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Post by allow that on Feb 16, 2013 16:47:19 GMT -5
They've both crossed over to different demos (Usher to Pop, Justin to Urban), but is it easier for black artists to get airplay at Top 40 radio than it is for a white artist to get airplay at Urban radio? Here's thing though: did Usher really cross over to Pop in the way that Justin broke a few singles through to Urban? Or is Usher just a core Pop artist himself? I see Usher as having two cores; not crossing over. Usher's has had a Top 10 Pop hit from each and every album except his debut (and usually several). Between Justin and Usher, which one has more Pop Top 10's? Usher does. Just as dance pop is the sound du jour at Pop now, Urban music was ten years ago. I'll actually give some of that credit to Usher himself. We had a young, charismatic entertainer who could dance just as well as he could impress vocally. He made true R&B music accessible to the suburbs via sugary choruses and club friendly beats. I think his style not only found success at Pop with ease, but inspired Pop to move into that overall direction. Usher was always Pop; it's just that Pop and Urban are far apart these days. That's why, personally, I don't see Usher as "selling out" by working with Guetta or Swedish House Mafia, because he was a Pop artist as long as he was an R&B artist. Now whether the dancepop songs he's releasing are innovative is another story... He's become generally respected by the industry, not necessarily acclaimed, but he's a musician who has successfully crossed over into acting, and that's not something Usher has going for him. Is he generally respected in the acting industry? Somehow I see a Razzie before an Oscar... I don't think people are being literal when they call Justin's movies "flops." The point to be taken is that his roles aren't the type that will build him a lasting shelf in the acting section of the pop culture hall of fame. Do you really think Friends with Benefits (his only leading role) will air on even bottom of the barrel syndicated channels any later than ten years from now? Obviously Justin's acting helps his celebrity; he's in the media more as a direct result of it. But will his roles add to his legacy? Are they influencing other actors to emulate or learn from him? I think the point is that his roles, successful or not, do not impact the industry. He's not an acting game changer, as many say he and Usher both are in music. And if we're going to say "Justin is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and actor" then we can say "Usher is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and media mogul." In which case, which had a bigger cultural impact? Bad Teacher or Justin Bieber? |
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Post by kristal on Feb 16, 2013 16:58:31 GMT -5
I quoted you but I specifically said that he has not been in nothing but flop movies. That is why I stated he had 5 straight films that had made over 100 million. The point is Justin didn't carry the films he's in to the point where people may not even remember he's in them. Then maybe this isn't the topic for you? *looks at subject line* In those movies, Justin was a supporting actor who had pretty memorable scenes. He was also used to advertise those films so I'm pretty sure that people would remember that he was in them. I'm quite sure if people saw Bad Teacher then they remember that Justin was in it. I'm sure they remember that Justin was in Social Network as well. |
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Post by kristal on Feb 16, 2013 17:11:16 GMT -5
They've both crossed over to different demos (Usher to Pop, Justin to Urban), but is it easier for black artists to get airplay at Top 40 radio than it is for a white artist to get airplay at Urban radio? Here's thing though: did Usher really cross over to Pop in the way that Justin broke a few singles through to Urban? Or is Usher just a core Pop artist himself? I see Usher as having two cores; not crossing over. Usher's has had a Top 10 Pop hit from each and every album except his debut (and usually several). Between Justin and Usher, which one has more Pop Top 10's? Usher does. Just as dance pop is the sound du jour at Pop now, Urban music was ten years ago. I'll actually give some of that credit to Usher himself. We had a young, charismatic entertainer who could dance just as well as he could impress vocally. He made true R&B music accessible to the suburbs via sugary choruses and club friendly beats. I think his style not only found success at Pop with ease, but inspired Pop to move into that overall direction. Usher was always Pop; it's just that Pop and Urban are far apart these days. That's why, personally, I don't see Usher as "selling out" by working with Guetta or Swedish House Mafia, because he was a Pop artist as long as he was an R&B artist. Now whether the dancepop songs he's releasing are innovative is another story... He's become generally respected by the industry, not necessarily acclaimed, but he's a musician who has successfully crossed over into acting, and that's not something Usher has going for him. Is he generally respected in the acting industry? Somehow I see a Razzie before an Oscar... I don't think people are being literal when they call Justin's movies "flops." The point to be taken is that his roles aren't the type that will build him a lasting shelf in the acting section of the pop culture hall of fame. Do you really think Friends with Benefits (his only leading role) will air on even bottom of the barrel syndicated channels any later than ten years from now? Obviously Justin's acting helps his celebrity; he's in the media more as a direct result of it. But will his roles add to his legacy? Are they influencing other actors to emulate or learn from him? I think the point is that his roles, successful or not, do not impact the industry. He's not an acting game changer, as many say he and Usher both are in music. And if we're going to say "Justin is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and actor" then we can say "Usher is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and media mogul." In which case, which had a bigger cultural impact? Bad Teacher or Justin Bieber? So someone has to win an Oscar to be respected in the industry? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of respected actors who have never won an Oscar. Heck, there are respected actors who have won Oscars and been nominated or won Razzies. Wasn't one of them Sandra Bullock? I think that was in the same year. Oh, and FWB wasn't Justin's only leading role. In Time was his other recent leading role and that made over 100 million as well. |
