praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 8, 2010 0:38:48 GMT -5
The song originally had lyrics bordering on despair. Anyway that was just an example. My point was that religion to some extent acts as a censor--which is fine for living one's own personal moral life--but is inhibiting for a pop artist. And I disagree with those who already place him with Mraz and Bareilles. He admires those artists--but it's not yet clear that that's where he's headed as an artist.
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Post by rince25 on Jan 8, 2010 0:47:51 GMT -5
Well I think thats where he wants to head. Right now he's a teen pop singer.... It's hard to be a serious singer-songwriter when you're barely 19... but I think in the future he'll head in that singer songwriter direction. He hasn't shown any interest in going in a different direction than that. Most of the songwriters he chooses to work with are of that vein.
I see him becoming sort of a younger more polished, less gritty James Morrison. But who knows. Maybe he'll surprise and do a country album. haha This album will give us a real indication of where he's heading.
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Sara
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Post by Sara on Jan 8, 2010 0:52:27 GMT -5
I love James Morrison, so I'd be happy with that. :) But I agree, I definitely see him wanting to do that in the future as that's what he listens to and seems to like the most.
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Post by rince25 on Jan 8, 2010 0:58:10 GMT -5
I love him too. David should collaborate with him or at least his team. I think David's voice really suits that soul-pop vibe.
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 8, 2010 0:58:26 GMT -5
He loved Nashville. It figures. The values match.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on Jan 8, 2010 2:17:14 GMT -5
Two points. First, my view is that a strong religious commitment is an inhibiting factor for artists. You yourself point out that there are certain things that David will probably never sing about--and that's pretty much what I see as a problem--though I'm not suggesting David choose his art over his faith. But there IS a tension. David has countless times shown that he has it in him to explore some of the darker aspects of life. He did a great studio job with Desperate, for instance--but he avoids singing it on tour--and when he did sing it that one time, he held back emotionally. I think there's a moral confusion deep down somewhere--which he hasn't quite sorted out. And I think his personal religious code is a factor in that. See, that's another place we majorly diverge. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, see religion as an inhibiting factor for artists. I mean, we're talking about people who believe without seeing; who believe in a presence greater than themselves--big scale stuff. Religion over the centuries has been the muse of artists. But you're not even talking about religion--you're talking about morality. And those are two separate things. Yes, morality is often guided by religion, but you'll find that people of the exact same faith often have very different moral views. I'm not sure how you can assume that David is morally confused. He's never once expressed confusion about his beliefs on who he wants to be as a person, morally-speaking. Non-swearing, good-living, positive people aren't damaged because of their positive outlook, nor are they less artistic because they choose not to delve into dark subject matter. That said, I think you're also painting a simplistic picture of who David is now, anyway. Your view on his performance of Desperate was just that--your view. I never thought the song suited him anyway. It's one of my least favorite on the album--so maybe it's really not his favorite song, either. But this is also the kid that wrote a song about suicide when he was 14. He knows there are dark things in the world, and he has in the past expressed his views on those subjects. If he ever feels the need to do so again, I think he will. I don't believe his religion is stopping him. What I meant about things he will never sing about is the gratuitous sexual innuendo you get in songs, or swear words--stuff like that. An artist doesn't need to sing about that stuff to be a true artist.
