Normi
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Post by Normi on Feb 7, 2018 0:46:58 GMT -5
Y'all know there is only one female that'll never flop, the rest is fading soon enough
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rickroller
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Post by rickroller on Feb 7, 2018 3:42:14 GMT -5
Y'all know there is only one female that'll never flop, the rest is fading soon enough I had a feeling, that Adele would tank too..
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Post by neverduplicated on Feb 7, 2018 10:16:26 GMT -5
I know people are comparing Reputation's success with Taylor's previous successes when they use the word "flop," but I feel that in no universe can this era possibly be considered a flop. Calling something a flop implies it never really had it's moment to shine. This album has been very successful - 4 weeks at #1 in the US, 11 weeks in the top 10, 3x platinum, a #1 single, one of the biggest tours of all time on its way, critical acclaim, decent international success, and all the while with virtually no promotion from the artist. Where's the flop stats? Sure singles 2 and 3 did not connect or take off in a big way, but I think this era has still been huge though probably short-lived, especially when you look at someone like JT not even able to open with 300k when he had the biggest promotional opportunity possible. From all the evidence Tay Tay is still having the most success of any female pop stars after Adele and perhaps Rihanna, and it shocks me to see people using the word "flop" or "tank" to describe this era.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Feb 7, 2018 10:57:10 GMT -5
Can we just end this conversation with this Both T Swift & Katy are flopping equally hard in comparison to their previous eras, let that the end game to this For the THOUSANDTH time: You can’t compare the two, because Katy Perry ACTUALLY flopped. In pretty much every sense, except I’m sure the tour, Witness is a flop. None of these asterisk “compared the previous era”s. You can’t try to have both eras be a common denominator when they’re on COMPLETELY different playing fields. Just get over it already, jesus, Reputation is not the flop of Witness.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Feb 7, 2018 11:36:18 GMT -5
Taylor had the biggest #1 debut of the year and was completely purged weeks later. That's a TOTAL bomb. Her singles have been performing modest at best, and her tour is not a sold out success. At least Katy is filling up her dates but Taylor had thousands of seats left. Both artists flopped but neither will suffer long term.
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theflying
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Post by theflying on Feb 7, 2018 12:55:09 GMT -5
Whoever said Delicate was a redeemed prostitute anthem 😭😭😭
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alestevens
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Post by alestevens on Feb 7, 2018 13:17:45 GMT -5
Taylor had the biggest #1 debut of the year and was completely purged weeks later. That's a TOTAL bomb. Her singles have been performing modest at best, and her tour is not a sold out success. At least Katy is filling up her dates but Taylor had thousands of seats left. Both artists flopped but neither will suffer long term. Besides Adele literally no one else has outsold Reputation since the release of 1989. So either Taylor was a major success or everyone except Adele is a flop. And Katy was playing to less than 10K on several of her arena dates. Most of Taylor's dates are around 85% sold except that she's playing 50K venues and the tour doesnt start for another 3 months. Not to mention that Taylor's is expected to become the highest grossing female tour of the decade!
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deepston
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Post by deepston on Feb 7, 2018 14:20:02 GMT -5
Codex and Eloqueen™ can you guys just f**k already and get it over with??? the sexual tension is too much to take. What no, this was just getting good. Seriously, Codex isn't even trolling. This era has performed poorly and there is no way to deny this. All the singles so far had lackluster performances on radio. The lead single dropped like a rock after reaching #1 on Pop radio. The album is out of the top 10 and while it sold a ton, stalling around 2m sales is not exactly good for a Taylor album. Overall this is performing just fine but just fine is terrible for Taylor's standards. Honestly the only things she got going for her are her album's sales and streaming numbers and her tour which is great for a popstar like her. The thing is stans always want to see her diva smashing so for me, the singles performance was completely underwhelming. We can compare the single's performance to Katy's. Their performance was very similar even though Taylor achieved higher peaks. I'd be completely down for a Taylor and Katy feature.
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Feb 7, 2018 14:36:55 GMT -5
Ready for It was comparable to Chained to the Rhythm, but other than that Katy has done much worse. End Game was easily bigger than either BA or SS, and let's not bring 3-week #1 LWYMMD into the table because then it gets much worse for Katy.
That said, yeah, they need to reevaluate their path for the next era. I would say their usual playbook won't work anymore, but she didn't promote this one as hard as any of the previous ones.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 16:17:48 GMT -5
I think some common ground would be to say that the album did as well as it could with the singles doing some minor flopping. None of the numbers here indicate a "flop", just a disappointment for Taylor as well as an indicator that she's not untouchable and will have to do something her next era to prevent any further decline.
