter of genre (okay language too, which I guess also led to the creation of Latin Grammys).
It'd be great to have more genres being recognized for sure. Chance's win is a good step toward that. Better voting mechanisms should be helpful as many have mentioned already.
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Feb 19, 2017 14:24:01 GMT -5
Sorta off topic but Fountains of Wayne were up for BNA award in 2004? HOW?
They had a hit in 1996
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 19, 2017 14:50:25 GMT -5
Sorta off topic but Fountains of Wayne were up for BNA award in 2004? HOW? They had a hit in 1996 What hit did they have in 1996? Anyway the Grammy rules for Best New Artist has been ever-changing. In a general sense Fountains of Wayne hit mainstream consciousness with "Stacy's Mom" in late 2003, which is what led to the Best New Artist nomination.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Feb 19, 2017 15:20:26 GMT -5
Are you talking about that song by the (fictional group) The Wonders? That Thing You Do? I didn't realize they wrote that song but I don't think they performed it too.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 19, 2017 15:38:34 GMT -5
Are you talking about that song by the (fictional group) The Wonders? That Thing You Do? I didn't realize they wrote that song but I don't think they performed it too. I don't think the entire group FOW was involved with the song; just one member.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 19, 2017 20:04:04 GMT -5
I'd like to also emphasize the genre basis vs racism. I think that for several reasons, urban type of music is less favored by Grammys than others... but urban is more favored than others. How many dance/electronic acts, songs or albums have been nominated or won in general categories? Ever? Skrillex and Chainsmokers are the only nominees of late. How about acts like Moby or Avicii? One could say that Daft Punk only achieved this thanks to Pharrell. Even worse, how about the Latins?? Even at the peak of the Latin invasion, little love was given to them. Legendary Santana was finally recipient of big Grammy wins --with lot of help from Rob Thomas though. I won't play the racist card here though. I think it's a matter of genre (okay language too, which I guess also led to the creation of Latin Grammys). Good point. And let's remember that in the 90s and 00s, 'alternative' acts weren't winning Album Of The Year despite critical raves and commercial success. Artists like Nirvana, R.E.M, Radiohead, White Stripes, and even Beck had albums received similarly to Kendrick, Beyonce, etc. and never won the top award. I don't think any of them even got nominated in Record of the Year or Song of the Year did they? I think we can all agree on this point!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 20:20:06 GMT -5
See you argumentative bitches in the 2o18 Grammy thread when they do some more fuckery shit!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 21:34:10 GMT -5
No. Let's talk about Chance The Rapper's historic win LAST WEEK and how that turns racial bias and genre favoritism on its head. He won again 4 other white artists with an album you can only find on SoundCloud and other streaming services. He didn't play the game or cater to pop radio and still came out on top. No one wants to discuss that though. Somehow I missed this but I think - not to dismiss Chance's win b/c I was rooting for him or Maren to take it - honestly there's just never been a lot of fuss raised over the BNA track record. It's technically one of the 'Big 4' awards but in reality people don't really check for it that hard. I think that is in large part because of the supposed curse that the win carries, which diminishes the honor of the award a bit. If we stick with lumping r&b and hip-hop (and maybe even jazz, if you consider Esperanza's win in 2013) together the way we have been with AOTY when looking at the potential race/genre bias, his win doesn't stand out but if we treat those genres all as unique then he's the first pure hip-hop act to win the award, and that is pretty special. (Lauryn was placed in the r&b categories, and yes I'm shading Macklemore by not considering him hip-hop idc idc). Nonetheless, BNA has an overall more diverse set of winners, so it just didn't jump out to most people as a unique triumph.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on Feb 20, 2017 2:32:05 GMT -5
No. Let's talk about Chance The Rapper's historic win LAST WEEK and how that turns racial bias and genre favoritism on its head. He won again 4 other white artists with an album you can only find on SoundCloud and other streaming services. He didn't play the game or cater to pop radio and still came out on top. No one wants to discuss that though. You're right! Racism is dead! We did it, everybody!
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Feb 20, 2017 2:47:43 GMT -5
Are you talking about that song by the (fictional group) The Wonders? That Thing You Do? I didn't realize they wrote that song but I don't think they performed it too. It was credited to them in Joel Whitburn's book.. but that might explain it with the Grammys
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 18:52:40 GMT -5
No. Let's talk about Chance The Rapper's historic win LAST WEEK and how that turns racial bias and genre favoritism on its head. He won again 4 other white artists with an album you can only find on SoundCloud and other streaming services. He didn't play the game or cater to pop radio and still came out on top. No one wants to discuss that though. You're right! Racism is dead! We did it, everybody! I was not going to comment because I know he didn't mean it that way but amen sis. If we praise the exceptions and pretend it's fine then it will stay the same ie one off black president means racism is dead. Hell this is rooted more than in petty award shows, it's about opportunity in general in film, music for black entertainers (hell people of color everywhere) is it just about race? No but race is indirect consequential action of mainstream bias. Adele is sweet and Adele is talented and deserves everything but let's not act as if Jazmine Sullivan whose voice I actually prefer sang "Hello" she would get one fraction of the success and praise and be able to win s**t. Why is that? Is it just on race ? Probably not but it's still rooted in the unfairness of the homogeneous mainstream bias and that goes beyond color lines as we saw when Beyonce got in heat for taking Ledisi song and singing it because she was the more mainstream viable option. Life is unfair and will remain that way so this s**t will keep popping of because even if you take race out it there will always be shallow reasons why one person deserves something over another person even if they don't really deserve it.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 20, 2017 20:14:57 GMT -5
You're right! Racism is dead! We did it, everybody! I was not going to comment because I know he didn't mean it that way but amen sis. If we praise the exceptions and pretend it's fine then it will stay the same ie one off black president means racism is dead. Hell this is rooted more than in petty award shows, it's about opportunity in general in film, music for black entertainers (hell people of color everywhere) is it just about race? No but race is indirect consequential action of mainstream bias. Adele is sweet and Adele is talented and deserves everything but let's not act as if Jazmine Sullivan whose voice I actually prefer sang "Hello" she would get one fraction of the success and praise and be able to win s**t. Why is that? Is it just on race ? Probably not but it's still rooted in the unfairness of the homogeneous mainstream bias and that goes beyond color lines as we saw when Beyonce got in heat for taking Ledisi song and singing it because she was the more mainstream viable option. Life is unfair and will remain that way so this s**t will keep popping of because even if you take race out it there will always be shallow reasons why one person deserves something over another person even if they don't really deserve it. You make very accurate points, IMO, but out of that the issue is more with the industry than with the Grammys (and more with "Hollywood" than with the Oscars). The Grammys are a symptom/result, not the actual issue, yet it's only when the Grammys come around that people seem to get upset. The work for change needs to be done in June and in October and so on.
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