kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Mar 1, 2021 22:20:50 GMT -5
Taylor can defend herself against whatever the f**k she wants. People cannot determine how she should or shouldn't feel. And the two jokes under fire are absolutely sexist. One uses Taylor as a benchmark for slut shaming, while the other basically says she owes her career to the men she dated. How is that okay? ^ comparing a tasteless and sexist joke about a celebrity to Holocaust is bizarre. saying the joke isn't sexist is unbelievably stupid and ignorant. she has every right to respond, especially considering how closely she worked with Netflix for her documentary that addressed sexism, ageism, double standards she's facing. go Taylor. we've heard "comedians" turn her relationships into an unoriginal punchline for more than a decade. when will they stop?
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Snowbeast
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Post by Snowbeast on Mar 1, 2021 22:35:50 GMT -5
The idea that someone responding to a slut shaming joke made about them is too much is gross. She has every right to say something. The Netflix reach is a little much IMO but the idea that she should have just let it go when she’s had incredibly sexist commentary since she was a teen is exactly what leads to so many thinking it’s no big deal. How that compares to her satiric Blank Space is beyond me. I don’t think Taylor has been “slut-shamed”. Madonna was/is slut shamed. Britney was/is slut shamed. Rihanna was/is slut shamed. Miley was/is slut shamed. Taylor was never sexualized in the way several of her peers were/are. If anything, her relationship headlines have been some of the kinder side on the female pop star spectrum. Also, the long-lived narrative and jokes aren’t coming from nowhere. She DID go through 8 notable and high-profile relationships with A-listers in the span of 9 years, and certified the media circus surrounding them by shamelessly leveraging the breakups to promote her newly released albums on SNL and other talk shows - several times. There’s no standard benchmark, but she had significantly more (and public) relationships than many of her contemporaries. That’s a fact. That’s where it’s coming from, and she poured gas on that fire for several years. It was when she wanted to move on from that narrative and promotional angle, but the rest of the world didn’t, that she got frustrated. And, rightfully so. I can see how that would be f**king annoying, but it’s not sexist when you decide it is. The media’s narrative isn’t that she’s f**ked and chucked these men, the media’s narrative is that she’s a lovesick teenager who can’t make them stay because she’s clingy and obsessive. Embarrassing? Yes. Sexist? I’m still not convinced.
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Mar 1, 2021 23:05:20 GMT -5
Considering society deems clingy and obsessive as female traits and would never have had the obsession with her significant others had she been a man, yes I'd consider it sexist.
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Snowbeast
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Post by Snowbeast on Mar 1, 2021 23:34:23 GMT -5
Considering society deems clingy and obsessive as female traits and would never have had the obsession with her significant others had she been a man, yes I'd consider it sexist. I just don’t think Taylor is a victim in this situation. I suppose I’ll have to agree to disagree with the majority in this thread. She has faced plenty of sexism from the industry, but her dating history isn’t the area. She fuelled and led the narrative of burning through them, while benefitting from the general public’s sympathy as she advertised catchy and well-written depictions of a victim mentality. I actually don’t think a man would be able to follow her blueprint because they would be deemed an asshole after PR blitz/accompanying album #3 and wouldn’t be able see the longevity she did with it. I can’t think of a man - or another woman for that matter - who has a comparable obsession with significant others because nobody else has monetized and tried to control the momentum of the PR circus like she has. I’m not sure how big of a Taylor Stan you are, but go watch her SNL promos, or her shaming Harry Styles while performing We Are Never Getting Back Together at the Grammy’s, or slamming Joe Jonas on Ellen, or the dig at Calvin Harris in the Look What You Made Me Do video. I’m just failing to see any accountability from her for writing her own headlines over the years. She’s printed the paper for the bad jokes to write themselves.
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aznsinger
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Post by aznsinger on Mar 2, 2021 0:06:59 GMT -5
Please give me examples of how she fueled and led this whole burning through exes stuff
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jodakyellow
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Post by jodakyellow on Mar 2, 2021 0:25:30 GMT -5
She knew writing that tweet would incite her fanbase to start harassing random people who worked on the show... they were chomping at the bit yesterday and she only waited until today to get in a clumsy “zinger” about Women’s History Month.
