dawhite76
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Post by dawhite76 on Jul 11, 2022 11:24:44 GMT -5
In this week's Country Aircheck, three singles by Whiskey Myers were reported to have been certified platinum. This stunned me as I have never heard of Whiskey Myers - their singles have never reached Hot Country Songs, the Hot 100 or Bubbling Under charts. Upon further research, I found that they have only twice charted on the genre Rock and Country Digital Songs Sales charts never even reaching the Top 15 on either. How is it possible that songs that are not registering on Billboard's main or streaming charts can still garner enough units to be certified?
Whiskey Myers is hardly the only act for which I have noticed this. Andy Grammer's "Don't Give Up On Me" was certified platinum, but only peaked at #101 on the Bubbling Under chart. Again, why is there such a disparity? Grammer's song reached #11 on the Adult Pop survey. But airplay is not a component of RIAA certification. How does a song that cannot even reach the Hot 100 earn RIAA certification? Is the RIAA receiving different or conflicting data than what is being used to determine Billboard's charts? Are one or the other not a true reflection of the sales and streaming that a song has?
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Jul 11, 2022 12:15:05 GMT -5
Likely the tracks just linger with low, but respectable numbers for a long time. So they never earn enough points to hit the charts, but they do earn enough for their labels to shell out the money for RIAA certs. (Remember that certifications are not automatic. They are purchased by the label. And the RIAA does indeed certify before the thresholds are reached if they believe they will be achieved relatively soon.)
Also, thanks to streaming, particularly video streaming, being a contributing factor for RIAA certs now, it really isn't all that difficult to reach gold or even platinum status.
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kimberly
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Post by kimberly on Jul 11, 2022 12:31:24 GMT -5
How does a song that cannot even reach the Hot 100 earn RIAA certification? Is the RIAA receiving different or conflicting data than what is being used to determine Billboard's charts? Are one or the other not a true reflection of the sales and streaming that a song has? many, many examples of this. as explained above, songs can be cult favorites or have a niche audience that streams it for longer periods of time. I remember first noticing this with Katy Perry's "Peacock," which was certified Platinum in 2014 without ever charting on the Hot 100 or being a single. Kali Uchis has several Platinum songs that never even hit Bubbling Under Hot 100 ("Dead to Me" & "After the Storm"). One of my favorite artists, Kiana Ledé, has never hit the Hot 100 yet but already has a Platinum single that has over 138 million streams on Spotify. you need to be in the Top 100/50/40 of a certain week to chart, but you need longevity to get RIAA certified. many songs chart without ever reaching Gold or Platinum status, and many songs miss the weekly charts but accumulate streams and sales to warrant those certifications. happens all the time, really.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 11, 2022 12:35:46 GMT -5
In this week's Country Aircheck, three singles by Whiskey Myers were reported to have been certified platinum. This stunned me as I have never heard of Whiskey Myers - their singles have never reached Hot Country Songs, the Hot 100 or Bubbling Under charts. Upon further research, I found that they have only twice charted on the genre Rock and Country Digital Songs Sales charts never even reaching the Top 15 on either. How is it possible that songs that are not registering on Billboard's main or streaming charts can still garner enough units to be certified? Whiskey Myers is hardly the only act for which I have noticed this. Andy Grammer's "Don't Give Up On Me" was certified platinum, but only peaked at #101 on the Bubbling Under chart. Again, why is there such a disparity? Grammer's song reached #11 on the Adult Pop survey. But airplay is not a component of RIAA certification. How does a song that cannot even reach the Hot 100 earn RIAA certification? Is the RIAA receiving different or conflicting data than what is being used to determine Billboard's charts? Are one or the other not a true reflection of the sales and streaming that a song has? Au$tin already gave a quality reply, but also keep in mind that platinum for a single is 1 million in sales or 150 million streams (and more so a combination of the two). So, if a Whiskey Myers song sold 200k over time and then had 120 million streams, that's platinum. I see some Whiskey Myers songs with around 30 million YouTube views and 60-70 million Spotify streams. Even with some filtering, that's nearly the amount needed without getting into other streaming services.
