Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 22:25:43 GMT -5
If I was to name one, I wouldn't consider Perry's Last Friday Night a single. To me it's just an album track that charted. Why is that not a single? If this were pre-2003, it would meet the definition of a single by being available as a stand alone purchase. Why would it not be a single now, since it is available as a stand-alone purchase?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 22:30:47 GMT -5
I would say there is a difference between SINGLES and HITS each track is available for individual purchase but not all will be hits So, even though they won't all be hits, would you say Katy Perry has released 14 singles off her new album? Album-tracks to me are tracks from an album that you can't get as a single
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 22:45:27 GMT -5
OK so I have a question:
What is a "single"?
And could a non-single, if it sells enough copies on itunes, in theory, hit #1 on the Hot 100?
If so, then why is that not a single?
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 23, 2010 23:06:05 GMT -5
Billboard addressed this years ago by changing the Hot 100 from being a "singles" chart to a "songs" chart. (See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard_Hot_100#Album_cuts ) I think there is a pretty clear hierarchy. Track = individual version of a song Song = that song in any form Single = a song that is promoted, often as a bundle with remixes or B-sides (usually in support of an album or soundtrack) That is pretty much how Billboard defines things. Keep in mind there are lots of relics in terms of terminology, such as "B-sides," which has come to mean a non-album track associated with an album era even though it is no longer literally the "B-side" of vinyl record (or cassette).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 23:14:28 GMT -5
So I could buy a "track" for $1.29 and 400,000 of my friends could buy the same "track" from say Glee and it hits #1 based solely on sales. That is not a single?
If that scenario happened in 1998, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Since in 1998, the only single tracks available were those that were promoted to radio.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2010 23:31:20 GMT -5
btw - the "songs chart" but was to address songs promoted to radio but not available for individual purchase
Songs available for individual purchase were always considered singles (pre-itunes anyway)
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abc
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Post by abc on Sept 24, 2010 0:13:35 GMT -5
1.just the way you are 2.like a g6 3.empire state of mine (Glee) 4.just a dream 5.only girl 6.telephone (Glee)
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Sept 24, 2010 1:31:48 GMT -5
Track = individual version of a song Song = that song in any form Single = a song that is promoted, often as a bundle with remixes or B-sides (usually in support of an album or soundtrack) This is pretty much what I think. Although the definition of a promoted song is not very good. There are loads of channels to promote stuff: Myspace, Blogs etc. All songs that are promoted are not singles. But I understand where 2m comes from. If you can buy a track separately, it's a single at least in your own mind. Meaning you like that particular track and want to buy it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 1:36:05 GMT -5
It used to be a single had to be available for purchase
Before itunes, songs promoted to radio but not available as a single were called album tracks
Based on definitions being used here, we are changing that.
A song can hit #1 now, in theory and not be a "single"
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Enigma.
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Post by Enigma. on Sept 24, 2010 1:42:11 GMT -5
To think of it, those Glee songs out now are obviously singles because the album is not available yet.
If they were released same time with the album they'd be album tracks.
However, I don't label them as hits even if they reach Top 50 in Hot 100.
Does this make sense?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 1:42:19 GMT -5
Classic example of an album track- promoted to radio that was not a single but under this definition would be a single
One of the biggest radio hits ever - not a single - Stairway To Heavan from Led Zeppelin
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 1:57:26 GMT -5
To think of it, those Glee songs out now are obviously singles because the album is not available yet. If they were released same time with the album they'd be album tracks. However, I don't label them as hits even if they reach Top 50 in Hot 100. Does this make sense? I did a quick check of itunes for singles heavy artists such as Taylor Swift. I counted 4 between all the albums and songs released to radio that had the word "single" next to it and was not listed as from a particular album. Are we saying Taylor Swift has had only 4 singles?
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SPRΞΞ
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Post by SPRΞΞ on Sept 24, 2010 2:01:40 GMT -5
To think of it, those Glee songs out now are obviously singles because the album is not available yet. If they were released same time with the album they'd be album tracks. However, I don't label them as hits even if they reach Top 50 in Hot 100. Does this make sense? of course, they're just like American Idol songs.
