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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 13:03:44 GMT -5
You want to get a career the easy way? Suffer the consequences. The fact that singing shows like Idol & The Voice allow artists to get a career the easy way is still a huge misconception, though. If all it took to gain traction in the music world was a television show, then why are there only a handful of success stories from Idol,(and none from The Voice)? By your logic, everyone can find Clarkson/Underwood success from some exposure, and that's clearly been debunked many times over. Idol & The Voice gives singers a platform, and nothing more. The artists themselves put in the work and promo, and you only get lucky IF you even manage to build a fanbase from the ground up, they mange to stick around, and the right image and sound manages to catch the attention of the public. Most people who sign up to do these shows THINK everything will be easy if they manage to score some success, but if any little thing goes awry, your one shot is over. There are dozens of other factors that go into a successful career, and television just provides the platform, but not the other ingredients that go into securing success.
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YourFaveIsAFlop
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Post by YourFaveIsAFlop on Feb 4, 2015 12:08:40 GMT -5
Also in The Voice one has to admit has the much better contestants throughout. From Day 1, for example, you feel the auditioning singers have been carefully handpicked, and you don't get the hilariously untalented auditioning artists AI allows in. That's also because a huge portion of the contestants on The Voice are professional singers who have previously had record contracts, and many already have released albums, either through a label or self-distributed. Danielle Bradbury was the only truly amateur winner of the show yet. Javier Colon was signed to Capitol Records before he won The Voice and released 2 albums through them to minimal success. Jermaine Paul record a Grammy nominated track with Alicia Keys before he was on the the show. Cassadee Pope was in the band Hey Monday before being on the Voice, who were signed to Columbia and released an album and 3 EPs and were on the Warped Tour. Tessanne Chin released an indie reggae record before she was on The Voice and sold at least 15k copies of it. More than her major label debut. Josh Kaufman released an EP with his band The New Etiquette before going on the Voice. Craig Wayne Boyd was signed to an EMI publishing deal before he went on The Voice. And that's not even counting the numerous other contestants who have been in the industry for years.
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Post by Robert J on Feb 5, 2015 6:39:42 GMT -5
^ FWIW, that happened a lot on Idol too. I'm pretty sure Lee Dewyze and Taylor whatshisname had released indie stuff before competing. And I can think of two examples on Canadian Idol that had already had chart success: one guy (Rob James) went Top 7 or something after having had a few hits a few years back as part of a duo (McMaster and James), while a semi-finalist on a different season had actually had a number of hits (including a #1) as a member of the Canadian version of Hanson (The Moffatts).
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YourFaveIsAFlop
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Post by YourFaveIsAFlop on Feb 5, 2015 8:09:36 GMT -5
I dont know what the rules for Canadian Idol are (or even American Idol now), but in the beginning they definitely had a policy of not allowing people who had previously signed deals to be on the show. I remember a few people in the early seasons who were disqualified when it came out that they had been under contract before the show started.
The given reason was that they wanted it to be fair and that the point was to take a total unknown and turn them into a superstar.
The actual reason was probably that they wanted to make sure all the kids they got on the show were total neophytes in the industry who wouldn't know shit from Shinola in a contract and would sign anything.