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dawhite76
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Post by dawhite76 on Jul 12, 2022 14:35:26 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your insights. I have always been curious about the accuracy and meaningfulness of RIAA certifications. Before streaming was a component, I would cringe when a label would boast that a song or album shipped gold or platinum. That's great, but how many people ultimately purchased the units that were shipped? How many discount bins were filled with gold or platinum records that ultimately never sold as anticipated?
As you mentioned, certification is dependent on the record company submitting the relevant information. Regardless of era, how many songs/albums have not been certified through the decades simply because the record company did not for whatever reason submit the necessary data? The "Grease" soundtrack is one of the most egregious examples. It has not been certified since 1984. Yet, I once read in Billboard about 10+ years ago that the soundtrack had sold over six million copies in the US alone at that point just in the Soundscan era years after its last 1984 certification. Why hasn't its certification been updated? Based on RIAA certifications, you cannot accurately tell whether "Grease" is as or more successful than other soundtracks which have been certified for more units.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 18, 2022 16:14:47 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your insights. I have always been curious about the accuracy and meaningfulness of RIAA certifications. Before streaming was a component, I would cringe when a label would boast that a song or album shipped gold or platinum. That's great, but how many people ultimately purchased the units that were shipped? How many discount bins were filled with gold or platinum records that ultimately never sold as anticipated? As you mentioned, certification is dependent on the record company submitting the relevant information. Regardless of era, how many songs/albums have not been certified through the decades simply because the record company did not for whatever reason submit the necessary data? The "Grease" soundtrack is one of the most egregious examples. It has not been certified since 1984. Yet, I once read in Billboard about 10+ years ago that the soundtrack had sold over six million copies in the US alone at that point just in the Soundscan era years after its last 1984 certification. Why hasn't its certification been updated? Based on RIAA certifications, you cannot accurately tell whether "Grease" is as or more successful than other soundtracks which have been certified for more units. Hmm...great question. I do know this... The Supremes have sold 100M+ (best selling girl group of all time), but Motown only certified a few records in their catalog. Motown was notoriously for not auditing record sales and this was so they did not have to pay their artists/songwriters/producers any money. They are TREMODUSLY under certified. And in the 60s, 70s, and 80s up until early '88 a song had to sell 1M units to be gold. Songs that sold 500k were not certified and album was 1M$ and/or 1M units sold until 1975. So any of the huge major artists before that time Dionne, Diana, Aretha, Ike & Tina Turner, and Gladys Knight & The Pips (just to name a few) had albums and songs to hit the 500k but did not get certified. Neither One Of Us, Soulful, Let Me Into Your Life, surpassed the 500k mark, but is not certified. Another example, all of Dionne's top ten hits have surpassed either the 500k mark or the 1M million mark (besides Heartbreaker) and more than half of those songs are not certified. He's The Greatest Dancer, Do You Know Where You're Going To are more examples of songs selling over 500k and not getting certified. There are records after the single/album certification rule change that are under certified. Forever Your Girl is around 9x platinum Mariah Carey's debut is diamond eligible I believe... Control is around 8x platinum Rhythm Nation is diamond eligible and so is her janet. album All For You is 3x platinum Jody Watley's debut should be 2x platinum Pointer Sisters break out album should be 4x platinum Toni Braxton's first two albums are diamond eligible Cece Peniston's debut is platinum eligible That's to name a few...
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 19, 2022 8:52:10 GMT -5
Toni Braxton's first two albums are diamond eligible What are their Soundscan totals? Her streaming isn't all that great, so their Soundscan totals must be pretty high. I do think Secrets did well in record clubs, not sure about her debut. :ETA: I found a Baltimore Sun article with these Soundscan totals as of early 2011: Toni Braxton - 5.135 million Secrets - 5.364 million Neither would have sold a lot more since then, and her streaming isn't all that great. I'm not sure how they are Diamond eligible.
