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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:14:11 GMT -5
Okay This is only my 2nd mafia game I've played, the first one was The Tutorial Mafia and it looks like Albie is the only one who I've played with before. From what I remember he was one of the better town players in that game as far as reading people. WotUNeed I think is the only person who I don't really know on here coming into this game. Hi.
So yes I'm still a rookie as far as playing in a more complicated setup like this.
So this plan of having a predetermined list of who to visit - I guess I see how it is beneficial numbers wise for survival of town - but how are we going to determine it that's the only thing that worries me. Just pointing this out but Kunt was the one who originally brought up this idea (although it was scratched out and he seemed to just be throwing it out there in passing?) & also he brought up the Jailbreaker discussion. He has been leading discussion the most so far, although I don't know what that means, if anything.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:20:45 GMT -5
Just checking in quickly when I should be getting ready for work so if I miss the bus.... I'll be late but will have more time to hang out here. Will be on after work this evening. Just wanted to comment/ask about this coordination. How would it work? Or how could we organize it without knowing who's a visitor? I think at this point we just assume everyone is a visitor by default and work backwards from there, since in this game, visitor is our regular townie. So, do we actually make an organized list that A has to visit B, B visit C, etc, etc, and then watch what happens under the assumption that scum would likely not follow those instructions? But, as I said last game, if we go under assumption that everyone is scum unless proven otherwise - does that change our strategy? Of course, I think I was scum last game when I said that, but I do genuinely think it's a good frame of mind to go by. I've been trying to think of a way to make the coordination thing work, sort of with that 'assume everyone is scum' mentality in mind. Say we decide to go in alphabetical order (I don't think order matters so this was just the easiest way for me to list everyone): Albie Az Cynthia Kunt LBTRocks Libra Narwhals Popstop Rose Nylund1 WotUNeed Albie agrees to follow Az, Az agrees to follow me, I agree to follow Kunt, etc. Since WotUNeed is at the end, he is assigned to Albie. Caveats: 1. Whoever is lynched on D1 is removed from the list, and the person who is supposed to visit moves to the next person. So if I'm lynched, Az would then follow Kunt. 2. We should reasonably expect either one or two people (depending on whether we lynch a mafia player on D1) to 'agree' to this arrangement, but not follow through on it. 3. The cop has the option of visiting whoever he would like, or visiting no one at all. 4. The jailkeeper has the option of visiting the person he's assigned to, or visiting no one at all. The cop can jump out of line if he he is really suspicious of someone and thinks it's safe to do so (although given the worst case scenario I'm about to mention, he probably won't want to). But It's really important that if the jailkeeper decides to participate in this that he does not jump out of order and visit a different person, because his roleblocking may ironically make it much harder, if not impossible, to trace things back to mafia on D2. Given those caveats, these are the possibilities. 1. Worst case scenario: both mafia players arm themselves with PGO bullets, thus killing the people who followed them. They also successfully NK someone. Result: 3 deaths, D2 begins with a 4/2 ratio 2. Meh scenario: one mafia player arms himself, killing the person who followed him. There is a successful NK. OR both mafia players arm themselves, killing the people who followed them, but the jailkeeper blocks or protects someone from the NK. Result: 2 deaths, D2 begins with a 5/2 ratio 3. Best case scenario: neither mafia player arms himself. There is a NK. OR One mafia player arms himself, but the jailkeeper blocks or protects someone from the NK. Result: 1 death, D2 begins with a 6/2 ratio 4. Super duper best: neither mafia player arms himself, and jailkeeper blocks or protects someone from the NK. Result: no deaths, D2 begins with a 7/2 ratio
I should note here that all scenarios assumed a D1 mislynch - if we lynch correctly then worst-case scenario isn't possible, and town's odds of winning become higher with the other two scenarios. Also noteworthy is that the jailkeeper intervention can come about one of two ways - by visiting (thus blocking) a mafia player, or by visiting (thus protecting) a town player. I'm not going to go into whether jailkeeper > PGO here since it's been determined that even the game mods don't know yet, but we do know that a jailkeeper > an unarmed mafia player who sends in the night kill.
The worst scenario would put us at 4/2 (MYLO) on D2, and is the reason why the cop might find it better to not jump out of line with his investigation, because then he'd be a fourth death on top of the carnage and we'd be at 3/2 (LYLO). But the thing with the worst case scenario is, while it would put us in MYLO it would also make mafia so much more easily traceable that town's odds of winning would be very high. So there's a tradeoff here that might make this coordination plan worth it - mafia can try to kill as many players as possible if they would like, but they'll increase their chances of getting caught before they seal the deal. The other scenarios aren't nearly as traceable, but they minimize the # of deaths by forcing everyone to follow different people.
