What to Do About Discussing the Hot 100?

[Gary]

Another thought. There was a time when 'chart discussion' meant discussion of industry charts or soundscan data or whatever.

Prediction threads and discussion of predictions were considered personal charts or games.

Does not appear to be that way anymore.

[wjr15]

Apr 28, 2016 11:00:40 GMT -5 @touch said:

Apr 28, 2016 10:21:44 GMT -5 Glove Slap said:

This has already been stated in more eloquent and extensive ways, but I reiterate that the main issue is that the threads have devolved into a histrionic teenage chat room. Sharing opinions and predictions one thing. A continuous back and forth between the same 4 posters largely consisting one liners such as "Same!", "That's a lot!", "Lol thanks" "Did this for you" "Grrrrr, I hate Panda", "You're cracking me up!" "I was also going to say that" "Please, don't let Formation go top 3!!!!!!!!" repeatedly and continuously is something else, and something that is better placed in a group PM, or something that can be expressed by clicking the like button. They're just not constructive in any way and blatantly moronic.

Either give these people explicit dum-dum friendly instructions on how to construct a Group PM for themselves, or/and then if it goes on, start/continue handing out the warnings, because at this point, after the effects on the rest have been stated and passed on, this continuing is easily spilling into trolling territory.

At the risk of sounding super contrarian, I also don't really agree with the idea that we should increase moderation in those threads (CC: badrobot ). Honestly I think staff should stay out of it short of keeping everyone in line and let the community handle it. Being an imbecile isn't really against the rules anyway, nor should it be, so I'm not sure what increased moderation would accomplish shy of ruining any entertainment value that's come of this.

I feel like the community is trying to handle it now and keep the mods out. The result is the Hot 100 thread and the Hot 100 Predictions thread which isn't working because people are still derailing the conversations and getting into fights. I really believe the mods need to step in and be more strict for a week or two. For the past month, community members are trying to handle these select few posters but every week the Hot 100 thread becomes more and more of a mess. If things keep up the way they are now, I'm scared to see what the meltdowns will be like in July when someone's favorite song isn't in the lead for Song of the Summer. I just miss how things were last year or even back in 2014.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2016 12:21:26 GMT -5 wjr15 said:

Apr 28, 2016 11:00:40 GMT -5 @touch said:

At the risk of sounding super contrarian, I also don't really agree with the idea that we should increase moderation in those threads (CC: badrobot ). Honestly I think staff should stay out of it short of keeping everyone in line and let the community handle it. Being an imbecile isn't really against the rules anyway, nor should it be, so I'm not sure what increased moderation would accomplish shy of ruining any entertainment value that's come of this.

I feel like the community is trying to handle it now and keep the mods out. The result is the Hot 100 thread and the Hot 100 Predictions thread which isn't working because people are still derailing the conversations and getting into fights. I really believe the mods need to step in and be more strict for a week or two. For the past month, community members are trying to handle these select few posters but every week the Hot 100 thread becomes more and more of a mess. If things keep up the way they are now, I'm scared to see what the meltdowns will be like in July when someone's favorite song isn't in the lead for Song of the Summer. I just miss how things were last year or even back in 2014.

I'm not saying staff should sit back and let everyone snipe each other. If something is in clear violation of the rules, then slap a warning on it and call it a day. Otherwise, it's a dispute amongst the community and it should stay with the community (imo). Any additional moderation or expansion of the rules as a result of this sets a precedent for moderator dictated discussion going forward in other areas, which can get really intrusive—personally, I'm very against that. 

I say this as a member of staff on another forum who has seen similar situations that were handled as such. Granted, that staff is far more rigid than Pulse as a whole when it comes to regulating discussion (OT but yes, I know, idk why they hired me either), but my point is a moderator crackdown should be avoided if at all possible. 

[popstop]

I realize the last few weeks in that thread have been a trip down Silly Street, but let's not act brand new and pretend that the H100 threads have always been a shining beacon of civility and erudite discussion. Over the years, I can't count how many posts I've seen over how a certain song didn't "deserve" to be #1 or regarding the minutiae of how Billboard determines its calculations or why a certain song is lingering in the Mediabase top 20. There's shane telling josh not be a squirrel and there's westlife4eva bitching about how songs from 1986 shit on the songs of today and there's Adonis defending Katy Perry again and there's that hubbub of 2M boardicing. I mean the H100 thread regularly gets derailed; I don't understand why the past few weeks make it somehow different. 