Is it a dumb joke? Yes! Is it a sexist joke? Yes! Is it part of a decade-long pattern of sexist jokes directed at Taylor? Yes! Is misogyny a serious issue? Yes! Does Taylor get to feel however she wants about it? Of course! Should she have written that tweet? ... it’s a no from me,
look... we can’t police how she feels, we can absolutely criticize how she chooses to respond to it. Pretending those are the same thing is disingenuous af
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Anticonformity
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Post by Anticonformity on Mar 2, 2021 1:26:49 GMT -5
Why is it that if peeps said, alright, make a joke, it's fine, but let's also do the Jonas brothers dating history, etc... there would be looks of
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Jay D83
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Post by Jay D83 on Mar 2, 2021 7:31:23 GMT -5
She's becoming the epitome of the entitled white woman.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Mar 2, 2021 8:36:04 GMT -5
I’m in the camp that says Taylor probably shouldn’t have made the tweet. Not because she shouldn’t call people out for making jokes at her expense, but because of what the likely reaction was going to be that would ultimately undo whatever she was hoping to achieve. Granted, that isn’t her fault but as someone who seems to know media and public response as well as she does, she should have known how it would get reported. Most articles and headlines citing her calling out the “deeply sexist” joke make it sound more serious than it is, almost mockingly so, and I’ve yet to actually see a comment supporting her that isn’t from an obvious Swifty. Is the joke in poor taste? Absolutely! Particularly considering how many other artists (men and women) with a vast dating history who have also benefited from it by making endless rotations of breakup songs. Is it sexist? I believe so. I’ve heard comments, even from people I know, who have criticized her for her dating past (sometimes from gays who I know have a much more extensive past than hers lol), which is pretty much the definition of slut shaming but never say the same about a male star as a criticism. Yet, I also think because it played into her brand that she herself embraced (even satirically so), the joke from the show itself might be more attached to her because she’s Taylor Swift rather than because she’s a woman - if that makes sense. I don’t think it would have ‘landed’ the same way if they referred to Kim Kardashian, Kate Hudson or Madonna (but maybe it could have if they used Johnny Depp, John Mayer or Larry King), but either way, as a ‘joke,’ it’s old, worn out and lazy anyway.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 2, 2021 8:52:40 GMT -5
Or, more simply, lets agree that calling out those who disrespect women is in everyone's best interest. Were they disrespecting women, or just singling out a person who has built a career on writing very publicly about her relationships? If Swift had done more to separate herself from her habit, then I could get on board more. But has she ever said she regrets using guys' names, sharing known stories in songs, sharing clues to their identities, etc? Please give me examples of how she fueled and led this whole burning through exes stuff She literally uses the names of exes Stephen and John in songs. She makes clear references to other exes in songs (like Harry's car crash in "Out of the Woods"). She hides clues to specific relationships in her album artwork and such so people can figure it out. On this same page a poster said to watch her SNL promos, her shaming Harry Styles while performing "We Are Never Getting Back Together" at the Grammys, slamming Joe Jonas on Ellen, and taking a dig at Calvin Harris in the "Look What You Made Me Do" video. She has made her relationships a career arc, and has been very specific about these men.
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Mar 2, 2021 9:35:25 GMT -5
The joke is stale, toothless and downright innocuous. Any attempt to paint it as deeply sexist/misogynistic or slut-shaming is beyond a stretch. There is very real and damaging misogyny in the industry, some of which she's tackled head on. This ain't it.
Celebrities are used for pop cultural reference punchlines all the time. In sitcoms, in stand-up, in memes, in our real lives, etc. And if celebrities threw a tantrum on Twitter every time one dropped, it's all we'd ever be talking about. I've also seen "but what about John Mayer!?" more than once in relation to this. Huh? His love-life has been a punchline for over a decade, even on sitcoms. The same way Warren Beatty's, Rob Lowe's, Donald Trump's, Elizabeth Taylor's (the list literally goes on and on) love lives and scandals were punchlines in sitcoms and in stand-up decades ago.
