Billboard 1990's revised

[frenchfry]

Hello! This is my first chart discussion thread.

In this thread I'd like to discuss the years of 1991-1998 (aka the years Billboard fucked up)

Discussions would be about: big songs that did not chart due to not being a "commercial hit", changes in year/decade end charts, etc.


I'm not sure if a thread like this has been done before (I'm to lazy to look tbh), but if it has... Surprise!




Enjoy     

[brady47]

Apr 7, 2015 19:31:55 GMT -5 frenchfry said:

Hello! This is my first chart discussion thread.

In this thread I'd like to discuss the years of 1991-1998 (aka the years Billboard f**ked up)

Discussions would be about: big songs that did not chart due to not being a "commercial hit", changes in year/decade end charts, etc.


I'm not sure if a thread like this has been done before (I'm to lazy to look tbh), but if it has... Surprise!




Enjoy     

Torn by Natalie Imbruglia. 11 weeks on top of radio airplay, and the amount of recurrent airplay it gets is insane. 24 weeks in the top 5 and 33 weeks in the top 10 for airplay.

Smash Mouth - Walkin' on the Sun - peaked at #2 on airplay, and spent 60 weeks on the airplay chart.

Fly by Sugar Ray peaked at #1 for 4 weeks on airplay and was on the radio chart for 59 weeks.

www.billboard.com/charts/radio-songs/1998-03-07

This airplay chart was so interesting - every song in the top 10 had huge longevity (at least 45 weeks), the only one that didn't was oddly the #1, My Heart Will Go On (30 weeks)

[skizzo]

Billboard ruined the 90s charts, then record labels ruined the 2000s charts (by not releasing singles for sale).

[jebsib]

Billboard ruined nothing.
I appreciate the frustration of the charts not reflecting what we wanted at the time, but look at the facts:

The Hot 100 model - flaws and all - was perfect for the music industry for more than 30 years.
What changed was that Soundscan allowed record companies to 'peak behind the curtain' and tinker with their marketing strategies.

Hindsight is 20/20. No one knew that the "Let's not release songs commercially" trend would stick until early 1996.

There were always songs that were popular that didn't chart. Look at Zeppelin, the Beatles, Madonna, Stevie Wonder. But they gained little traction until monitored airplay and piece-count sales added everything up.

It took a series of risk taking albums by acts such as Garth Brooks and Pearl Jam for the labels to realize they could bypass retail with their singles and still sell millions.

If you read Billboard at the time, you would realize the chart department did everything they could - including test charts that the record companies disapproved - and even publicly begging the record companies to release singles - to turn the situation around years before the Dec 1998 revision.

[Gary]

1994-1998 Airplay "only" top 10's

"Only" in this case means it did on the Hot 100 or was charting in late 1998 when the change hit and did not get the benefit of a full chart run(or in the case of the Rembrandts, charted as the B side to a lesser hit)


ARE YOU THAT SOMEBODY? AALIYAH
AS LONG AS YOU LOVE ME BACKSTREET BOYS
I'LL NEVER BREAK YOUR HEART BACKSTREET BOYS
TAKE ME THERE BLACKSTREET & MYA FEATURING MASE & BLINKY BLINK
LOVEFOOL CARDIGANS
FOREVER MARIAH CAREY
BUTTERFLY KISSES BOB CARLISLE
SAVE TONIGHT EAGLE-EYE CHERRY
A LONG DECEMBER COUNTING CROWS
MR. JONES COUNTING CROWS
MY FAVORITE MISTAKE SHERYL CROW
THE WAY FASTBALL
KILLING ME SOFTLY FUGEES
IRIS GOO GOO DOLLS
SLIDE GOO GOO DOLLS
WHEN I COME AROUND GREEN DAY
TORN NATALIE IMBRUGLIA
STATE OF THE WORLD JANET JACKSON
HANDS JEWEL
3 A.M. MATCHBOX 20
PUSH MATCHBOX 20
REAL WORLD MATCHBOX 20
ANYTIME BRIAN MCKNIGHT
HEAD OVER FEET ALANIS MORISSETTE
THANK U ALANIS MORISSETTE
UNIVITED ALANIS MORISSETTE
LULLABY SHAWN MULLINS
DON'T SPEAK NO DOUBT
HOW BIZARRE OMC
STANDING OUTSIDE A BROKEN PHONE BOOTH WITH MONEY IN MY HAND PRIMITIVE RADIO GODS
I'LL BE THERE FOR YOU REMBRANDTS
CHANUKAH SONG ADAM SANDLER
IF I COULD FALL IN LOVE SELENA
WALKIN' ON THE SUN SMASH MOUTH
JUST THE TWO OF US WILL SMITH
MEN IN BLACK WILL SMITH
MIAMI WILL SMITH
FLY SUGAR RAY
ONE HEADLIGHT WALLFLOWERS