I'm...tentatively ok with going through on this plan, but still somewhat leery of its efficacy. If there are any holes - or heck, even any benefits - that I have missed here, definitely point them out.
Also should note that I just caught myself getting so hung up on this night action coordination that I haven't given any thought to who we are going to lynch, so when I come back (some time later today/tonigh) I'll concentrate solely on that.
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WotUNeed
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Post by WotUNeed on May 20, 2016 11:29:28 GMT -5
WotUNeed I'm not sure why the mod would as it would confirm a player to be town. If he protects someone and the mod confirms that a bullet was wasted, then the Jailkeeper would then have a confirmed townie. I'd also like you to expand on why you think coordinating visits is a good idea. Cynthia and I weighed pros and cons a bit earlier, so anything you could expand on may be beneficial. I think you misunderstood my question to mod. I am asking if they can decide now how that situation would play out (successful role blocking of all kills or successful killing of all players who target armed scum) as what I think could help us drastically changes based on how that scenario would play out. As to why I think it could help, it's based on the potential for town to gather substantive information should the event arise that more than one person is killed at night. Scum always have an information advantage, but coordination limits the potential for wreaking complete havoc with the potential extra kills. Sorry if this reads oddly. I have never been great at posting from my phone.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:40:58 GMT -5
Okay This is only my 2nd mafia game I've played, the first one was The Tutorial Mafia and it looks like Albie is the only one who I've played with before. From what I remember he was one of the better town players in that game as far as reading people. WotUNeed I think is the only person who I don't really know on here coming into this game. Hi. So yes I'm still a rookie as far as playing in a more complicated setup like this. So this plan of having a predetermined list of who to visit - I guess I see how it is beneficial numbers wise for survival of town - but how are we going to determine it that's the only thing that worries me. Just pointing this out but Kunt was the one who originally brought up this idea (although it was scratched out and he seemed to just be throwing it out there in passing?) & also he brought up the Jailbreaker discussion. He has been leading discussion the most so far, although I don't know what that means, if anything. I feel like the alphabetical order I used above is the simplest way to go about it, as it takes control of the order out of everyone's hands. The only hitch to this is that I alphabetized that list according to current screen names, and popstop has now become Justin Trudeau's Hair so he's thrown my list off When josh listed the players in the opening post he alphabetized us by our oringal user names, so we could go that way as well. We could also use a random generator to come up with an order for us, but if we do that I would ask one of the game mods to handle it so that we can ensure impartiality. The order itself doesn't matter, the main concern is just making sure there's not one person controlling it. Kunt is very good about leading discussion (regardless of his alignment) so while I wouldn't immediately glom on to that as an auto-town read, I also would not immediately jump on it as suspect, either.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:45:14 GMT -5
I'm counting on a meaningful contribution once you're able to Libra, otherwise the fire is #lit under your thieving political scummy ass (speaking flavour of course) Vote: LibraLibra never flavor claimed? Not in thread, anyway. Maybe in your scum QT. Vote: Azooooooooohhhhhh Vote: Az it's not much but maybe it's something?
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on May 20, 2016 12:39:25 GMT -5
Albie Az Cynthia Kunt LBTRocks Libra Narwhals Popstop Rose Nylund1 WotUNeed Albie agrees to follow Az, Az agrees to follow me, I agree to follow Kunt, etc. Since WotUNeed is at the end, he is assigned to Albie. Given those caveats, these are the possibilities. 1. Worst case scenario: both mafia players arm themselves with PGO bullets, thus killing the people who followed them. They also successfully NK someone. Result: 3 deaths, D2 begins with a 4/2 ratio There's too much for me to read too closely here at work on my cellphone now but I do want to comment on Cynthia's idea and worst case scenario. For sake of easiness, let's go alphabetical and say Albie is lynched on day 1 and is visitor town. That leaves: Az Cynthia Kunt LBTRocks Libra Narwhals Popstop Rose Nylund1 WotUNeed Let's say we go with the instruction of everyone visiting the next on the list. Let's say scum is Az and Libra and they're both armed on night 1. If LBT and Wot are the ones who are shot (and Cynthia is the NK target), that leaves us with: Az Kunt Libra Narwhals Popstop Rose Nylund1 Based on LBT and Wot both being shot, we would then know/safe to assume they visited the next in line and were shot, thereby leaving us to conclude who scum is. I want to think about this more because this is only one scenario and i haven't given any thought to variations, such as the cop visiting someone else, or the jailkeeper visiting the someone else. And so on.
