Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 3, 2008 15:02:42 GMT -5
Neally, those messages were posted on the Express yesterday. Album news has been so slow lately and someone found those 6 month old myspace posts talking about writing for Kelly. I have a feeling that the song they wrote may have been submitted for the country/rock/folk/blues/whatevermixture that Kelly was talking about, several months ago, that she was hoping to record. If the song Blu and Erinn wrote does appear on the upcoming album, then this album is going to be unbelievably eclectic. Mick Mars - Rock Ryan Tedder- Pop Sam and Louis - R & B Erinn and Blue - folk/country
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neally
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Post by neally on Jul 3, 2008 15:04:09 GMT -5
^^ Wow- thanks for the explanation !
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 3, 2008 16:08:13 GMT -5
Here's another picture of Kelly from the Country Music Hall of Fame. Vince Gill is there and also a beautiful country music singer who's name escapes me...
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sunpeach
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Post by sunpeach on Jul 3, 2008 16:29:48 GMT -5
I don't know... if it's country/blues, this will be her fourth album in a fourth style. I remember there being criticism that she doesn't know what she wants to be and that's a problem so she ends up copying styles instead of being original- there might be some valid criticism in that.
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 3, 2008 16:56:56 GMT -5
I don't understand that kind of thinking. Just me I guess. I don't know how loving more than one style of music is harmful to a singer. I've also never heard this talk about her copying others. she can sing multiple styles of music convincingly and imo that's a good thing. :) www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONEYGU_7EqUMaybe one day she really will title an album Pigeonhole This.
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Post by otternobetter87 on Jul 3, 2008 16:57:18 GMT -5
^lol! I was gonna say something, but I think that pretty much covers it.
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TeddyR
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Post by TeddyR on Jul 3, 2008 23:35:57 GMT -5
Vince Gill is there and also a beautiful country music singer who's name escapes me... That would be Vince's wife Amy. She was the one who made "My Grown-Up Christmas List" a popular Christmas song.
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crewfan20
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Post by crewfan20 on Jul 3, 2008 23:57:27 GMT -5
Vince Gill is there and also a beautiful country music singer who's name escapes me... That would be Vince's wife Amy. She was the one who made "My Grown-Up Christmas List" a popular Christmas song. That's Amy Grant and Vince's wife. She was one of the trailblazers for contempory christian music. She also had some crossover pop hits in the late 80's and early 90's. Wow that's cool that now Kelly has met Michael W. Smith and Amy Grant!
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 4, 2008 6:52:10 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I knew she was somebody in country music, but since it's not my thing she's just a face I recognized. What a pretty woman!
Thanks for the tidbit about MGUCL timmay, I just listened to it on youtube...lovely!!
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ƒreakshow
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Post by ƒreakshow on Jul 4, 2008 7:58:37 GMT -5
That would be Vince's wife Amy. She was the one who made "My Grown-Up Christmas List" a popular Christmas song. I love Kelly's version of that.
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hannah
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Post by hannah on Jul 4, 2008 9:29:32 GMT -5
That would be Vince's wife Amy. She was the one who made "My Grown-Up Christmas List" a popular Christmas song. I love Kelly's version of that. same. i love the picture with her & vince, thanks for sharing!