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Post by allow that on Feb 16, 2013 17:23:19 GMT -5
So someone has to win an Oscar to be respected in the industry? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of respected actors who have never won an Oscar. That's really all you took out of my post? |
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Post by think pink. on Feb 16, 2013 17:23:35 GMT -5
They've both crossed over to different demos (Usher to Pop, Justin to Urban), but is it easier for black artists to get airplay at Top 40 radio than it is for a white artist to get airplay at Urban radio? Here's thing though: did Usher really cross over to Pop in the way that Justin broke a few singles through to Urban? Or is Usher just a core Pop artist himself? I see Usher as having two cores; not crossing over. Usher's has had a Top 10 Pop hit from each and every album except his debut (and usually several). Between Justin and Usher, which one has more Pop Top 10's? Usher does. Just as dance pop is the sound du jour at Pop now, Urban music was ten years ago. I'll actually give some of that credit to Usher himself. We had a young, charismatic entertainer who could dance just as well as he could impress vocally. He made true R&B music accessible to the suburbs via sugary choruses and club friendly beats. I think his style not only found success at Pop with ease, but inspired Pop to move into that overall direction. Usher was always Pop; it's just that Pop and Urban are far apart these days. That's why, personally, I don't see Usher as "selling out" by working with Guetta or Swedish House Mafia, because he was a Pop artist as long as he was an R&B artist. Now whether the dancepop songs he's releasing are innovative is another story... He's become generally respected by the industry, not necessarily acclaimed, but he's a musician who has successfully crossed over into acting, and that's not something Usher has going for him. Is he generally respected in the acting industry? Somehow I see a Razzie before an Oscar... I don't think people are being literal when they call Justin's movies "flops." The point to be taken is that his roles aren't the type that will build him a lasting shelf in the acting section of the pop culture hall of fame. Do you really think Friends with Benefits (his only leading role) will air on even bottom of the barrel syndicated channels any later than ten years from now? Obviously Justin's acting helps his celebrity; he's in the media more as a direct result of it. But will his roles add to his legacy? Are they influencing other actors to emulate or learn from him? I think the point is that his roles, successful or not, do not impact the industry. He's not an acting game changer, as many say he and Usher both are in music. And if we're going to say "Justin is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and actor" then we can say "Usher is bigger because he's TWO things: singer and media mogul." In which case, which had a bigger cultural impact? Bad Teacher or Justin Bieber?  Officially stanning for stil før talent. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2013 17:44:06 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of respected actors who have never won an Oscar. Got that right.I'm gonna go with Justin. |
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Post by kristal on Feb 16, 2013 17:44:48 GMT -5
So someone has to win an Oscar to be respected in the industry? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of respected actors who have never won an Oscar. That's really all you took out of my post? It is what I felt like responding to. |
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Post by kristal on Feb 16, 2013 17:51:55 GMT -5
Justin Timberlake isn't neccessarily an A-list film actor, but he does have some respect as a comic actor. His performances on Saturday Night Live especially really earned him a lot of respect from a crowd that normally wouldn't care about a pop star. I agree with you. I also forgot that Justin won an Emmy for his hosting of SNL. Which does show that he is respected as a comic actor. |
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Post by Live Your Life on Feb 16, 2013 17:57:08 GMT -5
They've both crossed over to different demos (Usher to Pop, Justin to Urban), but is it easier for black artists to get airplay at Top 40 radio than it is for a white artist to get airplay at Urban radio? Here's thing though: did Usher really cross over to Pop in the way that Justin broke a few singles through to Urban? Or is Usher just a core Pop artist himself? I see Usher as having two cores; not crossing over. Usher's has had a Top 10 Pop hit from each and every album except his debut (and usually several). Between Justin and Usher, which one has more Pop Top 10's? Usher does. Usher certainly has crossed over to Top 40 radio more than Justin has to Urban, but again, that's inevitable when you've released more singles. Who knows how many Top 10 R&B hits Justin could have amassed had he been marketed there as long as Usher? There's just no way to tell. But, personally, I've never viewed Usher as a Pop artist, and I definitely think his core is Urban radio, especially in 2013. |
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Post by Lockheart on Feb 16, 2013 18:00:10 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of respected actors who have never won an Oscar. Got that right.I'm gonna go with Justin. have you seen her excruciating performance on Obsessed? lol. |
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Post by allow that on Feb 16, 2013 18:05:49 GMT -5
