CHR starting to close in on Hot AC?

[atlantaboy]

Just been noticing that CHR is beginning to take on most of Hot AC's big hits (prob. with the one exception of "Before It's Too Late" by the Goo Goo Dolls) - nearly all CHR stations are on the new Matchbox 20, Maroon 5, and Daughtry - those in rock-leaning markets are on Nickelback and Lifehouse, and even Z100 picked up "First Time" and it seems like other major markets will follow

In short, I'm worried about Hot AC's ratings b/c it seems like most Hot AC hits can now be heard on CHRs (unless you're in a CHR/teen market) - the major difference now seems to be that most Hot AC stations get on these songs much earlier (esp. ones that go for adds at Hot AC first like "First Time" and "Undeniable" and maybe "Before It's Too Late" if it ever goes for adds at CHR)

In addition, there aren't really many popular rap hits right now to separate CHR from HAC, except for "Party Like A Rockstar" which I think will be pretty short-lived and which a lot of CHR fans don't like (at least on the CHR panel) - and T-Pain's "Buy U A Drank" is now on the "downslide" at CHR - J. T.'s "Lovestoned" isn't doing (relatively) that well either - so it seems like he won't be a CHR/HAC divider either esp. since a lot of HACs are playing "What Goes Around Comes Around" and even "Summer Love"

It seems like more and more CHRs are starting to lean HAC - and many are going back and playing "Ever The Same" and (some) "Little Wonders" - KRBE/Houston is even going back and playing "100 Years" by Five For Fighting

[Marv]

Basically, SOME CHR/Pop stations are widening their playlists (KIIS-FM is now number TWO in LA to longtime legendary AC powerhouse KOST 103.5 in the all-important adults 25-54, but since I don't listen to them, I have NO idea if they've widened their playlist, or are still 85%+ rhythmic) because there's just more music that CHR/Pop can now play without conceding those adults to the local Hot AC, Country or Smooth Jazz competitor.

CHR/Pop and Hot AC have always shared listeners; that was certainly the case in 1997/98, when Hot AC was at its peak, and CHR/Pop started getting back SOME adults who'd bailed out of the format in the late eighties/early nineties.

Yet the percentage of listeners shared by CHR/Pop and Hot AC has been shrinking recently.

CHR/Pop almost missed the boat on the number one single of the past decade strictly necause of the age of the artist, which was indefensibly stupid, and anything but a 'Smooth' move.

The problem today is that CHR/Pop and AC share far fewer listeners than they did in the eighties and very early nineties, or at least until 1992.

There has usually been a re-invention of the CHR/Pop format around every decade going back at least thirty years.

Whether it be the disco era of the late seventies, the hard rock stuff of the late eighties, or the simultaneous explosion of Alternative (Wallflowers/Third Eye Blind) and teen pop (BSB/N'Sync) in the late nineties at top 40 radio, as consultant Guy Zapoleon recently stated in R&R, it's somewhat bizarre that such a trend has existed for three decades!!!!!

We could be entering another similar transformation of the CHR/Pop format right now, thanks to three acts as diverse as Fergie, Gwen Stefani & Carrie Underwood, although I'm certainly not sure that country hits are about to regain acceptance at CHR/Pop anytime soon.

[Chase]

marv said:

Basically, SOME CHR/Pop stations are widening their playlists (KIIS-FM is now number TWO in LA to longtime legendary AC powerhouse KOST 103.5 in the all-important adults 25-54, but since I don't listen to them, I have NO idea if they've widened their playlist, or are still 85%+ rhythmic) because there's just more music that CHR/Pop can now play without conceding those adults to the local Hot AC, Country or Smooth Jazz competitor.

CHR/Pop and Hot AC have always shared listeners; that was certainly the case in 1997/98, when Hot AC was at its peak, and CHR/Pop started getting back SOME adults who'd bailed out of the format in the late eighties/early nineties.

Yet the percentage of listeners shared by CHR/Pop and Hot AC has been shrinking recently.

CHR/Pop almost missed the boat on the number one single of the past decade strictly necause of the age of the artist, which was indefensibly stupid, and anything but a 'Smooth' move.

The problem today is that CHR/Pop and AC share far fewer listeners than they did in the eighties and very early nineties, or at least until 1992.