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luver
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Post by luver on Jul 4, 2008 10:13:25 GMT -5
I don't know... if it's country/blues, this will be her fourth album in a fourth style. I remember there being criticism that she doesn't know what she wants to be and that's a problem so she ends up copying styles instead of being original- there might be some valid criticism in that. That criticism really hasn't been leveled at her since Thankful came out, when she was going to be criticized no matter what she did for being an unproven artist coming off a reality show considered no better than a Star Search 2.0 at the time. However, the criticism that Kelly didn't know what she wanted has never been valid. She stated it was always her intention with her first album to show her versatility in order to open up her options for the direction she would go with her music. It was her desire not to be immediately pigeonholed. If anyone remembers, the prevailing thought at the time was that she would lean more towards a ballad driven career in the vein of a Celine Dion. She pretty much shattered that perception right out of the gate with Miss Independent. Add that to the fact that no one could predict the content of Breakaway or My December or the upcoming album and I would say she has suceeded in her goal of not being boxed in by others expectations. Thankful was criticized as not being "cohesive", yet when she produced My December she then became too cohesive because the album was labeled as "too dark", "too negative". There were no "happy" songs. It just goes to show that critics will always find something to criticize because that is what they do. It doesn't make the criticisms valid. Not only because a critics judgement is just one person's subjective opinion, but also because most critics seem to be tucked neatly into their own little boxes of acceptable critical analysis moreso than Kelly ever has been or probably ever will be boxed in with the music she produces. If Kelly's critics were actually tuned in to talent and potential then they would have seen the talent and potential in Kelly on American Idol like so many watching did. They wouldn't have bowed down to the sentiment that anyone associated with the show should be immediately dismissed as a flash in the pan without being given a chance, but that is what they did by regularly proclaiming her 15 minutes were almost up for the first two years of her career. If Kelly's critics were tuned into judging the music on it's own merits then they wouldn't have been so eager and so happy to label Breakaway a flop in week two of it's release based on a "massive" 34% sales drop, but that is what they did. If Kelly's critics were tuned into artistry then they would have listened to the songs on My December and seen the merit/versatility of an artist who can write/sing heartbreaking songs like Sober/Irvine, jump to the humor and sarcasm of Chivas/How I Feel and the intense emotions in songs like Hole/Never Again. It's really not difficult at all to see the talent in Kelly, not only for her vocal prowess but also as a songwriter and a poised and intensely emotional performer. In a lot ways critics choose not to see it because they don't want to see it. They want her to fit in the box of being a pop singer who does what she is told because that is what they understand. They don't understand that a young woman with a phenomenal voice and massive commercial success also possesses the qualites that they want to reserve as the sacred ownership of singer/songwriter indie artists. They don't understand that she is a lover of music, not a lover of retreaded pop hooks. Critics worth their salt won't hold Kelly to the limited requirements of a pop pincess. Artistry should involve creativity and stepping outside of the expectations others what to impose on you. Better to be criticized for expanding your boundaries than for doing the same thing over and over and becoming stale. Kelly obviously followed her own path with My Decmeber. That speaks more to her credibility as an artist and her appeal as being musically unpredictable than if she had produced Breakaway 2.0, received a comparable promotion budget and sold 4 million albums. The fact that not one person in Kelly's fandom or in the industry can confidently predict the subject matter, genre leanings or almost anything else about the album is something to be celebrated in this environment of cookie cutter muscial product. The reason no one can predict the content of Kelly's album is not because she doesn't know who she is. It can't be predicted because she possesses the combination of a rare versatility of talent and artistic curiosity that will allow her to take her music in a myriad of directions and do it credibly.
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 4, 2008 10:47:42 GMT -5
I don't know... if it's country/blues, this will be her fourth album in a fourth style. I remember there being criticism that she doesn't know what she wants to be and that's a problem so she ends up copying styles instead of being original- there might be some valid criticism in that. That criticism really hasn't been leveled at her since Thankful came out, when she was going to be criticized no matter what she did for being an unproven artist coming off a reality show considered no better than a Star Search 2.0 at the time. However, the criticism that Kelly didn't know what she wanted has never been valid. She stated it was always her intention with her first album to show her versatility in order to open up her options for the direction she would go with her music. It was her desire not to be immediately pigeonholed. If anyone remembers, the prevailing thought at the time was that she would lean more towards a ballad driven career in the vein of a Celine Dion. She pretty much shattered that perception right out of the gate with Miss Independent. Add that to the fact that no one could predict the content of Breakaway or My December or the upcoming album and I would say she has suceeded in her goal of not being boxed in by others expectations. Thankful was criticized as not being "cohesive", yet when she produced My December she then became too cohesive because the album was labeled as "too dark", "too negative". There were no "happy" songs. It just goes to show that critics will always find something to criticize because that is what they do. It doesn't make the criticisms valid. Not only because a critics judgement is just one person's subjective opinion, but also because most critics seem to be tucked neatly into their own little boxes of acceptable critical