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Albie
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Post by Albie on May 20, 2016 13:19:52 GMT -5
Libra never flavor claimed? Not in thread, anyway. Maybe in your scum QT. Vote: Azooooooooohhhhhh Vote: Az it's not much but maybe it's something? I don't know. I took Az's comment as a reference to the flavor of the game in general rather than Libra's role's flavor.
I've been in and out of meetings all morning but I'm pretty much at my desk for the rest of the day so I'm going to try to get my head around all the list talk. Just in skimming though, this isn't an opportunity I've had before when playing mafia and in some ways it can definitely help us get ahead of the scum team. I want to look more closely at all the scenarios but overall it seems like a forward-moving action despite the fact that it may end in town being down more players than we'd like at least we'd potentially have more to go on for Day 2 - even more than when there is just a night kill. I'll be back.
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LBTrocks
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Post by LBTrocks on May 20, 2016 13:48:35 GMT -5
I won't be back on until later tonight, but in the meantime I have tried reading through the thread on my phone. I haven't had much time to fully reason through the coordination that Cynthia suggested. However, at first glance it doesn't look bad on paper and I am definitely not against it. That said, I would like to give it some more thought when I actually have time and access to a computer, just to make sure there's little to no holes in the plan that could help scum out somehow. Essentially, I think we have to make sure that the benefits to town greatly outweigh any benefits to scum.
I would like to read what Max said again, because I think it made sense, but I feel there are variations to what he pointed out and I think we might benefit from discussing that further. However, I am a little discouraged about the mods not knowing how they would resolve the whole Jailkeeper targeting a PGO thing. Because how that plays out is going to add a different dynamic to many of the scenarios and strategies we might have.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on May 20, 2016 15:08:46 GMT -5
One thing against the coordination thing is that scum won't arm themselves in this case, which is both good and bad. Good in that it won't result in an extra kill but bad in that it doesn't give us that obvious information. In order for coordination to be useful really is if we stick to it for the duration of the game, in which case it becomes trial and error. So, I mean, I guess it's still something but I'm hoping we can use what we have to come up with a better plan?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 15:24:21 GMT -5
One thing against the coordination thing is that scum won't arm themselves in this case, which is both good and bad. Good in that it won't result in an extra kill but bad in that it doesn't give us that obvious information. In order for coordination to be useful really is if we stick to it for the duration of the game, in which case it becomes trial and error. So, I mean, I guess it's still something but I'm hoping we can use what we have to come up with a better plan? Okay this is really confusing me now, how do you know this would be the case? Does this mean having a list of coordination could give scum way too much information to know when to arm themselves?
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popstop
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Post by popstop on May 20, 2016 15:39:42 GMT -5
Using the plan Cynthia outlined would work well and may hopefully even inhibit PGO from using their 1-shot since, as Max mentioned, they could be outed Day 2. I think there's still room for mafia to play with this set-up, but I haven't seen a better alternative. One note: compulsive visitors are required to visit someone, so if a night action is not submit, it becomes a random visit - so do not forget to submit your night actions, people! >:( After re-reading through the thread, I don't think Kunt would ask if scum had safe claims if he already had one himself. Also, I like that Kunt called out Az on the flavor claim thing since the word "thieving" is rather specific. I don't think Cynthia would mention avoiding tipping-off scum if she were mafia. That's all I have so far. I'm still pretty skeptical of everyone else. I think narwhals was the only one to engage my question from last night. >:( Also, side note - WotUNeed's first post may be one of the most entertaining posts in all the mafias I've played. :)
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 15:58:25 GMT -5
ngl I haven't read Cynthia's essay but I'll respond to these while I comb through it. Sorry if I repeat anything or something I say has already been addressed. I think you misunderstood my question to mod. I am asking if they can decide now how that situation would play out (successful role blocking of all kills or successful killing of all players who target armed scum) as what I think could help us drastically changes based on how that scenario would play out. As to why I think it could help, it's based on the potential for town to gather substantive information should the event arise that more than one person is killed at night. Scum always have an information advantage, but coordination limits the potential for wreaking complete havoc with the potential extra kills. Sorry if this reads oddly. I have never been great at posting from my phone. Can confirm: I misread, and I agree. I'd like josh to clear up any grey areas in the setup. Personally, I think it's pretty clear in the setup notes that the Jailkeeper would die as they do not prevent the gun owner from arming themselves; but then I'm also not the mod, so moot point. Regarding your info point: why would scum think to arm themselves if we're coordinating unless they were