There has usually been a re-invention of the CHR/Pop format around every decade going back at least thirty years.

Whether it be the disco era of the late seventies, the hard rock stuff of the late eighties, or the simultaneous explosion of Alternative (Wallflowers/Third Eye Blind) and teen pop (BSB/N'Sync) in the late nineties at top 40 radio, as consultant Guy Zapoleon recently stated in R&R, it's somewhat bizarre that such a trend has existed for three decades!!!!!

We could be entering another similar transformation of the CHR/Pop format right now, thanks to three acts as diverse as Fergie, Gwen Stefani & Carrie Underwood, although I'm certainly not sure that country hits are about to regain acceptance at CHR/Pop anytime soon.

Why is the smaller number of shared listeners between CHR/Pop and AC a problem? Doesn't that show that they are distinct formats?

[Slinky]

I don't think sharing songs is much of a problem for Hot AC. Hot AC has always defined itself as much by the songs it doesn't play (T'Pain, Shop Boyz, etc.) as the ones it does. Hot AC also defines itself by the mix of older and newer songs they play. CHR might be playing the new Rob Thomas but they're not going to go back and play his recurrents and gold the way Hot AC will.

The fact that a Hot AC listener can hear Lifehouse on CHR isn't going to turn them into a CHR listener if Lifehouse is followed up by "A Bay Bay".

I might argue the opposite of atlantaboy's point actually. If there are a lot of mass-appeal rock songs coming out and being picked up by Pop, that's going to help Hot AC, just as it did during Hot AC's golden years in the late 90's. These kinds of songs also help Hot AC by becoming great library tracks a few years down the road.

As Marv pointed out, it's the natural ebb and flow of the CHR format. Where the format went very rhythmic from 2001-2005, it's now turning back to Rock and Pop.

[Slinky]

To add to my previous point, look at how mass-appeal rhythmic songs helped the CHR/Rhythmic and Urban formats from 2001-2005. When those songs started drying up, CHR turned back to pop and rock and CHR/Rhythmic and Urban's ratings have been sliding.

In other words, the fact that Rhythmic was sharing Eminem and 50 Cent with CHR actually helped Rhythmic, and now that Rhythmic and Urban have more exclusives, they're hurting.

Apply the same concept to Alternative in the mid-90's (when they shared with CHR) as opposed to now, and so on.

[atlantaboy]

slinky said:

CHR might be playing the new Rob Thomas but they're not going to go back and play his recurrents and gold the way Hot AC will.

Actually, a lot of CHRs (outside of California) are doing just that - putting rock recurrents by M20 and Goo Goo Dolls back into rotation - seemingly, to compete with the Hot AC's - that's why I'm worried about Hot AC ratings

[Marv]

RebelSweetheart---The smaller percentage of music presently being shared by AC & CHR was just another way of proving how adults started abandoning top 40 radio in the late eighties because the 'soccer moms' who had NO problem listening to the local CHR/Pop station (remember the programming mantra for CHR/Pop for many years--play music that the kids/teenagers and their parents like so that you can sell merchandise to their parents) absolutely HATED rap music and its vulgarity, and didn't want their highly impressionable sons and daughters hearing that garbage pollute their sensitive eardrums.

There were still plenty of artists who were HUGE at both CHR/Pop and AC as late as 1991, including Roxette, Phil Collins, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, George Michael, Wilson Phillips, Madonna, Taylor Dayne and LOTS of others, but by the time 1992 rolled around, CHR/Pop was buried in rap and hip-hop, and the 'soocer moms' and other baby-boomers were just about gone, although they did come back in 1997 before leaving AGAIN a few years ago.

Slinky is right AGAIN (big surprise, huh?); TONS of the biggest Hot AC tunes of the late nineties which were also HUGE at top 40 radio, such as 'One Headlight', '3AM' & tons of other smashes, are still staples at Hot AC radio almost exclusively, because CHR/Pop stations won't play a NINE or TEN year old song under almost any circumstances.

Since the Country label execs know that tons of of 25-44 and 25-54 women have presets on their CD Walkman and car stereos for both their local AC & Country stations, sending a Tim McGraw, Lee Ann Womack or Martina McBride tune from AC to Country is a no-brainer, but sending a country single to CHR/Pop anytime over the past half-dozen years is a VERY risky proposition.