analysis moreso than Kelly ever has been or probably ever will be boxed in with the music she produces. If Kelly's critics were actually tuned in to talent and potential then they would have seen the talent and potential in Kelly on American Idol like so many watching did. They wouldn't have bowed down to the sentiment that anyone associated with the show should be immediately dismissed as a flash in the pan without being given a chance, but that is what they did by regularly proclaiming her 15 minutes were almost up for the first two years of her career. If Kelly's critics were tuned into judging the music on it's own merits then they wouldn't have been so eager and so happy to label Breakaway a flop in week two of it's release based on a "massive" 34% sales drop, but that is what they did. If Kelly's critics were tuned into artistry then they would have listened to the songs on My December and seen the merit/versatility of an artist who can write/sing heartbreaking songs like Sober/Irvine, jump to the humor and sarcasm of Chivas/How I Feel and the intense emotions in songs like Hole/Never Again. It's really not difficult at all to see the talent in Kelly, not only for her vocal prowess but also as a songwriter and a poised and intensely emotional performer. In a lot ways critics choose not to see it because they don't want to see it. They want her to fit in the box of being a pop singer who does what she is told because that is what they understand. They don't understand that a young woman with a phenomenal voice and massive commercial success also possesses the qualites that they want to reserve as the sacred ownership of singer/songwriter indie artists. They don't understand that she is a lover of music, not a lover of retreaded pop hooks. Critics worth their salt won't hold Kelly to the limited requirements of a pop pincess. Artistry should involve creativity and stepping outside of the expectations others what to impose on you. Better to be criticized for expanding your boundaries than for doing the same thing over and over and becoming stale. Kelly obviously followed her own path with My Decmeber. That speaks more to her credibility as an artist and her appeal as being musically unpredictable than if she had produced Breakaway 2.0, received a comparable promotion budget and sold 4 million albums. The fact that not one person in Kelly's fandom or in the industry can confidently predict the subject matter, genre leanings or almost anything else about the album is something to be celebrated in this environment of cookie cutter muscial product. The reason no one can predict the content of Kelly's album is not because she doesn't know who she is. It can't be predicted because she possesses the combination of a rare versatility of talent and artistic curiosity that will allow her to take her music in a myriad of directions and do it credibly. All I have to say to that is...WHO ARE YOU? AND, YOU'RE AWESOME!!! What an amazing post! I agree with all that you said.
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Post by beelzebub666 on Jul 4, 2008 15:23:05 GMT -5
I agree! Excellent post!
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Bluesy
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 4, 2008 15:36:12 GMT -5
I don't know... if it's country/blues, this will be her fourth album in a fourth style. I remember there being criticism that she doesn't know what she wants to be and that's a problem so she ends up copying styles instead of being original- there might be some valid criticism in that. That criticism really hasn't been leveled at her since Thankful came out, when she was going to be criticized no matter what she did for being an unproven artist coming off a reality show considered no better than a Star Search 2.0 at the time. her to take her music in a myriad of directions and do it credibly... First of all, you are an excellent writer. That makes your posts particularly interesting to me. Second, I agree with a good deal of what you wrote in your post, which I've excerpted only for continuity reasons with the above. Third, I'm not sure if by "critics" you mean professional entertainment reporters and semi-professional online music critics only, or if you include KC fans who don't happen to like 100% of her work. If the latter, then you are guilty of the same conceit and blindness of which many (if not most) fans (not just KC's) are guilty. It is a total fallacy and self-centered conceit that those who happen to disagree with us about something as subjective as artistic and entertainment tastes are in some way wrong, bad, lacking in judgement, not a "true" fan, etc. An even bigger conceit of many deeply dedicated fans (again, not just KC's) is to think that someone cannot be a fan of their favorite and yet dislike (and yes, criticize) some of that artist's work. Kelly is terrific. She is far and away my favorite singer of our time. No one else even comes close for me. So much of what she does touches me, that I spend a fairly sizable portion of the precious time allotted me on this planet following her career. However, I do not like 100% of her work, and deeply resent being told, for that reason, I in some way do not recognize her talent, cannot judge her music on its own merits, am not tuned into her artistry, etc. Even professional critics are entitled to their viewpoint, whether or not it is contrary to mine, yours, or that of anyone else. The difference with a pro vs. just a fan expressing his/her opinion on a site like Pulse is that the pro is paid to opine and provoke debate. They are immune to the kind of peer pressure attempted to be maintained on sites like this (even though Pulse is not a fan site). Where I do agree with you is your claim that "critics worth their salt" won't hold it against Kelly if she branches out beyond pop. Speaking only for myself, it doesn't matter a whit to me what genre of music she chooses to perform. It doesn't even matter to me if she writes a song or sings one someone else wrote. For me, Kelly's artistry is found in her ability to interpret a song. It's in the emotion she brings, in her phrasing, and in her -- as someone above said -- chameleon-like ability to almost become what the lyrics are saying no matter what genre she's singing at the time. She's done that singing Motown, 1960's classic rock, Beatles rock, 1940's swing, classical Schubert, Broadway music, blues, folk-rock, country, modern pop-rock, and several other genres. I do agree with you that Kelly's ability to perform such a wide variety of music with seeming ease places her talent far above most of her contemporaries. She is always interesting, never boring.
