atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 28, 2007 10:09:03 GMT -5
Given the hefty percentages of 25-54 year-olds who routinely listen to their Hot AC, Country, AC and Smooth Jazz but won't go near a CHR/Pop station geared to high-schoolers under any circumstances, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that those folks would also have a next-to- zero chance of being spotted at a 50 Cent concert. Sorry to keep disagreeing with you man but -only about 1/4 of the CHR/Pop stations on the panel are geared towards high-schoolers and in my opinion they should be on the rhythmic panel -many Hot AC and AC listeners (and country listeners in the South) DO listen to CHR/Pop as a secondary station (as long as it's not a Clear-Channel Kiss/teen station) AND -adults have just as much of a chance being spotted at a 50 Cent concert as they do being spotted at a Linkin Park concert, yet many Hot AC stations play Linkin Park
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Aug 28, 2007 21:17:58 GMT -5
Back in the sixties, top 40 radio was truly a mass-apppeal format, as AC (then called MOR, for Middle-Of The Road) artists such as Bobby Darin, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, & Ray Charles hit #1 at top 40 radio, and many instrumentals, as well as just about all of the theme songs from the string of James Bond films routinely went top ten, and frequently top five.
It certainly remained that way throughout the seventies and most of the eighties.
Nevertheless, CHR/Pop and AC charts and formats have zero chances of merging as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to play rap music, which they've been doing for twenty years.
The fact that rap music is very prevalent at top 40 radio and non-existent at AC (let alone Hot AC) makes merging any of those charts and formats impossible.
No Hot AC PD is going to risk blowing off those bread-and-butter 25-54 adults unless he or she is extremely stupid---they certainly saw what happened to top 40 radio starting in the late eighties.
They're not about to repeat that enormous blunder.
CHR/Pop isn't the mass-appeal format that it used to be (they've conceded that demo to AC & Hot AC even though they'll never admit it), and the fact that most of those CHR/Pop stations in our twenty largest cities just don't have the 25-54 numbers that they had in the eighties is proof enough.
Their fixation with the 12-17 & 18-34 demos is another albatross for the format, so getting respectable 25-54 numbers is a bonus.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 29, 2007 8:43:58 GMT -5
The fact that rap music is very prevalent at top 40 radio and non-existent at AC (let alone Hot AC) makes merging any of those charts and formats impossible. No it doesn't man...back in the 90s there were CHRs that played rap and CHRs that didn't play rap and all of them reported to the same panel - that's why the CHR chart was balanced in the 90s
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 29, 2007 8:50:33 GMT -5
No Hot AC PD is going to risk blowing off those bread-and-butter 25-54 adults unless he or she is extremely stupid---they certainly saw what happened to top 40 radio starting in the late eighties. Then what about all the Hot AC stations that play LINKIN PARK?? Their PDs are "blowing off" adults older than 35!! I guess they're "extremely stupid"!! Bottom line IMO...many Hot AC's are NOT appealing to 35-54 year olds...they're appealing to 25-34 year olds as a core demo, concentrating on current hits, and should be reporting to the CHR chart (even though they don't play rap) In the post for the new Vanessa Carlton song, someone in Indiana mentioned that his/her Hot AC station is playin "Gold Digger" by Kanye West - I'm assuming it's WZPL, which SHOULD BE REPORTING TO THE CHR PANEL!!! (Sorry I really hate how messed up the CHR chart is b/c of stations like this...) :)
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Aug 29, 2007 17:22:58 GMT -5
WZPL evolved to Hot AC well over a decade ago; they were just one of numerous onetime CHR/Pop powerhouses who bailed from the CHR/Pop format in the late eighties/early nineties because they lost most of their teens to upstart CHR/Rhythmic stations.
Linkin Park happens to be a ROCK band; I don't see any of their tunes on either the CHR/Rhythmic or Urban charts.
Hot AC stations are cash cows; even with so-so ratings, they can still make tons of money.
As long as top 40 stations play their power songs over 100 times per week, a merger of the CHR/Pop format or charts with anything other than CHR/Rhythmic would be indefensibly asinine.
All things considered, the Hot AC format is merely okay as it is, except for the corporate-imposed limitations which prevent the format from really booming and reaching millions of more listeners.