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Post by 1wxrld on Feb 5, 2015 11:01:13 GMT -5
The actual reason was probably that they wanted to make sure all the kids they got on the show were total neophytes in the industry who wouldn't know s**t from Shinola in a contract and would sign anything. And then there's the notorious case of Chris Daughtry in season 5 of American Idol in 2006, one of the most talented of the candidates that, to my mind at least, has ever come on American Idol. Despite being eliminated in Final 4, he has turned into this great star with his band also called Daughtry.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:55:16 GMT -5
I dont know what the rules for Canadian Idol are (or even American Idol now), but in the beginning they definitely had a policy of not allowing people who had previously signed deals to be on the show. I remember a few people in the early seasons who were disqualified when it came out that they had been under contract before the show started. The given reason was that they wanted it to be fair and that the point was to take a total unknown and turn them into a superstar. The actual reason was probably that they wanted to make sure all the kids they got on the show were total neophytes in the industry who wouldn't know s**t from Shinola in a contract and would sign anything. Just to clarify, the rule was that you couldn't have a current contract. I remember one guy got dicked over because he used to have a management contract with someone, and right before the show was ready to select the semi-finals the manager stepped forward to say they still had that contract. It turns out the contract had expired, but it was so close to the live episodes that Idol ended up cutting him for it because there was no time for them to investigate. I think Simon said later if the guy auditioned again he'd definitely pass him through, but I never heard anything from or about him after that. Idol liked to state they were looking for unknowns but they didn't actually care so much about that, and in fact there were a few seasons in the middle where there were plenty of grumblings about the suspected 'ringers' they were choosing for the show. In season seven Carly Hennessy Smithson kind of blew up in their face because when her previous label deal came to light the show first denied it then blatantly ignored it, instead of addressing it. Kristy Lee Cook from that same season had also been signed before, but she caught less flack over it because we were too busy criticizing her for sucking so badly. She got (re)signed and dropped so fast that I am convinced they were only recouping the money lost from her first deal. Then there was one chick in season 8 who had had a previous contract before (I remember Kara DioGuardi saying "I remember you" in her audition) and they clearly didn't care about it with her either because she made it all the way to the chair episode. However, that young lady got disqualified after it was discovered that she used to be roommates with two of the show's producers. On Phillip, I am kind of torn. On the one hand he probably does have a valid complaint and I think I would side with his argument on principle. Idol has always been known to have bad contracts - and I don't mean your usual "everyone knows how the industry is, I have no sympathy" bad contract, but even worse than that; as someone else said on the previous page almost no one who started out with 19's management is with them anymore. If Phillip is telling the truth, 19 seems to have taken it to a whole new level with him. He is saying that he wasn't getting paid for arranged appearances, and one of the producers/songwriters was getting more royalties than they told Phillip he was getting (which possibly means Phillip got less than HE thought he would be getting). This isn't a matter of "You should be grateful for what Idol" gave you, because it's kind of pointless to say that if Idol isn't actually giving him shit. Even the flop Idol winners have one saving grace in the appearances they're able to book off the title, so for Phillip to be doing stuff he got no money for is basically treating him like an indentured servant. I don't see how anyone could say that is acceptable or fair. With that said, I have a big problem with Phillip because he simultaneously seems to have gone into Idol blind, but at the same time thinks he's above the whole process. He never missed an opportunity to emphasize that "Home" was not his choice and didn't reflect him as an artist. That made him appear extremely ungrateful for all the success that "Home" brought him, as well as dumb because it's not like there weren't TEN previous seasons of winners getting winning songs handed to them regardless of how well those songs fit them. He could have lurked damn near any given Idol forum at the time to see what the show was all about and found enough information to figure that the overall process of the show wasn't a good fit for him. Ironically he is the one who got the best-fitting (and just best) song of all - to date he is the only winner who actually received a 'normal' song instead of a written-especially-for-this-moment piece of shlock with no redeeming value outside of said moment. The rest of his music isn't so remarkably different to make "Home" look like an outlier, either. I have a strong suspicion he was difficult for the label to work with and that probably did him no favors. My other issue is that the lawsuit doesn't seem very clear. Some of the issues are managerial (the unpaid-for appearances for example) but others would lie with the label (royalty payments, not cluing him in on details of his own album). In a lot of ways I wish this was strictly about the money because no one is going to get mad at you for wanting that. But he is throwing in these artistic gripes that should probably be taken up with Interscope instead of 19. As far as I can tell this is mainly a labor dispute with 19 and Interscope isn't mentioned? Even the royalty payment part isn't clear. If I have a pie and I tell you that I'm going to give person X 40% of it and you 30%, it really isn't any of your business if I decide to give X 50% of it unless I take that extra 10% from the piece I was going to give to you. While I assume he wouldn't bring it up unless it was affecting his cut, there's nothing in Phillip's suit that actually states this is the case. This isn't to mention the fact that Phillip was probably going to be dropped soon anyway, just like every other Idol that has one successful album and a flop follow-up. So if this isn't about backpay for all those free appearances, this lawsuit is actually bordering on stupidly frivolous.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 0:05:43 GMT -5
You want to get a career the easy way? Suffer the consequences. Nah. Half the battle is getting discovered, he just expedited the process by taking advantage of an opportunity available not only to him, but to everyone and came out on top. To even get the chance to have this opportunity, you have to have the talent, charisma, etc. of a star in the first place; otherwise why would the public vote for you to even have the opportunity at all? That's basically what your run of the mill up-and-comer would have to do anyway, but instead of the GP an artist would have to be impressing a label. In that sense, you'd think Idol would make the process easier for the label too. It's just crap politics. Anyway, to the point: calling this the "easy way" is so incredibly shortsighted.