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sunpeach
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Post by sunpeach on Jul 4, 2008 16:15:01 GMT -5
Actually, it was after "Thankful" and was one of the reviews for "Breakaway" which accused her of mimicking Ashlee Simpson's "Autobiography" album and not knowing who she really was. It stuck out to me because it was a critical review and I didn't see many of those and already had the album and loved it but knew I had and have never heard any of "Autobiography" to make a comparison.
At any rate, I jut thought it was an interesting thought. My own wish hoping she goes back to pop/rock like Breakaway probably fuels it.
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 4, 2008 17:12:38 GMT -5
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jord
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Post by jord on Jul 4, 2008 17:43:31 GMT -5
Actually, it was after "Thankful" and was one of the reviews for "Breakaway" which accused her of mimicking Ashlee Simpson's "Autobiography" album and not knowing who she really was. It stuck out to me because it was a critical review and I didn't see many of those and already had the album and loved it but knew I had and have never heard any of "Autobiography" to make a comparison. At any rate, I jut thought it was an interesting thought. My own wish hoping she goes back to pop/rock like Breakaway probably fuels it.i know. the heavy metal sound of My December really didn't suit her!
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Focus
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Post by Focus on Jul 4, 2008 18:20:59 GMT -5
Heavy metal :)
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luver
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Post by luver on Jul 4, 2008 18:57:31 GMT -5
King of Gays,
The criticism that Kelly "doesn't know what she wants" seemed to be the theme of the criticisms surrounding Thankful. That greatly diminished with Breakaway though there were still those left to carry forward that notion so I don't doubt you read it. But I've read a lot about Breakaway truly being Kelly's breakaway into her own style and I think that is the critical analysis that prevailed.
It is on target to say that there were critics who compared her to Avril and Ashlee, yet now upcoming young female singers are regularly compared to Kelly. It seems to be the nature of the critical breast. Compare the new to what people know. It doesn't mean the artists don't know what they want or haven't separated themselves from those they are compared to. It means the critic is looking for a reference point to convey the sound they hear to the reader.
What I hear are little bits like "oh oh oh" in Behind These Hazel Eyes that sound similar to Avril. But does Addicted or Hear Me or Walk Away sound anything like Avril? To say a person doesn't know themselves and is resorting to copying another is a harsh criticism. It's hard not to notice how self possessed and comfortable Kelly is in her own skin and that she has strong opinions and takes determined stands for the direction she wants to go so I don't think that criticism holds water for anyone paying more than passing attention.
To say Kelly has melded the influences of others into her music is the more applicable observation to me. I think you can hardly look at Breakaway in it's entirety and say that it's a copycat of anyone in particular. You can find various influences, but that is no different for any artist. I still find the Avril comparison amusing, as if she invented chick rock. She wasn't even the first to wear a tie. At least the ones who comnpared Kelly to Pat Benetar realized music in this vein existed before the girl rockers of this past decade were born.
music4aw,
It doesn't matter whether I'm referring to a "professional" critic or not. One of the "professional" critics at USA Today openly admitted that she got lucky and fell into her job and really has no greater musical education or ability beyond the average fan. Yet she has a platform to influence others with her personal likes and dislikes. Whether a person is considered a professional or not, there ought to be some weight behind a criticism if it is going to be put forth as something more than one person's subjective preferences. So I don't care if you're considered a professional or a fantard, what you say ought to make sense if you're making a serious criticism.