That explains the SIX-plus year gap between 'The Way You Love Me' & 'Before He Cheats' hitting the top ten at top 40; had either of those songs been released anytime throughout the eighties up until 1990 or 1991, both of them would almost certainly have been MONSTER singles at top 40 radio, and mortal-lock number one singles, IMHO.

Longtime MASS-APPEAL CHR/Pop powerhouses (oh goodness, he's gushing about WNCI AGAIN!!!!) that never leaned too far to the left (alternative) or too far to the right (rhythmic/urban/rap) have done exceptionally well throughout the 'ebb and flow' that has characrerized top 40 radio for the past three decades.

WNCI's positioning statement for most, if not all of the eighties & nineties, was 'Not too hard, not too soft', which just about sums up why they've been so dominant in Columbus, and a VERY-well respected top 40 station for decades, even if KIIS, WHTZ, Tampa's Q105 (until the late eighties), KHKS, KRBE and a handful of other CHR/pop powerhouses got most of the attention from BB & R&R.

One more point about the VERY fine line between AC & Hot AC; according to a column in R&R in 2005 or early 2006, the number one testing song at AC was 'Breathe', whereas 'Unwell' was tops at Hot AC.

That 'very fine line' stems from the number TWO songs at BOTH formats back then, and probably still a top five staple at BOTH formats; that megasmash from five years ago today, 'Complicated'.

No top 40 station is going to play 'Complicated', but will Hot AC, AC & CHR/Pop stations ALL be playing 'Before He Cheats', 'Sexyback' or 'The Sweet Escape' in 2012?

Could happen.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

No top 40 station is going to play 'Complicated',

Marv - you should go to yes.com and look at the station logs for major CHR stations OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA AND FLORIDA :) "Complicated" is in very frequent recurrent rotation on many CHRs throughout the East Coast, South, and Midwest, as is "Semi-Charmed Life" (10 years old), "Don't Speak" (11 years old) "Iris" (9 years old), "Slide" (8 years old), "Everything You Want", "Higher, "Kryptonite", and "With Arms Wide Open" (7 years old) "Hanging By A Moment", "How You Remind Me", "Wherever You Will Go" (6 years old), "When I'm Gone", "Here Without You", "Someday" (4-5 years old), etc.

KIIS doesn't deserve the dignity of even being called a CHR/Pop station, and neither does WFLZ/Tampa or Y100/Miami (they're rhythmic, appealing to the largely Hispanic audience)

"Before He Cheats" has been a huge hit - it just wouldn't hit #1 on the CHR/Pop chart b/c of all the Clear Channel Kiss rhythmic stations that are still labeled as pop, and also b/c some stations (WNKS/Charlotte) played the song months ago, and others (Z100/New York) are playing it now

There really haven't been any other huge country superstars except for the Rascal Flatts and Keith Urban since Faith Hill in 2000 that would've hit the Top 10 CHR between '00 and '07 - I think the only songs that had a chance were "I Hope You Dance" and "You'll Think Of Me" (too AC for a lot of Pop stations) and "What Hurts The Most" (IMO a great song, just not Top 10 pop material)

[musicfanpete]

atlantaboy said:

marv said:

No top 40 station is going to play 'Complicated',

Marv - you should go to yes.com and look at the station logs for major CHR stations OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA AND FLORIDA :) "Complicated" is in very frequent recurrent rotation on many CHRs throughout the East Coast, South, and Midwest, as is "Semi-Charmed Life" (10 years old), "Don't Speak" (11 years old) "Iris" (9 years old), "Slide" (8 years old), "Everything You Want", "Higher, "Kryptonite", and "With Arms Wide Open" (7 years old) "Hanging By A Moment", "How You Remind Me", "Wherever You Will Go" (6 years old), "When I'm Gone", "Here Without You", "Someday" (4-5 years old), etc.

