Taylor Swift - "Look What You Made Me Do"

[ItGirl]

The song is not well liked?

Is that the hill you want to die on?

I guess.

Imagine if she had promoted it.

[KeepDeanWeird]

I love the hysteria here. TS comes off smash 1989, including the full pivot to pop. She's already scored to Top 5 hits on her return - without a single public appearance - radio is jumping on a promo single and she'll soon have 2 Top 20 Pop radio hits. Yeah, it's a disaster.

Also, keep in mind, that LWYMMD was probably original slated to drop a couple of weeks earlier, but for the trial. The video was in can for almost 3 months! The college football kick-off promo for RFI would have been stupid to postpone.

From the beginning, I said that LWYMMD was going to have a relatively short life. I figured the 2nd radio single would be issued 3rd week in October to pave way for album launch. Looks like they may not need that.

[theflying]

^^^ I have no idea if that's toward me, but, uh, there's no hill and no one's dying on it.

And the lack of promotion is deliberate.

[Au$tin]

Sept 19, 2017 13:04:05 GMT -5 theflying said:

What is so hard to grasp about that concept?

Because it's not true and you're pretending to yourself.

You're just wrong about this. I can't put it any other way. You can't grasp it. I'm sorry. We're done here. I'm throwing in the towel. This does not mean you "win," though. You don't deserve that satisfaction.

Sept 19, 2017 13:04:05 GMT -5 theflying said:

We debate this as the song has over a thousand bullet, is #1 in the country, and #2 on iTunes. I love coming to Pulse -- and yet if someone wanted to parody Pulse, this would be exactly the conversation to look at.

I can't help but think you are the reason why. Typical Pulse indeed. :sip2:

[tinawina]

Sept 19, 2017 13:04:05 GMT -5 theflying said:

This whole discussion is just for fun. If you're not enjoying it than there's many other threads, you know.

Huh? I am not the one over here blowing a gasket over the RFI debate, you are. I mean it's amusing but I honestly am beginning to worry abut you a bit. LOL

But carry on with your bad self. Slay those non-believer dragons! Or something. Heh.

[theflying]

Sept 19, 2017 13:07:10 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Sept 19, 2017 13:04:05 GMT -5 theflying said:

Because it's not true and you're pretending to yourself.

You're just wrong about this. I can't put it any other way. You can't grasp it. I'm sorry. We're done here.

Who's winning? Taylor Swift. Again, a bit of a misplaced identifying of the core-focus.

[SPRΞΞ]

Born This Way is not culturally relevant, lol. It has like zero recurrent play. All of the Fame singles, Lovegame aside, are vastly more relevant in the GP's mind.

Unless you're a gay person with a Gaga playlist playing in your car or the gym, it's not remembered.

As for LWYMMD, the good news is that there isn't really anything too close behind it to leapfrog her, so she could snatch the #1 if it lasts long enough. But I think both 1D members will get their #1 first.

[Au$tin]

I would just like to throw it out there that no one was ever trying to say "Born This Way" and "Look What You Made Me Do" were having the same impact on anything. "Born This Way" was only brought in because its run on pop radio has so far been really similar to this song's run, and since this is a site where we love to discuss chart stats, it was a legitimate discussion that made perfect sense and wasn't ruining anyone's fun.


Until someone had to go and turn it into an argument over the song's cultural impact. I don't know who, though. All I see are blank spaces. :sip2:

[theflying]

Well, yeah, because once again it perfectly demonstrates the absurdity of taking a very important song that kicked off an album and was pivotal to her brand, that broke down some pop radio barriers and lodged six weeks at #1, and saying it could've done better.

That song is a perfect example of doing what it needed to do even if it didn't have crazy longevity.

[matty005]

Sept 19, 2017 13:29:12 GMT -5 theflying said:

Well, yeah, because once again it perfectly demonstrates the absurdity of taking a very important song that kicked off an album and was pivotal to her brand, that broke down some pop radio barriers and lodged six weeks at #1, and saying it could've done better.

That song is a perfect example of doing what it needed to do even if it didn't have crazy longevity.

Maybe if the rest of that era would have performed better, that song would be looked at more favorably?

[theflying]

Sept 19, 2017 13:34:11 GMT -5 matty005 said:

Sept 19, 2017 13:29:12 GMT -5 theflying said:

Well, yeah, because once again it perfectly demonstrates the absurdity of taking a very important song that kicked off an album and was pivotal to her brand, that broke down some pop radio barriers and lodged six weeks at #1, and saying it could've done better.