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 8, 2010 10:24:55 GMT -5
See, that's another place we majorly diverge. I do not, in any way, shape, or form, see religion as an inhibiting factor for artists. I mean, we're talking about people who believe without seeing; who believe in a presence greater than themselves--big scale stuff. Religion over the centuries has been the muse of artists. I see religion as an inhibiting factor, but I don't disagree that it can be inspiring. One instance of the latter would be David's sensational version of O Holy Night. But such material is not the stuff of a career in pop music. It won't make him a superstar. Neither will avoiding certain dimensions of human experience. I get the distinction. But while being moral doesn't imply being religious, being religious does imply being moral. And I agree people aren't damaged because of a firmly moral outlook--but they would be limited as pop artists. By definition pop music is for everybody, for the morally broken and the morally strong. People want to hear what they can relate to personally. I'm not calling for more vulgarity--for Adam Lambert's phony histrionics--but for exploring all the dimensions of life honestly, not just what's morally uplifting. As for moral confusion, I was not referring to confusion about his own moral standards but about how those standards might conflict with what's poplular in music. By analogy I'd point to the Guitar Hero commercial. David has said he can't believe he ever did that ad. It called for his appearing in his underwear supposedly--innocuous enough in pop culture--but pretty daring stuff for a Mormon kid like David. That kind of finickyness is what I'm talking about. Those same kinds of choices will occur in pop music all the time. Personally I think he'll choose to do what's necessary--but there's always that hesitancy. I agree sexual innuendo, swear words, need not ever become part of his repertoire. David is apparently sexy enough as he is--judging by the screams he evokes. And I agree there is a dark side that David understands. In fact Desperate is closer in theme to that song about suicide than anything else on the album. I agree he surprises us sometimes. He did the Guitar Hero commercial. For him that was a pretty big deal. One of the odd things about David's talent is that a song like Desperate--which you think doesn't suit him--still came off convincingly because something in him related to it--despite his sunny image. It's the big stuff, Contigo, O Holy Night, DLTSGDOM--when he pulls out all the stops--not the low-key, pleasant Works For Me kind of song--that brings on the chills for the listener and makes him shine as an artist. David is a contradiction. He shows not an ounce of aggression in his everyday persona, for instance--yet he aggressively pushed to the finish line on Top 2 night--which was why Cook later called him "feisty." His music can reflect a lot of emotions he all but suppresses in his everyday dealings with the world. There's the zen-like kid who has every thing under control--and there's the passionate kid singing those big songs, coming on strong, pushing the limits vocally. So it'll be interesting to see what develops.
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Rurry
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Post by Rurry on Jan 8, 2010 17:13:21 GMT -5
David's first single was released before his album. Is that typical for pop albums or just an Idol first album thing? Because I can't wait to hear some of whatever he's doing. It's very typical. We'll be getting David's first single probably a month and a half to two months before the album comes out. Yeah it's abnormal if you don't release your single before your album lol..that's one of the main ways to get sales. So I'm hoping for a spring single/summer album. And I agree that Desperate was just awkward lol. Not only the content but the whole style of the song - weird euro rock? ??? It stuck out like a sore thumb on the album and it was pretty clear David was never a fan of it either since he barely ever performed it. I have no problem with David doing more "dark" stuff but that song was just odd. The lyrics were super trite too, like someone wrote them saying "Now it's time to write a super depressing emo rock ballad!".
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 8, 2010 18:08:44 GMT -5
Disagree.
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Post by rince25 on Jan 8, 2010 18:21:01 GMT -5
It's very typical. We'll be getting David's first single probably a month and a half to two months before the album comes out. Yeah it's abnormal if you don't release your single before your album lol..that's one of the main ways to get sales. So I'm hoping for a spring single/summer album. And I agree that Desperate was just awkward lol. Not only the content but the whole style of the song - weird euro rock? ??? It stuck out like a sore thumb on the album and it was pretty clear David was never a fan of it either since he barely ever performed it. I have no problem with David doing more "dark" stuff but that song was just odd. The lyrics were super trite too, like someone wrote them saying "Now it's time to write a super depressing emo rock ballad!". I completely agree. That song came off as very cheesy to me because it was trying sooo hard to be emo eurorock. It's so generic. You could hear that exact same song from literally 100's of bands.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on Jan 8, 2010 21:32:38 GMT -5
^^ I was actually surprised it was co-written by Desmond Child--I consider him better than your average songwriter.