KIIS doesn't deserve the dignity of even being called a CHR/Pop station, and neither does WFLZ/Tampa or Y100/Miami (they're rhythmic, appealing to the largely Hispanic audience)

"Before He Cheats" has been a huge hit - it just wouldn't hit #1 on the CHR/Pop chart b/c of all the Clear Channel Kiss rhythmic stations that are still labeled as pop, and also b/c some stations (WNKS/Charlotte) played the song months ago, and others (Z100/New York) are playing it now

There really haven't been any other huge country superstars except for the Rascal Flatts and Keith Urban since Faith Hill in 2000 that would've hit the Top 10 CHR between '00 and '07 - I think the only songs that had a chance were "I Hope You Dance" and "You'll Think Of Me" (too AC for a lot of Pop stations) and "What Hurts The Most" (IMO a great song, just not Top 10 pop material)

atlantaboy, you forgot to mention any CHR station outside of the Chicago area as well. :)

[atlantaboy]

musicfanpete said:

atlantaboy said:

Marv - you should go to yes.com and look at the station logs for major CHR stations OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA AND FLORIDA :) "Complicated" is in very frequent recurrent rotation on many CHRs throughout the East Coast, South, and Midwest, as is "Semi-Charmed Life" (10 years old), "Don't Speak" (11 years old) "Iris" (9 years old), "Slide" (8 years old), "Everything You Want", "Higher, "Kryptonite", and "With Arms Wide Open" (7 years old) "Hanging By A Moment", "How You Remind Me", "Wherever You Will Go" (6 years old), "When I'm Gone", "Here Without You", "Someday" (4-5 years old), etc.

KIIS doesn't deserve the dignity of even being called a CHR/Pop station, and neither does WFLZ/Tampa or Y100/Miami (they're rhythmic, appealing to the largely Hispanic audience)

"Before He Cheats" has been a huge hit - it just wouldn't hit #1 on the CHR/Pop chart b/c of all the Clear Channel Kiss rhythmic stations that are still labeled as pop, and also b/c some stations (WNKS/Charlotte) played the song months ago, and others (Z100/New York) are playing it now

There really haven't been any other huge country superstars except for the Rascal Flatts and Keith Urban since Faith Hill in 2000 that would've hit the Top 10 CHR between '00 and '07 - I think the only songs that had a chance were "I Hope You Dance" and "You'll Think Of Me" (too AC for a lot of Pop stations) and "What Hurts The Most" (IMO a great song, just not Top 10 pop material)

atlantaboy, you forgot to mention any CHR station outside of the Chicago area as well. :)

Yeah, I don't know what the deal is w/ Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit - I think it's b/c Mix 101.9 is so well-established as a strong Hot AC, and Milwaukee has TWO high-rated Hot ACs (pretty rare) - Detroit has WDVD which is doing alright, but then again, Detroit is the home of Eminem, Everlast, Mo-Town - not much pop/rock coming out of that area - I would guess it's one of the most popular areas for rap and R&B in the country (besides Philly) - Minneapolis and St. Louis don't really have mainstream CHRs either - seems like the closest mainstream CHR to Chicago is WZEE/Madison WI

[Chase]

marv said:

RebelSweetheart---The smaller percentage of music presently being shared by AC & CHR was just another way of proving how adults started abandoning top 40 radio in the late eighties because the 'soccer moms' who had NO problem listening to the local CHR/Pop station (remember the programming mantra for CHR/Pop for many years--play music that the kids/teenagers and their parents like so that you can sell merchandise to their parents) absolutely HATED rap music and its vulgarity, and didn't want their highly impressionable sons and daughters hearing that garbage pollute their sensitive eardrums.

There were still plenty of artists who were HUGE at both CHR/Pop and AC as late as 1991, including Roxette, Phil Collins, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, George Michael, Wilson Phillips, Madonna, Taylor Dayne and LOTS of others, but by the time 1992 rolled around, CHR/Pop was buried in rap and hip-hop, and the 'soocer moms' and other baby-boomers were just about gone, although they did come back in 1997 before leaving AGAIN a few years ago.

Thanks for the clarification. It's strange...WNNK Wink 104 here in Harrisburg charts as a Hot AC, and for the most part, their currents are Hot AC material. But their golds come from a wide array of artists, musicians who back in the early 1990's could be found on CHR (Mariah, Phil Collins, Madonna...even Journey). There are two ACs in the market in WARM and WROZ that also cover this ground.