I'm opposed to setting too stringent of parameters about what can and cannot be discussed in the H100 thread. I've mentioned before what a chilling effect I think that is. I don't think it's any coincidence that Libra's last post in the H100 stopped all further conversation. Now people are unsure what is and what is not permissible to say. I don't think it really helps that we are trying to make this so nuanced - that predictions are ok, but hey not every day, or but hey don't evaluate them after the chart comes out* or but hey don't point out how a prediction might be off or whatever other qualifications we're trying to add.

*I thought it would interesting to see if this evaluation of predictions was just a new thing of the past few weeks, so I did a search on 2012, and one of the first posts I see is badrobot congratulating someone for getting all top ten positions correct.

[Gary]

Apr 28, 2016 13:20:31 GMT -5 popstop said:

I realize the last few weeks in that thread have been a trip down Silly Street, but let's not act brand new and pretend that the H100 threads have always been a shining beacon of civility and erudite discussion. Over the years, I can't count how many posts I've seen over how a certain song didn't "deserve" to be #1 or regarding the minutiae of how Billboard determines its calculations or why a certain song is lingering in the Mediabase top 20. There's shane telling josh not be a squirrel and there's westlife4eva bitching about how songs from 1986 s**t on the songs of today and there's Adonis defending Katy Perry again and there's that hubbub of 2M boardicing. I mean the H100 thread regularly gets derailed; I don't understand why the past few weeks make it somehow different. 

I'm opposed to setting too stringent of parameters about what can and cannot be discussed in the H100 thread. I've mentioned before what a chilling effect I think that is. I don't think it's any coincidence that Libra's last post in the H100 stopped all further conversation. Now people are unsure what is and what is not permissible to say. I don't think it really helps that we are trying to make this so nuanced - that predictions are ok, but hey not every day, or but hey don't evaluate them after the chart comes out* or but hey don't point out how a prediction might be off or whatever other qualifications we're trying to add.

*I thought it would interesting to see if this evaluation of predictions was just a new thing of the past few weeks, so I did a search on 2012, and one of the first posts I see is badrobot congratulating someone for getting all top ten positions correct.

I agree.

In addition, there are some classic lines line "Where will Mimi Be?" or "You go girl, get that top 10 hit" among others

The Hot 100 thread has always had its bumps.

And oh yeah...regarding the 2M thing, I never actually left, I simply changed accounts and usernames.  ;)

[Az Paynter]

To my recollectin popstop things like that tended to be one-off instances, and while yes they were thread-derailers and disruptive they weren't recurring events that made the H100 threads uninhabitable for the majority of posters, and the causes of the disruptions were dealt with, which I think people were able to 'forgive' in a sense, because those things got resolved. What it's been like here, is the cause of the disruption is not being dealt with and people are running out of f**ks to give about putting up with it.

[popstop]

There's what I think are one-offs in some of these threads too though - jback going off on racism is likely going to be a one week only thing. Landmarx likely made his point and won't be trolling the H100 thread again. Making up stories based on the top ten titles happened for that one week only. Discussion of the best top three of all time happened for that one week only. So if we are willing to "forgive" previous incidents, why not these?

And some of what I brought up are recurring arguments - I get so tired of people who just can't let a comment like "XXX doesn't deserve to be #1." go and decide they are going to explain Billboard metrics to that person as if it's never come up before, and then explain oh yes they do deserve to be #1.

As far as predictions go, I don't understand where the line is getting drawn here. Is it that you can post your prediction, but not self-evaluate? Is it that you can post the prediction, but no one can comment on it? Is it that you can post the prediction, but can't reflect on its outcome? What's the point of having the H100 thread start before the chart is out if predictions and re-evaluating them is considered outside the bounds of the thread? The only point of starting the thread ahead of time is to speculate. I mean that's been going on the entire eight years I've followed the H100 Pulse threads.