Katy legit flopped and, worst of all, it seems like very few care. Like, not even a fun, Glitter-esque flop -- she flopped the flop.
But tbh both ladies have more money than any of us can ever imagine and could retire tomorrow if they wanted to, so at the end of the day they win.
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Feb 7, 2018 17:32:31 GMT -5
Don't feed the admitted troll. =) SpotifyFeels - 441 million LWYMMD - 309 million Chained - 225 million Swish Swish - 142 million RFI - 109 million Bon Appetit - 81 million End Game - 56 million I’m not the one trying to drag Katy when her era performed similar worldwide in terms of single success. Facts aren’t trolling =) Point is, Taylor is not “beneath” a Katy feature, and would probably benefit from it. End Game's been on Spotify for 2 months vs 12 months for Chained so I'm not sure I understand the point of this comparison. Also I think your stats exclude streamed gained while outside Spotify's charts so total streams for some songs (both Taylor and Katy's) are often much higher. Average daily streams since time of release LWYMMD: 1,890,000 Feels: 1,880,000 IDWLF: 1,530,000 RFI: 950,000 End Game: 880,000 Chained: 860,000 Swish Swish: 680,000 Bon Appetit: 440,000 To be fair, you would expect newer songs to have more streams per day, so this doesn't necessarily mean that much, but, if you look at individual matchups, you can see how many streams per day would be needed going forward to get the same amount of streams in the same time period IDWLF vs Feels, both songs that only feature Katy/Taylor. IDWLF is actually still getting more streams per day despite being older. 652m in 425 days... in order to get that many streams in 425 days, Feels would need: Average of 1,100,000 streams per day over the next 188 days (currently getting about 610,000/day) Winner: Taylor (& ZAYN) LWYMMD vs Chained, Look is half as hold and already has more streams, and is still getting more per day. Winner: Taylor Swish Swish vs RFI, in order to get 180m streams over 264 days, RFI would need: Average of 290,000 streams per day over the next 107 days (currently getting about 500,000/day but dropping) Winner: not sure but odds probably still in Taylor's favour Bon Appetit vs End Game, in order to get 126m streams over 284 days, End Game would need: Average of 310,000 streams per day over the next 216 days (currently getting about 900,000/day but dropping) Winner: not sure but odds most likely in Taylor's favour Not to mention the least streamed track on Reputation (So It Goes...) has been streamed more often than all the album tracks on Witness (that have been out 4x as long) as well as Hey Hey Hey and Gorgeous has been streamed more often than the combined streams for all of Witness' non-singles. I'd say the future single potential for Taylor is still decent, her next ones should definitely still do better than Hey Hey Hey. Also pop chart peaks Katy: 8, 33, 38 Taylor: 1, 10, 12 Hot 100 peaks Katy: 4, 46, 59 Taylor: 1, 4, 18 (+13 for Gorgeous) I don't object to the idea of Katy and Taylor putting their feud behind them and doing some sort of collab, but I wouldn't force and do it if it doesn't add anything to the song musically. Male + Female vocals or rap + singing seems to work well for features but I'm not sure what Katy would add.
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wjr15
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Post by wjr15 on Feb 7, 2018 21:34:26 GMT -5
Reputation isn’t a flop but it is underperforming compared to her last era. She still is doing better than some of the other pop divas but a lot of the veteran female pop stars are struggling
Like codex said: Reputation is doing worse than 1989 Witness is doing worse than Prism Joanne is doing worse than Artpop Beautiful Trauma is doing worse than The Truth About Love Rainbow is doing worse than Warrior
Rihanna seems to be the only veteran who can still dominate the charts. It seems like pop radio is moving onto a new set of female pop singers (Halsey, Camila Cabello, Dua Lipa). That doesn’t mean these veteran pop stars won’t be getting hits again (all of these veterans can still get hits in the future), it’s just not gonna come as easy as before.
Taylor will be fine. She won’t have another 1989 era but she will still get hits in the future. For the reputation era, the fourth single will be do or die for this era on radio.
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Post by ificanthaveyou on Feb 7, 2018 23:00:53 GMT -5
I get the public disconnect, but I'm so surprised CHR is giving her the cold shoulder this era. I wonder what happened there. Let's be honest, I've seen really bad songs pushed to #1 by radio programmers.
End Game is literally taylormade for pop radio. Ed Sheehan is red hot this year too.
From what I've noticed on social media though , it's kinda "cool" to hate on Taylor right now. The teens and young adults are making her the butt of a lot of jokes and memes. At this point you either love or hate her. Not too many people on the fence left, her casual fans took a side.