*Make that 3 ACs if you include WQIC in Lebanon

[Marv]

Has WINK 104 EVER been a rhythmic-leaning CHR/Pop station?

I recall meeting a gorgeous young lady with a VERY LOUD jacket with Wink 104 plastered all over it in 1997 at the Museum of Television & Radio in Beverly Hills, and when I asked her where the station was located and what its format was, she gladly told me.

She did tell me that it was a rhythmic-leaning CHR/Pop station, but a discussion I had with another WNNK listener on the old R&R board indicated that WNNK had always been a Hot AC station, but I seem to recall that WNNK was a top 40 station, and that it and the long-gone KZQZ/San Francisco both flopped as top 40 stations when they were launched--KZQZ was launched in 1997, IIRC.

I also recall that Wink 104's PD was later promoted to PD at the incomparable WNCI, which took place shortly after their legendary PD (Dave Robbins) was transferred to the PDs chair by CC at Chicago's country US99.5 (WUSN).

Atlantaboy---thanks for the tip about Yes.com--I've never used it, so I do have some exploring to do.

Given my remarks about 'Complicated', you undoubtedly know that I don't listen to top 40 radio anymore; our rhythmic-leaning Hot AC (KBIG) does play some of the rhythmic stuff that KIIS-FM does, but that's Clear Channel corporate programming strategy--it's so-called 'wall of women' method of locking up as many females as possible between KIIS, AC powerhouse KOST, KBIG & Alternative legend KROQ, a strategy which they undoubtedly employ in just about ALL of their markets.

But as I've stated before, Hot AC's #1 problem continues to be trying to become the best-sounding station in market after market since CHR/Pop blew off most of its adult listeners at various times over the past two decades, but being prevented by corporate-imposed roadblocks, with that 250-300 song limit on their library size being the #1 culprit.

There is no doubt in my mind that any Hot AC station which doubled the size of its libraries to include most of the top 40 singles of the mid-eighties to late nineties (1982-1997) while playing all of the newcomers they now play would do exceptionally well, and especially with the ultra-desirable women 25-54 demo.

But such a strategy would undoubtedly come at the expense of their AC, CHR/Pop and Country sister stations, and I guess that Clear Channel can't tolerate that.

So much for 'striving to be the best you can be', huh?

[Slinky]

WNNK was a heritage CHR that ruled the Harrisburg market for many years. They always leaned adult and survived a direct challenge from Q106 (now Active Rock "The X"). What finally did them in as a CHR was the launch of a Clear Channel Kiss-FM clone in the market in the early 00's. Kiss-FM shot to 1st place 12+ and Wink fell down a few notches.

Realizing that most of their audience was older and that they could never really compete with the rhythmic-leaning CHR in town, Wink switched to Hot AC to superserve their adult audience and capitalize on their heritage. It's worked out pretty well: Wink is back up to #2 in the market, and with an 8.3 share, has claimed its place as one of the top Hot ACs in the country.

The Kiss-FM on the other hand is floundering in 9th place, struggling to compete with Hot 92, another rhythmic-leaning Pop station that Cumulus, owners of Wink 104, launched after Kiss unseated Wink at the top spot in the market. It doesn't look like Harrisburg can support 2 CHRs. Contrary to most mid-Atlantic markets, it's very Hot AC-friendly.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

Given my remarks about 'Complicated', you undoubtedly know that I don't listen to top 40 radio anymore

since CHR/Pop blew off most of its adult listeners at various times over the past two decades, but being prevented by corporate-imposed roadblocks, with that 250-300 song limit on their library size being the #1 culprit.

I think the situation might be a lot simpler than we're makin' it out to be - all (or most) of the CHRs that play all those rock recurrents dating back to "Semi-Charmed Life" and "Don't Speak" and even "Ants Marching" don't have strong Hot AC's in their markets

Examples:
WNKS/Charlotte - WLNK only plays HAC music on weekends
WSTR/Atlanta and WWWQ/Atlanta - no HAC in market
WPRO/Providence - Hot AC in market is basically an AC
WSSX/Charleston SC - Hot AC in market is basically AAA
and has very low ratings
WKZL/Greensboro NC - no Hot AC in market
WNOK/Columbia SC - no Hot AC in market
WPST/Trenton-Philadelphia - no Hot AC in market
WFLY/Albany - WRVE is basically Adult Hits