Here's thing though: did Usher really cross over to Pop in the way that Justin broke a few singles through to Urban? Or is Usher just a core Pop artist himself? I see Usher as having two cores; not crossing over. Usher's has had a Top 10 Pop hit from each and every album except his debut (and usually several). Between Justin and Usher, which one has more Pop Top 10's? Usher does. Usher certainly has crossed over to Top 40 radio more than Justin has to Urban, but again, that's inevitable when you've released more singles. Who knows how many Top 10 R&B hits Justin could have amassed had he been marketed there as long as Usher? There's just no way to tell. There's no way to tell but that was Justin's own decision. No one was stopping him from releasing more singles; he just didn't want to. That's his own prerogative but Usher used the time to productively and continued to build on his catalog instead. Coulda shoulda woulda, but the reality is Justin's lack of material has nothing to do with Usher's success. Urban may be a stronger hold for him, or his principal core, but Usher has still accrued enough hits-out-of-the-gate and held on to automatic add status at Pop for long enough. He's a staple there as well, enough so where I'd call him a core artist of the format. It's kind of like Mariah and Janet in the 90's. |
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Post by Live Your Life on Feb 16, 2013 18:39:06 GMT -5
Usher certainly has crossed over to Top 40 radio more than Justin has to Urban, but again, that's inevitable when you've released more singles. Who knows how many Top 10 R&B hits Justin could have amassed had he been marketed there as long as Usher? There's just no way to tell. There's no way to tell but that was Justin's own decision. No one was stopping him from releasing more singles; he just didn't want to. That's his own prerogative but Usher used the time to productively and continued to build on his catalog instead. Coulda shoulda woulda, but the reality is Justin's lack of material has nothing to do with Usher's success. Right, and Justin took time off to explore other avenues, which, in turn, enhanced his brand and added new attributes to his name, further cementing his cultural impact. |
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Post by allow that on Feb 16, 2013 18:50:11 GMT -5
Right, and Justin took time off to explore other avenues, which, in turn, enhanced his brand and added new attributes to his name, further cementing his cultural impact. I agree but he did that at the expense of his music career, so that negates the "but Usher released more singles so obviously he has more hits" thing. The clock didn't just stop for Justin: he focused in other areas. So of course he'll have less hits but for whatever reason: he doesn't have them. Usher was able to consistently evolve musically during that time which is impressive in its own right. He ran the risk of falling into a commercial or artistic slump with each album he put out but he's still relevant and had his biggest Urban hit to date less than a year ago. |
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Post by Live Your Life on Feb 16, 2013 19:51:54 GMT -5
Right, and Justin took time off to explore other avenues, which, in turn, enhanced his brand and added new attributes to his name, further cementing his cultural impact. I agree but he did that at the expense of his music career, so that negates the "but Usher released more singles so obviously he has more hits" thing. The clock didn't just stop for Justin: he focused in other areas. So of course he'll have less hits but for whatever reason: he doesn't have them. Usher was able to consistently evolve musically during that time which is impressive in its own right. He ran the risk of falling into a commercial or artistic slump with each album he put out but he's still relevant and had his biggest Urban hit to date less than a year ago. I'm still not quite sure how him choosing to explore other fields negates the fact that he has less hits because he didn't put out as much music. It's the truth. And really, I think that's one of the main reasons why people brought up the media aspect of it in the first place. One, you have to include that when talking about an artist's overall impact, and two, their music careers aren't really comparable other than them both being successful male singers. The time periods and amount of releases just don't match up enough to make it fair. And the original question that prompted this discussion is too broad and subjective, anyway. Are we talking about impact on society, as a whole? The industry? A certain demographic? But to continue the discussion we're having, the bottom line is they've both achieved things in the last six years. I just feel that Justin used his time more wisely by broadening his brand, and that's why I'm not surprised that people feel he made more of a cultural impact. Chart stats are great, but mean nothing to the general public. Now, Justin being white could have a lot to do with the opportunities he's presented, but I'm not going to get into all that.... What I will say is, for as much as Usher has achieved, and considering how arrogant he is, I'm very surprised that his team doesn't really market him as an icon or important figure like Justin or Beyoncé's teams do. Maybe a greatest hits CD could change that, though. |
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Post by allow that on Feb 16, 2013 20:28:42 GMT -5
I'm still not quite sure how him choosing to explore other fields negates the fact that he has less hits because he didn't put out as much music. It's the truth. ... but he has less hits. Period. It doesn't matter why he does; at the end of the day that time was not spent solidifying his catalog. I could open two factories and see which one produces more goods at the end of a year; maybe Factory A took the summer off while Factory B kept chugging along. Factory B still has more output to benefit from. Usher still has more hits to solidify his legacy. It doesn't matter if Justin has less because he took time off. He took time off. He has less. Anything else is hypothetical. |
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Post by B-Boy on Feb 16, 2013 20:47:00 GMT -5
Why does this thread have to exist? I love them both. For now, I'm sticking with the "equal" option.
