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Post by areyoureadytojump on Jul 2, 2016 8:12:05 GMT -5
Usually urban crossover hits find its way to pop playlists after they rise high enough on Hot 100. ''Sorry'' is doing good on iTunes, and with a well-timed Spotify and music video release, it could've been an easy Billboard Top 10 hit months ago, making Top 40 bosses less hesitant to play it.''Drunk in Love'' was way more urban leaning than ''Sorry'' and it still managed to reach #12 on pop. It exploded there the week after it went Top 10 on Hot 100. I very much doubt pop radios have an agenda against Beyonce. It's Beyonce who's distancing herself with all her anti-industry stunts. Beyonce doesn't want any hits. She doesn't *need* any hits. She's making millions and millions from album sales (unlike others) and her sold out tour. She's worked out a formula that doesn't include promoting singles.
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divasummer
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Post by divasummer on Jul 2, 2016 8:26:17 GMT -5
Maybe Beyonce doesn't need general chart hits or CHR hits but she needs songs/hits that people want to hear. If Beyonce's latest didn't have any "Sorry", Hold Up or Formations" I'm not sure if it would be doing as well as it is. Even if "Sorry" didn't get anymore love from CHR I would think of it as a hit in "general" just like "Formation". B is so big she may not need all radio formats right now do to streaming etc but she still wants hits in my opinion.
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norbpeti
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Post by norbpeti on Jul 3, 2016 8:05:58 GMT -5
Formation is the biggest hit of this ERA as of it was ( spent a single week) in the top 1o of the Hot 100 . Sorry is somewhat hit even though it stalled at #11. Still managed to do well on Urban and got some spins on Pop. The album and the Tour are the big winners.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 3, 2016 8:18:34 GMT -5
Pop: 35 34 BEYONCE Sorry 1656 1448 +208 8.323
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2016 9:14:33 GMT -5
Formation is the biggest hit of this ERA as of it was ( spent a single week) in the top 1o of the Hot 100 . Sorry is somewhat hit even though it stalled at #11. Still managed to do well on Urban and got some spins on Pop. The album and the Tour are the big winners. I'd argue that Sorry is the bigger hit. A minor difference in peak doesn't hold as much weight as longevity with consistent sales/streaming, and multi-format radio, etc. Especially considering Formation got its peak largely because of the high profile nature of its release. It was short lived. It's also apparent Sorry is bigger when we look at how they are each fairing on the year end chart.
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NeRD
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Post by NeRD on Jul 3, 2016 9:39:53 GMT -5
Formation is the biggest hit of this ERA as of it was ( spent a single week) in the top 1o of the Hot 100 . Sorry is somewhat hit even though it stalled at #11. Still managed to do well on Urban and got some spins on Pop. The album and the Tour are the big winners. I'd argue that Sorry is the bigger hit. A minor difference in peak doesn't hold as much weight as longevity with consistent sales/streaming, and multi-format radio, etc. Especially considering Formation got its peak largely because of the high profile nature of its release. It was short lived. It's also apparent Sorry is bigger when we look at how they are each fairing on the year end chart.But Formation had more impacT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2016 9:50:02 GMT -5
I'd argue that Sorry is the bigger hit. A minor difference in peak doesn't hold as much weight as longevity with consistent sales/streaming, and multi-format radio, etc. Especially considering Formation got its peak largely because of the high profile nature of its release. It was short lived. It's also apparent Sorry is bigger when we look at how they are each fairing on the year end chart.But Formation had more impacT. Well, I used the phrase "I would argue" for a reason, because I know there are those of us who subscribe to the notion that a song's short term impact trumps a song with longevity. I just personally don't agree. The key phrase here is "bigger/est hit". It's like saying "Give Me All Your Luvin'" is a bigger hit than "The Power of Good-bye" or even "Beautiful Stranger" because it had ONE week of higher impact (and a few residuals) due to being performed on the world's biggest stage. Sure it's arguable by technicality, but time will tell the whole story of the bigger hit. The word "impact" is often subjective, and can be short term or long term, among various other qualifiers. Certainly Formation was more impactful during a one week period so far if we quantify it with the number of Super Bowl viewers who watched the halftime show. But I can say very honestly that Formation had very little impact on me - I know very little of the lyrics, i saw it performed at the Super Bowl, never heard it on the radio, and watched the video once. So saying Formation is more impactful is an opinion and depends on who you talk to. Whereas - solely from a chart performance perspective - Sorry is fairing better overall... which will be evident the next time Billboard publishes a list of Beyonce's biggest hits.
