Look Right Penny - "Errors"

[jvandyck87]

New Bieler Bros. band out of Florida. I saw it got 3 active rock adds this week, and given the label, I had to assume it was gonna be good.

I was wrong.

It was AWESOME!

Imagine a top-flight prog rock band fronted by a singer with pipes on the level of Lzzy Hale of Halestorm and you get:

[pen]

I've always felt Bieler is really great at finding talent but dogshit at promoting them and even worse at keeping them.

[jvandyck87]

Well at least they found this one for me. Since discovering the song 12 minutes ago, I have occupied each of those minutes listening to the song for a total so far of three times. I suggest you check it out, because I imagine that you'd dig them.

[pen]

Oh, I already checked it out. They're a good band. They're just not going to have a fruitful career on Bieler.

[jvandyck87]

You may be right. No Bieler bands have blown up, but none of them other than maybe Fiction Plane have been designed to really kill at radio. And during their stints on Bieler Bros. Nonpoint, Skindred, Karnivool, and Ankla (among other bands I can't think of at the moment) have certainly become more popular. The fact that Bieler Bros. doesn't keep all its bands might also be a good thing about the label, in that they aren't trying to permanently tie the band down with long contracts, but rather help their bands gain greater visibility until other bigger labels pick them off. Bieler Bros. have been the tastemakers of alt-metal over the last 6 years or so, and perhaps they realize, that in itself is their main purpose.

[pen]

It's true that Nonpoint and Skindred have benefited from the label, but I don't think Karnivool really earned much success from them. A Silent Film appears to be making some waves though.

Meanwhile, Another Black Day, Mammal, Burn Season, Sikth, Mobile, and Ankla have all broken up while under Bieler's tentpole, although arguably Bieler was not necessarily the reason. Soil also appears to be on the verge of breaking up.

Meanwhile, Smile Empty Soul had quite a few bad things to say about the label, and I'd say Fiction Plane and Esoterica have not benefited significantly from their time with them.

As for the bands still currently with Bieler, four of them have yet to release albums through the label, and one of them, Uncrowned, has been signed with Bieler for a while. They actually won a competition to have their album released by Bieler, and yet some of the runners-up also got signed and already had their albums released. Hell, one of them was Mammal.

I disagree with you that these bands are not geared for radio. Some of them are obviously not like Will Haven or Deathstars, but others most definitely could find a home on rock radio somewhere, like Stereoside, Raintime, and Tetanus, if they were pushed properly.

I stand by my opinion that Bieler is great at signing bands, but doesn't seem to have the resources to push them properly. Honestly, I think whatever success Nonpoint and Skindred had with them is more due to the strength of their material than anything else. And honestly, Skindred hasn't benefited that much from Bieler either. Maybe why they're not with them anymore.

[pen]

To sum up, Bieler is unfortunately in my eyes a glorified studio that plays at being a label. Granted, they are a good studio, and I firmly believe that the brothers care about music. But that's about all.

[jvandyck87]

I don't think that's quite fair though. I think if you did a before/after on bands that are signed to their label, they generally emerge bigger than before. And given the way the music industry is designed today, these are bands that wouldn't have been big enough or respected enough to catch they eye of a label with more clout. They have radio promotion that's better than a band trying to do it themselves. They're able to package their bands on some pretty good tours. They may not be Universal Republic or Roadrunner, but they put bands in the game that deserve to be at the very top of it when no other respectable labels will sign them, and the other labels that would sign them aren't big enough names to put them on the map.

And how many of their bands do they even record anyway?

[pen]

Apr 26, 2011 15:17:27 GMT -5 jvandyck87 said:

I don't think that's quite fair though. I think if you did a before/after on bands that are signed to their label, they generally emerge bigger than before.

No, I don't believe so. Many of them like Deathstars and Raintime already had fanbases prior to releasing albums through Bieler, and honestly, their main fanbase is not in the U.S. anyway. If you're saying they had more of a presence in the U.S. after their time with Bieler, I would say probably not. The few bands where Bieler is their first and only home, I would say maybe benefited, if you consider breaking up post-release a'la Another Black Day and Burn Season to be a benefit.

And given the way the music industry is designed today, these are bands that wouldn't have been big enough or respected enough to catch they eye of a label with more clout.

This much is true, and that's why again I say that Bieler is great at finding talent.

They have radio promotion that's better than a band trying to do it themselves. They're able to package their bands on some pretty good tours. They may not be Universal Republic or Roadrunner, but they put bands in the game that deserve to be at the very top of it when no other respectable labels will sign them, and the other labels that would sign them aren't big enough names to put them on the map.

Again, not saying that they aren't good at finding talent. Many of their bands do not have radio promotion though, although I admit the few that do like A Silent Film are making some headway. I couldn't say whether they'd get more attention from a different label though. As for tours, I'd say some of their bands do get on good tours, and some don't. It really depends. And back when they had Nonpoint and Skindred on their label, I think they tried to package their roster with those names whenever possible. It's a mixed bag with Bieler, I think.

And how many of their bands do they even record anyway?

Quite a few, but admittedly most of their roster are international acts who end up recording with their home label. But most of the U.S. based ones have recorded at Bieler.

[pen]

Am I being unfair? Maybe. Do I think I'm making a lot of valid points? Definitely.

[jvandyck87]

I agree with your point. I just view them as generally good things. For a label of their size and the genre they're promoting, I feel like they're doing pretty well at promoting their bands and treating their bands well. Other similar labels might lock a band up to a 6-album contract and fuck them over, either by not continuing to promote them or by getting involved in a lawsuit with a band trying to leave them. Bieler Bros. seem to realize that they're the minor leagues of the music industry, and their main goal is to push their bands into the majors (meaning get their bands on the radar and let other labels take over from there).