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 9, 2010 12:22:18 GMT -5
And I agree that Desperate was just awkward lol. Not only the content but the whole style of the song - weird euro rock? ??? It stuck out like a sore thumb on the album and it was pretty clear David was never a fan of it either since he barely ever performed it. I have no problem with David doing more "dark" stuff but that song was just odd. The lyrics were super trite too, like someone wrote them saying "Now it's time to write a super depressing emo rock ballad!". Nothing awkward about the studio performance itself. David was on target vocally.
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Rurry
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Post by Rurry on Jan 9, 2010 13:15:28 GMT -5
His vocals were about the only good thing about it. The arrangement was awkward, the lyrics were stupid...it was just .
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 9, 2010 16:00:39 GMT -5
His vocals were about the only good thing about it. The arrangement was awkward, the lyrics were stupid...it was just . Disagree the lyrics were stupid in any way. They were totally appropriate for a song about somebody feeling desperate: You want somebody, just anybody To lay their hands to your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light 'Cause you're desperate; desperate 'Cause you're desperate; and now You know that things have gotta change You can't go back you'll find your way And day by day You start to come alive You want somebody, just anybody To bring some peace on your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light You want somebody, just anybody To lay their hands on your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light 'Cause you're desperate, desperate 'Cause you're desperate, tonight Oh desperate, so desperate Tonight, tonight Desperate, desperate What's "stupid" about the above? It's exactly how we'd expect somebody in the throes of depression to think and feel while looking for a glimmer of hope. David gives the song all he's got and is totally convincing. That said, almost any of the lyrics of any song you can mention would not hold up against the standards of even reasonably good poetry. Given the other tracks on the cd, I'd say Desperate had lyrics far better than most.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on Jan 9, 2010 17:37:49 GMT -5
I just thought it was a strange fit because it's blatant early 2000s Euro pop. It's completely different than everything else on the album. Really odd song to put on a 2008 release of a young American pop singer. The darker tone of the song had nothing to do with it.
I'm willing to bet that Jive promised a spot to Desmond Child before David even started recording and so it basically had to wind up on the album.
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 9, 2010 18:47:16 GMT -5
That sounds plausible. It was a strange fit production-wise. But not vocally--which was my point. David was credible singing it, though he was still only 17 at the time. He totally understood what he had to bring to it.
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Modern Myth
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Post by Modern Myth on Jan 9, 2010 18:47:58 GMT -5
"Desperate" is my favorite song on the album.
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soundUPsceneDOWN
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Post by soundUPsceneDOWN on Jan 9, 2010 22:12:41 GMT -5
"Desperate" is my favorite song on the album. Sorry lol. I don't hate the song, I just think it's a weird fit.
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Post by rince25 on Jan 9, 2010 22:25:51 GMT -5
I really like that Desperate used David's lower range. Many of the songs on the debut were far too high for my liking.
But the song itself and the production sounded very dated and cheesy to me. especially the intro part.