[mkarns]

Apr 7, 2015 19:57:12 GMT -5 brady47 said:

Apr 7, 2015 19:31:55 GMT -5 frenchfry said:

Hello! This is my first chart discussion thread.

In this thread I'd like to discuss the years of 1991-1998 (aka the years Billboard f**ked up)

Discussions would be about: big songs that did not chart due to not being a "commercial hit", changes in year/decade end charts, etc.


I'm not sure if a thread like this has been done before (I'm to lazy to look tbh), but if it has... Surprise!




Enjoy     

Torn by Natalie Imbruglia. 11 weeks on top of radio airplay, and the amount of recurrent airplay it gets is insane. 24 weeks in the top 5 and 33 weeks in the top 10 for airplay.

Smash Mouth - Walkin' on the Sun - peaked at #2 on airplay, and spent 60 weeks on the airplay chart.

Fly by Sugar Ray peaked at #1 for 4 weeks on airplay and was on the radio chart for 59 weeks.

www.billboard.com/charts/radio-songs/1998-03-07

This airplay chart was so interesting - every song in the top 10 had huge longevity (at least 45 weeks), the only one that didn't was oddly the #1, My Heart Will Go On (30 weeks)

Possibly the most egregious example of this was No Doubt's "Don't Speak", in 1996-97. #1 on Hot 100 Airplay for 16 weeks (and #1 in Radio and Records for 11), but a no-show on the Hot 100 itself.

I completely dismiss the Hot 100 for seven years starting in November 1991 as a chart data source, and don't use it much even for later reference (I use Radio & Records and Mediabase to track pop hits from 1991 on, as do many at PMB.) It actually isn't too far off the mark for the first couple of years after that change, but by about 1994 more songs that were big pop culture/radio hits weren't being released as singles (though they often were helping sell lots of albums) and thus nowhere on the chart, while a lot of the supposedly big hits according to the Hot 100 seemed never to be played or heard much even then (let alone recurrently).

[imbondz]

I always think of Iris and Don't Speak as getting a raw deal for not charting. Not that they care. But Iris could easily have went to #1 for a long time back then maybe longer than 16 wks.

Yet on the charts it says it only hit #6.

[jebsib]

Trying to determine the moment the 'commercially unavailable' single became a thing.

"Do the Bartman" reached #11 airplay in early 1991, followed quickly by "State of the World" by Janet Jackson.
But weird stuff like "Ice Ice Baby" being cut out early (a precursor to not being released at all) happened as early as 1990, or "U Can't Touch This" only as a 12" vinyl happened too.
"Do You Love Me" got to #11 in 1988 but not only was not released as a cassingle, but was not actually reissued, relying on record stores selling the 1960s back-stock.

[colson]

These labels were going for album sales and could care less how many singles they sold. As been stated, a number of artists had 'limited' singles in the 90s even when their songs were smash hits at the time.

The turnover at #1 probably would have been higher if singles weren't deleted during it's run and airplay singles were available to retail.

