John77
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Post by John77 on Oct 16, 2006 0:27:09 GMT -5
I can't believe their hasn't been a single post claiming that actual TALENT and ORIGINALITY have something to do with it. You know, just maybe?! I will present my arguement with two examples: Here are two artists chart runs on the Hot 100: No Talent and Orginality (and the help of the best writers, producers, and many big names being featured on their tracks) Pussy Cat Dolls: "Don't Cha": #2 "Stickwitu" #5 "Beep" #13 "Buttons"#5 "I Don't Need a Man" International "Wait a Minute" Pending US Sales: 2 Million Wordwide Sales: 5 million Talent and Originality Evanescence (Even if you don't like them don't deny it) "Bring Me to Life: #6 "Going Under": Didn't chart My Immortal: #5 Everybody's Fool: Didn't Chart US Sales: 6.5 Million Worldwide Sales: 14.5 Million Note: When 'Going Under' didn't even chart on the Hot 100 "Fallen NEVER left the top 20 of the Billboard 200 and was in the top 10 nearly every week while the single completely flopped on pop. I rest my case. Actually, this illustration shows the problems with the Hot 100 chart more than making your point unfortunately... it also lends more creedence to my argument that album sales should have an influence on the current single's status on that chart. FYI, PCD has shipped a little over 2.5 million copies here in the U.S so far... with actual sales at 2,214,402.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Oct 16, 2006 0:29:08 GMT -5
First of all, talent and originality is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think Nicole Scherzinger's powerful voice blows Amy Lee's ghostly voice out of the water. Second, even if we were to say that some people are talented and not, people dont buy albums based on that. They buy based on what they like. No one is going to say, "Hey, I love that new Cassie song, but she is untalented, I refuse to buy it!" or "That Mariah song sucks ass, but she is talented, therefore I'm buying it" Third, thats the lamest analogy I've ever seen. (And trust me, Ive seen a lot of lame ones this week ;)) You know the sales market from then and now are totally different. Not to mention the bizarre notion of comparing two totally different artists with very different markets LOL. If you want to compare them, how about we compare Evanescence's current album to the PCD album? ;) The bigger problem is that you're implying that more sales=more talent. There will be no consensus on that, unless you can admit that you think Britney Spears is more talented than Evanesce nce since she has sold more :) Well put, Pulse.
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Post by fatalthirteen on Oct 16, 2006 3:07:13 GMT -5
First of all, talent and originality is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think Nicole Scherzinger's powerful voice blows Amy Lee's ghostly voice out of the water. Second, even if we were to say that some people are talented and not, people dont buy albums based on that. They buy based on what they like. No one is going to say, "Hey, I love that new Cassie song, but she is untalented, I refuse to buy it!" or "That Mariah song sucks ass, but she is talented, therefore I'm buying it" Third, thats the lamest analogy I've ever seen. (And trust me, Ive seen a lot of lame ones this week ;)) You know the sales market from then and now are totally different. Not to mention the bizarre notion of comparing two totally different artists with very different markets LOL. If you want to compare them, how about we compare Evanescence's current album to the PCD album? ;) The bigger problem is that you're implying that more sales=more talent. There will be no consensus on that, unless you can admit that you think Britney Spears is more talented than Evanescence since she has sold more :) Ok, first of all, trying to claim PCD are either talented or original is a complete waste of time. Second, people DO buy albums on the basis of talent. When people hear Cassie's "Me and U" and realize she sings a total of *gasp* 3 WHOLE NOTES on that song, they are (hopefully) completely underwhelmed. When the songs sounds manufactured, some people actually use past experience to realize that manufactured artists likely have 2-3 catchy songs MAX on their album with the rest being filler. Why would you buy the album then? Third, the whole "talent is in the eye of the beholder" argument only works for the grey area. There are people who are clearly untalented and those who are clearly talented (whether you are a fan or not). To give a very generous definition, I'm going to go ahead and say that for today's mainstream music, any group or solo act who got where they were on the basis of music which they actually created on their own is at least somewhat talented. If they are VERY vocally talented where it is clear that they should be singing professionally then that is ok to (i.e. Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson, Beyonce,). I say this because in my high school, there were about 20 females in the choir that have as good a vocal ability as most of these solo female acts. Do all of them deserve record deals then? You can say you like Nicole's voice more than Amy Lee's if you like as it is not like she is clearly untalented (i.e. Paris Hilton, Cassie, J. Lo) in which case I would find you to be quite deaf. Lastly, their is a definate correlation with sales and talent when comparing mainstream artists that write their own music; people who sell best have often (although not always) been trendsetters and even innovators in the music industry. This, of course, fails for the 'artist's which were spit out of a gumball machine so to speak because in this case it is whoever was chosen by their record company to be given the better writers and producers (which answers your Britney spears claim). Hope that answers your questions ;) :)
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 14:12:36 GMT -5
