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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 5, 2006 11:18:52 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what you people think about selling out in music. And I'm alittle confused. I once heard someone say that as soon as you sign a record contract, you've sold out. And when you think about it, that's true. You're selling your music to the higher-ups in the industry so then your art (if you considered it that before) becomes a way for you to make money. Now I'm fine with that because really, you need to make money to survive in today's world, unfortunately. And some people kind of have the change their art to actually make money while others are lucky to be able to sell their stuff while keeping to their original sound.
However, looking past the initially selling out that every artist does if you look at it that way, I've been seeing the words "sold out" or "selling out" a lot in the last little while and was wondering what people really consider to be selling out.
When did Jewel sell out? Did she even sell out? If people think she sold out during '0304', I argue that she sold out when she allowed 'You Were Meant To Be' to be remixed for radio, thus allowing her art of music to be made more commercial sounding. Why is '0304' picked on so much? So she made a more poppy record with more production work and less guitar, but was pop music even "in" in that form in 2003? I've come to learn in recent times that production work can be considered as much of an art as playing an instrument. Some artists based their careers on production and in-studio work with manipulating sounds. Frou Frou or Zero 7, I suppose.
And Nelly Furtado. I can understand why people accuse her of selling out but she's had connections with Timbaland and the hip-hop scene since her debut album. Why are people accusing her now? I mean, the way I see it with her, people ignored her last CD pretty much so why should she continue to be ignored while doing the same thing over. If it was an artist who had a successful CD first, they wouldn't be expected to go in a different commercially unsuccessful direction with the huge possibility of failing, would they? I'm sure Nelly is making music for the fun of it and whatever else she happens to get from it but she's also doing it as a source of income and being a celebrity means getting somewhat of an income, even if it is ridiculously larger than us normal folk.
Any other examples?
Basically, I'm just arguing that the term "sold out" is thrown around too easily.
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Jul 5, 2006 11:42:46 GMT -5
To me, its when someone either pulls a Shakira or significantly alters their image AND music in order to sell. Shakira is a big yes. (at least for that one song) Nelly on a lesser basis-I know she made this cd only to sell. If her last cd had been a huge hit, songs like PG would not have existed (for her at least) But she did have connections to that music and all so its not like she completely and utterly changed herself. Realistically, every artist has probably sold out a bit just to be popular. Its just more glaringly obvious with some people (or more disappointing)
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 5, 2006 11:55:43 GMT -5
What if a song isn't successful? What if 'Hips Don't Lie' flopped? Would she still have been considered to have sold out?
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COW COW COW COW COW COW COW
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Post by COW COW COW COW COW COW COW on Jul 5, 2006 12:00:33 GMT -5
^Yes. Because the song was still rapped-up to be more successful, or a big hit. It would have still been expected to have been bigger than a normal Foreign Shakira song.
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Post by tico on Jul 5, 2006 12:13:26 GMT -5
0304 gets picked on because of "Intuition". Not only was the song not typical of a Jewel song, but the video was totally in left field from what she normally did. In my opinion, I think she made "Intuition" not as a way to be commercially viable, but to poke fun at the music industry and pop culture.
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Post by Luckie Starchild on Jul 5, 2006 12:24:17 GMT -5
Basically, I'm just arguing that the term "sold out" is thrown around too easily. I agree with you. Jewel was being ironic.
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Post by Luckie Starchild on Jul 5, 2006 12:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by Pink Champagne Ricochet on Jul 5, 2006 13:05:29 GMT -5
In Jewel's case, I do think it wasn't really selling out...if she had done it in 1999 or 2000, possibly, but 0304-type material wasn't selling when she released it. In that climate, an album more like her older material probably would have been more successful. Plus, she kept writing the same kinds of lyrics (some of which were issue focused) that she did before. Letting Shick use "Intuition" in their commercials AND them actually naming a razor after it is debatable. What if a song isn't successful? What if 'Hips Don't Lie' flopped? Would she still have been considered to have sold out? I also think it would have. She put out Oral Fixation 2, which was a bit different from the rest of her material (at least what she's known for) and that flopped (in the U.S.), so she went into the studio to record a more sterotypical "Latin sounding" song that would be a surefire hit. Whether or not it would be successful, it'd still be selling out IMO. I don't necessarily begrudge them that though.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Jul 5, 2006 13:39:18 GMT -5
Why do people say Nelly Furtado sold out? Why is changing musical direction considered selling out? Aren't "artists" supposed to grow and evolve with their music?
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Post by lollipopheaven on Jul 5, 2006 14:26:42 GMT -5
Jessica - sold out (never was any great to begin with) Ashlle - sold out (never was any great to beging with either) Jewel - sold out Nelly F - sold out Christina - She just keeps on doing the same as everyone else. I mean come on she went out when pop was in, she went in when rnb and hip hop was in, now she's going in with what is in and that's modern jazz just like Joss Stone, and Michael Buble. Justin - he just went with what was in at the time. JC went solo also but he made a great pop record that was different.