It would have been interesting to see how album sales would have been affected if commercial singles were available during the singles entire airplay run. It's hard to tell at this point.

Songs like Don't Speak, Torn, Killing Me Softly, Men In Black, Lovefool, I'll Be There For You, Fly, Iris, etc were big airplay hits that if they had retail commercial singles could have been #1 singles on the Hot 100.

[Libra]

The year 1991 is, in itself, very interesting to look at in terms of charting monitored airplay Vs. DJs submitting playlists.

As I mentioned earlier today in the Hot 100 thread, the monitored airplay chart was introduced in the December 8, 1990 issue. At that time, (and this is something I wasn't aware of until reading that issue) only large and medium markets were being monitored - smaller markets would be added later. With airplay monitoring still being a work in progress even at that stage, playlists were still used for the Hot 100 for 1991.

You can read those issues - and more - as well as view those charts at the American Radio History website, here:

www.americanradiohistory.com/Billboard-Magazine.htm

[WolfSpear]

Lets analyze the 1990's.

Prior to the 90's, it was practically unheard of to promote a song on the radio and not supply a commercial single. Bon Jovi and Madonna were the first to apply this strategy in attempts to boost album sales... Plus singles sales were actually falling in the U.S. (3 gold singles in 1986, I believe).

Did the airplay only strategy contribute to the big album sales boom of the decade? Yes, but it wasn't the chief reason. There were tons of excellent releases and the illegal downloading scheme wasn't into play yet...

Now... Is the Hot 100 useless? No.

If you were to compile playlists for the decade, you'll have to borrow from the Airplay chart, but the Hot 100 is still a valuable tool to reference for pop music. Yes, it doesn't paint a picture of country, alternative, and R&B due to the stations being added in near the end of the 90's, but the chart was morphing into something bigger and badder than before.

[85la]

Another group of artists who were screwed on the Hot 100 during the 90s, which receives almost no mention, was R&B/Hip-Hop acts, as R&B/Hip-Hop airplay wasn't part of the Hot 100 airplay panel until the '98 change, despite other formats, including Adult Contemporary, Adult Top 40, Modern Rock, and Rhythmic being added much earlier. Most of these formats skewed heavily non-Urban, or basically, White.

Yes, country wasn't included until '98 as well, but I don't believe many country songs were released as commercial singles anyway, and even if they were, they probably wouldn't have made it very high up the chart, whereas if Urban airplay were included, many of those songs might have been able to make more visible thresholds, such as cracking the top ten or even #1. Yes, I am not denying that there were many successful Urban songs during the '90s with the rules that were in place, but many of them were probably even more popular than what the chart showed.

[jenglisbe]

Why are those specific years being picked out when, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of examples from before 1991?

Also, even if a song like "Don't Speak" had been allowed to chart in the mid-90s, its peak would have been relatively low without sales points. Would a, say, #8 peak for it have really satisfied you?

The only thing that bugs me about these years is all genres of airplay not counting.

[WolfSpear]

You're probably right, "Don't Speak" would have likely hit around 8-10 range since sales were still somewhat relevant. I think the one that bugs most people is "Torn" peaking as low as it did when evidentally I could have been a top 10 hit.

Nonetheless, the one thing that is certain is that Billboard did not measure "popularity" until 1998, but rather what they deemed as the "most successful 'pop' songs". Two different definitions of the word 'pop' being used, of course.

Surely, artists like Randy Travis, George Strait, Garth Brooks, Reba etc... Would have charted in the old days had country radio been a factor. Yes, singles sales for the country market deteoriated must sooner than pop but there were '45 releases (and some cassette) being produced, allowing them to have become eligible. All hypotheticals here but it does raise a point... If you want to know what popular overall, you have to look past the Hot 100 for this era.

[KeepDeanWeird]

Apr 19, 2015 10:51:16 GMT -5 WolfSpear said:

You're probably right, "Don't Speak" would have likely hit around 8-10 range since sales were still somewhat relevant. I think the one that bugs most people is "Torn" peaking as low as it did when evidentally I could have been a top 10 hit.