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felipe
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Post by felipe on Sept 24, 2010 4:40:24 GMT -5
If I was to name one, I wouldn't consider Perry's Last Friday Night a single. To me it's just an album track that charted. Why is that not a single? If this were pre-2003, it would meet the definition of a single by being available as a stand alone purchase. Why would it not be a single now, since it is available as a stand-alone purchase? Kid Rock's All summer long wasn't available for individual purchase at iTunes. By your definition, then, was it never a single?
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colson
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Post by colson on Sept 24, 2010 6:52:32 GMT -5
I love how these Glee tracks are having a quick rise and fall on this chart. :)
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 8:54:52 GMT -5
The Hot 100 is a songs chart. So I would say not every song is necessarily a single. The Glee tracks, to me, are songs that happened to have enough points to chart. In the example of Taylor Swift, songs like Love Story and You Belong With Me are singles (promoted to radio and music videos, etc.), while something like Hey Stephen was a song that happened to chart. In fact, in every Wikipedia discography I've seen, this distinction is made (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_swift_discography ) -- they have a category called "other charted songs." I recognize Wikipedia is not the ultimate authority but I think this distinction is accurate. 2m you are free to nitpick this distinction every time it comes up, but I think most people on here understand the concept of "single" vs. "album cut that got a lot of downloads for 1 or 2 weeks."
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 8:57:15 GMT -5
*Note -- the one area I would say there is some confusion about whether or not a song is a single is if it is promoted extremely minimally (i.e., at dance clubs only, like Rihanna's "Breakin' Dishes" or Madonna's "Nobody Knows Me"). But, again, there seems to be a distinction to draw here where you could call it a "promotional single" or even just specify "club single."
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 24, 2010 9:19:05 GMT -5
IMO, any track that's made available for individual purchase at iTunes, outside of an album, is a "single." It may not get the promotional treatment (radio push, video, etc.) a full-on single would get, but still a single.
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 9:23:58 GMT -5
IMO, any track that's made available for individual purchase at iTunes, outside of an album, is a "single." It may not get the promotional treatment (radio push, video, etc.) a full-on single would get, but still a single. Then virtually every song is a single, at which point, why even bother with having two terms. What do you call Madonna's "4 Minutes" vs. "Incredible"? There is no difference?
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 24, 2010 9:26:33 GMT -5
"Incredible" was available as a standalone single? News to me. :) What I mean is, you search for a track and it shows up in the results as 'Single," without the album title listed in its information.
I'm not talking about being able to buy a track individually- but how it's available on iTunes.
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 9:29:54 GMT -5
Taio Cruz's "Dynamite" is only listed within his album "Rokstarr." And I found that example within about 30 seconds, so I'm certain there are many more.
So that song is not a single?
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 24, 2010 9:34:13 GMT -5
^Yes, it is- let me expand further to say that any track that's not given the full promotional treatment, and is listed as "Single." Obviously, if a song is a big radio hit, has a video, etc.- it's a single.
What's in question are those tracks that aren't given the full radio/video promo treatment- i.e. "Glee" tracks, album-preview tracks released to iTunes before an album drops- those kinds of tracks. I'd consider them singles. Madonna's "Hey You" was released as a single on iTunes; Mimi Carey's "Right to Dream" and "100%" were released as singles on iTunes. Etc. Etc.
Hope that clears it up. ;)
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 10:05:48 GMT -5
See I think that's where you get terms like "promo single" and "buzz single."
Clearly this is a semantic swamp.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 24, 2010 10:08:29 GMT -5
^Surely. With some acts, if a lead single underperforms, they try classifying it as a "buzz single."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 10:15:19 GMT -5
2m you are free to nitpick this distinction every time it comes up, but I think most people on here understand the concept of "single" vs. "album cut that got a lot of downloads for 1 or 2 weeks."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 10:19:23 GMT -5
The Hot 100 is a songs chart. From 1958 to 1998 the Hot 100 was a SINGLES chart Songs like 'Stairway to Heavan' which would now be considered a "single" under the definition being used by people here were excluded from the SINGLES chart and referred to as an album track because it was not available for individual purchase. Post 1998 the hot 100 was a songs chart to include songs promoted to radio but not available for individual purchase such as 'All Summer Long' At what point was there a formal definition change, and what is it?