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Kid Pulse
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Post by Kid Pulse on Aug 29, 2007 20:20:14 GMT -5
Just to butt into this conversation, Linkin Park are more of an alternative/modern rock band anyway. If it weren't for "In The End", I doubt that pop would pay any attention to them. The fact that rap music is very prevalent at top 40 radio and non-existent at AC (let alone Hot AC) makes merging any of those charts and formats impossible. No it doesn't man...back in the 90s there were CHRs that played rap and CHRs that didn't play rap and all of them reported to the same panel - that's why the CHR chart was balanced in the 90s I agree with you here because back in the 90s 2Pac and Biggie didn't really go top 10 on pop radio, but this decade Eminem and 50 Cent did, not to mention Akon and T-Pain more recently. Back in the 90s, Third Eye Blind and the Gin Blossoms went top 10. Right now, Lifehouse is struggling to make the top 15. Maybe those compairisons are weird, but that's why I agree with that.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 30, 2007 11:12:36 GMT -5
WZPL evolved to Hot AC well over a decade ago; they were just one of numerous onetime CHR/Pop powerhouses who bailed from the CHR/Pop format in the late eighties/early nineties because they lost most of their teens to upstart CHR/Rhythmic stations. Linkin Park happens to be a ROCK band; I don't see any of their tunes on either the CHR/Rhythmic or Urban charts. As long as top 40 stations play their power songs over 100 times per week, a merger of the CHR/Pop format or charts with anything other than CHR/Rhythmic would be indefensibly asinine. With all due respect man your logic IMO is going in circles...you said no PD of a Hot AC station would touch rap, and that WZPL is a Hot AC station, yet WZPL is playing Kanye West You also keep saying that Hot AC's are aimed at 25-54 listeners, yet many of them play LINKIN PARK (not many fans over age 35!!) What does being played on Rhythmic or Urban have to do with it? Are you sayin 35-54 year olds don't mind heavy metal/hard rock, but can't stand rap? Less than half the CHRs on the panel are rotating their top hits 100 times a week - the majority rotate their top songs anywhere from 55-80 times a week, the same as many HACs CHRs in the 90s rotated their top songs only 50-70 times per week...again, the same as many current HAC stations that should be reporting to the CHR panel The CHR Top 10 currently shares 4 hits with the HAC Top 10, but only shares 2 hits with the Rhythmic Top 10 - CHR and HAC are much more similar then CHR and Rhythmic (esp. if you look at the Top 20)...just look at the charts - Besides, why on Earth would you merge CHR and RHYTHMIC making the CHR charts even more skewed than they already are?
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Aug 30, 2007 22:41:38 GMT -5
Any Hot AC PD in America will tell you that their #1 target demo is women 25-54, and if they snag any men or teenagers in the process, the more the merrier, as the saying goes.
Hot AC stations (such as WZPL) have to be extremely careful with playing rap music, and it all depends on the market.
You seem to keep forgetting that the Hot AC format was EXPRESSLY created for adults who liked to hear the hits but COULDN'T TOLERATE rap music.
If WZPL's PD wants to roll the dice by playing Kanye West, then that's their neck that's out on the chopping block.
Some rap tunes have made 'Casey's Top 20', his Hot AC countdown show, which shows that there are SOME AC PDs who like living dangerously by playing music outside the parameters of the Hot AC format, and the PD @ WZPL happens to be one of them.
I don't know if Indy's CHR/Pop station (Radio Now, aka WNOU) is as rhythmic-heavy as WKSC or as balanced as WNCI or WNKS, but as is the case in tons of markets from coast-to-coast, WZPL & WNOU obviously do share listeners, as do lots of Hot AC and CHR/Pop stations in tons of markets.
In a city such as Indy, which happens to be the home of the #1 major market Country (WFMS) and Classic Rock (WFBQ) stations in America, that PD @ WZPL obviously knows that he (or she) has tons of adults who have WNOU, WZPL, WFMS & WFBQ on their presets, the risk in playing a Kanye West is still there for alienating some members of your listening audience.
Indy happens to be a GREAT city for great radio, even without an Oldies station.