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norbpeti
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Post by norbpeti on Jul 3, 2016 10:15:58 GMT -5
A peak is a peak and if U go to an artists wiki all you see is the numbers
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2016 10:17:05 GMT -5
A peak is a peak and if U go to an artists wiki all you see is the numbers You see "weeks on" numbers as well on the weekly charts and in the comprehensive Hot 100 history books. There's a reason for this. Billboard compiles their comparative yearly and all-time hit lists based on overall performance, not peaks. One week's impact and subsequent rank vs. overall performance. If we define a hit's impact solely based on its weekly peak position, we'd have one messed up all-time chart. Do you not agree?
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norbpeti
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Post by norbpeti on Jul 3, 2016 14:00:06 GMT -5
No i don't. Again. Go to an artists page on wiki. They have all the singles/albums peaks listed. Nobody cares how,many weeks Beyonce s singles spent inside the Top 1o. A top 10 hit is a top 10 hit. The Beatles has 34 Madonna has 38. Nobody ever slapped in thier face how long those hits were hits. A top 10 is showing up in the books as a top 10. If we would dig into chart performance for example Arianna Grande would look "bad" spending single weeks inside the Top 10 and free falling each time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2016 14:24:41 GMT -5
No i don't. Again. Go to an artists page on wiki. They have all the singles/albums peaks listed. Nobody cares how,many weeks Beyonce s singles spent inside the Top 1o. A top 10 hit is a top 10 hit. The Beatles has 34 Madonna has 38. Nobody ever slapped in thier face how long those hits were hits. A top 10 is showing up in the books as a top 10. If we would dig into chart performance for example Arianna Grande would look "bad" spending single weeks inside the Top 10 and free falling each time. I'm not arguing that a top 10 peak isn't a top 10 hit. It absolutely is, regardless of how long it lasted in the top 10. It's an accomplishment for any song to reach the top 10 and I'm not trying to take anything away from that AT ALL. But when comparing individual hits against one another and declaring which one is the "bigger hit" - which is what you were/are doing - there's more to it than a single week peak or being a top 10 hit or not. Billboard ranks songs individually based on overall performance when compiling their "biggest hits", year-end and all-time lists - not by peak positions. And I agree with the reasons why they do this. Peaks are sometimes mentioned, but they aren't the end all of how big a hit is overall. Of course they also have lists of accomplishments like who had the most top 10s, #1s, etc, but that's not what you were originally talking about and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about individual songs/hits and how they stack up against each other overall. You are saying that Formation is the bigger hit because it had a higher weekly peak position than Sorry. So in your world, hits are compared and ranked solely by what their highest weekly peak was, regardless of whether they lasted 1 or 52 weeks on the chart. Which - using that logic - means you believe Soko's "We Might Be Dead by Tomorrow" was a bigger overall hit than "Borderline" by Madonna, for example, because Soko had a higher weekly peak by one position, even though it only lasted one week on the chart and was never heard from again.To each their own. Cheers mate.