It surprises me though. I think this album is on par with 1989 in terms of radio friendliness. I think her biggest mistake was packaging this as a revenge album. She should have done it more subletly or taken the high road all together. Although I think LWYMMD is so iconic, her poking fun at her haters did her no favors either. Came off petty to some.
At this point it'll be interesting to see if anything hits hard. They seem to be pouring money into these without much success, at least for the last two. Get your mojo back Taylor!
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Feb 7, 2018 23:05:06 GMT -5
Witness hasn't cleared 510k stateside to be at 30% of Prism's 1.7 million US total. So, no,they aren't all at comparatively the same level.
"Feels" isn't even a part of the Witness era.
And we wanna talk ticket sales while completing negating the fact Taylor's ticket prices are astronomical in comparison? Yeah, that's obviously a factor.
Era to era (W vs R), Witness is clearly the much bigger flop of the two. There is no comparison between clearing two million and failing to clear 500k.
Katy flopped. Taylor under-performed.
There is a noteworthy difference.
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Crimsonio
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Post by Crimsonio on Feb 7, 2018 23:11:53 GMT -5
I mean there was no way Taylor was going to replicate her 1989 success. With SneakGate and everything, the whole world was against Taylor. The fact that she's sold so many copies is amazing. It's her fault for under performing because she has not PROMOTED ANYTHING.
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Oprah
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Post by Oprah on Feb 7, 2018 23:16:04 GMT -5
I get the public disconnect, but I'm so surprised CHR is giving her the cold shoulder this era. I wonder what happened there. You answered your own question; CHR has if anything been aggressively pushing her songs in spite of them having consistently awful callback scores. This era clearly hasn't been a flop, but it's tanking her credit with radio, which will cause a lot of problems down the road. Another way this era is similar to Born This Way. We've seen this exact scenario played out so many times before when pop stars start climbing down from their peaks.
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tinawina
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Post by tinawina on Feb 7, 2018 23:42:48 GMT -5
Again, pop charts are driven by the tastes of who? 15-24 year olds?
Taylor’s first hit happened when the upcoming generation to rule pop was in kindergarten. Let that sink in.
When you were 15, did you listen to a lot of people you remembered your mom rocking out to when you were in grade school?
All these pop girls are in the same boat. JT is sitting next to them sipping a martini. They are aging out of the demo. It’s hard to keep your tastes aligned with people damn near half your age.
Arguing over who flopped harder is a little pointless to me because they are all riding the same boat to the same island. Some will get there sooner than others but that’s about it lol. AND Rihana will join them soon.
It’s the natural order of things. Heh. It’s not radio targeting her, it’s not Kanye gate, it’s not promotion. She just doesn’t have much longer to be cool. It happens.
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HEADOFTHEPACK
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Post by HEADOFTHEPACK on Feb 7, 2018 23:48:35 GMT -5
^ Not so sure about Rihanna, she's incredibly diverse and adapts well - she's unique. She's also had weak(ish) moments already, eg. the performance of Rated R compared to GGGB. Then came back hard with Loud. Some of her singles tank pretty hard too, she just moves on. ANTI wasn't necessarily destined to be a runaway success either given how long she was away, hit and miss singles and I remember people bashing Work pretty hard before it became a hit.
Agree with the consensus that Reputation has under-performed, but it certainly isn't a flop and there's no argument to claim that. I think part of the issue with all these artists we're discussing is that they're making some really questionable marketing decisions and trying to convince us they're doing a full 360 in terms of sound/image when they're really not.
Witness was packaged as 'purposeful' pop with a jarring image to match, when really it was just the next in a line of Katy Perry albums, if that makes sense? Similar producers with a smattering of experimentation.
Reputation has been packaged as a revenge album as someone pointed out, but sonically it's just going further down a road 1989 started exploring - also she f**ked up with the Kanye/Kim thing and clearly can't own up to it, so that's kinda off-putting.
Man of the Woods is having a similar issue - most of it is standard Justin/Timbo/Neptunes, but the packaging/videos of him wandering through the woods are trying to dress it up as something completely different that you only find on 3/4 tracks.
It's like they're taking the theme of a single and/or what they WANT their albums to be, but they're just not. That confuses people.
Madonna and Rihanna set the example of how to do this very well; if you're gonna go with a sound/theme, you need to commit to it - for better or worse. Otherwise it just comes off as fake and confusing, which is probably impacting all of the above campaigns.
More importantly than all of this - It will be SUCH a shame if Don't Blame Me isn't released.