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Au$tin
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Post by Au$tin on Jul 19, 2022 15:30:41 GMT -5
There's also a fairly simple answer as to why record companies may stop pushing for certifications. The pay off just isn't there. Let's take that Grease soundtrack example. First off, the original label is defunct, so I'm sure that's a factor, and I'm not sure who has the distribution rights for it now, so let's just refer to them as Label X. Label X has many priorities right now: new music from three different A-list artists are coming this year, they've got soundtracks coming for multiple films, and then a whole slew of smaller artists on their roster are gearing up for releases. One of the promotional tools for them is to pay the RIAA to get the certifications for other projects related to these artists/films all caught up so social media can spread the news and get the new project's name out there. It builds interest for the new stuff coming out. Something like the Grease soundtrack isn't going to be tied to anything anymore. There isn't any pay off for shelling out money to the RIAA to update its certifications other than maybe a few extra streams or sales here and there for the original soundtrack, but that's not going to be enough to recoup the money spent on the new certs.
You can apply this across artists as well. And artist can be largely undercertified because there just isn't enough payoff for it anymore. They may now be a legacy act who makes money from touring more than new releases, and no RIAA cert is going to really bring in ticket sales for a legacy act. That is even if the artist's old catalog is even on the label they're currently on now. Most legacy acts do eventually end up on new labels, such as Kelly Clarkson or Janet Jackson. Their old labels certainly aren't really eager to shell out money for updated certs when said artist isn't even on their roster anymore.
Of course, all of this could be completely avoided if the RIAA altered their business model, but for the life of me I have no idea how they would turn a profit if they started doing automatic certs. Where would income even come from at that point?
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 20, 2022 20:08:20 GMT -5
Toni Braxton's first two albums are diamond eligible What are their Soundscan totals? Her streaming isn't all that great, so their Soundscan totals must be pretty high. I do think Secrets did well in record clubs, not sure about her debut. :ETA: I found a Baltimore Sun article with these Soundscan totals as of early 2011: Toni Braxton - 5.135 million Secrets - 5.364 million Neither would have sold a lot more since then, and her streaming isn't all that great. I'm not sure how they are Diamond eligible. I see my response did not post but with TB 1 & 2 album they did sell well after their certification date (1997 & 2000). Did they sell over 10M in the US no. But diamond eligible based of off shipments. Kinda like how Daydream sold 8M in the US but got diamond of off shipments. There was a thing goin around saying Brandy's Never Say Never was diamond eligible but simply not true.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 20, 2022 20:21:25 GMT -5
What are their Soundscan totals? Her streaming isn't all that great, so their Soundscan totals must be pretty high. I do think Secrets did well in record clubs, not sure about her debut. :ETA: I found a Baltimore Sun article with these Soundscan totals as of early 2011: Toni Braxton - 5.135 million Secrets - 5.364 million Neither would have sold a lot more since then, and her streaming isn't all that great. I'm not sure how they are Diamond eligible. I see my response did not post but with TB 1 & 2 album they did sell well after their certification date (1997 & 2000). Did they sell over 10M in the US no. But diamond eligible based of off shipments. Kinda like how Daydream sold 8M in the US but got diamond of off shipments. Right, but my point was their Soundscan totals don't suggest they'd be Diamond so I was wondering where you got the info they are Diamond eligible. I posted that as of early 2011 their Soundscan totals were well under 6 million. Daydream was Diamond with a Soundscan total like 2 million higher than Toni's albums, so that implies they wouldn't be eligible. I think a lot of those things are based in stan hopedicting and not actual stats.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 20, 2022 21:29:22 GMT -5
I see my response did not post but with TB 1 & 2 album they did sell well after their certification date (1997 & 2000). Did they sell over 10M in the US no. But diamond eligible based of off shipments. Kinda like how Daydream sold 8M in the US but got diamond of off shipments. Right, but my point was their Soundscan totals don't suggest they'd be Diamond so I was wondering where you got the info they are Diamond eligible. I posted that as of early 2011 their Soundscan totals were well under 6 million. Daydream was Diamond with a Soundscan total like 2 million higher than Toni's albums, so that implies they wouldn't be eligible. I think a lot of those things are based in stan hopedicting and not actual stats. The brandy one was defiently tan hopedicting, and the Toni B was factual from research. She's 8x platinum off of shipments and their music club totals aren't even factored in which would put both almost to 7M. Is music clubs counted towards RIAA? If not I'll take Toni off the lists but the others are legit.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 6:49:00 GMT -5