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Post by norbpeti on Jul 3, 2016 15:57:49 GMT -5
No i don't. Again. Go to an artists page on wiki. They have all the singles/albums peaks listed. Nobody cares how,many weeks Beyonce s singles spent inside the Top 1o. A top 10 hit is a top 10 hit. The Beatles has 34 Madonna has 38. Nobody ever slapped in thier face how long those hits were hits. A top 10 is showing up in the books as a top 10. If we would dig into chart performance for example Arianna Grande would look "bad" spending single weeks inside the Top 10 and free falling each time. I'm not arguing that a top 10 peak isn't a top 10 hit. It absolutely is, regardless of how long it lasted in the top 10. It's an accomplishment for any song to reach the top 10 and I'm not trying to take anything away from that AT ALL. But when comparing individual hits against one another and declaring which one is the "bigger hit" - which is what you were/are doing - there's more to it than a single week peak or being a top 10 hit or not. Billboard ranks songs individually based on overall performance when compiling their "biggest hits", year-end and all-time lists - not by peak positions. And I agree with the reasons why they do this. Peaks are sometimes mentioned, but they aren't the end all of how big a hit is overall. Of course they also have lists of accomplishments like who had the most top 10s, #1s, etc, but that's not what you were originally talking about and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about individual songs/hits and how they stack up against each other overall. You are saying that Formation is the bigger hit because it had a higher weekly peak position than Sorry. So in your world, hits are compared and ranked solely by what their highest weekly peak was, regardless of whether they lasted 1 or 52 weeks on the chart. Which - using that logic - means you believe Soko's "We Might Be Dead by Tomorrow" was a bigger overall hit than "Borderline" by Madonna, for example, because Soko had a higher weekly peak by one position, even though it only lasted one week on the chart and was never heard from again.To each their own. Cheers mate. Yes Soko's hit was a bigger hit and borderline was remembered as Madonna's first Top Ten Hit LOL ~ Everything is depending on the point of view haha. Formation is the song what people know from this Era. I'm talking about outside B's fan base. ( casual listeners) She named the Tour after it for a Reason. The label kinda knew it.
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divasummer
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Post by divasummer on Jul 3, 2016 19:30:55 GMT -5
But Formation had more impacT. Well, I used the phrase "I would argue" for a reason, because I know there are those of us who subscribe to the notion that a song's short term impact trumps a song with longevity. I just personally don't agree. The key phrase here is "bigger/est hit". It's like saying "Give Me All Your Luvin'" is a bigger hit than "The Power of Good-bye" or even "Beautiful Stranger" because it had ONE week of higher impact (and a few residuals) due to being performed on the world's biggest stage. Sure it's arguable by technicality, but time will tell the whole story of the bigger hit. The word "impact" is often subjective, and can be short term or long term, among various other qualifiers. Certainly Formation was more impactful during a one week period so far if we quantify it with the number of Super Bowl viewers who watched the halftime show. But I can say very honestly that Formation had very little impact on me - I know very little of the lyrics, i saw it performed at the Super Bowl, never heard it on the radio, and watched the video once. So saying Formation is more impactful is an opinion and depends on who you talk to. Whereas - solely from a chart performance perspective - Sorry is fairing better overall... which will be evident the next time Billboard publishes a list of Beyonce's biggest hits. I get the point your making but I think "Formation" was bigger than you think. I know you read the stats etc and know it did well at Urban and Rythmic formats plus it was given away as a free download. Then when the cd did come out it sold the best for a bit. On top of that it was referenced in the media almost as much as "Sorry"'s "becky" line.
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NeRD
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Post by NeRD on Jul 3, 2016 20:46:36 GMT -5
Formation was big even outside the SB performance. It was huge in the Urban community and is one of the biggest and most recognized songs of the year.
Bottom line stats aren't everything...look at Run The World. Arguably the the biggest flop of Beyonce's career on paper, but also arguably her most recognizable song this decade, and she'll likely be performing that song while leaving some of her biggest hits on paper in the dust. See Telephone or Deja Vu.
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Post by emerald on Jul 3, 2016 21:43:36 GMT -5
Meh, she has Urban and possibly Rhythmic to rely on if Pop eventually abandons her.
I mean, Pop radio has been playing her for over 13 years, (18 if you count Destiny's Child.) The fact that she's still getting Pop airplay from a song like this is a good sign of her star power.
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Post by nick64 on Jul 4, 2016 2:59:27 GMT -5
Oi this "higher peak = bigger hit" argument again...