I guess I don't follow the H100 threads closely enough that I'm pressed about the predictions, but I'm always hesitant when people are pushing only for dialogue that meets their standards.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I think maybe we should just go through a hot 100 thread or two from the last few weeks and actually pick out the specific posts we believe to be bothersome. I think having something as an example and explaining why might help decide what could be done and maybe even explain to the ones making the posts why it's annoying. I realize that would involve putting the spotlight on people unfairly, but we could always do it via pm or something too.

[badrobot]

^I see I got name checked!

Like all things, most of the discussion type stuff is fine in moderation. The predictions are actually the part that least bothers me (I know others feel differently), but someone else said it best -- a prediction is fine (great even, I enjoy it when it's got some explanation behind the thinking), it's the weird need for some people to bash others' predictions, along with all the other IMing-style chatter, "you're racist!" "no I hate that song!" yadda yadda.

When you go to a party and there are people talking about things you're not interested in, that's fine. But when they're so loud it's hard to focus on anything else, it's disruptive and annoying.

Like I already said, I don't see any need for new crazy rules or whatever, it's just a matter of moderators being ready to take action when something goes haywire. In fact, since this thread we're in right now was posted, the Hot 100 thread has been delightful, so the problem may already be solved.

Kudos to the mods -- whatever you're doing is working.

[Kurt]

Kind of driving by this thread and going back out - aside from when I used to post the announced rankings for those who weren't watching Periscope, I've only been in the Hot 100 threads recently to help address reports; others have been sharing good ideas - but a quick thought: do you think that staff moving conversation that doesn't directly pertain to the Hot 100 to separate threads (e.g. had they been predictions, they could've gone to Games; an opinionated topic could've gone to YOP?) would be helpful, or would it unnecessarily splinter conversation? I don't think any of us is intending to have an ironclad grip on the flow of conversation each week, but I think it's important to respect the needs of both those who want mainly chart updates and those who are more apt to converse.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2016 16:21:01 GMT -5 Devil Marlena Nylund said:

I think maybe we should just go through a hot 100 thread or two from the last few weeks and actually pick out the specific posts we believe to be bothersome. I think having something as an example and explaining why might help decide what could be done and maybe even explain to the ones making the posts why it's annoying. I realize that would involve putting the spotlight on people unfairly, but we could always do it via pm or something too.

I kinda did this in my post on the previous page, without calling out names.  I gave 3 examples of frequent posts that I feel are simply in the wrong thread, and where they may be better suited.   There's a huge, vast collection of topics and threads in this forum, with the option to create our own.  There's no reason we shouldn't be able to spread the love around to other threads - especially when we're clearly just bored and not really doing anything but adding pages to a thread.  I get that people probably like the activeness of the H100 thread, as they are likely to get responses and conversations going so that's why it's a hotspot... but that's not why the H100 thread is there.  it's not a chat room.  It's a specific thread for discussing a specific chart - and there's not always something to talk about every minute of every day.  And that's ok!  There are other threads specifically for boredom and/or those who want to comment on their love or loathing for a song, or a person, or whatever.

[Deleted]

Apr 28, 2016 11:00:40 GMT -5 @touch said:

At the risk of sounding super contrarian, I also don't really agree with the idea that we should increase moderation in those threads (CC: badrobot ). Honestly I think staff should stay out of it short of keeping everyone in line and let the community handle it. Being an imbecile isn't really against the rules anyway, nor should it be, so I'm not sure what increased moderation would accomplish shy of ruining any entertainment value that's come of this.

Apr 28, 2016 13:56:12 GMT -5 Az Paynter said:

To my recollectin popstop things like that tended to be one-off instances, and while yes they were thread-derailers and disruptive they weren't recurring events that made the H100 threads uninhabitable for the majority of posters, and the causes of the disruptions were dealt with, which I think people were able to 'forgive' in a sense, because those things got resolved. What it's been like here, is the cause of the disruption is not being dealt with and people are running out of f**ks to give about putting up with it.