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Post by allow that on Aug 16, 2014 12:17:15 GMT -5
Bumping this; I'm curious to see what @soblu thinks (I believe this topic slightly predates his posting).
Also bumping it because now that Usher is having a tough time and Justin had an era that, depending on how you look at it, either successfully saturated the market with multiple hits and/or performed as poorly as a long-hyped JT "comeback" album could. I feel like Pulser's often look at the most recent eras rather than a cumulative career, so given Justin's lukewarm hit streak and Usher's flop chain, it will be interesting to see if opinions have changed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 12:18:40 GMT -5
Timberlake, no contest.
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Post by allow that on Aug 16, 2014 12:27:11 GMT -5
With all due respect if you say something like "no contest" then at least back up your claim. It is a contest. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 12:36:54 GMT -5
With all due respect if you say something like "no contest" then at least back up your claim. It is a contest. JT has had more impact on Pop culture than Usher ever has (aside from "Confessions"). Justin managed to expand his brand, Usher has not. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 12:51:40 GMT -5
I can see Justin making sense, for kind of bulls**t reasons, but I don't think it's "no contest" at all. Of course, a lot of what I'm reading in this thread is more "Justin isn't that great" and less "Usher is that great"-- which ultimately kind of takes it back to the idea that Justin is still the centerpiece (and a lot of what I'm about to follow with is more Justin than Usher)-- but to act like Usher doesn't have a massive legacy or impact on R&B is beyond wrong. Usher just hasn't gotten the kind of attention Justin has, but then he's not a pop artist. I agree mostly with what Cynthia said on the first page. With all due respect if you say something like "no contest" then at least back up your claim. It is a contest. Justin managed to expand his brand and make a name for himself as a comedic actor and solo act. The bold is debatable. To deny that Usher hasn't had a truly massive impact on pop culture-- visible or otherwise-- is a falsity. To be honest, Usher kind of helped to pave the way for artists like Justin Timberlake to truly exist. Of course that argument doesn't neccessarily mean the student can't outperform the teacher, but at the same time.. he really hasn't. As for your second point, JT is often raked over the coals for being stiff as hell as an actor (outside of the inexplicable SNL fuckery), so I wouldn't act like his acting career has impacted, well, anyone or anything. I have yet to see any male actor cite him as an inspiration in any capacity, and here's doubting I ever will; so that's totally out. His success as a solo artist is up for debate (i.e. how much of it can be attributed to slut-shaming for publicity/sympathy), but I don't see what that has to do with anything because Usher is a solo artist too. To be honest, the only real divide I can see-- and the one that ultimately gives Justin the edge-- is that one caters to pop and the other to Urban. Not denying the impact that the urban market has on the industry itself, but on a ~global~ scale, Justin is just more visible; which not only makes it easier to give him the credit, but also justifies it in a way. |
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Post by #LisaRinna on Aug 16, 2014 13:09:41 GMT -5
Still Usher. If only for the Confessions era. That album is quintessential.