intentionally trying to fuck with us (I cover this in depth later)? I feel like we're all pulling a Pulse here and talking too much about the Night Phase when we should be looking more at the Day Phase and what's being said. One thing against the coordination thing is that scum won't arm themselves in this case, which is both good and bad. Good in that it won't result in an extra kill but bad in that it doesn't give us that obvious information. In order for coordination to be useful really is if we stick to it for the duration of the game, in which case it becomes trial and error. So, I mean, I guess it's still something but I'm hoping we can use what we have to come up with a better plan? Okay this is really confusing me now, how do you know this would be the case? Does this mean having a list of coordination could give scum way too much information to know when to arm themselves? What he means is, if scum knows they're going to be visited, then they won't arm themselves because then the town would know who was scum based on the fact that the person who visited them was killed. Here's an example: Everyone agrees that it's your job to visit popstop tonight, and in this hypothetical situation, popstop is scum. Popstop has two options. Option one: he arms himself so that you will die by default; option two: he doesn't arm himself. Option two is actually more beneficial for him, because if he were to arm himself and you wind up dead, all of town knows you visited him last night, so we would naturally know he's the one who killed you. The risk of making that connection could deter scum from actually arming themselves. Here's the thing, and Devil Marlena Nylund should probably consider this as well: scum can also use this situation to their advantage and ultimately wreak havoc, as Wot put it. If scum knows Narwhals is visiting popstop, and Albie is visiting Az (still assuming popstop is scum in this scenario), then popstop can arm himself so that Narwhals dies, but he could also submit a kill so that Albie is nightkilled. He and his partner can then propose that Az, who is innocent in this scenario, is guilty of arming himself (and Albies's death), but Narwhals was killed via factional kill. This assumes that town won't know who died as a result of what, which is consistent with most games. That, and we have to account for Jailkeeper protection which could make an armed kill look like a nightkill should only one show up at daystart. I'm personally against the coordination because it creates wall of "what-if" scenarios that scum can just hide behind without actually being proactive. "I'm not sure if we can conclusively say X was killed because he was nightkilled, or he visited someone who was armed..." The posts write themselves, or am I just missing something? Either way, I'm willing to cooperate if the consensus is mostly positive regarding this plan of action, but again: I'm not for this.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on May 20, 2016 16:03:54 GMT -5
Oh yes, I wondered that last night about whether NKs would be differentiated based on whether they were a result of the shotgun or the regular NK. I went on the assumption they were listed as one or the other but I guess they aren't? If not, that does challenge the plan - I knew it couldn't have been that simple.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 16:07:38 GMT -5
Read Cynthia's post and I'm even more against it now because of the numbers, which I hadn't considered before. In a 4/2 situation in which one is an untraceable night kill, scum can just downplay their bullets and target the person the night kill visited as arming themself. We mislynch, they proceed to make another night kill, town loses.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 16:13:02 GMT -5
Okay those last few posts cleared things up for me (at least )regarding the compelexity of the night actions but I agree we need to move past that discussion now ASAP, I believe.
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popstop
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Post by popstop on May 20, 2016 16:17:29 GMT -5
Well, Kunt, that is what I meant that mafia could play with our set-up, but I didn't want to spell out anything for them. With Cynthia's plan, there is minimal carnage. If we randomize, there is a chance for more loss. I'm wondering if no lynch would be a good option for D1. I know normally that's a terrible plan, but I think this set-up gives us a lot more data on D2 than normal. Not to mention I don't think I've ever played a (completed) game where mafia was lynched D1.
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Albie
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Post by Albie on May 20, 2016 17:15:31 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I am so pleased to see I was so missed I just realized I haven't played in a game with alberto either; I was in the green room for both of those games. Hi Albie RVS is always such an annoying time of the game and I feel like I always stumble through this part, but I like what Cynthia brought to the table last game in at least getting a convo going about how to go about selecting a lynch target. Basically, in absence of any information, what are strengths/weaknesses of which you are already aware with the people in this game? For example, Max often lasts to the bitter end of the game and I think it's because he tends to waver and be non-committal and doesn't have a lot of strong opinions, which works for either mafia or town. And Matt as town - his heart in the right place, but he tends to direct his focus on one theory too long and doesn't consider different angles. Cynthia is often scattered at the beginning, but sharpens with each day (Pizza Boy notwithstanding). WotUNeed is highly analytical, but I've never seen him as mafia so I have no idea what that looks like. Az is often overly paranoid, even as town, which has made him an easy dogpile target in the past. Hi popstop.