You know, I feel like we are really tiptoeing around one issue when it comes to these two points. Even I have only alluded to it, but not directly called it out. But here it is: it is painfully clear that this group of posters just isn't on the same social and/or emotional IQ level as most others. To add insult to injury they're a rather self-absorbed little bunch - all while being incapable of dealing with complaints, reminders from staff themselves to stay on topic, or even predictions that they don't agree with, they expect everyone else to deal with them post-whoring and clogging up the thread with so much noise that it's even hard to block them out and respond to other posters. I suppose you could put them on your ignore list but then almost every page would be fifteen 'this post is hidden's and it quickly becomes pointless. But Kunt is right. There has never been a rule against being an imbecile. There's a rule against calling someone an imbecile (no personal attacks), and that is what makes this whole situation so difficult to get around. The rules protect imbecility.

I also prefer the hands-off approach more and anyone who really knows my style should be aware of that. But the problem with a hands-off approach, in my view, is that it cannot be a one-way street. If said group of posters truly thinks they should be allowed to post however they like without restriction and annoy others with their posting behavior, then they better suck it up and realize that means the rest of us are just as free to post - and complain - however we like as well. (And make no mistake, it is entirely possible to to cut someone down with a snarky remark without slipping into attack territory.) But then, maybe badrobot is right and the problem may have resolved itself. I imagine it's not very fun to realize you're the subject of so much contention, and it's not like people want to spend all their time in any thread just complaining about the thread. If the mere existence of this thread is enough of a wake-up call to get things back in order, that's fantastic.

On this note, I really wish people would stop bringing up jback's recent appearance as an example of derailing. Granted, I am biased (I love my crazy little Canuck and all the drama he brings) and there may have been some bits that bordered on personal attacks - I'll defer to staff on that one, it's not my call - but the personal attacks can be isolated and warned for what they are. The actual content of his posts were legitimate criticisms that he believed in and had every right to state. Don't like it, either ignore it or step up your counterargument game; but it was no more off-topic than the conversation that prompted his racism accusations in the first place. One thing that should be made clear is that this is by no means an attempt to curtail conflict. That is impossible, and the soon everyone realizes that arguments are part and parcel of a forum board, the better.

Apr 28, 2016 9:16:03 GMT -5 divasummer said:

I know it's a "Chart" discussion forum but they do a "Pulse" awards once a year.
Maybe those statistics can be used there???
I'm not trying to sound shady or anything.

As a former PMA host, I can assure you that these stats could not be used for anything other than locking down an Axis of Evil win lol

---

Apr 28, 2016 16:42:20 GMT -5 Kurt said:

Kind of driving by this thread and going back out - aside from when I used to post the announced rankings for those who weren't watching Periscope, I've only been in the Hot 100 threads recently to help address reports; others have been sharing good ideas - but a quick thought: do you think that staff moving conversation that doesn't directly pertain to the Hot 100 to separate threads (e.g. had they been predictions, they could've gone to Games; an opinionated topic could've gone to YOP?) would be helpful, or would it unnecessarily splinter conversation? I don't think any of us is intending to have an ironclad grip on the flow of conversation each week, but I think it's important to respect the needs of both those who want mainly chart updates and those who are more apt to converse.

Oh, about this - I don't know that moving posts would really help. Splintering conversation is a possibility, especially for posts that may be partially on-topic and partially off. But more so, that would just end up becoming a headache for staff, having to analyze every post, determine if it needs to be moved, deciding where it needs to go, deciding which responses need to go with it, dealing with the inevitable disagreement with every little decision you make, etc. Bigger workload with no payoff (figuratively and literally); I say no to this.

[Gary]

Apr 28, 2016 16:42:20 GMT -5 Kurt said:

Kind of driving by this thread and going back out - aside from when I used to post the announced rankings for those who weren't watching Periscope, I've only been in the Hot 100 threads recently to help address reports; others have been sharing good ideas - but a quick thought: do you think that staff moving conversation that doesn't directly pertain to the Hot 100 to separate threads (e.g. had they been predictions, they could've gone to Games; an opinionated topic could've gone to YOP?) would be helpful, or would it unnecessarily splinter conversation? I don't think any of us is intending to have an ironclad grip on the flow of conversation each week, but I think it's important to respect the needs of both those who want mainly chart updates and those who are more apt to converse.