[pen]

I don't know if that's the goal they're intending. At any rate, they're doing a bad job of it since barely any of their bands have been signed to majors. Nonpoint has their current deal through Rocket Science, Skindred through BMG, Karnivool through Sony, Fiction Plane through Roadrunner in the UK only, and that's it. Every other band either is disbanded, still on Bieler, or already had their own label deal elsewhere.

[jvandyck87]

Right, and the point I'm making is that, for an indie label that chooses alternative metal as its primary genre in today's music climate, that's a good success rate. Certainly a better success rate than these same bands would have found at other labels that would have been willing to take a risk on them at the time.

[pen]

Apr 26, 2011 16:28:55 GMT -5 jvandyck87 said:

Right, and the point I'm making is that, for an indie label that chooses alternative metal as its primary genre in today's music climate, that's a good success rate. Certainly a better success rate than these same bands would have found at other labels that would have been willing to take a risk on them at the time.

You can't possibly know or prove that.

[jvandyck87]

No, but I can make a strong argument for it. No other indie label has had as much success with fringe bands in this particular genre of music. And if no other labels are trying, well then Bieler Bros. must be the only legit label that these bands could hoped to have gotten their start with. Give me a label that rivals them as far as success. Rock Ridge didn't. Cement Shoes didn't. Eleven Seven is not alternative-metal. That label you mentioned that Dredg is on as well as Eone haven't been around long enough, but unfortunately neither has looked all that promising so far.

That is my substitute for proof.

[pen]

Rock Ridge sadly started out as a well-meaning venture and has slowly fallen more and more into the well of singer-songwriters and indie groups who don't need or want promotion. Cement Shoes was a fucking disaster, completely mismanaged, and almost ruined the careers of three good bands. Eleven Seven may not be alternative metal, but they do have Drowning Pool, Trapt, Cold, and Crossfade onboard, so they are very close.

Not all of Bieler's bands are alt metal though. Will Haven for example is a hardcore band that would do better on a label that tends toward that genre. A Silent Film is very obviously not an alt metal band. I've already made mention that most of Bieler's roster already are on labels in their home countries that suit their needs. Honestly, I think Soil actually would do a lot better on a label like Eleven Seven. I could see Fiction Plane or A Silent Film on Dangerbird or a label like that. You really just have to know what market these bands are shooting for.

[jvandyck87]

I agree that A Silent Film and Fiction Plane probably made more sense on different labels. But as for the alt-metal bands, Drowning pool, Trapt, Cold, and Crossfade are far more aimed at the center than Kanivool, Skindred, Look Right Penny, and even Nonpoint. Also those Eleven Seven bands had all had major radio hits prior to signing with Eleven Seven. Nonpoint and Skindred didn't have anything close to as big as "Bodies", "Headstrong", "Stupid Girl", or "Cold". Eleven Seven doesn't take anywhere near the same kind of risks that Bieler Bros. does as far as signing unproven talent.

[pen]

What risks has Bieler taken? Yes, they've singed fringe bands. Tell me what they've done with them.

[jvandyck87]

Signing them and investing money in them in the first place is a risk. Karnivool has become a fairly major band in the U.S. as far as fanbase since 'Themata' hit here. Their active rock radio numbers aren't far below where you'd expect them to be coming from an indie label with their non-cock rock sounds. A Silent Film had the #1 song at Sirius Alt Nation. What do you want from them? What more do you think they could have done with these bands?

[pen]

Has Karnivool ever had any charting singles here from Themata? I don't remember any ever climbing the charts in any way. I don't remember any going for adds, actually, and FMQB agrees with me on that.

And while signing a band and investing money is a risk, it's less of a risk when the bands already have label backing offshore for their own recording purposes. Bieler more often than not just basically buys the right to release the album in the United States and promote it.

I've also already given a nod to what's being done with A Silent Film, but you're highlighting a couple of choice bands out of a whole field of failure.

Let me put this question to you? Why are you defending this label so vehemently?

[pen]

I've also given credit to them where I feel credit is due, but all I am saying is that there are flaws in what they do, and that should be obvious.

[jvandyck87]

Because your initial statement and arguments you've used since to support it are overly harsh. Their promotion hasn't been superlative, but it hasn't been dogshit relative to a label of their size and genre, either. Labels that can keep their bands, such as your favorites, let's say, Island or Interscope...well that's because their bands are trapped by contracts to stay with these labels, even if they're a poor fit later in the deal.

[pen]

Apr 26, 2011 19:02:05 GMT -5 jvandyck87 said:

Because your initial statement and arguments you've used since to support it are overly harsh. Their promotion hasn't been superlative, but it hasn't been dogs**t relative to a label of their size and genre, either. Labels that can keep their bands, such as your favorites, let's say, Island or Interscope...well that's because their bands are trapped by contracts to stay with these labels, even if they're a poor fit later in the deal.

Fine, but at the same time I don't think I've been much harsher than I feel. I've really liked almost every band that Bieler has signed, and what has come of it? Either they leave the label and find more success elsewhere, they stay on the label and go nowhere, or they disband. The latter has happened way more often than I'm able to swallow, so forgive me if I'm a lot bitter.

[jvandyck87]

I can understand that. The positive way to look at it though is that you probably would never have heard those bands and the little music that they did make before disbanding in the first place had Bieler Bros. not signed them.