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Post by Trebizond on Jul 5, 2006 15:09:02 GMT -5
Thats, intresting and I would disagree with it, Maybe if Ani Difranco signed a major label deal, but many of the people with major label deals wanted to be popstars, so how can you sell-out or betray something you don't believe in to begin with? Anyone here think Britney, Jessica, Justin, went into music for the art?
Jewel is an intresting case, I reject the notion that 0304 was intended primarily as a satirical piece. I think Jewel was trying to stay relevant in the face of slipping, sales and airplay. I don't blame the girl for trying to stay on top of the game, but 0304 was not the way to do it. Whether or not she sold out depends on one's definition but she certainly would fit many peoples. Though I i'm not sure she ever claimed not to wanting to be a commercial artist, so it may go back to the can you betray what you don't believe. Liz Phair falls under this heading as well, her self-titled album was definitly an attemp at mainstream success but so was SpaceEgg before it, so she obviously wanted pop success for a while.
I have to agree, selling-out would be about intention, not neccesarily result.
Additionaly I'm not sure what the whole deal with Selling-out is. People change, thier wants, and styles do likewise. If you disagree with a musicians new direction don't buy the album. Wanting to be succesful is pretty understandable IMO. And Screaming sell-out doesn't solve anything no matter how disappointed you are.
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Post by How Do You Do? on Jul 5, 2006 22:04:17 GMT -5
What if a song isn't successful? What if 'Hips Don't Lie' flopped? Would she still have been considered to have sold out? I also think it would have. She put out Oral Fixation 2, which was a bit different from the rest of her material (at least what she's known for) and that flopped (in the U.S.), so she went into the studio to record a more sterotypical "Latin sounding" song that would be a surefire hit. Whether or not it would be successful, it'd still be selling out IMO. I don't necessarily begrudge them that though. Not that it really matters, but Shakira doesn't have a standard type of material - she's done everything from reggae, reggaeton, pop, teen pop, rock, latin, industrial, bossa nova and dance music. Shakira's been accused of selling out her entire career whether it's bleaching her hair blonde, shaking her hips, the Whenever, Wherever video, dating Antonio de la Rua, the La Tortura video, working with the Matrix, working with Wyclef, working with Alejandro, moving to Miami, working with the Estefans, etc. Personally, I don't believe that a pop artist can sellout. That's the beauty of being a pop artist, you don't have to conform to a genre's rules.
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Post by renaissance411 on Jul 5, 2006 22:31:54 GMT -5
"Intuition" was the most heartbreaking sellout. I love Jewel, and honestly, that song wasn't so bad, but it seemed to go against all she supposedly stood for.
I don't see anything wrong with what Jewel did, only that it seemed to go against what is Jewel.
I also think Pink has sold out to some degree. I do think she is still true to herself mostly, but there was definitely more motive behind "Stupid Girls" than a little sarcastic social commentary. Give me a break. She thought it would sell records. Give the public more credit, really.
As I said, I don't have a problem with females using their assets to help sell records-- just don't give me a bunch of bullshit about how you have creating some satirical social commentary. Whatever.
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Post by babyboylrtm on Jul 5, 2006 22:38:05 GMT -5
Shakira didn't sold out with Whenever, Wherever video, La Tortura video, working with whoever, moving to Miami etc and before I keep on, whoever think dating someone is "selling out" need some SERIOUS help.
I saw Laundry Service and that whole era as her attempt to make it to the english market. That wasn't selling out. Laundry Service was very shakira-ish just in english. Poem To A Horse and Que Me Quedes Tu are the best examples that it was a really Shakira type of record-- just a little bit commercial which she needed in order to make it into the american/english market.
Now, I do believe she sold out big time with Hips. If Hips would've been an original song, not a remake, and part of the original Oral Fixation I would have no problem with it, I think. But the fact that she just covered a song (when she had said "I'm not a jukebox") sampled another one just because she was desperate because Oral Fixation was bombing badly is the definition of a total sell out.
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Filthy Pop
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Post by Filthy Pop on Jul 5, 2006 23:32:10 GMT -5
I think Shakira did sell out on HDL, they new the album was flopping and needed a hit to re-release. It was a smart move though, I can't blame them for trying to save the album by doing so.
How's that? If she wanted another hit all she had to do was pick up another song that sounded similar to the Stripped era, Joss Stone and Michael Buble aren't that mainstream, they're known, but aren't getting back to back hits, I wouldn't call the jazz scene "in" at all right now. Christina's starting to open doors to it, and that's because she's already a popular artist, but she isn't doing much difference from them.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 6, 2006 12:00:26 GMT -5
So selling out is basically trying something new that happens to be the "in" thing now or results in getting a huge hit.