Nonetheless, the one thing that is certain is that Billboard did not measure "popularity" until 1998, but rather what they deemed as the "most successful 'pop' songs". Two different definitions of the word 'pop' being used, of course.

Surely, artists like Randy Travis, George Strait, Garth Brooks, Reba etc... Would have charted in the old days had country radio been a factor. Yes, singles sales for the country market deteoriated must sooner than pop but there were '45 releases (and some cassette) being produced, allowing them to have become eligible. All hypotheticals here but it does raise a point... If you want to know what popular overall, you have to look past the Hot 100 for this era.

Yes, the peaks of certain songs that were on the way down, like Tearin' Up My Heart (59), Torn (#42), Real World (38), I'll Never Break Your Heart (35), Are you that Somebody? (21), Thank U (17), Iris (9) ... All of these have H100 peaks that don't come close to recognizing their hit status.

[jenglisbe]

Commercials singles were more than 'somewhat relevant' when "Don't Speak" charted; as in, they were as relevant as they had been. The songs that didn't have one tended to be rock/alt singles, but it wasn't uncommon for them to not have a single before the '90s either (see Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, etc. having a limited Hot 100 history). In the '80s acts like Public Enemy, Eric B & Rakim, and N.W.A. didn't have many widely released singles.

After the change in 1998, it would have been better to just not allow songs that had been charting to chart at that point, and only airplay-only songs showing gains would have been included. That way at least songs wouldn't have very misleading peaks. Even so, to some degree all airplay-only peaks were a bit misleading as obviously having a commercial single would have helped them chart higher.

[Libra]

Apr 18, 2015 20:56:32 GMT -5 85la said:

Another group of artists who were screwed on the Hot 100 during the 90s, which receives almost no mention, was R&B/Hip-Hop acts, as R&B/Hip-Hop airplay wasn't part of the Hot 100 airplay panel until the '98 change, despite other formats, including Adult Contemporary, Adult Top 40, Modern Rock, and Rhythmic being added much earlier. Most of these formats skewed heavily non-Urban, or basically, White.

For many, this simply wasn't the case though. Pure R&B airplay wasn't counted till later, but "Hip Hop" airplay could be considered at least the rough equivalent, if not the equivalent, of Rhythmic airplay, which of course was counted during that time.

All things considered, the acts who would've suffered, would've been those who weren't crossing over or otherwise were limited in their appeal. How would that have been altogether different from, say, now?

It's also worth noting that many, many R&B/Hip-Hop acts were quite big sellers during the 90s, at least from the issues and charts that I've seen. So what they weren't getting in airplay, they were definitely getting in sales.

[jenglisbe]

Yeah it's very interesting that in the '90s R&B and hip-hop had pretty big singles sales, yet in the '00s and now R&B tends to have low digital sales.

[WolfSpear]

R&B artists would have benefitted on Rhythmic.

Yes, Mainstream and Rhythmic Top 40 appear to mimic each other nowadays, but the genre was basically a "top 40 friendly" version of R&B with some dance. In other words, at one point there used to be R&B that was too urban for the mainstream world and rap wouldn't find itself on those stations either.

[leoapp]

i was also surprised that Mariah, who actually ruled the 90s, only released a few physical singles in mid to late 90s, compared to Madonna for example. A huge album like Daydream to have only 3 official singles (all were Hot 100 #1s) was a mess, when she was at her peak. The 4th airplay only single, a top 10 airplay hit, Forever with physical single could be her next Hot 100 #1. Also her following album, Butterfly only had 2 official singles (all were Hot 100 #1s as well). Butterfly (song) and The Roof could be #1s with right promo and physical singles, cos she was such a huge single seller at that time.