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violet
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Post by violet on Jan 10, 2010 0:03:48 GMT -5
praepos - A lot of young people listen to David's music and go to his concerts. Desperate as written is almost suicidal. When I first heard it I was pleased he showed something in that darker rock ballad style to show his versatility, but I also worried how it might affect any unstable young fans. And there are some fans like that, cutters and stuff. There are other stars whose music is all clean. Aren't Beyonce, Chris Brown, Kelly Clarkson, Jordin Sparks, One Republic, Coldplay basically clean? Obviously his religion didn't keep him from putting Desperate on his album. But I just don't think that song is him. As for the way he arranged for live performance, I think that was to make it more hopeful sounding in the middle and also to make it less repetitive, same reason he added Beautiful Girls into Stand By Me. I agree in general that these days, after a certain age a lot of teens start listening to music with sex and drugs and violence and David won't be singing those songs. Then there's the middle area of touching and kissing where he really hasn't gone much (other than hold you in my arms, hold on to my hand, etc). I think he's been the closest in covers done in small venue encores - he did "hang from your lips" (I'll Be) and he made Bubbly pretty enticing in parts "feel your warmth". I think he is fine with those songs. But will his dad and others steer him away from stuff like that for his own recordings? For me (and yeah I am old) I think his untouched uber-purity lets even the slightest bit of intimacy in a song have more effect. It makes it more sexy, if that makes any sense. I would like him to get some of that into his own music. But I agree it may be tough for him to put out anything of his own that goes beyond the LDS guidelines for teens dating. Re Idol - David has said many times he was challenging himself. He was not competing. He even said he told his competitors what he was planning to sing. Cook said he did not tell DA what he was going to sing. David excels at challenging himself. BTW all - these are the original lyrics of Desperate before David changed them. These are even darker. www.justsomelyrics.com/1526637/Stanfour-Desperate-LyricsBTW2 - David is at a Reel big Fish concert. He is then heading to Central America for charity work. And there is a rumor of a February Philippines mega-concert with Cook too and one Filipino-American singer from the Pussycat Dolls. And this is a nice little Riddle video with a front view and clear sound: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8PCJoIaaU
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Post by rince25 on Jan 10, 2010 0:15:48 GMT -5
The Phillipines concert is definitely a rumor. David is confirmed for Jordin's Superbowl Charity event on the 4th of February and that concert is supposed to be on the 5th. It would be impossible for him to make it there and perform.
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Rurry
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Post by Rurry on Jan 10, 2010 3:17:39 GMT -5
There are other stars whose music is all clean. Aren't Beyonce, Chris Brown, Kelly Clarkson, Jordin Sparks, One Republic, Coldplay basically clean? Chris Brown? lol I agree though there is nothing wrong with him being 'clean'. There are plenty of artists who keep their material generally clean and see success. His vocals were about the only good thing about it. The arrangement was awkward, the lyrics were stupid...it was just . Disagree the lyrics were stupid in any way. They were totally appropriate for a song about somebody feeling desperate: You want somebody, just anybody To lay their hands to your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light 'Cause you're desperate; desperate 'Cause you're desperate; and now You know that things have gotta change You can't go back you'll find your way And day by day You start to come alive You want somebody, just anybody To bring some peace on your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light You want somebody, just anybody To lay their hands on your soul tonight You want a reason to keep believin' That someday you're gonna see the light 'Cause you're desperate, desperate 'Cause you're desperate, tonight Oh desperate, so desperate Tonight, tonight Desperate, desperate What's "stupid" about the above? It's exactly how we'd expect somebody in the throes of depression to think and feel while looking for a glimmer of hope. David gives the song all he's got and is totally convincing. That said, almost any of the lyrics of any song you can mention would not hold up against the standards of even reasonably good poetry. Given the other tracks on the cd, I'd say Desperate had lyrics far better than most. IDK, the song just didn't sound genuine to me. It sounded like a song written to be a "dark, depressing ballad". Not something someone wrote to convey emotions. It's just the vibe I got from it. Maybe it was the arrangement which didnt really fit the lyrics of the song. I like the song every once in a while but it's nothing I ever really put on high rotation. I remember in one recent interview talking about writing for the new album, David was like "I'm just kind of quirky and weird, I'm not this deep, dark person" and I was thinking it was a total crack at Desperate LOL
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violet
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Post by violet on Jan 10, 2010 11:15:22 GMT -5
NotEmo3 - I listed Chris Brown because he has actually said he was keeping his music clean because he has younger fans too. And before he assaulted Rihanna, he had a major spot as a clean artist.
Re Sparks event vs Philippines - I thought David was only involved in her Feb 3 Teddy Bear Picnic part of the event. Wait - I just looked it up and the delivery of bears to the Children's Hospital is Feb 4.