Ok, first of all, trying to claim PCD are either talented or original is a complete waste of time. Not really. A similar case could be made for Evanescence (and you know why ;)) Second, people DO buy albums on the basis of talent. When people hear Cassie's "Me and U" and realize she sings a total of *gasp* 3 WHOLE NOTES on that song, they are (hopefully) completely underwhelmed. Is that why are Britney Spears and Hilary Duff are big sellers? ;) When the songs sounds manufactured, some people actually use past experience to realize that manufactured artists likely have 2-3 catchy songs MAX on their album with the rest being filler. Why would you buy the album then? What type of generalization is that? "Manufactured" artists are no different from "non manufactured" artists. Some "manufactured" artists have strong albums, some "non-manufactured" artists have albums with "2-3 catchy songs MAX". Some are the other way around. Third, the whole "talent is in the eye of the beholder" argument only works for the grey area. There are people who are clearly untalented and those who are clearly talented (whether you are a fan or not). If it only works for the grey area, then why are we talking about Evanescence :) To give a very generous definition, I'm going to go ahead and say that for today's mainstream music, any group or solo act who got where they were on the basis of music which they actually created on their own is at least somewhat talented. Thats a bad definition and you know it. So if I became famous by writing crap songs I'm still talented in your definition? If they are VERY vocally talented where it is clear that they should be singing professionally then that is ok to (i.e. Christina Aguilera, Kelly Clarkson, Beyonce,). I say this because in my high school, there were about 20 females in the choir that have as good a vocal ability as most of these solo female acts. Do all of them deserve record deals then? If we're going by that definition, then I guess the PCD are talented in your eyes ;). You know Nicole's vocals are in line with Kelly and Beyonce Do all those girls deserve record deals? If their voices are good as you claim, then maybe they deserve it. But if they will get them or not is a different story. You can say you like Nicole's voice more than Amy Lee's if you like as it is not like she is clearly untalented (i.e. Paris Hilton, Cassie, J. Lo) in which case I would find you to be quite deaf. Again, this is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone has to have a Mariah Carey voice to be a singer. Lastly, their is a definite correlation with sales and talent when comparing mainstream artists that write their own music; people who sell best have often (although not always) been trendsetters and even innovators in the music industry. There is no such correlation. Correlations are based on surveys and stats and the like. Do you have any of those to back that statement up? ;) And that last statement is so wishy washy and LAME! LMAO People who sell well best are often trendsetters, although not always? Then in that case.....People who sell best are often not trendsetters, although not always. If you're going to say something, say it. Don't give us lame "Well, the glass is 1/2 full, but also 1/2 empty" arguments. This, of course, fails for the 'artist's which were spit out of a gumball machine so to speak because in this case it is whoever was chosen by their record company to be given the better writers and producers (which answers your Britney spears claim). Holy contradiction! Didn't you just say people avoided these records? ;) So when Cassie sells bad, people are scared of her vocals. When Britney sells well, she is from a bubblegum machine. Isn't Cassie supposed to be from the same machine? How come Britney's vocals don't scare people? How come you can't come up with any arguments that don't contradict earlier statements? LMAO!
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Waveyโจ๏ธ
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Post by Waveyโจ๏ธ on Oct 16, 2006 14:24:00 GMT -5
Imo, i think Cassie vocals can ride a beat.Diddy's her reason why her sales are low.She would have been Gold by now
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Post by Pink Champagne Ricochet on Oct 16, 2006 14:49:17 GMT -5
Danity Kane have managed to sell despite being connected to Diddy, so it's not that. Cassie's album just isn't strong enough, same as Paris. Britney had some damn catchy songs. Although I actually like "Long Way 2 Go" and that's flopping hard. I think it's similar to Ashlee Simpson, where they haven't been able to get past live performance embarassments. Ashlee at least managed to go platinum before her SNL scandal, too bad Cassie's album hadn't dropped before she went on BET and TRL and laid those eggs.
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 14:59:20 GMT -5
Yeah, and even Ashlee's 2nd album (after the scandal) went platinum too, right?
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Post by Waveyโจ๏ธ on Oct 16, 2006 15:59:40 GMT -5
Danity Kane have managed to sell despite being connected to Diddy, so it's not that. Cassie's album just isn't strong enough, same as Paris. Britney had some damn catchy songs. Although I actually like "Long Way 2 Go" and that's flopping hard. I think it's similar to Ashlee Simpson, where they haven't been able to get past live performance embarassments. Ashlee at least managed to go platinum before her SNL scandal, too bad Cassie's album hadn't dropped before she went on BET and TRL and laid those eggs. Long Way To Go isn't floppin,last time it was: BUBBLING UNDER 1 10 Love You, Jack Ingram 2 5 She Don't, LeToya 3 -- When Your Heart Stops Beating, (+44) 4 -- Love Me Or Hate Me (F**k You!!!!), Lady Sovereign 5 12 Some People Change, Montgomery Gentry 6 6 Long Way 2 Go, Cassie
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Post by Waveyโจ๏ธ on Oct 16, 2006 16:01:21 GMT -5
^ this week it should be out of the Bubbling Under.