She's 8x platinum off of shipments and their music club totals aren't even factored in which would put both almost to 7M. Is music clubs counted towards RIAA? If not I'll take Toni off the lists but the others are legit. Music club sales are factored into the RIAA certs; they were shipments of CDs.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 9:15:14 GMT -5
She's 8x platinum off of shipments and their music club totals aren't even factored in which would put both almost to 7M. Is music clubs counted towards RIAA? If not I'll take Toni off the lists but the others are legit. Music club sales are factored into the RIAA certs; they were shipments of CDs. Then Toni is eligible...but Arista is not going to certify her so we will have to settle for 8x platinum
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 9:27:29 GMT -5
Music club sales are factored into the RIAA certs; they were shipments of CDs. Then Toni is eligible...but Arista is not going to certify her so we will have to settle for 8x platinum But her music club sales would have already been factored into her certs. Secrets was last certified in October 2000. The large majority of its Soundscan sales and a lot of its music club sales had occurred at that point. Its Soundscan sales post-2000 aren't big, and it's likely its music club sales since then aren't huge either. There is a better argument for her debut since it was last certified in 1997, but considering its 8x platinum cert is so far above its Soundscan sales, it's clear a lot of music club sales were already factored into that cert. So, it would be more about how many club sales it had from 1997 forward. It seems like those two albums were overcertified, really.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 10:50:30 GMT -5
Hmm...I think I see your point.
To add to the list...Jody Watley's second album "Larger Than Life" should be platinum not gold....
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 12:28:16 GMT -5
To add to the list...Jody Watley's second album "Larger Than Life" should be platinum not gold.... Yeah this is likely considering it was certified Gold 2 months after release and hasn't been certified since. That gets back to earlier responses about albums not having been certified in a long time. It would be cool to see her and others get updated certs, but to a degree I guess there is no real gain for a label to put money into it.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 12:34:54 GMT -5
To add to the list...Jody Watley's second album "Larger Than Life" should be platinum not gold.... Yeah this is likely considering it was certified Gold 2 months after release and hasn't been certified since. That gets back to earlier responses about albums not having been certified in a long time. It would be cool to see her and others get updated certs, but to a degree I guess there is no real gain for a label to put money into it. There is no financial gain which is why artist who want their records certified should get them certified and not the label. So many great artists like James Brown, Stevie Wonder, The Supremes (Best selling girl group of all time), Dionne Warwick (75M singles, 25M albums), Gladys Knight, Diana, Janet, etc... are severely undercertified and it is just sad to see because record sales are kind of apart of an act's legacy. I do find it odd how Barbra Streisand, The Beatles, and Elvis have a good bit of their catalog certified but not the others.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 12:36:33 GMT -5
I wonder about Def Leppard's certifications. They have some songs with good streaming - "Pour Some Sugar on Me" of course, but a couple others as well - and likely have solid catalog sales. Hysteria was last certified in 1998, so it's surely due for an update. Pyromania was last certified in 2004, so it might be due as well. Some of that depends on whether their singles are counting toward those studio albums, or towards a hits set.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 12:43:35 GMT -5
Others to add: Hanging Tough Christina's debut
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 12:44:08 GMT -5
Yeah this is likely considering it was certified Gold 2 months after release and hasn't been certified since. That gets back to earlier responses about albums not having been certified in a long time. It would be cool to see her and others get updated certs, but to a degree I guess there is no real gain for a label to put money into it. There is no financial gain which is why artist who want their records certified should get them certified and not the label. So many great artists like James Brown, Stevie Wonder, The Supremes (Best selling girl group of all time), Dionne Warwick (75M singles, 25M albums), Gladys Knight, Diana, Janet, etc... are severely undercertified and it is just sad to see because record sales are kind of apart of an act's legacy. I do find it odd how Barbra Streisand, The Beatles, and Elvis have a good bit of their catalog certified but not the others. Wouldn't the artist still need to work with the label to get certs done, though? Presumably it's the label that has relevant data on sales/shipments. So, if a label is now defunct or if the artist is on a different label from the material in question, that likely makes it more difficult (not impossible, just difficult). I also wonder if music clubs like BMG no longer existing makes getting that data difficult. That gets back to 'lifetime consumption' versus 'consumption since last certification' as well (I posted about that in another thread). If some of that data is missing and the label has to a 'lifetime consumption,' that cert is going to fall short.