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Chase
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Post by Chase on Aug 30, 2007 23:18:50 GMT -5
WZPL evolved to Hot AC well over a decade ago; they were just one of numerous onetime CHR/Pop powerhouses who bailed from the CHR/Pop format in the late eighties/early nineties because they lost most of their teens to upstart CHR/Rhythmic stations. Linkin Park happens to be a ROCK band; I don't see any of their tunes on either the CHR/Rhythmic or Urban charts. As long as top 40 stations play their power songs over 100 times per week, a merger of the CHR/Pop format or charts with anything other than CHR/Rhythmic would be indefensibly asinine. With all due respect man your logic IMO is going in circles...you said no PD of a Hot AC station would touch rap, and that WZPL is a Hot AC station, yet WZPL is playing Kanye West You also keep saying that Hot AC's are aimed at 25-54 listeners, yet many of them play LINKIN PARK (not many fans over age 35!!) What does being played on Rhythmic or Urban have to do with it? Are you sayin 35-54 year olds don't mind heavy metal/hard rock, but can't stand rap? Less than half the CHRs on the panel are rotating their top hits 100 times a week - the majority rotate their top songs anywhere from 55-80 times a week, the same as many HACs CHRs in the 90s rotated their top songs only 50-70 times per week...again, the same as many current HAC stations that should be reporting to the CHR panel The CHR Top 10 currently shares 4 hits with the HAC Top 10, but only shares 2 hits with the Rhythmic Top 10 - CHR and HAC are much more similar then CHR and Rhythmic (esp. if you look at the Top 20)...just look at the charts - Besides, why on Earth would you merge CHR and RHYTHMIC making the CHR charts even more skewed than they already are? Is there a strong CHR lacking in WZPL's market? If so, maybe that's the reason behind WZPL's strategy. I'm not sold on the CHR/Hot AC merger myself. There is very little overlap between the two formats. If CHR were the mass-appeal format that it was 10-15 years ago, I might understand. But then again, isn't Hot AC's existence due in large part to CHR's deterioration as a mass-appeal format? If you're going to combine charts, why not combine CHR/Rhythmic and CHR/Pop? They seem to have more common ground. Also, I agree that Hot AC needs to expand its library and capitalize on its CHR roots.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Aug 31, 2007 9:13:04 GMT -5
I'm not sold on the CHR/Hot AC merger myself. There is very little overlap between the two formats. If CHR were the mass-appeal format that it was 10-15 years ago, I might understand. But then again, isn't Hot AC's existence due in large part to CHR's deterioration as a mass-appeal format? If you're going to combine charts, why not combine CHR/Rhythmic and CHR/Pop? The CHR/Pop chart is much more similar to the Hot AC chart than it is to the Rhythmic chart...just look it up on the threads :) CHR/Pop and Hot AC share 10 songs this week in their Top 20 CHR/Pop and Rhythmic (which isn't even considered a CHR anymore by mediabase) only share 7 songs in their Top 20 Also, IMO CHR stopped becoming a mass-appeal format BECAUSE Hot AC's started breaking away from the panel (or were created) - if Hot AC didn't exist, CHR would play ALL the hits, as CHRs do that don't have HACs in their markets (such as Atlanta, Greensboro, Trenton-Philadelphia, etc.) I just wanna see a fair, balanced CHR chart like there was in the 80s and 90s...and u can't have that if for example KIIS purposely doesn't play any rock b/c it co-owns KYSR and doesn't want to compete with it or if WKSC/Chicago leaves all pop/rock hits for WTMX to play Oh yeah...also I don't think the HAC and CHR charts should be combined - I just think HAC stations that are acting like CHRs (playin songs 55-80 times a week, focusing on 80% current hits, playing Linkin Park, Rihanna, and Kanye West, etc.) should be reporting to the CHR panel
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Sept 6, 2007 10:18:06 GMT -5
Chase---You nailed it; WZPL was just one of TONS of CHR/Pop powerhouses which (as KIIS did when KPWR blew their doors off in 1987) started overloading on rap music to avoid losing their teens, and the CHR/Pop format lost millions of adult listeners and lost far more stations than any other format.
The same thing happened in Tampa, San Antonio and numerous other markets; WZPL and WNCI (Columbus, Oh.) had 12+ shares for most of the eighties, but WZPL was shredded by 'Hoosier 96' (WHHH), and KBBT thrashed KTFM in San Antonio, so WZPL evolved to a Hot AC station, and dozens of CHR/Pop stations bailed out of the format as well.
WNCI is still as huge as ever, and getting an 8.0-10.0+ share at any CHR/Pop station these days is still exceptional, and especially in a city as large as Columbus, just to let you realize what an extraordinary format MONSTER it remains today.
You're right again about the existence of the Hot AC (or Adult Top 40) format; take the best of all types of music except for rap, of course--playing Elton John & Eminem on the same radio station is a recipe for disaster!!!! toss in a huge percentage of the biggest CHR/Pop smashes of the eighties, and you'd have a flame throwin' ass-kicking radio station which could sound as exceptional as KIIS, WNCI , WZPL, Q105, or lots of other killer CHR/Pop stations sounded like throughout the eighties, and you'd undoubtedly own your market.
When Star 98.7 flipped to Hot AC in 1992 (TWO years before Hot AC charts were even published in BB & R&R) it was arguably the best Hot AC in the nation before Tracy Johnson left another ass kicking, legendary CHR/Pop station of the eighties (San Diego's Q106) to launch Hot AC Star 100.7.
Unfortunately, the beancounters at CC are beancounters first and not 'radio guys', and the straitjacket which Hot AC finds itself being strangled with today prevents the format from being as exhilirating as WNCI or WZPL (and KIIS of course) sounded throughout the eighties, as well as heritage CHR/Pop powerhouses in cities such as Austin, Dallas, Houston, Providence, Minneapolis, Detroit, Orlando, Miami, Jacksonville & tons of others.