And as multiple posters have pointed out, she helped create this narrative. It wasn't just that Taylor wrote songs about heartbreak and her famous exes. She specifically used it as a *wink wink* marketing ploy and for publicity with multiple songs and album cycles. By doing that, it became intertwined with her persona. And the narrative isn't/never was about her being a slut for dating so many guys. Just that she was unlucky in love, messy in relationships and couldn't nail one down. Something she's even satirized in her own music. And I understand why it's frustrating for her that it hasn't fully faded away. But hey, you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes?
By even acknowledging such a lame joke, she looks overly sensitive and bothered. She's also drawing focus back to that tired serial dater narrative that isn't nearly as prevalent as it once was. On top of that, she just drew massive attention to the show and definitely not in the way she intended (I'm sure Netflix will be sending over a bouquet for the free publicity and increase in streams). This was a fail all around IMO.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 2, 2021 9:42:32 GMT -5
Or, more simply, lets agree that calling out those who disrespect women is in everyone's best interest. Were they disrespecting women, or just singling out a person who has built a career on writing very publicly about her relationships? If Swift had done more to separate herself from her habit, then I could get on board more. But has she ever said she regrets using guys' names, sharing known stories in songs, sharing clues to their identities, etc? Please give me examples of how she fueled and led this whole burning through exes stuff She literally uses the names of exes Stephen and John in songs. She makes clear references to other exes in songs (like Harry's car crash in "Out of the Woods"). She hides clues to specific relationships in her album artwork and such so people can figure it out. On this same page a poster said to watch her SNL promos, her shaming Harry Styles while performing "We Are Never Getting Back Together" at the Grammys, slamming Joe Jonas on Ellen, and taking a dig at Calvin Harris in the "Look What You Made Me Do" video. She has made her relationships a career arc, and has been very specific about these men. Uh, Stephen wasn't an ex. He was a boy she crushed on..... The only reason she used John was because it was wordplay on the whole "Dear John" Letter. Highly doubt she would throw out the same song if he had been named Mark or something. The only time Taylor has even written about her "burning through men" or anything that could be contrived as similar is when she wrote "Blank Space" that was a satirical take on the media's depiction of her dating life, not her own. Otherwise Taylor has just written songs about her experiences, romantic included, just like any other artist. The only time she might have been directly exploitative when it came to her love life (in ways that other artists aren't routinely) is during her Speak Now era with her "naming names" and etc promo. Regardless Taylor has every right to express how she feels. Yes, she likely knew ahead of time exactly how some would react to her response and obviously didn't care. Is it smart? Eh. I felt it was a bit much. I can see why she was bothered, particularly considering the platform the show is home to signed on with her documentary to explore, in part, damage of the very same nature they are apparently promoting using her name. Still, she should know millions are just looking for any reason to give her shit. lol
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 2, 2021 10:17:14 GMT -5
Were they disrespecting women, or just singling out a person who has built a career on writing very publicly about her relationships? If Swift had done more to separate herself from her habit, then I could get on board more. But has she ever said she regrets using guys' names, sharing known stories in songs, sharing clues to their identities, etc? She literally uses the names of exes Stephen and John in songs. She makes clear references to other exes in songs (like Harry's car crash in "Out of the Woods"). She hides clues to specific relationships in her album artwork and such so people can figure it out. On this same page a poster said to watch her SNL promos, her shaming Harry Styles while performing "We Are Never Getting Back Together" at the Grammys, slamming Joe Jonas on Ellen, and taking a dig at Calvin Harris in the "Look What You Made Me Do" video. She has made her relationships a career arc, and has been very specific about these men. Uh, Stephen wasn't an ex. He was a boy she crushed on..... The only reason she used John was because it was wordplay on the whole "Dear John" Letter. Highly doubt she would throw out the same song if he had been named Mark or something. The only time Taylor has even written about her "burning through men" or anything that could be contrived as similar is when she wrote "Blank Space" that was a satirical take on the media's depiction of her dating life, not her own. Otherwise Taylor has just written songs about her experiences, romantic included, just like any other artist. The only time she might have been directly exploitative when it came to her love life (in ways that other artists aren't routinely) is during her Speak Now era with her "naming names" and etc promo. Regardless Taylor has every right to express how she feels. Yes, she likely knew ahead of time exactly how some would react to her response and obviously didn't care. Is it smart? Eh. I felt it was a bit much. I can see why she was bothered, particularly considering the platform the show is home to signed on with her documentary to explore, in part, damage of the very same nature they are apparently promoting using her name. Still, she should know millions are just looking for any reason to give her s**t. lol I didn't say she can't write about her experiences/relationships. I am saying her writing so specifically about them is why she gets the attention for them that she does. Ultimately Ling-Ling explains it all very well in the post above yours.