Did Outkast sell out with 'Hey Ya'/'The Way You Move'? Or Bubba Sparxxx with 'Ms. New Booty'.
I understand the Liz Phair one. Examples where an artist claims to hate everything that's super mainstream but then does an album that clearly is what you always went against.
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Post by tortuga on Jul 6, 2006 20:15:39 GMT -5
Santana - two collaborations with Michelle Branch? The first one was good but the second attemp was nothing more than generic fluff to get a hit.
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Post by babyboylrtm on Jul 6, 2006 20:20:10 GMT -5
^^^So true.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Jul 7, 2006 2:39:16 GMT -5
Here's a question, if and when did Celine Dion sell out?
Had 'Ching Ching' by Ms. Jade and Nelly Furtado been a big hit, would people have shouted "sold out" at Nelly then?
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Post by lollipopheaven on Jul 7, 2006 3:09:21 GMT -5
I think Shakira did sell out on HDL, they new the album was flopping and needed a hit to re-release. It was a smart move though, I can't blame them for trying to save the album by doing so. How's that? If she wanted another hit all she had to do was pick up another song that sounded similar to the Stripped era, Joss Stone and Michael Buble aren't that mainstream, they're known, but aren't getting back to back hits, I wouldn't call the jazz scene "in" at all right now. Christina's starting to open doors to it, and that's because she's already a popular artist, but she isn't doing much difference from them. Ah no. What doors has Christina opened? None actually. She's just doing what once again has been done already.
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Post by Trebizond on Jul 7, 2006 3:47:03 GMT -5
Here's a question, if and when did Celine Dion sell out?
Had 'Ching Ching' by Ms. Jade and Nelly Furtado been a big hit, would people have shouted "sold out" at Nelly then? I wouldn't say celine Dion ever did, her songs have always seemed to be of the same general kind throughout her career, or at least her english-speaking career, i don't know much bout her earliest french albums, but i have the impression they were mostly ballads to. The only thing that varied with her career was success level rather than a major stylistic change. and I wouldn't regard her singing in english as selling out, but rather a very rational attempt to expand her potential audience. Having never heard the Furtado/Jade song I have no input on that front.
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Post by spooky21 on Jul 7, 2006 11:49:18 GMT -5
The whole concept of people accusing artists of "selling out" is stupid. 99% of artists make music with the goal of "selling" it to consumers. Commercialism in its purest form.
If people are so concerned with artistry and not selling records, music should be distributed for "free" as they it would surely be the artist expressing themselves purely for non-commercial gain......like a Grafitti artist. Once you have an expectation of getting "paid" for your art, you have embraced the commercialism of it all.
A record company's first and foremost goal is to make money. Without revenue, they won't be able to operate. The good companies are the one's that try to maintain a balance between the two without making the almighty dollar the "endallbeall", but at the end of the day, it is the financial statements that dictate the business.
Are there degree's of commercialism? Yes, as there are certainly "proven" ways of formatting an art form to sell in higher quantities. Someone using a higher degree of commercialism does not equate to "selling out" as they all have been trying to "sell" the minute they signed a record contract.
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Post by iMoan on Jul 7, 2006 15:01:07 GMT -5
The whole concept of people accusing artists of "selling out" is stupid. 99% of artists make music with the goal of "selling" it to consumers. Commercialism in its purest form. If people are so concerned with artistry and not selling records, music should be distributed for "free" as they it would surely be the artist expressing themselves purely for non-commercial gain......like a Grafitti artist. Once you have an expectation of getting "paid" for your artist, you have embraced the commercialism of it all. A record company's first and foremost goal is to make money. Without revenue, they won't be able to operate. The good companies are the one's that try to maintain a balance between the two without making the almighty dollar the "endallbeall", but at the end of the day, it is the financial statements that dictate the business. Are there degree's of commercialism? Yes as there are certainly "proven" ways of formatting an art form to sell in higher quantities. Someone using a higher degree of commercialism does not equate to "selling out" as they all have been trying to "sell" the minute they signed a record contract. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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pubescentmonster
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Post by pubescentmonster on Jul 7, 2006 15:56:31 GMT -5
I think Shakira did sell out on HDL, they new the album was flopping and needed a hit to re-release. It was a smart move though, I can't blame them for trying to save the album by doing so. How's that? If she wanted another hit all she had to do was pick up another song that sounded similar to the Stripped era, Joss Stone and Michael Buble aren't that mainstream, they're known, but aren't getting back to back hits, I wouldn't call the jazz scene "in" at all right now. Christina's starting to open doors to it, and that's because she's already a popular artist, but she isn't doing much difference from them. Ah no. What doors has Christina opened? None actually. She's just doing what once again has been done already. yes because radio is being flooded w/20',30's,40's jazzy soulful songs like "Candyman" and "I Got Trouble" of course everyone is doing that. She is heading in a completely different direction then everyone else and if u hear CANDYMAN its unlike any song out there today and shes taking a HUGE risk by going that direction I wouldnt be suprised if people actually start copying and start going back in time doing the same thing she is now and cranking out CANDYMAN type songs and calling it their own
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Post by Sean on Jul 9, 2006 7:14:51 GMT -5
I don't even think Shakira sold out. Shakira has always done lots of different things with her music.