[jenglisbe]

Apr 20, 2015 12:56:17 GMT -5 leoapp said:

i was also surprised that Mariah, who actually ruled the 90s, only released a few physical singles in mid to late 90s, compared to Madonna for example. A huge album like Daydream to have only 3 official singles (all were Hot 100 #1s) was a mess, when she was at her peak. The 4th airplay only single, a top 10 airplay hit, Forever with physical single could be her next Hot 100 #1. Also her following album, Butterfly only had 2 official singles (all were Hot 100 #1s as well). Butterfly (song) and The Roof could be #1s with right promo and physical singles, cos she was such a huge single seller at that time.

"Butterfly" was released when Elton's "Candle In the Wind" tribute to Princess Di was topping the Hot 100 with record sales, so, no, "Butterfly" could not have been #1 considering it didn't even make the top 10 in airplay.

And while I love "The Roof," in what world was that ever going to be a #1?

[jebsib]

Columbia knew what they were doing.
They weren't just going for #1 singles, but "#1 singles in a row" to challenge Whitney, Bee Gees and Elvis.

They knew "Forever", "Butterfly", "Breakdown" couldn't make it;
They thought "I Still Believe" could.

[dajross6]

If country airplay always counted, George Strait would have nearly 100 Hot 100 entries, which would be pretty crazy.

[onebuffalo]

Apr 29, 2015 12:05:09 GMT -5 dajross6 said:

If country airplay always counted, George Strait would have nearly 100 Hot 100 entries, which would be pretty crazy.

You're right. However, how many of those would have been top ten or even #1? His biggest hit is Love Without End, Amen in 1990. Where do you think that would peak on the Hot 100?

[dajross6]

Not much higher. He would definitely be king of the 50-100 range though.

[bat1990]

Has anyone ever thought of applying the formula with all genres and airplay-only songs included to years before Dec 1998? That would be interesting to see.

[Deleted]

I honestly still believe that while the there were still several hit songs missing, the year end Hot 100 charts from 1992 through 1996 mostly did reflect what was popular during those years, but the years where they really mostly dropped the ball were in 1997 and 1998 where over half of the actual hit songs on the radio at the time were not present on the Hot 100. Honestly, I think they did a good job with country, country didn't really start the get too big until the late 90's when several country stations were added. To be honest when it comes to at least the '97 and '98 charts, I depend on the Airplay charts to tell me what were actually popular and the level of popularity these songs were in. But in reality Billboard isn't to blame, is the record companies for refusing to allow singles to be released.

[85la]

I find it ironic that many people complain airplay counts too much now, but wish that the '90s airplay-only songs should have counted. I agree that they should have counted, but take issue with make-believe claims that so-and-so song definitely would have been #1 for multiple weeks on airplay alone. As I think was stated earlier, the first song to reach #1 on airplay alone was Aaliyah's Try Again in 2000, and it was only there for a week and only after singles sales were declining more rapidly. A good example of where an airplay-only song that was #1 on hot 100 airplay might have peaked on the hot 100, if they were allowed pre-'98, was I Want It That Way, which came out in early '99. It was #1 on airplay, but only peaked at #6 on the hot 100.

[85la]

^ in addition to Iris and Slide, which were #9 and #8 after the change, respectively.

[leoapp]

May 2, 2015 12:54:17 GMT -5 85la said:

I find it ironic that many people complain airplay counts too much now, but wish that the '90s airplay-only songs should have counted. I agree that they should have counted, but take issue with make-believe claims that so-and-so song definitely would have been #1 for multiple weeks on airplay alone. As I think was stated earlier, the first song to reach #1 on airplay alone was Aaliyah's Try Again in 2000, and it was only there for a week and only after singles sales were declining more rapidly. A good example of where an airplay-only song that was #1 on hot 100 airplay might have peaked on the hot 100, if they were allowed pre-'98, was I Want It That Way, which came out in early '99. It was #1 on airplay, but only peaked at #6 on the hot 100.

Did I Want It That Way stall at #6 Hot 10 for like 8 weeks? And it was a massive airplay hit in mid 99. It's a huge crime.