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 12:52:56 GMT -5
There is no financial gain which is why artist who want their records certified should get them certified and not the label. So many great artists like James Brown, Stevie Wonder, The Supremes (Best selling girl group of all time), Dionne Warwick (75M singles, 25M albums), Gladys Knight, Diana, Janet, etc... are severely undercertified and it is just sad to see because record sales are kind of apart of an act's legacy. I do find it odd how Barbra Streisand, The Beatles, and Elvis have a good bit of their catalog certified but not the others. Wouldn't the artist still need to work with the label to get certs done, though? Presumably it's the label that has relevant data on sales/shipments. So, if a label is now defunct or if the artist is on a different label from the material in question, that likely makes it more difficult (not impossible, just difficult). I also wonder if music clubs like BMG no longer existing makes getting that data difficult. That gets back to 'lifetime consumption' versus 'consumption since last certification' as well (I posted about that in another thread). If some of that data is missing and the label has to a 'lifetime consumption,' that cert is going to fall short. Motown has the data...but is not releasing it. Every Supremes top ten has sold at least 500k, every Supreme #1 has sold at least 1M, the really huge ones crossed 2M. All of Dionne's top ten hits sold over 500k/1M (besides Heartbreaker), and we know Scepter is defunct...but there should be a way someone can recover the data. Is it shredded? When an artist moves to a new label do they take the stats with them? Also, Stax records got Mr. Big Stuff certified 2x platinum in the 90s. It sold 2M copies during its run and there is no financial gain from that. But it guess it really is up to them to chose what and what no to get certified.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 13:02:53 GMT -5
Wouldn't the artist still need to work with the label to get certs done, though? Presumably it's the label that has relevant data on sales/shipments. So, if a label is now defunct or if the artist is on a different label from the material in question, that likely makes it more difficult (not impossible, just difficult). I also wonder if music clubs like BMG no longer existing makes getting that data difficult. That gets back to 'lifetime consumption' versus 'consumption since last certification' as well (I posted about that in another thread). If some of that data is missing and the label has to a 'lifetime consumption,' that cert is going to fall short. Motown has the data...but is not releasing it. Every Supremes top ten has sold at least 500k, every Supreme #1 has sold at least 1M, the really huge ones crossed 2M. All of Dionne's top ten hits sold over 500k/1M (besides Heartbreaker), and we know Scepter is defunct...but there should be a way someone can recover the data. Is it shredded? When an artist moves to a new label do they take the stats with them? Also, Stax records got Mr. Big Stuff certified 2x platinum in the 90s. It sold 2M copies during its run and there is no financial gain from that. But it guess it really is up to them to chose what and what no to get certified. Interestingly Motown did get a lot of Supremes stuff certified in the 1990s. That was pre-digital sales and streaming, so of course some can be updated now. Marvin Gaye's What's Going On was certified Gold in 1993. That seems really low even for then. Surely it's multi-platinum now regardless.