In answer to your question:
LTBrocks – I played with him for like two seconds last time because he had to drop out. I know he had one of the scum roles initially though and he seemed to play it pretty cool but I don’t recall much else because he wasn’t around too long. WotUNeed – this is my first time playing with him so I am unaware of his style of play. Seems to be pretty respected though so I imagine he is a strong player – especially based off that first post. He’s obviously crafty and capable of writing well thought-out posts.
Narwhals – a trickster. He was scum last time we played together though he was playing alongside two veterans – Libra and Liucci (who replaced LBT). He started off with the newbie card but then admittedly caught on rather quickly and gave off coached scum vibes when he was actually just doing really well for himself. So I’d definitely watch out for him. He’s stayed a bit lowkey so far though. Weakness: so far he’s still holding his newbie card close to his heart but no longer wearing on his sleeve but lbr….I would/have/am too. Albie – the best person you’ll ever meet. Popstop – as you mentioned, I haven’t played a game with you yet. From a personal stand point, you can be very insightful and also are really good at crafting wordy posts (not necessarily word walls – just wordy). Weakness: you don’t send nudes.
Cynthia – Another whom I also haven’t played with so I’m not aware of her game play first hand but obviously from following along in past games I can see her strength is in her writing and ability to sway a conversation one way or another by making good if not long-winded points. Her weakness I’m not sure but somehow its relates to her strength – I feel like she talks herself in circles sometimes (which I am quite guilty of as well)
Az – Definitely a bit of a trickster and he plays pretty good scum. But the last time I was up against him as opposite scum team, I recall him being a bit too excitable near the end. Otherwise, good player that helps town along even when scum.
Kunt – First time playing with him too so again I’m speaking off of observing in past games (mind you, my observing hasn’t been the most attentive – I tend not to follow as closely when I’m not playing). He leads conversation and that is one thing I have consistently seen from him. He has no qualms about mentioning things that stand out to him and often tend to be unique observations which is a very strong skill. But last game he really zeroed in on one thing and that was the undoing on Town really so his weakness would be in his inability to remain impartial, if needed (again, something that I too am guilty of) Libra – one of my favorite players to observe and play with because he too is so good at leading discussion which he is pretty good at hiding behind when he is scum – like he was in the last game I played in with him (Tutorial). His weakness – not quite sure. He seems to be a pretty well balanced player.
Max – Max can be helpful and insightful when he wants to be. I don’t believe I’ve played with him as scum before so I can’t speak to that but as town he is very helpful. He seems to stay pretty open (haha) to new ideas and what not.
Please note I am only answering your question as far as strengths/weaknesses rather than giving full reads on people at the moment.
Ok, now I've also tried to catch up with everything including Cynthia's post and the various responses to that. This set up seems too risky now to go through with the plan that Cynthia has devised. All I can think is that the worst case scenario is bound to happen – especially considering that everyone has essentially laid out all of scum’s options for them so that scum only have to pick a strategy and go with it following their night actions and they're work is done. I wonder if it might be better to try that on D2 once we’ve got a little more to work with and have a whole other day to discuss things with a bit more meat behind them and at that point if we tried out Cynthia’s strategy, we’d lose people probably but we’d also presumably have a ton to go on for D3. I don’t believe I’ve played a game where no lynch has been an option so I’m not sure how that usually turns out (surely its different every game).
The other thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is the fact that this is an open set-up. And along with that, I’m wondering if role claiming could be beneficial? We know how many of each type of role there are so when we get an off role claim, won’t that help us? I was actually thinking about this working in conjunction with the randomized visiting plan. I have a whole idea about this but I've never experienced role claiming this early in a game (well the closest was maybe during Cynthia's Identity game but that wasn't an open setup) so I wanted to throw it out there first and see what the cons are and better cover the holes in my idea rather than putting something else on the table that the scum could fall back on. With that said:
Question for everyone: what would be the benefits vs. the cost of role claiming now?
