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Post by mikeymonster on Sept 27, 2019 18:40:11 GMT -5
"Iris" and "Torn" are such classics. Such a shame they couldn't smash on the Hot 100, I still hear them on the radio so often
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brady47
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Post by brady47 on Sept 27, 2019 22:39:41 GMT -5
"Torn" sounds so beautiful and timeless on the radio.
One of the best covers in history, and the video is so simple but I love it.
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85la
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Post by 85la on Sept 28, 2019 1:10:43 GMT -5
"Torn" sounds so beautiful and timeless on the radio. One of the best covers in history, and the video is so simple but I love it. wow, I didn't know it was a cover until just now!! |
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 28, 2019 2:21:22 GMT -5
I just want to say thank you for doing this! I’ve wondered about this for years.
I’m curious, would these airplay tracks have knocked down the peak positions for any other songs (or denied any songs a top 10 peak altogether)?
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renaboss
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Post by renaboss on Oct 26, 2020 19:20:24 GMT -5
Any chance we might get 95-97?
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Oct 26, 2020 19:37:48 GMT -5
Yeah it's great to see these stats, and I've always wondered what people would say if airplay-only hits had charted then but then had (relatively) low peaks; would people complain their peaks misrepresent their popularity?
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Oct 26, 2020 20:40:52 GMT -5
Yeah it's great to see these stats, and I've always wondered what people would say if airplay-only hits had charted then but then had (relatively) low peaks; would people complain their peaks misrepresent their popularity? We know that would happen, as evidenced by massive airplay hits that had no physical singles in '99-2000. "I Want It That Way" was obviously more popular than just #6, and a commercial single would have propelled it to the top. The same is true for "Bye Bye Bye", with its relatively subpar Hot 100 peak of #4. Yet less popular follow-up "It's Gonna Be Me" DID get to #1 thanks to a commercial single. A similar scenario played out in the summer of 2000 when Sisqo's "Thong Song" topped out at #3 but follow-up "Incomplete" went to #1. "Oops I Did It Again" would have done much better than #9. We saw lesser hits charting higher thanks to a sales component. Not too long after that sales dwindled to non-existent (except for Idol singles) and the Hot 100 matched up almost completely with the Airplay chart. It wasn't until digital sales kicked in in 2005 that the charts got wild again. |
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Oct 26, 2020 20:44:43 GMT -5
Yeah it's great to see these stats, and I've always wondered what people would say if airplay-only hits had charted then but then had (relatively) low peaks; would people complain their peaks misrepresent their popularity? We know that would happen, as evidenced by massive airplay hits that had no physical singles in '99-2000. "I Want It That Way" was obviously more popular than just #6, and a commercial single would have propelled it to the top. The same is true for "Bye Bye Bye", with its relatively subpar Hot 100 peak of #4. Yet less popular follow-up "It's Gonna Be Me" DID get to #1 thanks to a commercial single. A similar scenario played out in the summer of 2000 when Sisqo's "Thong Song" topped out at #3 but follow-up "Incomplete" went to #1. We saw lesser hits charting higher thanks to a sales component. Not too long after that sales dwindled to non-existent (except for Idol singles) and the Hot 100 matched up almost completely with the Airplay chart. It wasn't until digital sales kicked in in 2005 that the charts got wild again. Right. But my point is I see a lot of people gripe about songs like "Don't Speak" not charting. If it had charted and peaked at #5 or whatever, would people be griping in 2020 about its peak not representing its popularity? |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Oct 26, 2020 20:46:31 GMT -5
People will gripe about anything - so yes
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Oct 26, 2020 20:51:56 GMT -5
Even after digital sales started being added it took a year or so to stabilize and really even the playing field. (As late as 2007, labels held off releasing big radio hits to iTunes just like they did in the mid-late 90’s). So peaks were kinda wonky from 1994 - 2007)
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pkwonder
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Post by pkwonder on Oct 26, 2020 20:53:04 GMT -5
Great thread and great list of 90s classics that got screwed over by the rules of the time. If you’re tracking the data, I would be curious to see even more. Are there any other airplay songs that would have just missed the top 10 in what you have so far? (Say hypothetical top 20 hits)
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Myth X
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Post by Myth X on Oct 26, 2020 21:00:30 GMT -5