I don't like 100% of Kelly's work. In fact, I don't like one of her biggest hits so why would I care to hold others to that standard? My cirticism of "critics" really has nothing to do with whether or not a person likes her music at all or whether they even like her. It has everything to do with being able to make observations that would allow your critical opinion to be regarded as worthy.
I made three points where I think people have failed to make valid critical observations, whether they thought they knew what they were talking about or whether they were knowingly promoting their own desires.
1. Those that did not recognize her talent and potential coming off of American Idol and saw fit to label her as a manufactured reality show product. Do you have to like an artist to be able to recognize talent/potential? I don't think so. There are a lot of artists that I don't care for but it doesn't blind me to their talent. I don't judge them as unworthy until I give them a fair chance and I don't judge them as unworthy simply because they do not appeal to me.
2. Those that pre-judged Breakaway harshly before giving it a chance. Rolling Stone called it a flop in week two and RCA predicted it wouldn't sell more than 600,000 copies. These are people that are given credit for knowing what they are talking about, yet they really didn't have a clue.
3. With MD, I think many failed to recognize that Kelly's talent runs deeper than being a pop singer. I think others failed by promotiong the idea that commercial success should be used as a barometer for talent. I didn't say anyone had to like MD (especially not if they are into lighthearted poppy hooks and songs that make them "feel good" and serve as escapsim from the realitites of the world), but I do think anyone who can step back from their personal preferences and consider whether that album had artistic merit should be able to see that in MD.
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neally
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Post by neally on Jul 4, 2008 19:20:04 GMT -5
^^^ LOL. What an excellent post, luver ! I love you thought process and have many opinions on the matter in common with you, especially your take on critic's "organic" love of indie artists when it comes to songwriting: "In a lot ways critics choose not to see it because they don't want to see it. They want her to fit in the box of being a pop singer who does what she is told because that is what they understand. They don't understand that a young woman with a phenomenal voice and massive commercial success also possesses the qualites that they want to reserve as the sacred ownership of singer/songwriter indie artists. They don't understand that she is a lover of music, not a lover of retreaded pop hooks."
Music4aw, I, too, am that Kelly Clarkson fan who does not love every song or performance of hers, especially of her earlier work, but, like you, I find that her "chameleon"-like freaky versatility and storyteller vocal expresion (in a vocalist who happens to have top-notch vocal abilities) makes her the most talented (or possibly second most talent contemporary female vocalist), IMO.
Back to your post, luver: I am considering "borrowing" my favourite line of yours regarding the upcoming record for a signature: "The fact that not one person in Kelly's fandom or in the industry can confidently predict the subject matter, genre leanings or almost anything else about the album is something to be celebrated in this environment of cookie cutter muscial product. " BRILLIANT !
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luver
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Post by luver on Jul 4, 2008 19:32:05 GMT -5
* blushes *
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Bluesy
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 4, 2008 20:42:42 GMT -5
3. With MD, I think many failed to recognize that Kelly's talent runs deeper than being a pop singer. I think others failed by promoting the idea that commercial success should be used as a barometer for talent. I didn't say anyone had to like MD (especially not if they are into lighthearted poppy hooks and songs that make them "feel good" and serve as escapism from the realities of the world), but I do think anyone who can step back from their personal preferences and consider whether that album had artistic merit should be able to see that in MD. This is where I disagree with you completely. It's why I referred to the conceit of people who think that if others don't see things their way, they assume those who disagree must "fail" in some way. If someone disagrees with or doesn't like a particular example of a singer's work (in your example, KC and MD) then, according to you, they are incapable of "stepping back" and "considering" whether the work has artistic merit. Plenty of people may very well have considered whether or not the work had artistic merit, and they formed the opinion that it did not. Just as you clearly formed the opinion that it did. Neither you, nor folks who formed opinions opposite to yours, are in any way flawed, wrong, or incapable. They merely have diverse world views which lead them to form different opinions. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. The following statement of yours, in particular, just drips with disdain for people who don't share your viewpoint: "I didn't say anyone had to like MD (especially not if they are into lighthearted poppy hooks and songs that make them 'feel good' and serve as escapism from the realities of the world)..."Way to put down people who think differently from you without appearing (on the surface) to do so.