Of course, That would be simply reinforcing what the description on the front page of the forum says under chart discussion

"Discuss the latest iTunes, Billboard 200, Hot 100 and Hits Daily Double Charts here"

That section of the board used to be an industry charts only forum anyway. 

In recent years, opinion and prediction threads of different varieties have kind of taken over and although the ideas are spun off of industry charts, they are not industry charts as many other charts/lists in personal/games/etc are as well.  Short term more moderation may be needed until people get used to it but long term it would steer the "prediction" conversation elsewhere and may make everyone happy.

[badrobot]

Apr 28, 2016 16:42:20 GMT -5 Kurt said:

Kind of driving by this thread and going back out - aside from when I used to post the announced rankings for those who weren't watching Periscope, I've only been in the Hot 100 threads recently to help address reports; others have been sharing good ideas - but a quick thought: do you think that staff moving conversation that doesn't directly pertain to the Hot 100 to separate threads (e.g. had they been predictions, they could've gone to Games; an opinionated topic could've gone to YOP?) would be helpful, or would it unnecessarily splinter conversation? I don't think any of us is intending to have an ironclad grip on the flow of conversation each week, but I think it's important to respect the needs of both those who want mainly chart updates and those who are more apt to converse.

I like this idea. Really I don't think people should feel they can't have the kind of chatter they want -- they just need to know the right place to go.

[popstop]

Apr 28, 2016 18:10:32 GMT -5 @antigonerising said:

But then, maybe badrobot is right and the problem may have resolved itself. I imagine it's not very fun to realize you're the subject of so much contention, and it's not like people want to spend all their time in any thread just complaining about the thread. If the mere existence of this thread is enough of a wake-up call to get things back in order, that's fantastic.

On this note, I really wish people would stop bringing up jback's recent appearance as an example of derailing. Granted, I am biased (I love my crazy little Canuck and all the drama he brings) and there may have been some bits that bordered on personal attacks - I'll defer to staff on that one, it's not my call - but the personal attacks can be isolated and warned for what they are.

This is kind of what I was getting at - we've had incidences before and eventually they blow over. I think this will also if it hasn't already.

Now fwiw, I think jback's posts were spot on and hysterical, but I suspect some people are going to have a problem with him talking about blowing Pulse staff in a chart thread, even if there were other valid points he brought up. Your defense for him supports my point that people are going to have different standards for what is ok and what isn't, and therefore it's a slippery slope to lay down specifics on what is permissible.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Most, if not all, of the discussion being focused on here does have more appropriate places to go. I agree with the several people who were against putting down any rules, doing any extra moderation, or limiting in any way anything people have to say. We shouldn't have to do that. We shouldn't have to be babysat and the mods shouldn't have to put extra time into moderating a select few who just don't get it. It just comes down to knowing when and where to post things and it's something, in theory, everyone (should) pick up on after a while. I get that new posters don't quite get the norms here right away, nor would they, and we just happened to have an influx of newbie posters who have flocked to the Hot 100 threads, either because they're interested in the Hot 100, interested in pure stats and numbers, or merely interested in the type of discussion going on there as of late. But there comes a point when you should get it, and the issue we're having is that some of them refuse to.
Predictions are fine in the Hot 100 thread. They're a part of the discussion. Robotic predictions and criticism of those predictions don't because they're not discussion related to the chart. They go somewhere else. Not because I find them annoying. Because they're not appropriate in there and there are other forums they would be more appropriate for.
Being excited about the placement of a favourite song has almost always been discussed in the Hot 100 threads if I'm not mistaken. That's part of the emotion attached with being a chart watcher. That's fine. Repeated discussion on specific songs (7 Years) every week that does nothing contributes nothing. Doesn't break the rules but again, it comes down to whether it's appropriate. It's more appropriate in the single threads that ALWAYS exist elsewhere.
Nothing being posted in the Hot 100 threads is in any way bad. It's just not the best place for it. And the refusal of some posters to understand that is where the frustration is coming from.

Of course all of this has been said already. I think @antigonerising said it best when she mentioned the lack of social awareness of some of the newbies. It's blunt but yeah, I think if we're actually going to address whatever this is, we should probably stop beating around the bush.