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Chelsea Press 2
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Feb 6, 2015 1:58:05 GMT -5
At times I feel the purpose of these shows is either to be a vehicle for the judges to get their egos shtupped on a weekly basis (as others have already discussed at length about The Voice) or it's just a trainwreck program that people will tune into thinking it's entertainment but the real purpose is to showcase the advertisers' products and if you are entertained in the process, that is just a by-product, much in the same way radio is now. There was a time when these talent shows' intent was to actually find and discover a real star, but that was a long, long time ago.
There is no guarantee that appearing on such a show and even winning will make you successful, but it is in that platform's best interests to give whatever tools are available to make that success a reality. The problem with people voting for whoever they like during the competition doesn't necessarily translate into sales afterwards. It's interesting that there will be that many votes each week and then suddenly that person they supported and voted for actually wins and then they release something after and hardly anyone buys it. It does hinge on them actually liking what they release, but it's interesting that they abandon the person they supported. It is a popularity contest in the end, but nearly all of the winners since Jordin Sparks have not done much of anything at all.
These "talent shows" have run their course and the interest in them has been waning over the course of the last few years. It's just not good anymore.
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Post by YourFaveIsAFlop on Feb 6, 2015 14:22:45 GMT -5
What I think is weird that The Voice is really good at mobilizing people to buy their favorite's song each week on iTunes to vote for them but can't get people to feel any sort of attachment to them as an artist after they win. Christina Grimmie charts 4 songs during The Voice but gets zero traction with her own single and her album is pushed back indefinitely. I honestly feel like her star was brighter when she was a YouTube star before going on the Voice, which is counterintuitive.
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Post by Libra on Feb 6, 2015 16:35:10 GMT -5
What I think is weird that The Voice is really good at mobilizing people to buy their favorite's song each week on iTunes to vote for them but can't get people to feel any sort of attachment to them as an artist after they win. Christina Grimmie charts 4 songs during The Voice but gets zero traction with her own single and her album is pushed back indefinitely. I honestly feel like her star was brighter when she was a YouTube star before going on the Voice, which is counterintuitive. I can't help but think that while some buyers are buying the songs because they do like the artists/songs that much, many more are really buying them for one reason and one reason alone: "Ooooh! Shiny new Voice song! I WANT." Those buyers, even when buying, feel very very little true attachment to the artist behind them. (I'd say they have zero attachment, but there is still some kind of song/artist preference in play that keeps most Voice buyers from buying every Voice song indiscriminately.)
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Feb 7, 2015 3:42:05 GMT -5
What I think is weird that The Voice is really good at mobilizing people to buy their favorite's song each week on iTunes to vote for them but can't get people to feel any sort of attachment to them as an artist after they win. Christina Grimmie charts 4 songs during The Voice but gets zero traction with her own single and her album is pushed back indefinitely. I honestly feel like her star was brighter when she was a YouTube star before going on the Voice, which is counterintuitive. I can't help but think that while some buyers are buying the songs because they do like the artists/songs that much, many more are really buying them for one reason and one reason alone: "Ooooh! Shiny new Voice song! I WANT." Those buyers, even when buying, feel very very little true attachment to the artist behind them. (I'd say they have zero attachment, but there is still some kind of song/artist preference in play that keeps most Voice buyers from buying every Voice song indiscriminately.) There is also that issue of people having little to no connection to the artists in general and they assess no value to music because they can stream it for free on Spotify or YouTube, or they download it free from blogs or P2P programs. Perhaps that mentality is playing out here with the talent/singing shows.
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Post by 1wxrld on Feb 7, 2015 7:34:54 GMT -5
Perhaps also the public likes the contestant's cover version of a well-known song. Perhaps the new rendition brought them reminders of the original track. So they buy the track on iTunes simply for its romantic reminiscent value. Or because they have just voted for the artist they prefer during a certain show, so they jump and run to buy the song they just voted for.
But when the artist produces an original album of his or her after the show is over, the public isn't that enthusiastic anymore and has moved on to the next nice contestant and his "next nice cover".
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Post by funguy10 on Sept 22, 2015 18:38:15 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 21:39:06 GMT -5
Did the NY Post's dog eat its homework or did they seriously not intend to explain exactly why 19E is suing Phillip's new management? without an explanation, it just sounds like 19 is being petty.
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Post by Linnethia Monique on Sept 22, 2015 22:51:40 GMT -5
He bit the hand that fed him basically.