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Bluesy
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 4, 2008 21:02:58 GMT -5
Music4aw, I, too, am that Kelly Clarkson fan who does not love every song or performance of hers, especially of her earlier work, but, like you, I find that her "chameleon"-like freaky versatility and storyteller vocal expresion (in a vocalist who happens to have top-notch vocal abilities) makes her the most talented (or possibly second most talent contemporary female vocalist), IMO. I'm not sure why it is, but these days singers appear to be discouraged by industry pressure (or something) from stretching themselves in the way Kelly does. It wasn't always the case. Judy Garland was the greatest female pop singer of the 20th Century, just as Ella Fitzgerald was the greatest female jazz singer. Yet both could, and did, do an incredibly wide range of musical styles: jazz, rhythm, blues, pop, swing, big band, theatrical, gospel, and so on. Although Kelly is a 21st Century artist, she reminds me of singers of that caliber. (For those who don't realize it, I've just paid Kelly the highest possible compliment I know how to bestow on a singer.)
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luver
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Post by luver on Jul 4, 2008 22:31:12 GMT -5
3. With MD, I think many failed to recognize that Kelly's talent runs deeper than being a pop singer. I think others failed by promoting the idea that commercial success should be used as a barometer for talent. I didn't say anyone had to like MD (especially not if they are into lighthearted poppy hooks and songs that make them "feel good" and serve as escapism from the realities of the world), but I do think anyone who can step back from their personal preferences and consider whether that album had artistic merit should be able to see that in MD. This is where I disagree with you completely. It's why I referred to the conceit of people who think that if others don't see things their way, they assume those who disagree must "fail" in some way. If someone disagrees with or doesn't like a particular example of a singer's work (in your example, KC and MD) then, according to you, they are incapable of "stepping back" and "considering" whether the work has artistic merit. Plenty of people may very well have considered whether or not the work had artistic merit, and they formed the opinion that it did not. Just as you clearly formed the opinion that it did. Neither you, nor folks who formed opinions opposite to yours, are in any way flawed, wrong, or incapable. They merely have diverse world views which lead them to form different opinions. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. The following statement of yours, in particular, just drips with disdain for people who don't share your viewpoint: "I didn't say anyone had to like MD (especially not if they are into lighthearted poppy hooks and songs that make them 'feel good' and serve as escapism from the realities of the world)..."Way to put down people who think differently from you without appearing (on the surface) to do so. By your reaction I'd guess you are one that did not care for My December. There is no disdain intended from me in that quote. I think you're reading my post from a defensive viewpoint. I happen to love lighthearted poppy songs that make me feel good and serve as escapism from the realities of the world. I even like Disco. How many people can say that? I'm looking forward to Kelly doing a "happy" album. Maybe I should have been more careful and said those who "only like" that kind of music wouldn't enjoy MD to avoid possible inference that I don't like poppy music. I suppose I wasn't expecting that I needed to be quite that guarded about inferences or that the idea of being able to find any kind of artistic merit in MD would be met with this reaction by a Kelly fan. I think artistic merit can be objectified to some extent, where personal preferences can't, and that is why I think people should have been able to recognize the steps forward that Kelly took as an artist. I suppose that is going to be debatable based on how you are going to apply the word "merit". One of the first things I would look at is the ability to strike an emotional cord with people. If you don't like it yourself then you have to look at the effect on others who prefer this style of music. Other things that could be considered are the ability to convey a univeral message that doesn't seem like a retread of something you've heard before. The ability to go beyond a conventional rhyme. The ability to go beyond a conventional song structure. The ability to slide from genre to genre. The ability to choose appropriate vocal inflections to fit the song. So on and so forth. I haven't heard the song structure of Sober from Kelly before. I haven't seen her emotions so raw and exposed and heartbreaking as on Irvine. I haven't found a bigger laugh to be had or or a song that drips more sarcasm than "I'll take the Chivas instead of your bed". If there is a song from Kelly that comes closer to encouraging baby making than Be Still I wonder what that would be. Which songs from Thankful and Breakaway gave us what these songs gave us and revealed to us what these songs revealed about Kelly? Once again, I think seeing the merit of MD doesn't mean you have to particularly like these songs. It doesn't mean you have to think they are great or even good. What I think should be recognized is the expansion of Kelly's artistic expression and her refusal to be musically static by going down a "proven" and well worn path. So to me if someone can't listen to MD and notice things from Kelly that they did not find with Thankful or Breakaway then, it's true, I can't hold that opinion in very high esteem and I do think they failed to recognize the artistic merit of MD. How can you grow as an artist if you only repeat what you have done before? You can say this judgement is derived of conceit if you wish, but an alternative viewpoint might find that those who hold fast to the notion that MD should be dismissed of any kernel of artistic merit are expressing another form of conceit. At least a good portion of the critics I read who wanted to lambast MD still found it impossible not to credit Irvine as an artistic triumph.
