HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Feb 11, 2021 23:10:50 GMT -5
Yes, jeng, that could be why Mary J. would be nominated sooner. Being branded the "Queen of Hip-Hop/Soul" doesn't hurt.
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jodakyellow
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Post by jodakyellow on Feb 12, 2021 14:14:14 GMT -5
Something I find fascinating about the Rock Hall is that the nominations and inductions make the news every year and start up a conversation but much of the general public has no interest in learning how it actually works / how much it actually means or matters. I was listening to a news podcast where the hosts were earnestly asking why The Weeknd wasn't nominated after his big Super Bowl performance.. And then of course there are the thousands of people who will write a tweet about how "Jay Z isn't even rock-and-roll."
It's a very silly thing for me to get annoyed about (much like my annual lecture to my friends about the Grammys Eligibility period), but, like, I'd never ask "Why isn't [XYZ team that I heard was good] in the World Series this year?!", because I know there's stuff I don't know and can Google if I actually care enough to share an opinion.
Anyway, to be clear, this is about people I know in the "real world;" not anyone here.
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on Feb 12, 2021 15:31:31 GMT -5
I hate the "so and so isn't rock and roll!" argument for Rock Hall nominations. The Hall has always included artists who aren't guitar rock from the jump.
Good article on just this was shared by Future Rock Legends earlier today, too.
I talk about the Rock Hall waaaay too much at a bunch of other places, but to be brief, I think the nomination list this year is terrific. I'd be very happy with a class of any 5 to 8 of those artists (Although the Rock Hall should be inducting way more artists than that every year, limiting the amount of inductees is the primary cause of their current log-jam of worthy artists).
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 12, 2021 15:58:07 GMT -5
Yeah "FITB isn't rock and roll" is a tired, irrelevant point. Having said that, the scope of what they do cover is still a valid conversation. Barbra Streisand still isn't in and likely won't ever be (neither will Celine Dion), so there are still parameters when it comes to genres. Similarly there are country acts who have made it in, but they're still few and far between.
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on Feb 12, 2021 19:56:12 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I get that. In their reference books from the 1990s, Allmusic basically followed that exact same definition of what they called "rock", and so did VH1 and other places that produced documentaries on the history of contemporary music.
There are specific genres the Hall includes and excludes and it's very picky about which artists are and aren't part of that definition of "rock and roll". There are country and jazz artists that are in because they were either significant influences on rock music or innovated a style that fused rock and their genre together (Miles Davis, Nina Simone, and Johnny Cash are all one or the other). Others are in because their music fits that definition of "rock and roll" more than the casual music fan would think (ABBA, for instance).
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Feb 12, 2021 20:06:36 GMT -5
On the whole country music has been kept out. Johnny Cash is in, but are any other country artists? Even if purely country artists are kept out - and they do have their own Hall of Fame - I think some acts like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson have transcended country in the way Johnny Cash did.
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on Feb 12, 2021 20:46:54 GMT -5
On the whole country music has been kept out. Johnny Cash is in, but are any other country artists? Even if purely country artists are kept out - and they do have their own Hall of Fame - I think some acts like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson have transcended country in the way Johnny Cash did. There should absolutely be more country acts in the Rock Hall, but they have to be the right picks that have some connection with rock. Dolly and Willie are great choices, as would Emmylou Harris. Gram Parsons isn't even in as a member of the Byrds and hasn't been nominated as a solo artist since 2005, and I think he's one of the bigger snubs left once Carole King and Tina Turner go in.
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Landmarx
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Post by Landmarx on Feb 12, 2021 23:51:52 GMT -5
On the whole country music has been kept out. Johnny Cash is in, but are any other country artists? Even if purely country artists are kept out - and they do have their own Hall of Fame - I think some acts like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson have transcended country in the way Johnny Cash did. He is the only one in the Performers category. Brenda Lee, the Everly Brothers and Elvis Presley are in both the Country and Rock and Roll Halls. Chet Atkins, Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, Bill Monroe, Bob Wills and Sam Phillips are all in both Halls as well, but in the R&R HoF in side categories. I've always wondered if the prominence of the Country HoF is the reason there are so few country or country-adjacent performers in the R&R HoF. The Country HoF is the only other really prominent musician's Hall of Fame, at least in the U.S. There is such a huge backlog at this point, I don't see the R&R HoF ever truly tackling it. Glen Campbell didn't get in after his death, so I'm not even sure an outcry after Willie Nelson or Dolly Parton passing away would get them in.