Great thread and great list of 90s classics that got screwed over by the rules of the time. If you’re tracking the data, I would be curious to see even more. Are there any other airplay songs that would have just missed the top 10 in what you have so far? (Say hypothetical top 20 hits) To be fair those classics got screwed by their labels for not releasing the physical singles. |
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Oct 26, 2020 21:02:54 GMT -5
Maybe but the artists made more on increased CD sales
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Oct 26, 2020 21:09:32 GMT -5
We know that would happen, as evidenced by massive airplay hits that had no physical singles in '99-2000. "I Want It That Way" was obviously more popular than just #6, and a commercial single would have propelled it to the top. The same is true for "Bye Bye Bye", with its relatively subpar Hot 100 peak of #4. Yet less popular follow-up "It's Gonna Be Me" DID get to #1 thanks to a commercial single. A similar scenario played out in the summer of 2000 when Sisqo's "Thong Song" topped out at #3 but follow-up "Incomplete" went to #1. We saw lesser hits charting higher thanks to a sales component. Not too long after that sales dwindled to non-existent (except for Idol singles) and the Hot 100 matched up almost completely with the Airplay chart. It wasn't until digital sales kicked in in 2005 that the charts got wild again. Right. But my point is I see a lot of people gripe about songs like "Don't Speak" not charting. If it had charted and peaked at #5 or whatever, would people be griping in 2020 about its peak not representing its popularity? True, maybe not. The airplay peaks would be forgotten relative to the Hot 100 stats, which is what happened to the songs I mentioned above. Even to the Rembrandts song somewhat, since it's not usually thought of in the same regard as Iris, Don't Speak, or Torn because of its belated Hot 100 run. Unfortunately even factoring the airplay numbers into Hot 100 positions as iHype did will never really reflect what the charts coulda/shoulda looked like then without singles available for all songs. Some of those airplay #1s obviously would have topped the Hot 100 with a sales component, and then you have lower charting airplay songs that could have been surprise #1s; Mariah's "Butterfly" had a similar airplay run to "My All"...if she had released a single would "Butterfly" have gone to number one as "My All" did? Sales for albums driven by airplay-only hits (like Tragic Kingdom and Left Of The Middle) give us some indication of overall popularity but the sad thing is we'll never truly know. |
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Oct 26, 2020 21:39:54 GMT -5
Then there were the weird ones like Still Not a Player or Ghetto Supastar, which *just* made it into the Hot 100 by virtue of a ‘hard to find’ 12” vinyl single. Or those irritating limited shipments the likes of which had My Heart Will Go On or Ice Ice Baby be #1 for weeks less than they could have been. Gosh I hated the 90s tricks.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Oct 26, 2020 21:56:47 GMT -5
Any chance we might get 95-97? I know lots of people ( jebsib and others come to mind) have asked about pre-1997. So I was just looking into doing them once again, and realized why I started with 1997. In 1996 for example, the average #10 song seemed to do 70-85 points per week. That translates to do 70-85 million audience impressions. In the mid 90s usually maybe only top 2 at the most on radio did 70 million+ audience per week, which would be enough to make Hot 100 top 10 without sales. "I Love You Always Forever" was the first song to actually even do 100 million audience impressions in a week, because radio numbers were just lower then. In 1996 there was only a total of 3 airplay-only songs that reached top 5 on radio (Don't Speak, Killing Me Softly, Head Over Feet). In 1995 there was only 1 (I'll Be There for You). So essentially, there's only about 4 airplay-only songs that had a potential to crack top 10. And if they did it would've been low top 10 peaks, seeing as the top 5 probably averaged 100+ points any given week. I can try to do the weeks those songs peaked on radio, but other than that, there would be no interesting shakeups in top 10s before 1997. Sales still were heavily counted, the sales market for singles was well alive you needed around 50,000+ sales to make top 10 on the sales chart in any given week. Compare that to 2020 for example, where most weeks, the #1 selling song doesn't even sell 50,000. |
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renaboss
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Post by renaboss on Oct 27, 2020 4:55:25 GMT -5
Then there were the weird ones like Still Not a Player or Ghetto Supastar, which *just* made it into the Hot 100 by virtue of a ‘hard to find’ 12” vinyl single. Or those irritating limited shipments the likes of which had My Heart Will Go On or Ice Ice Baby be #1 for weeks less than they could have been. Gosh I hated the 90s tricks. What is worse, 90s tricks or 20s tricks? |
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Oct 27, 2020 8:00:32 GMT -5
I think 2020's tricks are more damaging as they skew the GP's perception of what the biggest hits really are.