Wikipedia may only list peaks, but Wikipedia also isn't the main source for determining what a hit is lol. Not to mention that Wikipedia also lists certifications, which can easily overshadow a peak.
Looking at peaks, yes, "Formation" would appear to be a bigger hit than "Sorry". It gets to call itself a Top 10, something "Sorry" can't. But if peaks determined what the biggest hits were, the year-end charts would be a number-ordered list of song peaks. But they're not because a peak is the most short sited measure of success imaginable. A peak is literally only the highest its placed in relation to other songs at the time. In fact, many #2 songs have earned more points in a week than some #1s in other weeks. It's just a ranking of songs over 7 days. It really only takes a little bit of thought to realize there's more to success than that...
Now I also don't think chart points are a foolproof method in determining success either, but if you want hard startistics, that's the best way to go.
That said, "Sorry" and "Formation" can not be compared statistically. The latter was a free download only available on Tidal during the majority of its exposure as a single. That's why it debuted so well on the Hot 100. People that didn't feel like subscribing to Tidal had been waiting over two months to buy it. "Sorry" is getting more chart points, but it's also had a more traditional single run (as well as a pop radio release that "Formation" never received).
I'd argue "Formation" left a bigger cultural impact, but that's not to understate the impact "Sorry" has, and both have certainly been big hits for Bey.
ETA: And while I'm at it, that whole "A song is a hit once it reaches Top 40" thing is ridiculous too. Nothing will ever convince me that the Soko song (which is so irrelevant I can't even remember what it's called) can call itself a hit, while Disturbed's "The Sound Of Silence" can not.
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Post by shayonce on Jul 4, 2016 4:38:20 GMT -5
yeah.. you can't compare chart run of free buzz single and traditional released single. formation was free(with no sign up) and its video was unlisted(no point to billboard). it wasn't even promoted as official single. If it was released like sorry it could've been #1(or top3) peak and multiple wks at top 10 and much bigger sales.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 4, 2016 7:23:37 GMT -5
Pop: 35 32 BEYONCE Sorry 1694 1467 +227 8.386
+38 Spins +19 Bullet +0.063 AI
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norbpeti
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Post by norbpeti on Jul 4, 2016 8:13:13 GMT -5
Argument here and argument there Formation is her ( only) Top 10 single for 2016. Before that her last was from 2013 right? The duet with her hubbyyyy .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 12:13:05 GMT -5
It's just funny to me how what starts as a simple and very specific point/counterpoint turns into something completely different.
When someone says Song A is a bigger hit than Song B strictly based on Hot 100 peak, and I counter it with but what about Song B's Hot 100 longevity and overall chart points? That's pretty specific, cut, and dried. It was never intended to be an argument about perception by fans or non fans and/or cultural impact, free or not free, promoted or not promoted, available or not available. The notion of impact and/or public perception was inserted by someone else, which then superseded the original point/counterpoint. Norbpeti's opinion is in direct conflict with the way "hits" are stacked against each other by Billboard and other outlets who subscribe to their methodology and comprehensive/retrospective "all-time" and "year-end" charts. I'm not saying Billboard positions and/or Hot 100 performance are right or wrong, necessarily, or that we all have to follow the or accept them as some kind of scientific fact. I'm not naive. I'm just saying that in the context of Hot 100 success, which is what was being used as the gauge by Norbpeti, there's more to it than peak position. Sometimes Hot 100 positions can be misleading, especially when we are comparing two songs head to head. Sometimes songs with higher peaks are short lived and/or forgotten while much lower peaking songs have longer chart lives and live on forever in the cultural zeitgeist. I understand that what is on paper (or in this case, Wikipedia) isn't everything, which is entirely my original counterpoint. "Hit" in this case was defined very specifically, and I was countering the simplicity of using only the peak position when comparing overall success on the Hot 100.