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Post by allow that on Aug 16, 2014 13:12:33 GMT -5
Justin managed to expand his brand, Usher has not. and Justin Bieber say hello. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 13:13:07 GMT -5
With all due respect if you say something like "no contest" then at least back up your claim. It is a contest. JT has had more impact on Pop culture than Usher ever has (aside from "Confessions"). Justin managed to expand his brand, Usher has not. This. I prefer Usher's catalog as a whole, but he has not made the same cultural impact as Justin nor has he even attempted to. Usher seems quite content sticking to the music itself, while Justin has spent much more time expanding his brand. That says nothing about who is better or who has better music. Justin is just more focused on the celebrity of it all than Usher. |
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Post by 🅳🅸🆂🅲🅾 on Aug 16, 2014 14:06:43 GMT -5
One could make a case for Justin's cultural relevance being related to his high profile relationships and breakups with Britney Spears, Cameron Diaz, and Jessica Beal, his appearances in the tabloids for trivial things, his exposure of Janet Jackson's breast at the Superbowl Halftime Show, the "Dick In A Box" digital short on SNL, his feud with Prince over who really brought sexy back, and of course that hair. At times it feels that all those things have overshadowed his musical contributions and have clouded the public perception of him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 21:49:21 GMT -5
Bumping this; I'm curious to see what @soblu thinks (I believe this topic slightly predates his posting). Also bumping it because now that Usher is having a tough time and Justin had an era that, depending on how you look at it, either successfully saturated the market with multiple hits and/or performed as poorly as a long-hyped JT "comeback" album could. I feel like Pulser's often look at the most recent eras rather than a cumulative career, so given Justin's lukewarm hit streak and Usher's flop chain, it will be interesting to see if opinions have changed. I typed out a really long response and then my internet went out so I'll just summarize by saying I think this question is worded to give the edge to Justin because Justin and his management have clearly made an effort to position him as "the new King of Pop" and to push his brand out as far as it can go whereas Usher has built his legacy and his empire based solely on music. However, I think Usher's impact on music might edge out Justin in the fact that it seems like pretty much every major male R&B star since Usher has been trying to recapture what he's been doing for almost 20 years, in the same way that Beyonce is the undeniable gold standard for contemporary R&B female singers. This gets especially tricky since you could easily argue that Justin himself was inspired or influenced by Usher's dominance of R&B in the 21st century. Like, I don't follow pop music too closely, but besides Justin Bieber (who is first and foremost a protege of Usher), I don't see anyone really taking a note out of Justin Timberlake's book (and don't say Bruno Mars because I will never understand that comparison.) Not to mention, it's felt like Justin's management has been positioning him as a legend in the making starting from his second album era, whereas Usher has managed to stay afloat for so long by always feeling like a current star. His team has not really emphasized his influence and his legacy so that now when he's struggling, he looks washed up instead of like a legend slowing down. I also think this is kind of an unfair question to ask because at the end of the day, the white pretty boy teen heart throb doing "blue eyed soul" was always going to receive more attention and recognition than a black counterpart. Even with the machine behind both of them, as opposed to someone like early Robin Thicke who fell under the mainstream radar, it was just never going to happen. They could switch discographies and Justin would still be considered the bigger, more influential star because that's how it works and that's why Adele is selling 10x platinum while Marsha Ambrosius is a few years away from being on Unsung. Not to be bitter, and I didn't read the whole thread, but I think that's a clear factor at play here and it would be erroneous to leave that out of why Justin seems to be the clear winner here. |
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Post by #LisaRinna on Aug 18, 2014 13:05:41 GMT -5
that's how it works and that's why Adele is selling 10x platinum while Marsha Ambrosius is a few years away from being on Unsung. Speak on it!!! |
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Post by Live Your Life on Aug 18, 2014 20:07:16 GMT -5
There really hasn't been any major changes in their careers since the beginning of this post, IMO. This is still my overall feeling on the topic:
At first I thought the question the original poster asked was a little too ambiguous, but it actually prompted an alluring discussion. We covered perception, media presence, demographics, white privilege, album sales, hit singles, and more.
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Post by allow that on Aug 18, 2014 20:30:09 GMT -5
Justin and his management have clearly made an effort to position him as "the new King of Pop" and to push his brand out as far as it can go whereas Usher has built his legacy and his empire based solely on music. However, I think Usher's impact on music might edge out Justin in the fact that it seems like pretty much every major male R&B star since Usher has been trying to recapture what he's been doing for almost 20 years, in the same way that Beyonce is the undeniable gold standard for contemporary R&B female singers. This gets especially tricky since you could easily argue that Justin himself was inspired or influenced by Usher's dominance of R&B in the 21st century. I think this is the crux of it. If you're of the school of thought that media presence defines influence, then Justin will have it. However, if we're to look at it as "who shaped music more since the turn of the century?" then the balance probably tilts to Usher's favor. Perhaps he doesn't get the CREDIT for it, but so many careers were launched since Usher broke out with debut singles that took a page from his book. Justin Timberlake's debut solo single itself? An Usher knockoff. |
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Post by Dalliance on Aug 18, 2014 20:57:21 GMT -5
I say Justin. I think he is generally held in higher regard and is more of a pop culture institution than Usher is. Album releases by him are among the few still treated like an event. Usher has been making a resurgence recently though and has carved out a good place for himself.
EDIT: I like allow that's point in the post above though...
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