In spite of CHR/Pop's comeback this year, it still is not the mass-appeal monster format that it used to be during the eighties, which is something that Hot AC does a much better job of these days, at least until CHR/Pop stations go back to playing acts who were huge at both AC & CHR/Pop stations throughout the eighties, which isn't about to happen anytime soon.
Hot AC and CHR/Pop have been sharing music for almost sixteen years, so this is really nothing new.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Sept 6, 2007 16:28:24 GMT -5
You're right again about the existence of the Hot AC (or Adult Top 40) format; take the best of all types of music except for rap, of course--playing Elton John & Eminem on the same radio station is a recipe for disaster!!!! toss in a huge percentage of the biggest CHR/Pop smashes of the eighties, and you'd have a flame throwin' ass-kicking radio station which could sound as exceptional as KIIS, WNCI , WZPL, Q105, or lots of other killer CHR/Pop stations sounded like throughout the eighties, and you'd undoubtedly own your market. When Star 98.7 flipped to Hot AC in 1992 (TWO years before Hot AC charts were even published in BB & R&R) it was arguably the best Hot AC in the nation before Tracy Johnson left another ass kicking, In spite of CHR/Pop's comeback this year, it still is not the mass-appeal monster format that it used to be during the eighties, which is something that Hot AC does a much better job of these days, at least until CHR/Pop stations go back to playing acts who were huge at both AC & CHR/Pop stations throughout the eighties, which isn't about to happen anytime soon. Marv - what HAC do you listen to? Your view of HAC seems to be very outdated...barely any HACs play Elton John anymore - as a matter of fact, ur more likely on most HACs to hear "Over And Over" by Nelly than you are to hear an Elton John song - most now are geared towards a similar audience as mainstream (not teen-oriented Clear Channel Kiss) CHRs...look up Star 98.7 LA s hourly song listing on yes.com and you'll see that they're NOT catering to anyone over the age of 40 (and neither are most other HACs) And you gotta stop tellin people they're right or wrong man - HAC and CHR are much closer now than CHR and rhythmic - the person you said was "right" was sayin that CHR and HAC don't have much in common and that CHR should be combined with rhythmic - and an accurate count of mass-appeal formats has to include both HAC and CHR b/c HAC excludes rap but not hard rock etc. like Linkin Park Combine CHR with rhythmic, and the highest Lifehouse can peak on CHR is probably #30!! Is that what you want to see?
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Sept 6, 2007 21:48:34 GMT -5
Having a rhythmic-leaning Hot AC (KBIG) and an alternative-leaning Hot AC (KYSR) here in LA is pretty cool, but neither one can really realize its potential because for either of them to be refocused to be the best sounding radio station in the market would undoubtedly take an enormous bite out of KOST & KIIS, two of Clear Channel's franchise properties.
That is the problem in market after market; unrealized potential is yet another reason to despise Clear Channel and the other behemoths.
I wish it weren't that way, as do millions of other baby-boomers who grew up listening to top 40 radio, but had to bail out twenty years ago when rap and anti-female music started polluting the airwaves.
KYSR, Star 100.7, Mix 96 & Boston's Hot AC (WMBX?) all came along in the early nineties, and hot AC became the best format in America for those of us over 30; leave it to Clear Channel to screw that up as well.
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Chase
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Post by Chase on Sept 6, 2007 22:13:15 GMT -5
^This is why the Telecommunications Act of 1996 should burn in hell.
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Marv
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Post by Marv on Sept 6, 2007 22:23:04 GMT -5
The day that that reprehensible bill was signed was the worst day in the history of North American radio.
Listenable, freewheeling and unpredictable radio went out the door that day, and was replaced by dull, safe, predictable, gutless, overresearched and overconsulted radio.
Thank goodness for XM Satellite Radio.
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atlantaboy
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Post by atlantaboy on Sept 8, 2007 10:09:03 GMT -5
I wish it weren't that way, as do millions of other baby-boomers who grew up listening to top 40 radio, but had to bail out twenty years ago when rap and anti-female music started polluting the airwaves. KYSR, Star 100.7, Mix 96 & Boston's Hot AC (WMBX?) all came along in the early nineties, and hot AC became the best format in America for those of us over 30; leave it to Clear Channel to screw that up as well. Most baby-boomers who listened to Top 40 in the 80s and Hot AC in the 90s are now listening to Mainstream AC - that's why its ratings are HUGE!!! (b/c there's so many baby-boomers who don't like rap or hard rock) - but that's mainstream AC, not Hot AC - most cities now have a mainstream AC that's a reasonable mix of current (past few years) and past hits - does L. A. have one? BTW, I read on Wikipedia (hope it was reliable) that the very first HAC station was Mix 106.5 Baltimore and it started in 1986 as "The Best Mix of the 60s 70s and 80s"
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