Exceptions: WXKS/Boston, KRBE/Houston, KHKS/Dallas,
WNCI/Columbus

In other words, the existence of a strong Hot AC in the market has forced the CHR in that market to either become rhtyhmic-leaning or just more current

For example, if KYSR/Los Angeles were to drop Hot AC, KIIS would finally IMO go back to being a balanced rock-pop station - same thing if WTMX/Chicago dropped HAC or WDVD/Detroit (not that that's what I'd want :))

[Kid Pulse]

Check out this old thread:

pulsemusic.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=aaa&action=display&thread=1135520947


Kind of funny how just about 18-20 months ago, people were saying Hot AC is drifing away from pop, but now less than 2 years later, we have a thread with the exact opposite theme.

[Marv]

But given the fact that the CHR/Pop format has had a ton of great news ratings-wise from the usual suspects, with WDCG, KHKS, WVKS, KIIS & WHTZ leading the charge, the format is enjoying a huge boost almost exactly like the one which started a decade ago.

You can all thank Carrie Underwood, Maroon5, Fergie, Gwen Stefani & Justin for the renaissance at top 40 radio this year.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

But given the fact that the CHR/Pop format has had a ton of great news ratings-wise from the usual suspects, with WDCG, KHKS, WVKS, KIIS & WHTZ leading the charge, the format is enjoying a huge boost almost exactly like the one which started a decade ago.

You can all thank Carrie Underwood, Maroon5, Fergie, Gwen Stefani & Justin for the renaissance at top 40 radio this year.

Also Nickelback and Daughtry :) (prob. more than Carrie Underwood or Gwen Stefani, who each only had one big hit this year)

[dth1971]

Could CHR/Hot AC merge and cause trouble to AT40 with Ryan Seacrest, AT20 with Casey Kasem, and/or Rick Dees Weekly Top 40??

[Marv]

The formats have two separate audiences as their respective core demos, so a merger is flat-out impossible.

They've been sharing music since at least 1993, which isn't a secret either.

[Marv]

Does anyone happen to know how many of the 40 songs on Seacrest's countdown show does he play all the way through?

Also, does anyone know of any other Hot AC countdown shows out there besides Casey Kasem's weekly masterpiece?

Thanks!!

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

The formats have two separate audiences as their respective core demos, so a merger is flat-out impossible.

A merger isn't impossible, it just isn't being set up that way right now -

Many CHR stations appeal to either an older core demo (WSTR, WSTW, WIXX, WPST) or a younger demo (Clear Channel Kiss stations) ...in fact, many cities have two CHR stations, one which appeals to the older demo and one which appeals to the younger - CHR just means that the station focuses on a reasonable variety of current hits

IMO whether Hot AC merges with CHR should have less to do with demographics, and more to do with whether the Hot AC stations play a high % of CURRENT music - if a HAC station only plays 1-2 currents per hour, and lots of songs from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, it doesn't seem fair for that station to report to a CHR chart (CHR = Contemporary Hit Radio)

[Marv]

A merger of Hot AC & CHR/Pop (which will never happen) would be a disaster for Hot AC listeners as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to be so rhythmic heavy and infested with rap from the likes of 50 Cent & Akon.

A longtime positioning statement for Hot AC stations in numerous markets for most of the past FIFTEEN years has been 'Today's Best Music Without the Rap and Hard Rock', which perfectly describes the Hot AC format.

Any station which plays hard-core rap music shouldn't expect adults to listen to their station for an extended period of time (if at all).

If any Hot AC station played 'Makes Me Wonder' or 'The Sweet Escape' as frequently as those record-shattering spin numbers (SPSPD-Spins Per Station Per Day) which 'Over & Over' racked up a few years ago at top 40 radio (and will certainly never be broken, or even approached, they'd alienate their audience tremendously.

Hot AC stations have MUCH larger libraries than CHR/Pop stations because they can go back MUCH farther than 99.9999999% of the CHR/Pop stations out there, and especially on weekends.