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Berry
3x Platinum Member
Joined: June 2007
Posts: 3,082
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Post by Berry on Jul 4, 2008 23:13:01 GMT -5
Ok sorry to break this all up, but how about some new pics Kelly Clarkson is TOASTFri, 04 July 2008 Kelly Clarkson celebrates the 4th of July by grabbing lunch at Toast Bakery Cafe with two of her close girlfriends on Friday. MORE PICS HERE
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Bluesy
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2007
Posts: 1,954
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 4, 2008 23:44:45 GMT -5
There is no disdain intended from me in that quote. I think you're reading my post from a defensive viewpoint...I suppose I wasn't expecting that I needed to be quite that guarded about inferences or that the idea of being able to find any kind of artistic merit in MD would be met with this reaction by a Kelly fan. You can say this judgement is derived of conceit... I can't speak to your intentions, only to your expression of them as written. I am reading into your posts that which I perceive you put there, because I only have your written word to go by. It's easy to forget that internet forums are a highly one-dimensional form of communication, lacking all of the vocal inflection and visual clues we rely on in everyday interpersonal communication. I'm not going to debate your understanding of "merit" and "artistic," because that is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I am merely saying that people who hold opinions different from yours are not guilty of all the negative characterizations you used to describe them and their points of view. They are merely individuals whose different backgrounds cause them to form opinions different from your own. As for my use of the word "conceit" in this context, it does not mean self-conceit (as in he's conceited). Rather, it means "an organizing theme or concept." Your organizing theme as regards people whose opinions differ from your own, at least as regards Kelly's music, appears to be that such people are flawed in some way. You may think of my reaction as defensive, if you wish, but to do so is to miss, or misunderstand, my point. In any case, I agree with you that MD has artistic merit in the sense that it was an original work apparently intended by Kelly to tell a story of one part of her life. You mentioned 'Be Still.' That's my favorite song on the album. I won't say anything beyond that. I STRONGLY prefer to look forward toward Kelly's new album and a new chapter in her career. To me, a constant rehash of all the MD arguments, pro and con, is way beyond boring. Speaking of defensive...the need some people have to constantly defend that album is really kind of sad. If the album really was so monumentally wonderful, it wouldn't need such persistent defending. (I know others disagree, which is why I emphasized "to me." I have no doubt that 30 or 40 years from now, some folks will be sitting around a nursing home somewhere still going on and on about MD and the drama surrounding it.)