To the average joe... Hips Dont Lie is just a continuation on from Whenever, Wherever so it wasn't like she totally changed things up for that sole purpose.
I hate how people are so quick to jump on people!
Another example, Jewel - that's not selling out! It's called irony - didn't anybody see the Intuition video!?!?!
Also, perhaps you could say these artists are being more 'artistic' by doing different things rather than the same thing over and over and being 'true to thereselves'. What is art anyway?
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Post by babyboylrtm on Jul 9, 2006 9:00:52 GMT -5
Ah no. What doors has Christina opened? None actually. She's just doing what once again has been done already. yes because radio is being flooded w/20',30's,40's jazzy soulful songs like "Candyman" and "I Got Trouble" of course everyone is doing that. She is heading in a completely different direction then everyone else and if u hear CANDYMAN its unlike any song out there today and shes taking a HUGE risk by going that direction I wouldnt be suprised if people actually start copying and start going back in time doing the same thing she is now and cranking out CANDYMAN type songs and calling it their own Um, radio being flooded with what? Who's everyone? Those songs ain't singles yet and they aren't getting any type of airplay either as the last time I checked the pop chart.
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Post by ashley on Jul 9, 2006 12:05:19 GMT -5
I don't think Shakira sold out in the terms you guys are talking about - it's not like she changed her image or sound to get a hit - Hips Don't Lie is still a very "Shakira" song.
I see Hips Don't Lie just as a desperate move to rescue an album - and it worked.
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Post by KelownaGuy20 on Jul 12, 2006 23:29:37 GMT -5
I think that with Nelly Furtado, people are accusing her of selling out because of just how drastic a departure "Promiscuous" is from "Try," the last real single from 'Folklore.' I mean, really, it is just one song, but apparently that's enough to swing people.
The thing with Nelly is that she's been doing hip-hop for years, but they've always been on remixes, or Canadian releases that a majority of people never really hear. I mean, hell, Nelly did the "Get Ur Freak On" remix with Missy after her FIRST album. Working with CanCon artists like Jelleestone and Swollen Members didn't help her expand her worldwide "urban" sound.
I can see why people would call Nelly a sellout without knowing her past with the sound. I mean, if Celine Dion released "Promiscuous," then yeah, sellout, but with Nelly, I think a lot of her past work is being overlooked.
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Post by vinyl on Jul 13, 2006 9:45:31 GMT -5
In Jewel's case, I do think it wasn't really selling out...if she had done it in 1999 or 2000, possibly, but 0304-type material wasn't selling when she released it. In that climate, an album more like her older material probably would have been more successful. Plus, she kept writing the same kinds of lyrics (some of which were issue focused) that she did before. Letting Shick use "Intuition" in their commercials AND them actually naming a razor after it is debatable. The razor thing is because she didn't have the full rights to this song at that point. She didn't want that. I don't think Nelly did it to be succesful. I mean, maybe partly, but she changes styles with every record, and this album is so far from your typical RnB album. The production is different and very, very good.
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Post by BlahBlahBlah on Jul 13, 2006 13:25:15 GMT -5
Did Outkast sell out with 'Hey Ya'/'The Way You Move'? Or Bubba Sparxxx with 'Ms. New Booty'. No, no, and yes.
"Hey Ya!" was not selling out because it didn't sound like any other songs that were out at the time, and "The Way You Move" sounded like any other OutKast song.
"Ms. New Booty", yes... he worked with Timbaland for songs with lyrical substance, then all of a sudden starts releasing club tracks with ColliPark (and it's more than one song because "Heat It Up" is exactly like that too) that are identical to the songs that Ying Yang Twins, David Banner, etc came out with already.
I don't think Nelly Furtado is selling out since she worked with Timbaland before as some of you already pointed out.
I can't fathom how anyone can say Jewel was trying to be satirical. Okay, maybe if she had only released "Intuition" and its video, then she was trying to be ironic. But just look at the press pictures she had for that era, she was totally trying to change her image into a sexy popstar's, which failed miserably because she seriously needs to fix her teeth before that can happen.
What about LeAnn Rimes? Didn't she sell out too when she was trying to sex it up for a while?
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