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felipe
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Post by felipe on Sept 24, 2010 10:21:29 GMT -5
"Incredible" was available as a standalone single? News to me. :) What I mean is, you search for a track and it shows up in the results as 'Single," without the album title listed in its information. I'm not talking about being able to buy a track individually- but how it's available on iTunes. That's my point. To me there's a difference between Glee songs (which are available and listed as singles) and a Taylor Swift album track, which is listed as such. And let's not forget Glee singles ARE promoted. They are released to coincide with the tv performances, which are watched by over 10 million people, so that's more promotion than many singles will ever get.
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felipe
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Post by felipe on Sept 24, 2010 10:30:45 GMT -5
The Hot 100 is a songs chart. From 1958 to 1998 the Hot 100 was a SINGLES chart Songs like 'Stairway to Heavan' which would now be considered a "single" under the definition being used by people here were excluded from the SINGLES chart and referred to as an album track because it was not available for individual purchase. Post 1998 the hot 100 was a songs chart to include songs promoted to radio but not available for individual purchase such as 'All Summer Long' At what point was there a formal definition change, and what is it? Just because a song is unelegible to chart it doesn't mean it's not a single. Don't speak didn't chart on the Hot 100 because of Billboard's rules, but it was a single nonetheless and I think it even appeared on other charts such as airplay. Billboard's rules do not necessarily define singles.
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Sept 24, 2010 10:40:10 GMT -5
The Hot 100 is a songs chart. From 1958 to 1998 the Hot 100 was a SINGLES chart Songs like 'Stairway to Heavan' which would now be considered a "single" under the definition being used by people here were excluded from the SINGLES chart and referred to as an album track because it was not available for individual purchase. Post 1998 the hot 100 was a songs chart to include songs promoted to radio but not available for individual purchase such as 'All Summer Long' At what point was there a formal definition change, and what is it? You are answering your own question. 1998 was the change -- the chart dated December 5, 1998 to be specific, as you mention above. By the definition at the time, songs like "Don't Speak" weren't singles by Billboard's strict rules, it's true. But the meaning of the term single has evolved beyond just physical availability. As I said, this is a semantic swamp. You can slice it a million different ways with how you define terms, but I think most people understand the difference between a song that got a promotional treatment (some mix of radio promotion, music video, remixes, etc.) and a song that just happened to get a week or two of big downloads because it was newly available and by a popular artist (or featured in a TV show). I personally think the easiest shorthand to define the former is "single." You, and some others, disagree. But if someone said something like, "wow, Lady Gaga's 'Starstruck' sold over 600,000 copies and it wasn't even a single," I'm pretty sure everyone here would know the intent of that statement. Spending dozens of posts attempting to divine the perfect meaning of the term "single" rather than just recognizing the rather clear implication there (the song sold very well despite not being promoted individually) is just nitpicky.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2010 10:45:59 GMT -5
From 1958 to 1998 the Hot 100 was a SINGLES chart Songs like 'Stairway to Heavan' which would now be considered a "single" under the definition being used by people here were excluded from the SINGLES chart and referred to as an album track because it was not available for individual purchase. Post 1998 the hot 100 was a songs chart to include songs promoted to radio but not available for individual purchase such as 'All Summer Long' At what point was there a formal definition change, and what is it? You are answering your own question. 1998 was the change -- the chart dated December 5, 1998 to be specific, as you mention above. By the definition at the time, songs like "Don't Speak" weren't singles by Billboard's strict rules, it's true. But the meaning of the term single has evolved beyond just physical availability. As I said, this is a semantic swamp. You can slice it a million different ways with how you define terms, but I think most people understand the difference between a song that got a promotional treatment (some mix of radio promotion, music video, remixes, etc.) and a song that just happened to get a week or two of big downloads because it was newly available and by a popular artist (or featured in a TV show). I personally think the easiest shorthand to define the former is "single." You, and some others, disagree. But if someone said something like, "wow, Lady Gaga's 'Starstruck' sold over 600,000 copies and it wasn't even a single," I'm pretty sure everyone here would know the intent of that statement. Spending dozens of posts attempting to divine the perfect meaning of the term "single" rather than just recognizing the rather clear implication there (the song sold very well despite not being promoted individually) is just nitpicky. By terms you are using, that is when it became a "songs chart" as it is defined today, to absorb songs not available for purchase.
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