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Bluesy
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2007
Posts: 1,954
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 4, 2008 23:48:29 GMT -5
Ok sorry to break this all up, but how about some new pics Kelly Clarkson is TOASTFri, 04 July 2008 Kelly Clarkson celebrates the 4th of July by grabbing lunch at Toast Bakery Cafe with two of her close girlfriends on Friday. MORE PICS HERESix, you realize, of course, that Kelly looks suspiciously like a normal human female in those pics. This fact will draw visits from the crowd that expects celebrities to be anorexic and always perfectly glam when out in public. ;) :)
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luver
Charting
Joined: June 2005
Posts: 38
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Post by luver on Jul 5, 2008 1:41:12 GMT -5
There is no disdain intended from me in that quote. I think you're reading my post from a defensive viewpoint...I suppose I wasn't expecting that I needed to be quite that guarded about inferences or that the idea of being able to find any kind of artistic merit in MD would be met with this reaction by a Kelly fan. You can say this judgement is derived of conceit... I can't speak to your intentions, only to your expression of them as written. I am reading into your posts that which I perceive you put there, because I only have your written word to go by. It's easy to forget that internet forums are a highly one-dimensional form of communication, lacking all of the vocal inflection and visual clues we rely on in everyday interpersonal communication. I'm not going to debate your understanding of "merit" and "artistic," because that is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I am merely saying that people who hold opinions different from yours are not guilty of all the negative characterizations you used to describe them and their points of view. They are merely individuals whose different backgrounds cause them to form opinions different from your own. As for my use of the word "conceit" in this context, it does not mean self-conceit (as in he's conceited). Rather, it means "an organizing theme or concept." Your organizing theme as regards people whose opinions differ from your own, at least as regards Kelly's music, appears to be that such people are flawed in some way. You may think of my reaction as defensive, if you wish, but to do so is to miss, or misunderstand, my point. In any case, I agree with you that MD has artistic merit in the sense that it was an original work apparently intended by Kelly to tell a story of one part of her life. You mentioned 'Be Still.' That's my favorite song on the album. I won't say anything beyond that. I STRONGLY prefer to look forward toward Kelly's new album and a new chapter in her career. To me, a constant rehash of all the MD arguments, pro and con, is way beyond boring. Speaking of defensive...the need some people have to constantly defend that album is really kind of sad. If the album really was so monumentally wonderful, it wouldn't need such persistent defending. (I know others disagree, which is why I emphasized "to me." I have no doubt that 30 or 40 years from now, some folks will be sitting around a nursing home somewhere still going on and on about MD and the drama surrounding it.) True, you can't speak to my intentions as you were far off the mark. But there didn't seem to be any allowance for the lacking nature of internet communication when your response was to throw caustic and confrontational words at me such as "conceit" and "disdain". That is the form of communication you chose to employ when my post was aimed in the general direction of critics and no one in particular. And your backpeddling on your use of the word "conceit" doesn't really fly when your specific quote is: If you're going to take offense at another's judgments it might be a good idea to avoid simultaneously passing your own harsh judgements that are based on false assumptions. One could say your highly charged reaction was your attempt to impose the pressure you spoke of in forums such as these. I think keeping the debate topical and not venturing toward personal judgements until you gained a better understanding of the point would have been a better approach. I do think this was an overly sensitive reaction considering the fact that no where did I state or imply that anyone had to like 100% of her work. So when I say you are defensive I only have your words to go by also. Your reaction seems to stem from your past experiences with other posters who like MD and your seeming emotional investment in defending your own position on MD. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you saw talent and potential in Kelly if you watched AI. I'm also going to assume that you gave Breakaway a chance before you passed any judgement on it. Now you say you see some artistic merit in MD. If this is all true then you didn't register on my fail-o-meter for the critic. So either you prematurely put yourself in the pool of the failing critic and then took yourself out as the discussion progressed or you wanted to stand up for the MIA critic who fits my description and the notion that artistic merit has no objectifiable qualities. If I don't hold artistic merit to be an entirely subjective matter (which I don't) then my criticisms had nothing to do with denying someone the "entitlement of opinion" and it most definitly had nothing to do with my not allowing others their own preferences as you wish to assert. I briefly touched on some aspects of artistry that I think can be objectified, but if you believe judements of musical artistry are entirely bound by musical preferences than that is an entirely different discussion.
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Bluesy
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2007
Posts: 1,954
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Post by Bluesy on Jul 5, 2008 17:33:30 GMT -5
True, you can't speak to my intentions as you were far off the mark. But there didn't seem to be any allowance for the lacking nature of internet communication when your response was to throw caustic and confrontational words at me such as "conceit" and "disdain"...etc. I can see that your comprehension skills do not match your writing skills. You remind me of someone else...
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