Therefore, the percentage of NON-current music which Hot AC stations (as well as Country, Rock, Smooth Jazz, AC and other adult-targeted formats) will always be higher than those tiny, burnt-to-a-crisp libraries that CHR/Pop stations, for the most part, have been hamstrung with for the past few years.

Nine of the top ten CHR/Pop singles of the eighties are staples at AC & Hot AC radio because CHR/Pop stations cannot play songs that were hits before the overwhelming majority of their core listening audiences of today were either not born yet or in kindergarten!!!

That's another reason why CHR/Pop and Hot AC will always have their separate music buyers, audiences, charts, and concert attendees.

The 18-34 year-olds out there can be glued to their CHR/Pop stations while their 25-54 brothers, sisters & parents can listen to their local AC or Hot AC station at will.

The 25-34 year-olds (almost exclusively females) who can and do listen to CHR and either of the others can easily listen to both Hot AC and AC because of their subtantially larger libraries, and especially a much wider variety of music which they can tolerate, which effectively removes 50 Cent and Eminem from AC and Hot AC playlists--unless the PD is a megacolossal idiot dying for a severance check.

[shocker]

marv said:

There were still plenty of artists who were HUGE at both CHR/Pop and AC as late as 1991, including Roxette, Phil Collins, Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, George Michael, Wilson Phillips, Madonna, Taylor Dayne and LOTS of others, but by the time 1992 rolled around, CHR/Pop was buried in rap and hip-hop, and the 'soocer moms' and other baby-boomers were just about gone

True about '92. That year saw a drastic rise in not only rap, but grunge-rock. Both genres were hated by many adults, including 20-somethings like myself at the time.

Mainstream pop and AC-oriented material seemed to be shoved aside in '92. I remember Lionel Richie making a long-awaited comeback that year, and he really strugged in getting attention at CHR.

However, you might recall that adults returned to CHR in 1994 because the biggest hits of that year had a much softer sound. There was still plenty of grunge and rap being played; but Elton John, Madonna, Mariah Carey, All-4-One, Ace of Base, Janet Jackson, Lisa Loeb, Celine Dion, Bon Jovi, and Sheryl Crow had huge CHR hits that year which were very AC-friendly.

marv said:

although they did come back in 1997 before leaving AGAIN a few years ago.

You know why that was, don't you? Around 1997, Hot AC had suddenly become more alternative-sounding. Harder-rock artists and their songs were getting heavy airplay at the more modern-sounding Hot ACs, and even some conservative Hot ACs were moving in a more modern direction. CHR at that time was starting to play the softer sounds of boy bands, which would later have a mass-adult appeal.

[Chase]

marv said:

The 25-34 year-olds (almost exclusively females) who can and do listen to CHR and either of the others can easily listen to both Hot AC and AC because of their subtantially larger libraries, and especially a much wider variety of music which they can tolerate, which effectively removes 50 Cent and Eminem from AC and Hot AC playlists--unless the PD is a megacolossal idiot dying for a severance check.

Are you saying that these 25-34 year olds will come to Hot AC and AC anyway, and that's why these two formats stay away from rhythmic-leaning artists that CHR/Pop will play?

[Marv]

Yes, that is indeed the case; several AC PDs have stated in the weekly Hot AC/AC column of Chuck Taylor in R&R all year and in previous years that as thousands of (potential) new listeners move into their #1 demo (25-54 women), they are constantly challenged to keep their stations contemporary with femiliar music from all genres, since there aren't that many artists who are AC only.

There is a definite line between the 24-year old female listeners and the 25-year old female listeners, and the AC and Hot AC PDs certainly know that.

Between the rise in various responsibilities, possibly getting married, starting a family, or delaying starting a fmily to get their careers underway and things like that, females in that age bracket still want to feel up-to-date and contemporary, leaving many AC and Hot AC PDs obssessed with satisfying their musical and entertainment needs that they can't find on their local CHR/Pop station anymore.

Both Hot AC and AC stations are 100% free from hard core rap music (unless, as I stated last time, the PD is an idiot!!!), which consequently leads to being able to widen the station's listening base, something which many CHR/Pop stations can't do because the presence of hard-core rap music on their playlists limits their ability to snag the so-called 'soccer moms', who usually have a huge amount of clout as it relates to making major purchasing decisions, with homes and automobiles topping the list, and the TONS of disposable income they have.