That song is a perfect example of doing what it needed to do even if it didn't have crazy longevity.

Maybe if the rest of that era would have performed better, that song would be looked at more favorably?

Very possible. If you were to just isolate that song and album launch alone, it's hard to see how they could have asked for much more than what they got.

Album launches by superstars are hard. A song that spends more than a few weeks at number one tends to mean that song has become a kind of phenomenon that was has an organic component -- on TOP of the slew of factors that are more or less about luck.

When you're an established super star launching an album, if you're doing any kind of traditional "launch first massive single" rollout campaign, by default it's not going to have the organic factors of something like "Call Me Maybe" or "All About That Base" or "Bodak Yellow" (just three examples that come to mind). Superstars are using the machine.

When you're an established super star releasing your smash first single, even then it's really rare to see them come out with a song that uses the machine to rocket to #1, and THEN organically connects in a way that allows it to STAY #1. I mean even if a song does organically connect, most of the time it does that without being at #1.

The point of all this being: If you want to talk about metrics of success that have more nuance than just the amount of #1 weeks a song has lodged, you have to consider the world from which that song was birthed. Because "Born This Way" and "LWYMMD" aren't coming from the same world as other song's that smash due to other factors.

[Normi]

I don't like your little games.

I almost forgot about his and when I revisited it - I loved it again

[jjose712]

Sept 19, 2017 12:11:20 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Sept 19, 2017 11:55:42 GMT -5 theflying said:

Born This Way has remained pretty damn culturally relevant as far as pop songs go -- and it was MASSIVE for securing Gaga's legion of fans and for launching that album.

It was also a courageous song to release, to kick off an album with. It really helped to completely break down the walls of addressing LGBT people in mainstream pop radio.

You're talking about numbers -- I have no idea how in anyway it didn't do its job -- unless, AGAIN, the only metric is that a song has to be #1 for ten weeks or something.

LWYMMD wishes it had the cultural relevancy and impact of that massive song.

Has it really remained relevant? Other than the Halftime show performance, I haven't heard that song in public in years. Was the song the reason for Born This Way's massive opening, or was it the $0.99 sale at Amazon?

It was courageous, I'll give you that. Wait, it "completely broke down the walls"? Then where are the slew of LGBT songs and artists?

"You're talking about numbers" - correct! We like to do that in a community centered around the discussion of the damn charts. "I have no idea how in anyway it didn't do its job" - did anyone claim otherwise? "unless, AGAIN, the only metric is that a song has to be #1 for ten weeks or something" - Now you're just taking words and manipulating them into some crazy rhetoric that you think we all have.

"LWYMMD wishes it had the cultural relevancy and impact of that massive song." - This sentence just wasn't necessary.



Look. We are fans of charts here. We love to see our favorite songs max out their potential on the charts. "...Ready for It?" specifically is making sure "Look What You Made Me Do" isn't going to do that, and that makes chart fans upset. It does not mean people don't think it's not a success. You are the one implying that.

I have to disagree with that. Maybe Sam Smith is the only gay singer with massive success but the truth is the number of openly gay singers with top 40 hits is way bigger than in previous decades.
I don't going to say than being openly gay don't put a hurdle in your way to a successful musical career, but right now there's a chance of a successful mainstream career something that was extremely difficult in the past
I wouldn't say Born this way did that, but it opened the way to add lgbt themes to the lyrics and there were several examples of successful singles in recent years with those kind of lyrics (or even videos addressing the theme)

[KeepDeanWeird]

Sept 19, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -5 theflying said:

^^^ I have no idea if that's toward me, but, uh, there's no hill and no one's dying on it.

And the lack of promotion is deliberate.

I never direct comments to anyone anonymously. I would quote you. It was simply a general observation for this various threads on Pulse (this one, H100, .reputation, etc.)

Yes, the lack of promotion is strategic and smart. The video - especially the epilogue - speak loudly and far more effective than interviews, etc.

[wjr15]

Sept 19, 2017 14:01:24 GMT -5 jjose712 said:

Sept 19, 2017 12:11:20 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Has it really remained relevant? Other than the Halftime show performance, I haven't heard that song in public in years. Was the song the reason for Born This Way's massive opening, or was it the $0.99 sale at Amazon?

It was courageous, I'll give you that. Wait, it "completely broke down the walls"? Then where are the slew of LGBT songs and artists?

"You're talking about numbers" - correct! We like to do that in a community centered around the discussion of the damn charts. "I have no idea how in anyway it didn't do its job" - did anyone claim otherwise? "unless, AGAIN, the only metric is that a song has to be #1 for ten weeks or something" - Now you're just taking words and manipulating them into some crazy rhetoric that you think we all have.