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tinawina
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Post by tinawina on Feb 8, 2018 0:09:57 GMT -5
^^^ I would argue something even simpler than that. Taylor, Justin and Katy all recorded songs that reflected where they thought music was going, wha they thought would be cool. They followed their instincts and this time the zeitgeist was not nailed, something all three had done in the past reliably.
The music just wasn’t good enough.
I think Rihanna has maybe one more record before the boat comes for her too but but she’ll always have urban regardless so she’ll be straight.
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pnobelysk
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Post by pnobelysk on Feb 8, 2018 0:26:31 GMT -5
"her era performed similar worldwide in terms of single success" I'm not sure what your post is trying to prove. They both did horrible in terms of singles, all the songs we're looking at right now have horrible streams apart from Feels and IDWLF. LWYMMD is closest to having decent streams, but it's already below Feels and has less average daily streams, meaning Feels was a bigger hit than anything from Reputation. And that was the point being made: That a Katy feature still holds value if she puts on a wig and doesn't make funny faces. Taylor fans* need to stop acting like the Witness era was a Nelly Furtado sized flop, when she has 1.5 billion Youtube views and did well in a lot of markets around the world (in markets Taylor is missing), despite struggling hard in the US. *although technically snarks was the one who started the entire conversation and he's not a Taylor fan. But whatever, you get the point.You can’t compare the two, because Katy Perry ACTUALLY flopped. In pretty much every sense, except I’m sure the tour, Witness is a flop. None of these asterisk “compared the previous era”s. You can’t try to have both eras be a common denominator when they’re on COMPLETELY different playing fields. Just get over it already, jesus, Reputation is not the flop of Witness. #4 lead single 3rd highest debuting female album of 2017
seems good to me Miley, Demi, no one really did much better than Witness this year. Pink is seen as some huge artist currently when her lead single missed the top 10 (for the first time in her career?) and the second single peaked at like #90. When the same thing happened to Britney during BJ, she was ridiculed as a flop compared to Femme Fatale. Literally every pop girl currently minus Rihanna is "flopping" at arguably the same level compared to their previous eras. They're all at 30% success compared to PRISM, Bangerz, 1989, etc.I think you might need to study up on pink. For one her sold more than double Katy’s and is still selling consistently week after week and nearing 700k. Sure her lead didn’t make the top 10 on the hot 100, but it was close and still spent 20+ weeks on the chart. It also went top 10 on pop and was a hot ac & ac smash. You comment on the second singles performance when the second single is still in the middle of its run...and while it’s hot 100 peak isn’t high yet, had she performed it at the Grammys the way she performed the other song, it probably woudlve had a sizeable jump this week, she just chose to perform something else. Britney’s bj era is not comparable to pinks most recent at all.
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rickroller
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Post by rickroller on Feb 8, 2018 2:04:48 GMT -5
Whoever said Delicate was a redeemed prostitute anthem 😭😭😭 Truth
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Dylan :)
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Post by Dylan :) on Feb 8, 2018 6:32:54 GMT -5
I don’t understand why people are saying Camila, Halsey and Dua Lipa are becoming the new pop girls. Camila yes but Halsey has only had two hits, one being a feature on a song from a band who was hot at the time. Now Or Never performance was quite eh. Dua has had one hit and we have no idea if IDGAF will actually be a hit or not yet
Also, with all of those artists above (Katy, Gaga, P!nk and so on), you can bring up material. Gaga’s stuff was never going to be huge, it wasn’t pop (and yet the album was still quite big and she had Million Reasons). Katy’s material didn’t connect, there was huge hype before and just after Chained To The Rhythm’s release but the rest of the material was not received well. I wouldn’t really consider P!nk’s material that Pop, or at least for what is big now, yet What About Us still went top 15 on the Hot 100 and top 10 on pop. Reputation was an underperformance compared to 1989, and anyone who says otherwise is in denial, but it was still big. When We Were Young was a huge underperformance compared to Hello and even Send My Love (To Your New Lover) didn’t perform as well as Hello/her previous singles on the Hot 100, yet the album was far from a failure/flop. And as others pointed out, she hasn’t really promoted this at all. The only performances I can think of this era were on SNL(?). Anyway, I feel this conversation is going to happen every few weeks until the era ends and it is just going around and around in circles as no one is going to change their minds (and that isn’t a bad thing)
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deepston
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Post by deepston on Feb 8, 2018 14:01:52 GMT -5
Meanwhile, DWOHT is still my bop.