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WotUNeed
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Post by WotUNeed on May 20, 2016 17:16:00 GMT -5
Okay This is only my 2nd mafia game I've played, the first one was The Tutorial Mafia and it looks like Albie is the only one who I've played with before. From what I remember he was one of the better town players in that game as far as reading people. WotUNeed I think is the only person who I don't really know on here coming into this game. Hi. Hello! Didn't realize you'd played before; thanks for clarifying. Guess Tutorial will be my starting point for trying to read an old thread, then. Some of y'all have posted a bit too much scenario-wise about possible coordination. Don't get me wrong; I ran scenarios in my head (even some that are different from the ones here) before I decided if I thought it was ultimately helpful or not, but trying to analyze how scum could react (and helpfully analyzing the pros and cons for them) is just going to drive you crazy. My only real point is that, in a normal game of mafia, there's little known about why a night kill is done, and, in this setup, without coordination, there's zero risk to the mafia activating the one-shot ability on any given night. With coordination, there's risk. Yes, that could mean there's a risk-averse pair who chooses not to use the ability early in the game... but that's not a bad thing. But, again, I was hoping to have josh and Zeebz weigh in on the jailkeeper-armed scum thing prior to really even trying to get into major specifics of how coordination would be accomplished as, for now, trying to lay out a specific plan even if we were in a consensus that coordination was a good idea (and at this point, we're clearly not) would be premature. Anyway... I won't be back on until later tonight, but in the meantime I have tried reading through the thread on my phone. I haven't had much time to fully reason through the coordination that Cynthia suggested. However, at first glance it doesn't look bad on paper and I am definitely not against it. That said, I would like to give it some more thought when I actually have time and access to a computer, just to make sure there's little to no holes in the plan that could help scum out somehow. Essentially, I think we have to make sure that the benefits to town greatly outweigh any benefits to scum. I would like to read what Max said again, because I think it made sense, but I feel there are variations to what he pointed out and I think we might benefit from discussing that further. However, I am a little discouraged about the mods not knowing how they would resolve the whole Jailkeeper targeting a PGO thing. Because how that plays out is going to add a different dynamic to many of the scenarios and strategies we might have. So basically, you might have opinions and you can summarize the thread? Vote: LBTrocksAlso, side note - WotUNeed's first post may be one of the most entertaining posts in all the mafias I've played. :) Too much credit, but thank you. :) As to the idea of a D1 No Lynch, I don't see any benefit to that right now. I'm willing to read the argument in its favor, but at the moment, that seems like it'd be town just outright conceding it's useless at playing Mafia traditionally and crossing its fingers for a lucky night phase.
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WotUNeed
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Post by WotUNeed on May 20, 2016 17:19:52 GMT -5
Albie: Role claiming now would be terrible. It basically gives the mafia a convenient hit list. It has no benefit to town. Don't do it.
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Albie
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Post by Albie on May 20, 2016 17:36:36 GMT -5
Albie : Role claiming now would be terrible. It basically gives the mafia a convenient hit list. It has no benefit to town. Don't do it. I mean, they already know who we are. But I get what you're saying totally. I wasn't planning on role claiming I was just thinking through something and I was hoping to kind of bounce it off you all because I'm not sure how it would work. I am trying to think through how we could use the town power roles to keep us safe even if we did role claim and at the same time gain us a bit of an edge in that scum would be even more under a microscope.
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Az Paynter
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Post by Az Paynter on May 20, 2016 17:46:36 GMT -5
Hai~ Kunt, you were definitely reading a little too much into that comment. Albie was right, I was referring to every flavour character being a politician (who generally get accused of being corrupt by someone) IDK why Cynthia jumped on that one too. Role-claiming is pointless, especially in an open setup. Nobody is going to admit to being Cop or Jailkeeper and certainly nobody would admit to being scum, and being an open setup the only thing to claim is Visitor. Co-ordinating a visitation plan is also dumb IMO, assuming Cop and Jailer claim Visitor, they're only gonna lie about who they visit, and if that lie gets picked up on, it puts them in a bad position where scum could steer a mislynch of the major powers. Plus we're not accounting for someone being AWOL and not actually sending in a target, which would mean it gets randomized and that would throw off the whole plan (I mean, it's compulsive visitor, which means it will happen regardless).
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popstop
6x Platinum Member
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Post by popstop on May 20, 2016 17:57:34 GMT -5
I'm not looking at no lynch as an option in terms of giving up, but more in terms of playing the odds. Since Pulse town has an abysmal history of nailing Mafia the first day (seriously when did it last happen? I can't remember other than icant's meltdown), I was thinking we could mitigate that damage by going into D2 with one more person than we normally would have. Even if we don't follow Cynthia's plan, we would cumulatively have more information on D2 than anything we have now, so our lynch would be more informed.