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Sept 23, 2015 0:20:56 GMT -5
It seems more like that 19 wants to keep Phillip around just a little longer so they can eat off of any earnings he brings in promoting the final season of Idol next year.
#MoneyTalks
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Post by loveofmusic on Sept 23, 2015 0:43:29 GMT -5
Phillip signed with Mick Management. Apparently, he was on their website's artist roster in May 2015. Idol's management contracts are for 3 years. If the lawsuit is about a breach of contract, 19 could have a case against Phillip & his new management.
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Post by Chelsea Press 2 on Sept 23, 2015 0:56:12 GMT -5
Phillip signed with Mick Management. Apparently, he was on their website's artist roster in May 2015. Idol's management contracts are for 3 years. If the lawsuit is about a breach of contract, 19 could have a case against Phillip & his new management. Phillip Phillips Stolen by Mayer's Ex-Manager... 'Idol' Managers Claim9/21/2015 2:51 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF John Mayer's ex-manager plotted to jack "American Idol" champ Phillip Phillips out from under his contract with the show -- according to a new lawsuit, but the bigger news is Phil is a freakin' millionaire! In the suit ... 19 Entertainment, the management company for all 'Idol' singers, claims Michael McDonald (not the singer or the actor) gave Phillips the opening act gig on a John Mayer tour back in 2013, and spent that time cozying up to him. McDonald has a management company called Mick Management -- and in the docs, 19 Ent. says McDonald lured Phillips to sign ... partially out of desperation because founding client Mayer was bailing. Cut to December 2014 ... when Phillips informed 'Idol' he wanted out of his contract, presumably to jump ship to Mick Management. 19 Ent. isn't giving up its cash cow without a fight, because while some people think Phillips has been a commercial failure -- 19 Ent. points out he reportedly netted about $5 million in 2013 and even more in 2014. And that's for a guy who's only had one major hit and one moderate hit! Bottom line, Phil's 'Idol' overlords want at least $4 million from McDonald for poaching their guy. Read more: www.tmz.com/2015/09/21/phillip-phillips-american-idol-lawsuit-management-company-poaching/#ixzz3mXRsdVJa
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 0:33:48 GMT -5
I figured it was a squabble about someone 'poaching' their talent, I just think it's weird they're only suing the new management and not also Phillip himself for breaching the contract.
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of money labels and management are able to wring even out of flops. (That doesn't mean Phillip himself is a millionaire though, just shows how much he has been able to earn for other people.)
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Post by keepitreal on Sept 26, 2015 8:25:28 GMT -5
Phillip only had 6 months to go before he was free from his contract with 19M. He could have waited it out if it was just a management issue. It seems his issue is also with 19R, the recording arm of Idol who is his actual label. Interscope is just the distributor. My guess is he wanted to renegotiate his contract with 19R before his initial contract was up in order to keep Interscope and 19E/R wasn't having it. Phillip thought since his debut was a success he had negotiating power to do so. Idol contracts are pretty restrictive and are like a lynch around the Idols neck. The 19R contracts ensured that with each subsequent album it would be harder and harder for the label to turn a profit. Phillips second album's sales were poor and I won't be surprised if there will be a "parting of the ways" with Interscope in the near future. Without American Idol Phillip would be a nobody still singing in the bars for his supper. He should have just waited out his contracts like every other Idol before him. When Clay Aiken sued to get out of his contract back than the 19M contacts were much longer. Kelly Clarkson got out of her management contract too and since than the Idol management contracts for the winners are 3yrs and runner ups 2yrs. The 19R contract is a harder one to break. Phillip knew what he was getting into and knew what he was signing.
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Post by keepitreal on Sept 26, 2015 8:33:54 GMT -5
It seems more like that 19 wants to keep Phillip around just a little longer so they can eat off of any earnings he brings in promoting the final season of Idol next year. #MoneyTalks Now that he's no longer managed by Idol they're not really making any money off of him anymore. 19M got a cut of all bookings and touring. As for them promoting Phillip is just PR business and Idol bragging how they make stars. If Kelly Clarkson couldn't get the ratings to go up Phillip sure isn't.
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Post by ¤ Matthea ¤ on Sept 26, 2015 11:34:06 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, yes, Phillip wanted to renegotiate his contract after his debut album was such a success. But he wasn't successful because 19R knows really well that the sophomore era is the real test for every Idol. And they were right, since the second era wasn't as successful for PP. I think the way that second album release played out made PP even more discontent, wondering where it all went wrong and all that.
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