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Post by neverduplicated on Mar 2, 2021 10:24:19 GMT -5
I think some people in this thread are missing the point about why Taylor posted. It's been years since Taylor was the tabloid queen of dating. She's released two incredibly well known and successful albums about being in a serious relationship (reputation and Lover), two incredibly well known and successful albums that largely aren't about her (folklore and evermore), and a well-known documentary about herself in which she discusses at length sexism in the music industry. And even before all that, she released "Blank Space" which was a SATIRE of her image, and it boggles my mind to see people thinking that song somehow confirms the image of her as a serial dater instead of making fun of people's obsession with it.
And yet, despite all this work she's done for many years, so many people still cling to this image of her from a decade ago, and this is because she is a woman and therefore many people want to boil her existence down to her relationship with men, as opposed to seeing her as her own person with enormous talents and a story that goes beyond her relationship with men. This is one of the ways that misogyny works in our society, that women are viewed and judged only through their relationships with men (or their children) and not as singular complex beings, the way that men are usually viewed. Men are not usually judged or thought of vis-a-vis their relationships with others, instead they are seen as their own beings. And if men are seen thought their numerous relationships, it's often in a flattering light and not meant to shame them.
Taylor is rightfully pissed off that after all the work she's done, the joke is still about her decade-old relationships with men. It's like she's not allowed to evolve or be something else because of it. And here I see people in this thread saying she shouldn't speak out for herself when she feels she's being attacked on a show that lots of people are watching. She doesn't think it's fair that she's not allowed to evolve like a man would be and has to stay stuck in the past, only being viewed through her relationships with men. She really doesn't care at this point if people are going to say she shouldn't have said something or she went too far, because that's literally what women have been told for centuries every time they speak out against misogyny. She knows that misogyny works by silencing women and shaming them for speaking out (as many of you are doing), and she fully expects feathers to be ruffled.
Where some people might be conflicted is that the severity of her response might not seem to match the severity of the joke, but at the same time, she's a grown-ass woman who's allowed to feel however she wants about the situation and respond however she wants. I say good on her if she feels that strongly about it.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 2, 2021 10:27:23 GMT -5
And yet, despite all this work she's done for many years, so many people still cling to this image of her from a decade ago, and this is because she is a woman Is it, though? Warren Beatty still has that image to a degree despite being married to Annette Bening for decades. Leo DiCaprio has jokes made about his affinity for younger women. What is the proof that people view Taylor this way because she's a woman, as opposed to it being because she's had a handful of high-profile relationships that she then wrote about in hit songs and even talked about in interviews?