"LWYMMD wishes it had the cultural relevancy and impact of that massive song." - This sentence just wasn't necessary.



Look. We are fans of charts here. We love to see our favorite songs max out their potential on the charts. "...Ready for It?" specifically is making sure "Look What You Made Me Do" isn't going to do that, and that makes chart fans upset. It does not mean people don't think it's not a success. You are the one implying that.

I have to disagree with that. Maybe Sam Smith is the only gay singer with massive success but the truth is the number of openly gay singers with top 40 hits is way bigger than in previous decades.
I don't going to say than being openly gay don't put a hurdle in your way to a successful musical career, but right now there's a chance of a successful mainstream career something that was extremely difficult in the past
I wouldn't say Born this way did that, but it opened the way to add lgbt themes to the lyrics and there were several examples of successful singles in recent years with those kind of lyrics (or even videos addressing the theme)

But when it comes to openly gay singers, if they use same sex pronouns "he or him" for gay male or "she or her" for a gay female, they would definitely not do as well as those who use pronouns that don't bend gender preference. Sam Smith is an example of that. Songs like Stay With Me and I'm Not The Only One do not make any references to a male lover; the songs don't reveal the gender of his lover. If he did use male pronouns, I doubt he would've seen the success that he did because many people, including radio stations in more conservative areas, would've shunned him.

[theflying]

Sept 19, 2017 14:09:50 GMT -5 KeepDeanWeird said:

Sept 19, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -5 theflying said:

^^^ I have no idea if that's toward me, but, uh, there's no hill and no one's dying on it.

And the lack of promotion is deliberate.

I never direct comments to anyone anonymously. I would quote you. It was simply a general observation for this various threads on Pulse (this one, H100, .reputation, etc.)

Yes, the lack of promotion is strategic and smart. The video - especially the epilogue - speak loudly and far more effective than interviews, etc.

It was for the poster above you. Who referenced a hill. ;)

[tinawina]

Sept 19, 2017 13:53:24 GMT -5 theflying said:

When you're an established super star releasing your smash first single, even then it's really rare to see them come out with a song that uses the machine to rocket to #1, and THEN organically connects in a way that allows it to STAY #1. I mean even if a song does organically connect, most of the time it does that without being at #1.

The point of all this being: If you want to talk about metrics of success that have more nuance than just the amount of #1 weeks a song has lodged, you have to consider the world from which that song was birthed. Because "Born This Way" and "LWYMMD" aren't coming from the same world as other song's that smash due to other factors.

Superstars absolutely can and should use their clout to give their lead songs a big splashy debut (and her team did this BEAUTIFULLY with this song) but from there conventional wisdom would be that the song hangs around the top range (not just number one) a while and does a more traditional float towards the bottom while single number 2 rises. Lots of superstar debuts have done just that.

The concern here is that this song could fall faster than it should, which is what happens when a song that is given big superstar debut treatment is not all that well received by the public after the OMG IT'S A NEW SONG fairydust wears off. And the speculation is that Ready For It may be exacerbating the situation, even if it made a lot of noise during the splashy debut phase. There may be a price to pay for that. Maybe.

Again, she'll be fine if that happens. She's Taylor Swift during the Holiday season, she should sell regardless. All people really have to do is see her face and remember the CD is there. She might have a few more song placements in commercials/promos coming too. I bet she'll be all over TV. As long as the album doesn't have bad buzz she's set.

Worst case scenario these both are doing lackadaisically around record release time causing the next single to rise slowly. She should still be fine though. I think the only way she's really hurt is if she doesn't have some tasty radio candy on deck to release next. Knowing Taylor Swift though I doubt that's an issue.

[#LisaRinna]

Sept 19, 2017 7:43:20 GMT -5 Caviar said:

The bullet is collapsing.

Flop.

[theflying]

tinawina, it's not that what you're saying isn't "right" -- it's the timing of this conversation is what makes it Pulse parody instead of thoughtful reflection.

The song is #2 on iTunes, #5 on pop radio with over a thousand bullet, with the fastest ascending music video in history.

To me, that characterizes this debate as more hysterical than rational IMO. We have no idea how long LWYMMD will float around.

[tinawina]

Sept 19, 2017 14:43:55 GMT -5 theflying said:

tinawina, it's not that what you're saying isn't "right" -- it's the timing of this conversation is what makes it Pulse parody instead of thoughtful reflection.