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August
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Post by August on Feb 8, 2018 14:12:23 GMT -5
Right Said Fred just did a brilliant mashup on Look What You Made Me Do and I'm Too Sexy
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Feb 9, 2018 13:36:40 GMT -5
Starting to think about what the release cycle for this album was originally going to be before the trial threw things off. Apparently the lead single was supposed to be released earlier (and maybe album too?), but RFI was presumably agreed upon before hand.
One possibility I can see is album release on October 13, 2017. Because 13 is her lucky number, also if you take 10/13/17... 1+0+1+3+1+7 = 13. It also happens to be on a Friday. End Game would have been released as a single either on the same day, or the Friday after. Or maybe the Friday before. As for LWYMMD, the actual timeline ended up being Social media blackout: Friday Aug 18, 2017 First snake GIF: Monday Aug 21, 2017 Song + Lyric video: Friday Aug 24, 2017 Music Video: Monday Aug 27, 2017
If it was supposed to be released earlier, a good time relative to RFI's promo single release and an Oct 13 album & 2nd single release would be sometime around... mid July. What happened in Mid-July? Snapchatgate. Kim posted the snapchat video on July 17, 2016. July 17, 2017 was a Monday. Considering how Mondays featured prominently in the LWYMMD release cycle, I think Taylor was going to either post the first snake GIF or release the MV on the 1 year anniversary of snapchatgate. We all know how cheeky Taylor can be and it just lines up too perfectly.
RFI was possibly never intended to be anything more than a promo-single, but maybe her team were waiting to see how LWYMMD would be received and if it did well just skip it and release End Game as the second single on Oct 6 or Oct 13, and if not, release RFI to bridge the gap between LWYMMD and End Game and release End Game on Oct 13 or Oct 20. This could explain why time was scheduled for filming of End Game pretty early on compared to when it actually ended up being released (Jan 12) and why they didn't plan to put as much effort into RFI. And then Delicate or Don't Blame Me could've been the chill winter single.
Or maybe with all the fireworks they did in fact intend RFI to be a proper single released around mid-late September and End Game, with all the fireworks, was intended to be released just early enough that it would be the big hit just in time for the New Year's countdowns? In that case, maybe Nov 10, 2017 was always the intended release date for the album.
@alestevens do you have a source (social media?) for the fan that spoke to Taylor's dad and said the release schedule was supposed to be different?
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mrossp24
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Post by mrossp24 on Feb 9, 2018 13:47:36 GMT -5
I think RFI should’ve been the lead and released right when it was to tie in with the college football promo. Then have the album come out late November or early December with IDSB or End Game as the 2nd single released just prior to album launch.
Or just leave RFI being a promo single for football and release the actual first single in November and release the album January 2018.
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Post by KeepDeanWeird on Feb 9, 2018 13:52:57 GMT -5
Does anyone know the reason why Taylor has been practically invisible? I get not wanting to do the sit-downs, because she doesn't want it to be all about trial and #MeToo, but it's odd that six months into era, there's been so little of her.
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Choco
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Post by Choco on Feb 9, 2018 13:55:14 GMT -5
RFI is a nice song and strong album opener and all but it was a terrible single choice. Not saying anything else would have done better with the same release pattern, but it's not one of the strongest tracks.
The video didn't feel like a rushed release either. Those VFX probably took some time to do. (Sadly they could have done a much better video without so many VFXs and a lot more plot and creativity).
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nickd
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Post by nickd on Feb 9, 2018 14:20:37 GMT -5
RFI is a nice song and strong album opener and all but it was a terrible single choice. Not saying anything else would have done better with the same release pattern, but it's not one of the strongest tracks. The video didn't feel like a rushed release either. Those VFX probably took some time to do. (Sadly they could have done a much better video without so many VFXs and a lot more plot and creativity). You could be right. So maybe they had a release schedule similar to Red. LWYMMD = WANEGBT; big attention grabbing single to make sure people know she's back, released in mid/late July RFI = Begin Again; more low key single to help maintain the hype during the pre-release promo cycle, with an official single release in mid September? Red, State of Grace = Gorgeous, CIWYW; just some more promo singles End Game = IKYWT; second smash single released just before the holidays and timed so that the music video and its fireworks and parties would get played during New Year's Eve? How much time do you think it would have taken to make RFI? I'm not sure when she got the trial schedule but maybe she still got enough time to adjust the schedule? Also the trial wouldn't have affected how much time Joseph Khan had to work on it, only Taylor's contribution. Maybe that's why you have a lot of visual effects which would be his department but less input into the plot from Taylor and less time to film her scenes (which are pretty basic compared to LWYMMD/End Game)?
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Feb 9, 2018 14:32:30 GMT -5
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