In terms of "hits" and their performance on the Hot 100, Sorry has found more success overall. Regardless of the reasons (availability, etc), regardless of one weekly peak position, regardless of the how we feel about it personally, regardless of which song will go down as more impactful or memorable in our own opinions, or even the opinions of large amounts of people. This isn't to say that I don't recognize that Formation has very possibly made more of an impact on society so far. That's just not what I was arguing, as that is something that is difficult/impossible to prove or quantify and doesn't really interest me.
This isn't really even about Sorry or Formation, actually, as far as my original counterpoint was concerned. It is about declaring the more successful of any two songs on the Hot 100 using only peak position. I was disagreeing with Norbpeti's stance that a song's Hot 100 peak position is the ultimate and only determining factor of its success on the Hot 100 when compared to another song. The other song in this case being Sorry, which has acquired more chart points and will technically be the "bigger hit" of the two in the "all-time" books, despite having a slightly lower peak position and different set of circumstances. But we all want to insert our 2 cents on the reasons why Formation is or shoulda/woulda/coulda been bigger, or how they aren't comparable, rather than acknowledge our stance on the original point/counterpoint. While we may each feel different ways about these or any songs and which should have had the higher peak based on how popular/impactful we think they were, this was never about any of that. It was just about the overall success of hits in the specific context of the Hot 100 - because that is what was being referenced by Norbpeti. Had he originally said, "Formation so far has made the most cultural impact this era" I wouldn't have introduced my counterpoint. At least not yet. But he said "bigger hit" and qualified it specifically and solely with its peak position on the Hot 100, not its impact on culture or its set of circumstances.
All of that said - out of genuine curiosity - is there anyone here who agrees with Norbpeti's idea that the peak position shown in Wikipedia is the only factor when comparing ANY two songs to determine which was ultimately the bigger hit on the Hot 100?
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Post by Au$tin on Jul 4, 2016 12:26:41 GMT -5
Comparing any of the chart stats of any track from the album against Formation is useless. Formation was literally only available on Tidal and that's it. You even had to have the link to the video to view it on YouTube because it wouldn't pull up in a search. It wasn't until the album release that Formation hit iTunes and could be found easily on YouTube. And that was LONG after it was initially released, was performed on the halftime show, and had the controversy. I'm still a firm believer it would be a multi week number one if it had been fully available from the beginning. I mean, even months after really peaking in popularity, it was still able to hit number one on iTunes after the album release.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 4, 2016 12:32:38 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2016 14:17:37 GMT -5
If peaks determined what the biggest hits were, the year-end charts would be a number-ordered list of song peaks. But they're not because a peak is the most short sited measure of success imaginable. A peak is literally only the highest its placed in relation to other songs at the time. In fact, many #2 songs have earned more points in a week than some #1s in other weeks. It's just a ranking of songs over 7 days. It really only takes a little bit of thought to realize there's more to success than that... This. I wish I had just said this and left it at that, rather than unfortunately implying that this was specifically about Formation vs. Sorry. For the love of gawd. Anyway, thanks for indirectly reassuring me that I'm not in the f*cking twilight zone.
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Jul 4, 2016 14:25:15 GMT -5
'Sorry' is definitely the bigger of the two.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 5, 2016 8:36:58 GMT -5
Pop: 35 31 BEYONCE Sorry 1708 1501 +207 8.337
+14 Spins -20 Bullet -0.049 AI
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 6, 2016 6:22:42 GMT -5
Pop: 35 32 BEYONCE Sorry 1727 1526 +201 8.117
+19 Spins -6 Bullet -0.220 AI
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Post by #LisaRinna on Jul 11, 2016 6:51:11 GMT -5
Pop: 32 32 BEYONCE Sorry 1763 1694 +69 7.807
+21 Spins -17 Bullet +0.082 AI
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skizzo
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Post by skizzo on Jul 15, 2016 19:58:02 GMT -5
Is this done?
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Mr. Thonk Eyes
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Post by Mr. Thonk Eyes on Jul 15, 2016 19:59:41 GMT -5
Lost its bullet today, so I would say it is done.
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NeRD
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Post by NeRD on Jul 15, 2016 20:19:29 GMT -5
She tried.
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