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Dammn Baby
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Post by Dammn Baby on Mar 2, 2021 10:34:40 GMT -5
I'm generally not a fan of anyone trying to play judge and jury on what is and isn't acceptable in comedy. This joke is lame and tired, but it's still comedy. Comedy is not designed to be respectful, politically correct, sensitive, etc. She's in the public eye and will be a punchline in comedy as a result. You'd think by now she would have figured that out. Also, her attempting to call out Neflix for not policing their content (to her satisfaction) out of deference to her is also some bulls**t entitlement.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2021 10:35:07 GMT -5
Best most sufficient take on this I’ve read anywhere lol [
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gbaby
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Post by gbaby on Mar 2, 2021 10:35:30 GMT -5
Taylor can defend herself against whatever the f**k she wants. People cannot determine how she should or shouldn't feel. And the two jokes under fire are absolutely sexist. One uses Taylor as a benchmark for slut shaming, while the other basically says she owes her career to the men she dated. How is that okay? ^ comparing a tasteless and sexist joke about a celebrity to Holocaust is bizarre. Is it? Discrimination has violent ends. Not that difficult.
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gbaby
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Post by gbaby on Mar 2, 2021 10:35:58 GMT -5
Or, more simply, lets agree that calling out those who disrespect women is in everyone's best interest. Were they disrespecting women, or just singling out a person who has built a career on writing very publicly about her relationships? If Swift had done more to separate herself from her habit, then I could get on board more. But has she ever said she regrets using guys' names, sharing known stories in songs, sharing clues to their identities, etc? So we're doing the "she asked for it" bit?
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born
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Post by born on Mar 2, 2021 10:36:45 GMT -5
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 2, 2021 10:37:10 GMT -5
I didn't say she can't write about her experiences/relationships. I am saying her writing so specifically about them is why she gets the attention for them that she does. Ultimately Ling-Ling explains it all very well in the post above yours. I was only referencing you in your incorrect assertion about Stephen being an ex and your remark about John. The rest of my comments were a continuation of the thread's discussion.
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Dammn Baby
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Post by Dammn Baby on Mar 2, 2021 10:37:23 GMT -5
And yet, despite all this work she's done for many years, so many people still cling to this image of her from a decade ago, and this is because she is a woman Is it, though? Warren Beatty still has that image to a degree despite being married to Annette Bening for decades. Leo DiCaprio has jokes made about his affinity for younger women. What is the proof that people view Taylor this way because she's a woman, as opposed to it being because she's had a handful of high-profile relationships that she then wrote about in hit songs and even talked about in interviews? Exactly. Men are also subjects of this kind of punchline. I would agree if only women were ever targeted in this kind of joke - but that isn't the case.
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nas
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Post by nas on Mar 2, 2021 10:39:15 GMT -5
I am uncomfortable with the idea that because she dated around a bit in her early 20s, she somehow deserves to be labeled the way she has been (which is why this joke is not in a vacuum). That IS slut shaming. Perhaps not sexualizing but it is absolutely sexist in comparison to men dating around. Nothing she did in her 20s was all that unusual for a young single woman. She was painted as man hungry and a serial dater. Nothing in her musical output makes that ok, especially as half her songs are about moments in time versus full blown relationships. In today’s environment, the idea that you really should just let it go doesn’t sit well with me. Is this joke itself the end of the world? No. I still think the Netflix reach is a bit much. But it is part of a larger conversation and I will never fault someone defending themselves even when it’s not the cool thing to do.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Mar 2, 2021 10:45:38 GMT -5
Taylor is rightfully pissed off that after all the work she's done, the joke is still about her decade-old relationships with men. It's like she's not allowed to evolve or be something else because of it. And here I see people in this thread saying she shouldn't speak out for herself when she feels she's being attacked on a show that lots of people are watching. I personally don’t disagree with anything you’ve said and agree she has a right to be pissed off and certainly a right to respond. My take on it is whether her response (or even how she responded) benefits or hurts things more. A case like this might have been better had someone else spoken in Taylor’s defence instead of her defending herself unfortunately. Ultimately, I agree it’s a shitty situation and I think it sucks that because it’s relatively minor, I’m of the belief she should have let it slide on that basis alone. Some battles aren’t worth getting dirty for unless it pushes the entire cause forward and I don’t think this situation is one of those cases. But now that it’s been done, the woulda coulda stuff is pointless. Ideally, we’d see other celebs (men and women) speaking up for her because even though Taylor gets the brunt of these types of jokes often, she’s not the only one and we all know there’s a misogynistic angle to it.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 2, 2021 11:01:56 GMT -5
Best most sufficient take on this I’ve read anywhere lol [ Welcome to the internet and essentially a subset of every fandom in existence. lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2021 11:13:33 GMT -5
Best most sufficient take on this I’ve read anywhere lol [ Welcome to the internet and essentially a subset of every fandom in existence. lol Totally! Don’t mean to imply this is something specific to Taylor, it’s just funny whenever this happens and a certain subsection of whatever fandom is going ballistic try to spin it like it’s actually super deep and that the celeb/fandom is helping save the world by doing this.