We have a few days to figure this out. Perhaps there will be a clear answer that will upend everything, but history has traditionally proven otherwise, so I am suggesting it.
And I still like Cynthia's plan, but I'm hesitant to elaborate because I don't want to help mafia.
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Post by josh on May 20, 2016 20:07:59 GMT -5
It is Day 1.
Deadline has been set for 05/23/2016 at 11:59:59 PM ET.
It takes 6/10 votes to lynch!
Day 1 Vote Count 5:
Albie: LBTrocks Az: Kunt, Cynthia LBTRocks: WotUNeed Libra: Narwhals, Az Max: Albie, Popstop
Not Voting: Libra, Max
#Mod: If Jailkeeper targets scum that is arming for the night, the Jailkeeper will stay alive and the arming will essentially be wasted. Neither the Jailkeeper nor the scum will be notified of anything, though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 20:27:55 GMT -5
Not time to respond at length to everyone right now but was doing a quick check-in want to clarify for Albie why it's a bad idea to role claim on D1. This game is an open set up with only two town power roles. mafia would be stupid to claim to be either of those roles b/c the people who hold them would immediately know they're lying. therefore mafia will just claim to be compulsive visitors and then snipe off the outed jailkeeper and cop. even in a closed setup it's not a good idea because as Wot stated, you're giving mafia a hit list and they're going to go for all the power roles first. my identity game was unique in that almost everyone was a gladiator so it would have been safe to do a mass role claim, but it was closed so there was no way for any of the players to think it was a good idea. (Off-topic but I kind of want to run that game again, as an open setup, just to see if it would go better.)
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Libra
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Post by Libra on May 20, 2016 20:28:49 GMT -5
OK, so with nothing better to do on a Friday night, Ben Carson (that's me) has some reading to catch up on. I'll let y'all ponder the implications of that prospect.
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LBTrocks
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Post by LBTrocks on May 20, 2016 22:07:54 GMT -5
In terms of Cynthia’s plan, I’m torn, but at this point I might be leaning towards it being not the best idea? Aside from some holes/flaws that others have mentioned about it, I feel like scum could probably find a way around it considering it is all pre-determined. I worry about them being able to find a strategy to use it against us, and some others in the thread have already posted some examples of what that strategy could consist of. I also don’t like how it essentially takes away a player’s choice to do what he/she thinks is best at the time. For example, if I think Libra is scum, I still have to visit him anyway if I follow through on the coordination plan as agreed. The compulsive visitor, by nature of the role, would want to target someone they believe to be town in order to avoid the possibility of being shot and killed. Also, let’s say the Jailkeeper targets Libra or me, thus protecting me from getting killed. There’s no way myself (or any other townie in the game) would know that that is what happened unless the Jailkeeper admits to it the next day, which they likely wont do, and we could therefore come to the wrong conclusion that Libra isn’t scum and/or didn’t arm himself, therefore I’m still alive. So like I said earlier today, I thought the coordinated visits were a good idea on paper, but it is variables like this that make me question just how useful for town this pre-determined visiting will really be. Also, and this one is definitely more of a stretch, another thing that crossed my mind is that this coordination idea was actually originated from scum. It could not only be a way for one of the scum members to look town, but they could have already devised a plan in the QT to ‘get’ town if town goes along with said plan. Not accusing Cynthia of being scum, and like I said I do feel this is more of a stretch, but I figured I’d mention it anyway as it did cross my mind. With all that said, what I’m still a bit conflicted on is whether or not Cynthia’s visiting plan is better than having no plan at all. Ugh, trying to figure out how to best handle this setup makes my head hurt lol. Maybe eventually we should all vote on it as the deciding factor on if we do it or not? I won't be back on until later tonight, but in the meantime I have tried reading through the thread on my phone. I haven't had much time to fully reason through the coordination that Cynthia suggested. However, at first glance it doesn't look bad on paper and I am definitely not against it. That said, I would like to give it some more thought when I actually have time and access to a computer, just to make sure there's little to no holes in the plan that could help scum out somehow. Essentially, I think we have to make sure that the benefits to town greatly outweigh any benefits to scum. I would like to read what Max said again, because I think it made sense, but I feel there are variations to what he pointed out and I think we might benefit from discussing that further. However, I am a little discouraged about the mods not knowing how they would resolve the whole Jailkeeper targeting a PGO thing. Because how that plays out is going to add a different dynamic to many of the scenarios and strategies we might have. So basically, you might have opinions and you can summarize the thread? Vote: LBTrocksWell when you say it like that lol. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted anything until I could delve more into the game then, but I wasn’t going to be around until tonight and I wanted to at least check in, let everyone know that I would be back later tonight, and offer a few initial thoughts that I had about the coordination suggestion. I remember in josh’s God Redacted game we had a discussion about activity level and it was mentioned that it is better to come in and offer at least something than to not do anything at all, even if busy irl. Hence why I made that post. Also, looking back, Albie basically did the exact same thing the post before me. The difference is he came back much sooner to share his thoughts. Also, in regards to Albie and popstop, while it is not a horrible idea to think back on how people have played in previous games, I think a player’s actions and how they’re playing in the current game are much more important. I liked how Albie went and discussed every player in the game, but his comments were generally about their gameplay in past games, not so much thoughts about them in this game. Granted, he did acknowledge that in his post, but I didn’t find it particularly helpful. I’m glad Albie asked if role-claiming now would be a good idea instead of just suggesting it, but still it did make me raise raise an eyebrow. Never a good idea to role claim so early. Another thing that isn’t sitting right with me is how popstop suggested a No Lynch for D1. Even though he did admit that’s usually terrible gameplay and somewhat explained himself as to why he thinks it might be a good idea this time, I don’t really like or agree with the argument that “well since we likely won’t catch scum on D1 anyway, we might as well do a No Lynch and be ahead one townie on D2 and this setup allows us to gain more info D2 anyway.” No Lynch would also mean that we would have no lynch to examine come D2, so we couldn’t see who was or wasn’t on the lynch and try to figure things out from that. I wouldn’t mind him explaining in more detail on why he thinks this is a good idea? Based on what he’s said so far, I’m not quite following his logic on this. So, for now: Vote: popstop
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popstop
6x Platinum Member
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Post by popstop on May 20, 2016 23:02:50 GMT -5
As far as previous play, I was impressed with how Cynthia moved town to real discussion quickly on the last mafia, and wanted to help keep that run going. Ofc current actions are important. But I asked that question when this game had just started so there were no "current actions" to explore. You, for example. At the time albie wrote that, what was he supposed to get out of your "hmm, here's what's happened so far - I'll talk more later?" I fet that informing people of any tells or personality characteristics to look out for based on our previous experience might be relevant, and gets discussion going. But I guess people would rather circle jerk over the set-up for another day.
I have already given clarification on why I think no lynch could be an option. Because of the nature of this set-up, which is different than other games I've played. We will all have entered night actions on N1 and so there is more information. Now I'm not going to dig in my heels on the no lynch idea if no one is interested. But I am throwing it out there because we do this same goddamn thing every game where we argue for five days and then panic vote a townie.
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Libra
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Post by Libra on May 20, 2016 23:57:30 GMT -5
OK yeah nevermind I've just requested replacement. :( Sorry guys.
I went into this week thinking I'd have plenty of time to play - then the game got delayed and I've had things come up ever since Tuesday night, and basically going forward I don't think I'm going to have the time I thought I'd have. Best to let someone else in on the action before we go too much farther.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 0:09:45 GMT -5
Skimmed the thread. Too tired to reply at length, but I'll be around tomorrow.
I don't think No Lynch is a good option because all we'd be doing is delaying the inevitable first lynch anyway, but at the expense of one of our players.
Popstop, I get what you're saying about not giving mafia ideas, but I think that boils down to differences in playstyle. Having an informed town who respects the mafia is more important to me than not giving them any ideas. If you and I thought of it, then nothing is stopping them from doing so either. Putting it out there for everyone to keep in mind going forward is more important to me than running the risk of it actually happening and everyone scrambling, which is so often the case when unexpected day starts occur.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 0:17:05 GMT -5
I'll throw out a question for the sake of it. I'd like as many people to answer as possible, if at all possible.
– LBTRocks vs Narwhals. Who is more suspicious, and why? – What does everyone think of WotUNeed at the moment? – Who is the most "expendable" member of town? Answer based on what has occurred this game, not "Max always gets confused, so him." (No shade, I'm just assuming Max will answer this himself because he always does when I ask this question lmao) – Where and when do you think the Cop will see the most utility? – Same question as above, but applied to the Jailkeeper now that we know it roleblocks any armed scum.
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