The 90s was just an inconsistent mess.
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leoapp
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Post by leoapp on Oct 27, 2020 18:32:29 GMT -5
I know Britney's team wanted massive album sales.
But i believe with physical singles:
- Sometimes, Lucky and (maybe) Im A Slave 4 U could've been top 10 Hot 100
- You Drive Me (Crazy) and Oops I Did It Again could've been #1 Hot 100
- Dont Let Me Be The Last To Know and Im Not A Girl could've been top 40 Hot 100/at least charted, not Bubbled Under.
Also,
Mariah's Forever and Butterfly could've been no. 2 at least in case couldnt dethrone Macarena and Candle In The Wind.
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Post by lady𝓐fan on Oct 27, 2020 19:16:22 GMT -5
It would be nice to see how country songs would've performed on the Hot 100 in the '90s. A lot of big country hits were kind of screwed over by Billboard's rules at the time.
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Jay D83
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Post by Jay D83 on Oct 28, 2020 13:03:35 GMT -5
I know Britney's team wanted massive album sales. But i believe with physical singles: - Sometimes, Lucky and (maybe) Im A Slave 4 U could've been top 10 Hot 100 - You Drive Me (Crazy) and Oops I Did It Again could've been #1 Hot 100 - Dont Let Me Be The Last To Know and Im Not A Girl could've been top 40 Hot 100/at least charted, not Bubbled Under. Also, Mariah's Forever and Butterfly could've been no. 2 at least in case couldnt dethrone Macarena and Candle In The Wind. I never understood Jive not issuing a single for "You Drive Me (Crazy)" - that version isn't even on the album!!! I had to buy that terrible Melissa Joan Hart movie soundtrack to get it. |
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Enyasurvivor
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Post by Enyasurvivor on Oct 28, 2020 23:34:53 GMT -5
I know Britney's team wanted massive album sales. But i believe with physical singles: - Sometimes, Lucky and (maybe) Im A Slave 4 U could've been top 10 Hot 100 - You Drive Me (Crazy) and Oops I Did It Again could've been #1 Hot 100 - Dont Let Me Be The Last To Know and Im Not A Girl could've been top 40 Hot 100/at least charted, not Bubbled Under. Also, Mariah's Forever and Butterfly could've been no. 2 at least in case couldnt dethrone Macarena and Candle In The Wind. I never understood Jive not issuing a single for "You Drive Me (Crazy)" - that version isn't even on the album!!! I had to buy that terrible Melissa Joan Hart movie soundtrack to get it. You just answered your own question |
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 24, 2021 10:33:40 GMT -5
Right. But my point is I see a lot of people gripe about songs like "Don't Speak" not charting. If it had charted and peaked at #5 or whatever, would people be griping in 2020 about its peak not representing its popularity? True, maybe not. The airplay peaks would be forgotten relative to the Hot 100 stats, which is what happened to the songs I mentioned above. Even to the Rembrandts song somewhat, since it's not usually thought of in the same regard as Iris, Don't Speak, or Torn because of its belated Hot 100 run. Unfortunately even factoring the airplay numbers into Hot 100 positions as iHype did will never really reflect what the charts coulda/shoulda looked like then without singles available for all songs. Some of those airplay #1s obviously would have topped the Hot 100 with a sales component, and then you have lower charting airplay songs that could have been surprise #1s; Mariah's "Butterfly" had a similar airplay run to "My All"...if she had released a single would "Butterfly" have gone to number one as "My All" did? Sales for albums driven by airplay-only hits (like Tragic Kingdom and Left Of The Middle) give us some indication of overall popularity but the sad thing is we'll never truly know. I get your general point/question, but as a Mariah fan I can safely say no "Butterfly" would not have gone to #1. It was charting at the same time as "Candle in the Wind 1997." It would have been nice to see a top 10 peak on the Hot 100, though (and for "Forever" in 1996). |
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Post by thirddegree50123 on Apr 21, 2022 21:24:41 GMT -5
Epic thread!