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Eloqueen™
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Post by Eloqueen™ on Mar 2, 2021 11:18:57 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet and essentially a subset of every fandom in existence. lol Totally! Don’t mean to imply this is something specific to Taylor, it’s just funny whenever this happens and a certain subsection of whatever fandom is going ballistic try to spin it like it’s actually super deep and that the celeb/fandom is actually helping save the world by doing this. I never understood the level of fandom it requires to threaten the lives of people and dox them. It is especially weird with Taylor fans as Taylor is like one of the most innocuous, least threatening figures I can think of. I guess that's the point though, these people are mentally ill.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Mar 2, 2021 11:33:32 GMT -5
Were they disrespecting women, or just singling out a person who has built a career on writing very publicly about her relationships? If Swift had done more to separate herself from her habit, then I could get on board more. But has she ever said she regrets using guys' names, sharing known stories in songs, sharing clues to their identities, etc? So we're doing the "she asked for it" bit? She asked for what, though? Having a tired joke made at her expense? In that case, yes. I do think it's a lame joke and agree with a general sentiment that it's an old part of her career. I'm just saying I don't think it's sexist, and I also think Taylor made her relationships part of her career narrative which, yes, invites those jokes to be made. She also has every right to date whomever she wants for however long. I am uncomfortable with the idea that because she dated around a bit in her early 20s, she somehow deserves to be labeled the way she has been (which is why this joke is not in a vacuum). That IS slut shaming. Dating and sleeping with someone aren't the same thing. Was there a direct reference to Taylor as a slut (or other synonym)? Personally I don't think joking that someone dates a lot is necessarily slut shaming. How is it commonly viewed?
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Ling-Ling
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Post by Ling-Ling on Mar 2, 2021 12:00:26 GMT -5
So we're doing the "she asked for it" bit? So first you tried comparing it to the Holocaust? Now you're comparing it to rape? These have to be some of the most patently ridiculous hot takes I've ever seen on Pulse. And let's face it, that bar is set pretty high. Can you please approach this with some nuance of thought? Because this bludgeoning technique you're using is a major disservice to actual tragedy.
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aznsinger
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Post by aznsinger on Mar 2, 2021 12:03:58 GMT -5
Honestly because she’s such a talented songwriter, we can guess exactly who she’s talking about in her songs. However... she has never once confirmed any song is about her exes, maybe she’s confirmed dear John, or forever and always, and last kiss? I don’t remember.. BUT I don’t recall her specifically marketing herself by the exes she’s been with and what songs are about them.. she was always pestered about her famous exes by the media and tabloids.
On the other hand, make stars like Harry Styles is known to have written about her ex in “Cherry” and even people think “Two Ghosts” is about Taylor. However, his success in Fine Line is not attributed by the songs about her exes NOR is it a focal point of his narrative. The media gushes over men while writing about how many guys celebrity women date. That’s the real issue here, which means this joke is rooted in sexism. Perhaps Taylor has a lot of famous men... but it doesn’t ignore the fact that the media loves to pair a man with women while men have narratives that do not include women. And someone said it beautifully above, Taylor now has 4 albums and 2 movies that is all about her current relationship or stories that aren’t even about her. Yet she’s still the gag that she runs through men very fast?? 10 men in 10 years is fast?
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