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jodakyellow
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Post by jodakyellow on Feb 13, 2021 3:20:13 GMT -5
On the whole country music has been kept out. Johnny Cash is in, but are any other country artists? Even if purely country artists are kept out - and they do have their own Hall of Fame - I think some acts like Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson have transcended country in the way Johnny Cash did. He is the only one in the Performers category. Brenda Lee, the Everly Brothers and Elvis Presley are in both the Country and Rock and Roll Halls. Chet Atkins, Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, Bill Monroe, Bob Wills and Sam Phillips are all in both Halls as well, but in the R&R HoF in side categories. I've always wondered if the prominence of the Country HoF is the reason there are so few country or country-adjacent performers in the R&R HoF. The Country HoF is the only other really prominent musician's Hall of Fame, at least in the U.S. There is such a huge backlog at this point, I don't see the R&R HoF ever truly tackling it. Glen Campbell didn't get in after his death, so I'm not even sure an outcry after Willie Nelson or Dolly Parton passing away would get them in. Lots of country artists in the Songwritersβ Hall of Fame as well, which is less relevant than your point
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on Feb 13, 2021 9:34:11 GMT -5
Shot/chaser
I love Todd Rundgren's music but he is a huge grump and it's very funny that he was proven wrong about Fela before he even made that comment (note the time stamps on those tweets). Fela Kuti is exactly the kind of nomination I want to see more of in the future from the Hall and has been a long time coming for him specifically, but I don't really know what his chances are this year. It would be awesome if he did get inducted, though.
I think the fan poll is a silly gimmick too, but the Hall has been very clear that the results of that poll count as one ballot among many others, and the winner is not guaranteed induction. Up until the Dave Matthews Band last year, the winner of the fan poll just coincidentally got enough votes from everyone else to be inducted.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Feb 13, 2021 11:13:13 GMT -5
The Billboard.com fan vote results
#1 Iron Maiden (19.23% of the votes) #2 Tina Turner (17.77%) #3 Foo Fighters (14.19%) #4 Carole King (9.8%) #5 Go Gos (9.25%)
This vote allows you to vote as many times as you like but only one pick at a time
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Luckie Starchild
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Post by Luckie Starchild on Feb 13, 2021 20:57:27 GMT -5
Shot/chaser I love Todd Rundgren's music but he is a huge grump and it's very funny that he was proven wrong about Fela before he even made that comment (note the time stamps on those tweets). Yeah, Todd is such a grumpypants... still love him tho. It would be great to see Fela inducted.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Feb 14, 2021 14:55:27 GMT -5
I think the Country Music Hall of Fame has kept some primarily country acts out of the Rock Hall- notably ones like the aforementioned Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton. Also, someone like Patsy Cline perhaps as an Early Influence.
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cking33
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Post by cking33 on Mar 9, 2021 0:39:38 GMT -5
Do we have any idea when the Class of 2021 will be announced? April or May?
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on Mar 9, 2021 11:24:26 GMT -5
I have heard sometime in May. No exact date, though.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 10, 2021 21:59:16 GMT -5
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cking33
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Post by cking33 on May 11, 2021 19:06:07 GMT -5
Heard some rumblings about the inductees today but haven't seen an official leak. Let's just say I'd be surprised if the actual class was much different from those predictions.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on May 12, 2021 0:39:52 GMT -5
MJB hopefully gets in.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on May 12, 2021 7:11:22 GMT -5
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 12, 2021 7:36:01 GMT -5
What is up with Jay-Z being inducted as a performer, though not LL Cool J? With the latter's Musical Excellence induction, that pretty much means he won't be inducted as a performer (Nile Rodgers was also inducted in the ME category in recent times).
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 12, 2021 8:16:43 GMT -5
Yeah that stinks on LL Cool J, but the Hall is filled with crap like that.
What is the Music Excellence deal?
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on May 12, 2021 8:47:18 GMT -5
Iβm happy for Tina!
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cking33
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Post by cking33 on May 12, 2021 9:47:03 GMT -5
Yeah that stinks on LL Cool J, but the Hall is filled with crap like that. What is the Music Excellence deal? Itβs weird. This is kind of an unprecedented use of the category. It usually goes to people whoβve had kind of different careers like for someone like Billy Preston, who got in this year under that designation. This to me feels like the Hall putting LL in because the voters wonβt. And this could be a precedent going forward for deserving acts that the, ahem, largely white male voting body wonβt put in. Also, yay Carole! Itβs about damn time sheβs recognized for her solo career.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on May 12, 2021 10:03:30 GMT -5
Super happy for Tina, the Go Go's, and Carole King. It sucks that the voting body still believes these compensation prizes make up for legends still being snubbed (LL, Kraftwerk, Billy Preston).
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 12, 2021 14:17:37 GMT -5
I mean, even though it's not the performer category, it's still induction into the Hall of Fame. cking, it well could be that with performers getting inducted via other categories are ones that voters may not vote in, at least any time soon. Look how many nominations Chic had. And Kraftwerk is another that probably would have trouble getting in via the Performer route.