Shocker's post about CHR's mini-resurgence in 1994 and full-blown resurgence in 1997 is absolutely on the money.

The BackStreet Boys were a huge gift to AC PDs in 1997, and that's also why 'Incomplete' was a smash at AC radio a year or so ago, yet fared much less successfully at CHR/Pop due to the dominance of rap music on the charts & at retail.

All three formats will always share music, yet the percentage of music which AC shares with CHR/Pop has never been lower, while the percentage of music shared by Hot AC and CHR/Pop has been all over the lot since 1992, depending on how 'balanced' the CHR/Pop format is at any given time.

[atlantaboy]

It's true that some HAC's appeal to 25-54 women (the ones that still play lots of hits from the 70s and 80s), but there's also a lot of HAC's that appeal to 25-34 women, and play 30 Seconds to Mars, Linkin Park, "Paralyzer" by Finger Eleven etc. - it's these HACs that are catering to the SAME DEMOGRAPHIC as many CHRs, and these HACs play 80% contemporary hits (KYSR today, KMXB, KLCA, KUDD, WPTE, WKRQ, WZPL, etc.) - because these HACs focus on contemporary hits and most play a wide variety of music (except for rap) these are the stations I think should be reporting to the CHR panel -

Whoever made the rule that a station has to play rap to be CHR? KIIS/Los Angeles? Clear Channel? Anyhow, it doesn't make sense. Plenty of CHRs don't play hard rock, and they report to the CHR panel - so IMO these active current-focused HACs that don't play rap should also be reporting to the CHR panel

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

.
yet the percentage of music which AC shares with CHR/Pop has never been lower

???
Nine of the Top 10 AC songs this week are/were big CHR/Pop hits - the only song that's Top 10 at AC (mainstream) and wasn't a hit on CHR is "Everything" by Michael Buble

[Marv]

There is no such rule which states that a rap station has to be a CHR/Pop station, but as long as the vast majority of them continue to play the overwhelming percentage of rap music that they do play while simultaneously being focused on the same 12-17 and 18-34 demos as Urban and CHR/Rhythmic stations lust after, they can and will play rap music to stay competitive with the under-30 age bracket.

Hot AC and AC stations will never play rap music, since they have their own distinct target audiences which are substantially different from the CHR/Pop, CHR/Rhythmic & Urban audiences.

Consequently, merging the Hot AC charts with any other format and/or chart remains impossible as well as pointless and indefensibly stupid!!!!, and it's been that way for over fifteen years since the creation of the Hot AC format.

It makes about as much sense to merge a CHR/Pop chart with a Hot AC chart as it would to merge a Smooth Jazz chart with a Country chart.

Given the hefty percentages of 25-54 year-olds who routinely listen to their Hot AC, Country, AC and Smooth Jazz but won't go near a CHR/Pop station geared to high-schoolers under any circumstances, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that those folks would also have a next-to-zero chance of being spotted at a 50 Cent concert.

[shocker]

atlantaboy said:

marv said:

.
yet the percentage of music which AC shares with CHR/Pop has never been lower

???
Nine of the Top 10 AC songs this week are/were big CHR/Pop hits - the only song that's Top 10 at AC (mainstream) and wasn't a hit on CHR is "Everything" by Michael Buble

Very good point. Many lighter CHR hits eventually become big AC charters; but they key word here is "eventually"! Regular AC will often wait weeks or months to add a song after it becomes a CHR success.

If you want to talk about a musical era that had an extremely low percentage of CHR that crossed over to AC, it would be the 1960s. The British invasion, Motown R&B, and controversial protest songs were big CHR hits during much of that decade; but AC (known back then as easy listening) was confined to spinning Tony Bennett, Dean Martin, and Johnny Mathis. AC back then wanted no part of the Stones or the Beatles. Even "Yesterday" never made the AC chart - believe it or not!

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

It makes about as much sense to merge a CHR/Pop chart with a Hot AC chart as it would to merge a Smooth Jazz chart with a Country chart.

No offense man but I think that's a stretch :) CHR and Hot AC share about 75% of their music (esp. the songs in HIGH ROTATION) while Smooth Jazz and Country share 0% of their music