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 16:04:18 GMT -5
Long Way 2 Go was sent to radio and video a long time ago. It should have been on the Hot 100 by now. It hasnt charted on Hot 100 Airplay or Hot Digital Songs. Its not on the iTunes 100. It didnt chart on pop radio or urban radio and it charted on rhythmic, but only went to #29 and is falling without a bullet.
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Post by Live Your Life on Oct 16, 2006 16:10:23 GMT -5
Yeah, "Long Way 2 Go" is a flop.
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Post by fatalthirteen on Oct 16, 2006 16:31:44 GMT -5
Pulse, I'm not going to even try to argue with that steaming pile of bulls**t you call an intelligent reply. The one thing I'm going to say is, Britney was the first of a slew of solo female pop acts which made her album different from what was out at the time. All these crap artists you are defending are riding on the poppy hip hop trend that has dominated radio since 2001-2002. And why don't you look at a lists of best-selling artists of all time or check some figures for album sales for Artists who won the grammy for 'Album of the Year'...that should relieve your craving for statistics buddy. This is over
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 17:21:14 GMT -5
Translation = Faltalthirteen knows he's wrong and he can't come up with a good argument cause he knows he lost the argument. It's okay, Fatalthirteen. I know how big your ego is. :) Sometimes, you say unitellligent things that you know you can't back up :)
The bigger problem is that you're letting your biased views dictate objective facts. I didnt say I loved that sort of music. But when its successful, Im not going to be like you and pretend it didnt happen
AOTY? That's a whole different topic, champ, and unrelated to sales.
I've seen the list of best selling albums and among them are Dance/Pop albums from the BSB, Britney Spears, Nysnc, etc. Oh yeah, and theres this Dance/Pop album called Thriller. Which is one of the most successful (if not the most) albums of all time. Have you heard about it? ;) LOL
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 16, 2006 18:04:55 GMT -5
I personally find it hilarious when people argue over singers like Britney Spears and JoJo and whathaveyou being "innovative" and "original". If you people actually cared about originality, you'd look for something original and not strive to find some original quality or distinct feature in a Britney song in a desperate attempt to find something not done before. Britney's music is made to be a product and make money first and foremost. That's what she was signed to do for her people and her label. Any "originality" and "art" that might lie underneath comes at a distant second.
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 18:22:21 GMT -5
Was that directed at me? If it was, I didn't say Britney was the first of her kind. My point was that there isnt a strong relationship between originality and sales. There are tons of original artists out there, that probably can't even get record deals. If youre talking about something else, then nevermind
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Oct 16, 2006 18:56:18 GMT -5
Nope, it wasn't directed at you. lol. Did you even use Britney in your example?
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Post by fatalthirteen on Oct 16, 2006 19:51:39 GMT -5
Nope, it wasn't directed at you. lol. Did you even use Britney in your example? Then I suppose that was directed at me...funny how you didn't read my earlier posts and realize your argueing the same point as me put differently. The Britney example was a response to a mildly retarded claim made by good ol' Pulse. I meant the reason why Britney's self-titled sold well was because she was the first of her kind in the teen-pop era while many artists today are like 8th or 9th incarnations of the same artist. That's the extent of 'originality' (for lack of a better word) in her music.
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Post by fatalthirteen on Oct 16, 2006 20:29:13 GMT -5
Translation = Faltalthirteen knows he's wrong and he can't come up with a good argument cause he knows he lost the argument. It's okay, Fatalthirteen. I know how big your ego is. :) Sometimes, you say unitellligent things that you know you can't back up :) The bigger problem is that you're letting your biased views dictate objective facts. I didnt say I loved that sort of music. But when its successful, Im not going to be like you and pretend it didnt happen AOTY? That's a whole different topic, champ, and unrelated to sales. I've seen the list of best selling albums and among them are Dance/Pop albums from the BSB, Britney Spears, Nysnc, etc. Oh yeah, and theres this Dance/Pop album called Thriller. Which is one of the most successful (if not the most) albums of all time. Have you heard about it? ;) LOL Translation = Pulse is using the fact that not everyone has the time to write incredibly long responses to idiots who would not understand them or at least admit to their incompetence anyway. Quick points: - Because you seem to need it, the definition of 'correlation' is the degree to which one variable (talent) is associated with and can be predicted from another. Only exact correlations are perfect linear relationships, otherwise, there are exceptions - The teen pop era was one BIG exception to that correlation. However you've used that arguement for about the the third time now so there's no getting through to you that people who need others to define everything that they are from music to image are not so talented...but alas, you are hopeless to understand this. -Thriller was an awesome album made by extremely talented artist and one of the best performers of all time. Why you pulled that one out of your ass is beyond me. - "letting your biased views dictate objective facts"-- which one of those facts are you talking about now bud? Nicole Shroekidinger's voice being as incredible as it is perhaps? Riiiiiiight, REAL objective facts being stated... -Lastly, I'll let you have the last word on this, in fact, why don't you subject this board to a whole pages' worth of recycled and moronic comments where you display your ignorance of the meanings of words such as 'objective' and 'correlation'. Now this arguement is really over.