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Amnesiac
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Post by Amnesiac on May 12, 2021 19:08:43 GMT -5
Yeah that stinks on LL Cool J, but the Hall is filled with crap like that. What is the Music Excellence deal? Itβs weird. This is kind of an unprecedented use of the category. It usually goes to people whoβve had kind of different careers like for someone like Billy Preston, who got in this year under that designation. This to me feels like the Hall putting LL in because the voters wonβt. And this could be a precedent going forward for deserving acts that the, ahem, largely white male voting body wonβt put in. Also, yay Carole! Itβs about damn time sheβs recognized for her solo career. It's semi-unprecedented. They put in Nile Rodgers through Musical Excellence a few years ago after Chic kept not getting in. It was also to recognize his work as a producer, but it's a shame the rest of Chic didn't join him, particularly his musical partner Bernard Edwards. I also think this a little similar to how Ringo Starr got in for the same award with his solo career. You're exactly right that this is the Hall putting in LL this way because the voters won't and it's going to start a precedent. I hope they don't have to use this too often, though. A better way to fix this is inducting more main inductees than just 5-7 every year. It's also refreshing to see the Hall return to inducting side musicians with the inductions of Billy Preston (also worthy as a main artist, but it was expected he'd be inducted as a sideman) and Randy Rhoads. There's many others they could induct too including Mick Ronson, Carol Kaye, Jeff Porcaro, and Sly & Robbie. It was interesting to see them use Early Influences to include, for the first time, two artists that definitely post-date the inception of rock & roll but were influential on other genres and scenes in Kraftwerk and Gil Scott-Heron. I don't like that Kraftwerk had to get in this way, but if this how they have to be inducted, I'm more comfortable with this - which specifically highlights their influence on all electronic music that followed them - than another Award for Musical Excellence selection. I wonder if they're going to follow this up with a Wendy Carlos or Jean-Michel Jarre induction in the future. Gil Scott-Heron is a great choice to recognize as an early influence for hip-hop too.
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cking33
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Post by cking33 on May 13, 2021 10:45:36 GMT -5
Yeah I was pleasantly surprised with the use of the early influences category and the induction of Preston. It makes sense if someone is an early influence of a specific type of music but wasnβt overly popular. I wonder if this is how Fela Kuti will eventually get in. That or musical excellence feels like his most likely route.
I was listening to a podcast that rightfully bemoaned the fact that none of these special selections were women. There are plenty of women out there who can get in this way. Carol Kaye, like you said, Florence Greenberg and Big Momma Thornton to name a few.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on May 13, 2021 12:11:29 GMT -5
artists inducted more than once
Artist Inducted As (Induction Year) Jeff Beck ----The Yardbirds (1992), solo (2009) Johnny Carter--- The Flamingos (2001), The Dells (2004) Eric Clapton ---The Yardbirds (1992), Cream (1993), solo (2000) David Crosby ---The Byrds (1991), Crosby, Stills and Nash (1997) Peter Gabriel ---Genesis (2010), solo (2014) Dave Grohl--- Nirvana (2014), Foo Fighters (2021) George Harrison ---The Beatles (1988), solo (2004) Michael Jackson, The Jackson Five (1997) ,solo (2001) Carole King--- Gerry Goffin and Carole King (1990), solo (2021) John Lennon--- The Beatles (1988), solo (1994) Curtis Mayfield--- The Impressions (1991), solo (1999) Paul McCartney--- The Beatles (1988), solo (1999) Clyde McPhatter--- solo (1987) ,The Drifters (1988) Graham Nash ---Crosby, Stills and Nash (1997), The Hollies (2010) Stevie Nicks ---Fleetwood Mac (1998), solo (2019) Jimmy Page--- The Yardbirds (1992), Led Zeppelin (1995) Lou Reed--- The Velvet Underground (1996), solo (2015) Gregg Rolie ---Santana (1998), Journey (2017) Paul Simon--- Simon and Garfunkel (1990), solo (2001) Ringo Starr--- The Beatles (1988), solo (2015) Rod Stewart--- solo (1994),The Small Faces/The Faces (2012) Stephen Stills ---Buffalo Springfield (1997) ,Crosby, Stills and Nash (1997) Sammy Strain ---The O'Jays (2005), Little Anthony & the Imperials (2009) Tina Turner--- Ike and Tina Turner (1991), Tina Turner (2021) Ron Wood ---The Rolling Stones (1989), The Small Faces/The Faces (2012) Neil Young ---solo (1995), Buffalo Springfield (1997)
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cking33
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Post by cking33 on May 13, 2021 14:18:20 GMT -5
Believe this also makes Carole the first person inducted as a non-performer and performer?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 15, 2021 19:37:54 GMT -5
Does getting in via "Early Influences" and/or "Musical Excellence" then mean an artist can't get in under Performers, or can they get in multiple ways/times?
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