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praepos
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Post by praepos on Jan 10, 2010 11:22:57 GMT -5
I agree in general that these days, after a certain age a lot of teens start listening to music with sex and drugs and violence and David won't be singing those songs. Then there's the middle area of touching and kissing where he really hasn't gone much (other than hold you in my arms, hold on to my hand, etc). This is the issue I raised--that middle area. I see no problem just now--but it will be a problem as he gets older. I brought up the Guitar Hero analogy for this reason. Some choices will have to be made that go over the line as far as his religion goes--if he wants to get to the next level of success in his mature years. Sure it makes sense. It's the key to much of his appeal. I don't buy it. I don't doubt this is what he thinks--just as he has said he's this quirky guy and not somebody dark and deep--something NotEmo is pointing out as well. But we have to make allowances for David's humility here. He routinely underestimates himself, his looks, his voice, his appeal--and his temperament. His performances show someone quite different--someone more aggressive, more aware, more mature, more flirtatious, more intense and erotic. The performances suggest far more depth and sensitivity than most male teenagers usually possess. David understands the darker places because he's been there, not because he has accidently stumbled on the right emotion when he sings. He even wrote a song about a young girl's suicide--so he's been touched by darkness pretty immediately. And there's the whole business of his parents' conflict--none of which intrudes on his public life in any of his interviews or statements--but which has got to have had a devastating impact nonetheless. So we have to take what David says about himself with a grain of salt. I like the song every once in a while but it's nothing I ever really put on high rotation. I remember in one recent interview talking about writing for the new album, David was like "I'm just kind of quirky and weird, I'm not this deep, dark person" and I was thinking it was a total crack at Desperate LOL Everybody notices the huge gap between who David is when he sings and who he is when he's not singing. It's almost as if he becomes somebody else far more mature. I don't think even David understands this other David--but he even moves differently, without the flailing hands and awkwardness. What I'm saying is that David seems aware of only his non-singing, rambling quirky self. But that other guy is David too--and he's a lot deeper. My guess is that David uses music to tap into emotions he doesn't normally express in his everyday life. For him it's a safety-valve. It keeps him calm and happy.
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violet
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Post by violet on Jan 10, 2010 12:23:56 GMT -5
praepos - I love your last paragraph.
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Post by davidprincess on Jan 10, 2010 15:45:13 GMT -5
Guys David is traveling to Central America for charity work. That' so nice. I hope he has a great time there. :) In other hand, Guys I don't think David doesn't sing songs about kissing or touching because his dad doesn't allow him. I think Archie is the one who picks the songs he sings. Also, I think his dad is the one who likes more commercial music. I remember that it was an idea of his dad to include the 'beautiful girl' part in 'STBM' that's why the producers banned him from idol, and I think he was the one who helped David to pick Crush too. I guess David rathers to sing more songs like ' you are the voice' or ' the riddle' instead of "Running" 'one time' ' Replay or other commercial hits; because David wants to sing more meaningful songs with good messages. Even though sometimes he tries to avoid singing songs about kissing, but that's because he is a really shy guy I think. Maybe when he gets older, he will be less shy.