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jul 21, 2022 13:20:42 GMT -5
^I have 4 Marvin Gaye albums on my under-certified list:
Marvin Gaye, Every Great Motown Hit, 2,456,792, yet 1xp (3/07) Marvin Gaye, What's Going On, 1,093,000, yet Gold Marvin Gaye, Let's Get It On, 620,000, not certified Marvin Gaye, 20th Century Masters Vol Two, 697,000, not certified (2/05)
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Post by Private Dancer on Jul 21, 2022 13:31:48 GMT -5
Motown has the data...but is not releasing it. Every Supremes top ten has sold at least 500k, every Supreme #1 has sold at least 1M, the really huge ones crossed 2M. All of Dionne's top ten hits sold over 500k/1M (besides Heartbreaker), and we know Scepter is defunct...but there should be a way someone can recover the data. Is it shredded? When an artist moves to a new label do they take the stats with them? Also, Stax records got Mr. Big Stuff certified 2x platinum in the 90s. It sold 2M copies during its run and there is no financial gain from that. But it guess it really is up to them to chose what and what no to get certified. Interestingly Motown did get a lot of Supremes stuff certified in the 1990s. That was pre-digital sales and streaming, so of course some can be updated now. Marvin Gaye's What's Going On was certified Gold in 1993. That seems really low even for then. Surely it's multi-platinum now regardless. The Supremes have a few certifications These songs are not certified just to name a few Where Did Our Love platinum Love Child 2x platinum I Hear A Symphony 1x platinum Back In My Arms Again 1platinum You Can't Hurry Love 1x or 2x platinum They have many platinum and multi platinum albums but not certified. Motown is on their bs.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 13:35:11 GMT -5
Interestingly Motown did get a lot of Supremes stuff certified in the 1990s. That was pre-digital sales and streaming, so of course some can be updated now. Marvin Gaye's What's Going On was certified Gold in 1993. That seems really low even for then. Surely it's multi-platinum now regardless. The Supremes have a few certifications These songs are not certified just to name a few Where Did Our Love platinum Love Child 2x platinum I Hear A Symphony 1x platinum Back In My Arms Again 1platinum You Can't Hurry Love 1x or 2x platinum They have many platinum and multi platinum albums but not certified. Motown is on their bs. I agree they likely have a lot of things that merit certification, I was just pointing out that Motown did some in the 1990s. I don't know why they did some and not others, though. How do you know what these other certs should be? I'd think Britney's Oops is due for a new cert. As of 2014 its Soundscan total was 9.22 million. It was last certified 10x platinum in early 2005. That essentially covers its Soundscan sales, so any music club sales it had (which probably aren't a ton considering they were dying out then) and more so streaming would surely get it to 11-12x platinum.
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jul 21, 2022 13:57:41 GMT -5
About Christina Aguilera's debut...
Album sales are at 8.283 million.
Sales Plus Streaming (SPS) is at 8.748 million.
Christina has had 4 albums certified with the RIAA since 2018. If it was eligible for 9xP, I'd think they would have certified it.
Stripped is eligible for 5xP.
SPS is at 5.239 million.
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jul 21, 2022 14:02:27 GMT -5
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 14:03:00 GMT -5
About Christina Aguilera's debut being eligible for Diamond... It's not. Album sales are at 8.283 million. Its total was 8.26 in 2014, so that shows how little most albums have sold in the past 5-10 years. So it wasn't available in music clubs at all? Or it just sold very little through them? Then why hasn't Stripped been updated?
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jul 21, 2022 14:06:18 GMT -5
^I had to go back and change my original post. Diamond was not posted here.
I'd say 9xP is very possible, but only the label knows.
Who knows about Stripped? It's an easy 5xP certification, but only the label knows why it was not updated.
Is there a strict budget for certs? No interest for older albums? Morons working there? (lol)
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Jul 21, 2022 14:10:40 GMT -5
Who knows about Stripped? It's an easy 5xP certification, but only the label knows why it was not updated. Right. My point is if that wasn't updated when it seems clearly eligible, we can't really say her debut would have been if it was eligible.
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