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Pulse
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Post by Pulse on Oct 16, 2006 21:45:11 GMT -5
So, not everyone has a time to respond to so called idiots with long posts...yet some idiot decided to write that book above^ ;)
I know what correlation is pal. Unless you have a survey of every "manufactured" album and its sales, verses every "non manufactured" one, sit your ass down and dont makes claims like that.
You better believe Im going to bring up the teen era. Oh I'm sorry, suddenly, it's "the exception". LMAO. If you know anything about the history of music, you would know there have been other "teen" eras too. And you would know how MJ started out too.
Notice I didnt claim Nicole's voice as being good as a fact. That is my opinion. Yet, you've claimed your other bizarre opinions as facts (People are usually turned away by weak vocalists and dont buy their albums like Cassie, There are always only three good songs on those type of albums, anyone who writes, even crap, is semi talented, etc) LMAO
The only ignorant person here is the one that NO ONE else has remotely agreed with. You were shocked when no one brought up talent and originality as factors for sales, and even after your insane rant, STILL no one agrees, because that claim is moronic as the person who thought out that crazy theory. :)
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GiggaWho
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Post by GiggaWho on Oct 16, 2006 21:47:29 GMT -5
Guys, cut out the personal stuff, please.
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juhn
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Post by juhn on Oct 17, 2006 11:34:58 GMT -5
Pulse does seem to have a habit of getting into long fights doesn't she.. Take a midol.
OK I'll agree with fatalthirteen. Talent and originality are major factors. Look at Norah Jones, Bob Dylan, Alicia Keys etc.
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Post by fatalthirteen on Oct 17, 2006 13:08:03 GMT -5
Pulse does seem to have a habit of getting into long fights doesn't she.. Take a midol. OK I'll agree with fatalthirteen. Talent and originality are major factors. Look at Norah Jones, Bob Dylan, Alicia Keys etc. "Take a midol"-LMAO...and good examples Didn't even know pulse was a female.
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GiggaWho
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Post by GiggaWho on Oct 17, 2006 13:56:54 GMT -5
Cut out the personal stuff means cut out the personal stuff, not follow my post with another swipe at a poster. Seriously, people, it's not rocket science.
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Post by Waveyโจ๏ธ on Oct 17, 2006 19:39:01 GMT -5
Cassie just needs promo,then maybe she'll be Gold
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Longshot
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Post by Longshot on Oct 18, 2006 9:20:17 GMT -5
To answer the thread, it's varies by artists and genre. Someone like Usher thrives off having huge singles and commercial attention to draw in the casual music listener. Others like Norah Jones sell through word of mouth and dedicated music consumers
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Post by Waveyโจ๏ธ on Oct 22, 2006 21:44:23 GMT -5
Yeah,Im still on how he sold that much that year ???
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John77
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Post by John77 on Oct 23, 2006 0:39:20 GMT -5
My point was that there isnt a strong relationship between originality and sales. This is very true... those that have been successful, usually have followed the tried and true formula of writing radio friendly songs to sell lots of CD's... those that are different and succeed - Norah Jones seems to always be the first come to mind - are few and far between.
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John77
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Post by John77 on Oct 23, 2006 1:32:39 GMT -5
Pulse does seem to have a habit of getting into long fights doesn't she.. Take a midol. Must we seek out confrontations with everyone we don't agree with? This is a MUSIC board, not a pot shot board. Giggawho is a mod, in case you didn't know. So please listen to her when she's talking to you.
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grimface
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Post by grimface on Dec 3, 2006 3:04:08 GMT -5
i think it still the marketing aspect that drives sales. if you know how to market your album to the right people, then your going to sell.
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Post by music on Dec 9, 2006 20:23:41 GMT -5
People buy what is played over and over on the radio and/or what is shoved down their throats on the music TV channels.
If you don't get lot of radio airplay and/or TV attention you better hope you are an already-established artist with a built-in fanbase that's put out a GOOD album if you want sales.
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