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Rurry
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Post by Rurry on Jan 10, 2010 20:09:27 GMT -5
Is his dad even still in the picture? I hadn't heard much about him lately so I figured he had backed off after all of the bad press. His dad = Anyway that charity trip is really cool, so glad he's doing it. Hope we get some great inspritational songs out of it too! lol :)
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violet
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Post by violet on Jan 10, 2010 20:54:44 GMT -5
davidprincess - It was the media that said his dad put in Beautiful Girls but his dad says it wasn't him and David said he did that himself. I think Dean said David put it in because in the 1.5 minute length the performance had to be, there wasn't time for two verses and David thought it was two repetitive with so many Stand by Mes. So he added that in rehearsal, some producers heard it, when he tried it again without it the band leader asked why he took it out and that it sounded good with it. So don't say it was an idea of his dad. Everyone just blamed it on his Dad. re Running - it gets few votes on every poll I have seen at FansofDavid (Richard Parkinson's fan site) - polls of "what should David sing on tour". I think David tries to sing what the most fans want. There definitely are Running lovers including me and my niece, but I guess not enough. For me it has a vibe like Bruce Hornsby's The Way it Is. I love it and its crazy words too. Words fal-ling out of my pocket. Re kissing - yeah I would like David to get a bit closer to kissing in his music. Heck he has "lying here, it's our last final goodnight". But hands are a start. He thinks holding hands is intimate. Maybe after he has his first kiss.. Nice nice mention in this Salon blog article - Beyond 15 Minutes of American Idol Fame 15 of the Show's alumni who may have careers to stay open.salon.com/blog/jayelle_hartley/2010/01/08/beyond_15_minutes_of_american_idol_fameAlso I never saw the Nielson top 10 Seasonal albums ratings - CFTH is 7! 1.bp.blogspot.com/_X20IELE1WjI/S0fVIPR3JnI/AAAAAAAAAYo/nVwKU8IVdok/s1600-h/nielsen.jpgFrom MTV - Best of 2009 - Musicians Give Back - David is #4 2.bp.blogspot.com/_7D7TMqjqYYU/S0IIHZWUIWI/AAAAAAAABI0/iXQHTRt2gZM/s1600-h/Picture+3.pngAnd a lovely and artistic scrapbook video of Gengen Wang's photos - she went to 10 CFTH concerts and she gets great shots. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS7uHUjRe9E
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Post by davidprincess on Jan 10, 2010 23:39:46 GMT -5
:) davidprincess - It was the media that said his dad put in Beautiful Girls but his dad says it wasn't him and David said he did that himself. I think Dean said David put it in because in the 1.5 minute length the performance had to be, there wasn't time for two verses and David thought it was two repetitive with so many Stand by Mes. So he added that in rehearsal, some producers heard it, when he tried it again without it the band leader asked why he took it out and that it sounded good with it. So don't say it was an idea of his dad. Everyone just blamed it on his Dad. re Running - it gets few votes on every poll I have seen at FansofDavid (Richard Parkinson's fan site) - polls of "what should David sing on tour". I think David tries to sing what the most fans want. There definitely are Running lovers including me and my niece, but I guess not enough. For me it has a vibe like Bruce Hornsby's The Way it Is. I love it and its crazy words too. Words fal-ling out of my pocket. Re kissing - yeah I would like David to get a bit closer to kissing in his music. Heck he has "lying here, it's our last final goodnight". But hands are a start. He thinks holding hands is intimate. Maybe after he has his first kiss.. Nice nice mention in this Salon blog article - Beyond 15 Minutes of American Idol Fame 15 of the Show's alumni who may have careers to stay open.salon.com/blog/jayelle_hartley/2010/01/08/beyond_15_minutes_of_american_idol_fameAlso I never saw the Nielson top 10 Seasonal albums ratings - CFTH is 7! 1.bp.blogspot.com/_X20IELE1WjI/S0fVIPR3JnI/AAAAAAAAAYo/nVwKU8IVdok/s1600-h/nielsen.jpgFrom MTV - Best of 2009 - Musicians Give Back - David is #4 2.bp.blogspot.com/_7D7TMqjqYYU/S0IIHZWUIWI/AAAAAAAABI0/iXQHTRt2gZM/s1600-h/Picture+3.pngAnd a lovely and artistic scrapbook video of Gengen Wang's photos - she went to 10 CFTH concerts and she gets great shots. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS7uHUjRe9EWoo, I didn't know that was David who added the beautiful girl part! I thought it was his dad, because the media reported it like that, but I know now that it was David's idea. Thanks For the info. :) Yeah I also like 'Running' too. I wonder why it's not a fan favorite? because 'Running' is very catchy. Getting back to the the new album conversation, I hope David writes more songs in which people can relate to it. I really like love songs, so I hope he includes love songs in his new album too. :)
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baobabs727
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Post by baobabs727 on Jan 11, 2010 0:38:35 GMT -5
While I do not think "Desperate" reflects the way forward, anyone who cannot hear the sheer genius in that live performance must have a tin ear!!!
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