Surprised "Real World" and "The Way" wouldn't have scraped the top 10. Are the Hot 100 Airplay charts for this time period out there somewhere to look at? Also, what about the Top 40 Tracks chart from later on?
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 21, 2022 21:42:37 GMT -5
Doesn’t the billboard site have then? Or is that a subscription thing?
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Kelly's 10th Fan
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Post by Kelly's 10th Fan on Apr 22, 2022 12:04:10 GMT -5
Epic thread! Surprised "Real World" and "The Way" wouldn't have scraped the top 10. Are the Hot 100 Airplay charts for this time period out there somewhere to look at? Also, what about the Top 40 Tracks chart from later on? PDF links to almost every Billboard issue from December 1894 to September 2018 are here: worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Music/Billboard-Magazine.htm; it would admittedly be more tedious having to open a different tab for each week but you can find pretty much any chart's history that way. Hot 100 Airplay = Radio Songs on Billboard's website, but it's paywalled there. |
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gikem
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Post by gikem on Apr 22, 2022 13:02:52 GMT -5
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Apr 22, 2022 13:42:47 GMT -5
I don’t have time to post all of them but I can post specific pictures Med by request
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Apr 25, 2022 6:18:39 GMT -5
I think a weird twist on this thread would be -
"What if Sales had never gone away from 1998 - 2005"?
Would Hip / Hop & R&B still have a stranglehold on the Hot 100 during the early 2000s?
I don't think so, but nothing else was really blowing up those years.
We've talked about one-off "What-Ifs" like "Oops", "Toxic" or "Bye Bye Bye", but in general terms, I'm convinced things would have evolved differently pop-culturally.
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iHype.
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Post by iHype. on Apr 25, 2022 6:51:21 GMT -5
I think a weird twist on this thread would be - "What if Sales had never gone away from 1998 - 2005"? Would Hip / Hop & R&B still have a stranglehold on the Hot 100 during the early 2000s? I don't think so, but nothing else was really blowing up those years. We've talked about one-off "What-Ifs" like "Oops", "Toxic" or "Bye Bye Bye", but in general terms, I'm convinced things would have evolved differently pop-culturally. More than likely R&B/Hip-Hop would've still been the dominant genre, as it had the radio audience chokehold and you can't convince me songs like "Lose Yourself", "Yeah!", "In Da Club", "Crazy In Love", "Hot In Herre", "Hey Ya", etc wouldn't have had sufficient sales in addition. They were just objectively big moments in pop culture at the time. Pop/Rock would've definitely gained more footing though and we wouldn't have had it get to the point where 80%~ of the top 10 was just R&B/Hip-Hop almost any given week for years straight. I also think songs like Beautiful, Toxic, Complicated, This Love, Bring Me To Life, etc could've perhaps gone #1 with sales availability. Also an interesting concept -- what would the Hot 100/radio chart looked like if the formats instead had audience numbers similar to *present* where instead of Urban/Rhythmic having colossal audience, it's Pop/HAC that does. It does seem in retrospect like the numbers were very high, higher than they should've been for Rhythmic/Urban formats. I have a very hard time believing it truly got to the point where: Hot 100 - March 13, 2004 15. "Through The Wire" (#11 on Urban radio, #11 on Rhythmic radio, #37 on Top 40 radio) 16. "With You" (#1 on Top 40 radio, #28 on Hot AC radio) This was *actually* reflective of how lobsided in popularity those radio formats had gotten. |
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