[J'back]

Just let it be. Jesus. In my day we had the nerd herd nerding the place up. Now you have the special Ed's being special. Whatever. Deal.

I think the most important thing is I proved I still got it ;)
Clap back!

I also helped end racism

[Dylan :)]

I think questionning people's intelligence and mental ability (especially where they can then read it) is unfair, insulting and comes of as condescending. No one here should be allowed to make such accusations about someone based on what they say here, and if someone isn't as smart as the majority and has difficulties with social situations and how to and not to act, they shouldn't be made feel almost unwanted. After reading what others have suggested, I think it should just be left now. The problem has seemed to have sorted itself out and if it happens again, then it can be shut down before it gets to this point.

[Glove Slap]

Apr 29, 2016 1:14:20 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

I think questionning people's intelligence and mental ability (especially where they can then read it) is unfair, insulting and comes of as condescending. No one here should be allowed to make such accusations about someone based on what they say here, and if someone isn't as smart as the majority and has difficulties with social situations and how to and not to act, they shouldn't be made feel almost unwanted. After reading what others have suggested, I think it should just be left now. The problem has seemed to have sorted itself out and if it happens again, then it can be shut down before it gets to this point.

Aside from very very few exceptions, everyone's image of everyone else here is the combination of what that individual puts forward here in their posts. If one puts forward the continuous image of someone who is unable to process directions and frustrations put forward in their direction, it is no one's own doing but their own if they are perceived as such. Whether it's explicitly stated or not is rather moot at that point. The more you get into your own feelings for no real reason at all, especially at a f**king internet forum, the less reason you have to be so brazen and inconsiderate on your end.

And really, if you're the one whose reasoning for everything is "fun!!!! yay!!!!", then you most of all should be able to just suck it up, not take it personally, and move on.

#mourningtori

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Grade school teachers be some condescending motherfuckers if that's true.

[Dylan :)]

Apr 29, 2016 6:14:31 GMT -5 Devil Marlena Nylund said:

Grade school teachers be some condescending motherf**kers if that's true.

Yes, they are   Seriously though, reading back on it I realise I sound way more 'annoyed' than I actually was (it was 7am before school), and I do think it is still unfair to be discussing people's intelligence when they can see it, but as Bill said, you can only judge people off what they post and what they post is their own decision. Anyway, this isn't even the point of this thread so sorry for going off topic

[bat1990]

I have a suggestion which I'm a little surprised hasn't been mentioned.


Rule: posters are only allowed one prediction post and must use the "Edit" feature to amend their predictions instead of re-posting.

Then they can quote themselves again ONCE if they have something to say about how close their predictions are once the chart is out. This would still allow predictions, but I believe open more space for discussion without people quoting their updated list to "announce" their updated predictions.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I think if we have to make up rules, we may as well just have a separate predictions thread. Not that your idea is bad, but in setting up a rule, it would need to be enforced and that would take up time and effort for something that in theory is relatively small.

[allow that]

I don't mind predictions in the main thread if it's in context to conversation and/or uses actual math to forecast who's #1/top5/whatever.

But all these lists on lists on lists of random Top 10 predictions that clutter the conversation really need to see the exit.

[Deleted]

^ exactly - that's really all i've been saying.  the thing is, the predictions just get lost in the 20-page shuffle - which is why those that post them have to keep talking about, updating and reposting them.  it just doesn't work and needs to happen in a dedicated thread.  if i did predictions like that, I'd WANT a separate thread to make it easier.

it's really no different than if i tried to include my weekly year-end prediction updates into the H100 thread each week.

[Landmarx]

Honestly, I feel like there's a great deal of quality, thought provoking discussion in the current H100 thread. I don't see what the big deal is.

[Deleted]

I asked this exact question what to do with discussion in the Madonna thread and was labeled a troll! Now do you see how irrating it is to be among people like this ?
It was the same basic , Circle jerk and I was tied to a cross for it. How the tables have turned . I was paid dust so I will pay your pleas for help dust. A couple of my reads would have gotten everyone together but imma let you experience the frustration I felt for one whole month.. I always come out victorious . I forget what are we talking about here again?

Oh yeah street level justice is best approach. You choke this hoes and slam them up against the wall till they too scared to be annoying.

Lol !