The song is #2 on iTunes, #5 on pop radio with over a thousand bullet, with the fastest ascending music video in history.

To me, that characterizes this debate as more hysterical than rational IMO. We have no idea how long LWYMMD will float around.

Yeah I get that. The thing is there have been "burn hot and fast" songs before so people are reading the tea leaves a bit. I don't know if it's hysterical as much as cynical.

I agree we have no idea if it's really going to sink too fast. It's just fun speculation, and kind of low stakes speculation at that since she'll very likely sell strong through the holidays regardless. Really she'd have to strangle baby seals while kicking babies on Instagram to slow that train down. Heh.

There is really literally nothing to be worried about with Taylor. That chick will stay rich regardless.

[Fat Ass Kelly Price]

Regardless of if BTW has wide cultural relevance today or not, I don't think it was necessarily incorrect to posit that it holds a greater cultural relevance than LWYMMD does or ever will. And that's almost intrinsically based on the songs. BTW can at least always be trotted out for some type of gay celebration. This song is entirely based upon her own singular narrative in a feud that is past its expiration date. That's not gonna resonate on a greater cultural field over time. It's very of-the-moment in regards to its impact.

[jjose712]

Sept 19, 2017 14:13:56 GMT -5 wjr15 said:

Sept 19, 2017 14:01:24 GMT -5 jjose712 said:

I have to disagree with that. Maybe Sam Smith is the only gay singer with massive success but the truth is the number of openly gay singers with top 40 hits is way bigger than in previous decades.
I don't going to say than being openly gay don't put a hurdle in your way to a successful musical career, but right now there's a chance of a successful mainstream career something that was extremely difficult in the past
I wouldn't say Born this way did that, but it opened the way to add lgbt themes to the lyrics and there were several examples of successful singles in recent years with those kind of lyrics (or even videos addressing the theme)

But when it comes to openly gay singers, if they use same sex pronouns "he or him" for gay male or "she or her" for a gay female, they would definitely not do as well as those who use pronouns that don't bend gender preference. Sam Smith is an example of that. Songs like Stay With Me and I'm Not The Only One do not make any references to a male lover; the songs don't reveal the gender of his lover. If he did use male pronouns, I doubt he would've seen the success that he did because many people, including radio stations in more conservative areas, would've shunned him.

That's totally true, but step by step. And gay or straight make your lyrics gender neutral is always a good idea.
Maybe there'll be a day when a radio dj don't get a heart attack with a same sex pronoum but till them there's always album tracks

[Caviar]

Not to derail this thread any further, but I hear BTW at pride every year during the parade.

[Deleted]

What the hell is going on? I'm tryna read it slowly but that flying dude's posts mess up my understanding every time.

[upsidedown]

I almost feel like this song is a #2 or #3 hit -- not a #1. Once the dust has settled, the impact just isn't there.

[musiciscool]

Well, skipping over three pages, and there are still arguments going on. I'll wait to see when it stops.

[jughead]

Sept 19, 2017 14:55:02 GMT -5 Fat Ass Kelly Price said:

Regardless of if BTW has wide cultural relevance today or not, I don't think it was necessarily incorrect to posit that it holds a greater cultural relevance that LWYMMD does or ever will. And that's almost intrinsically based on the songs. BTW can at least always be trotted out for some type of gay celebration. This song is entirely based upon her own singular narrative in a feud that is past it's expiration date. That's not gonna resonate on a greater cultural field over time. It's very of-the-moment in regards to its impact.

Speaking of impact, who's that daddy in your avi? And what show/movie is it from?

On topic: I love Taylor Swift.

[dbhmr]

The instrumental opener and first verse in particular are really excellent, and a striking opening for this era. I actually think the whole thing is pretty fantastic with the notable exception of that talk/shout in the second verse. It's like a record scratch, having been so swept up in it that I practically forget it's coming each time I listen to it. It just kinda kills the repeat value for me.

RFI continues to slowly grow on me, but they went with the right song to lead things off for sure.

[Deleted]

I'm still in love with this & RFI, also is this already guaranteed appearing on the Year End this year?

[leonagwen]

Sept 19, 2017 16:21:51 GMT -5 upsidedown said:

I almost feel like this song is a #2 or #3 hit -- not a #1. Once the dust has settled, the impact just isn't there.

400 million Youtube views,been in top 5 on itunes since it's release most of the time in the top 2,Top 5 in airplay after only 3 weeks,I would consider it an impact.Not just in the Usa it's #1 on the Itunes worldwide chart.