shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 7, 2011 2:03:54 GMT -5
The issue is there are artists that receive top credit in a song when they change a word or they change one note in the melody. That's really terrible to me. How greedy can you be? The melody is just as important as the lyrics but they both go hand in hand and the same person usually writes both. Some of us are fooling themselves here. Rarely do artists get a song and say "well, I'll keep the melody but I'm going to change all of the lyrics!". +1 Exactly. Completely agreed. Here are my thoughts on this whole discussion, which some may or may not agree with. I personally think that, of course, songwriting is not just about lyrics. Melody and chord progressions are clearly of great importance in the song's overall composition and structure. If someone makes the bare minimum of contributions in either of these areas, that is simply not sufficient to gain a songwriting credit, in my opinion. Changing one or two words, a few notes in the melody, or one chord progression just isn't enough. Melody and lyrics are the most important, though, since (someone correct me if I'm wrong) most (if not all) chord progressions are not always copyrighted since there is a limited amount of chord progressions that can be written with any given melody (I know for a fact the most basic I-IV-V-I progression is not copyrighted since it is used in literally thousands of songs). There is not an infinite supply of chord progressions. I know many Beyonce apologists defend her by saying she does her own vocal harmonies. So? She should be credited for doing so in the liner notes or w/e, but not as the actual songwriter. What about the musician who wrote and/or arranged the string parts? Guitar parts? Drum beat? Do they get credited as songwriters? No, because these parts don't constitute the main parts of the song (melody/lyrics/chords). Put all these parts together and they are important, but separate them and they lose their significance. The same thing happens in screen/TV writing. Does someone who writes or changes just one line claim credit as the writer of the screenplay? No. One line, even if it's considered the best line of the film, is not enough. And I guess if they absolutely must be credited, (in film or music) then a new way of distinguishing between the main writer(s) should be made; e.g. 'Written by X with Y', or something Songwriters (and film/TV writers, for that matter) hardly get any credit as it is and it is completely ludicrous to me, when credits are stolen by ''artists'' like Beyonce (sorry to single her out, but it's true). Again, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I dare anyone to listen to the original version of ' Smack Smash into You' and tell me she deserved that songwriting credit. These songwriters have families to support and money to make. If part of their royalties is being taken by someone undeserving, then that's simply not fair. tl;dr: Taking credit where it's not due is NOT okay and completely akin to THEFT in my eyes. you cleary twist the whole situation. Yes, Beyonce always do vocal arrangement and vocal production jusy by herself. But it's not just 'beyonce only does vocal arrangement' generally, she does arrangement when it comes to demo songs submit by producers or writers. that includes vocal arrangements, and changes in a lot parts include melody, lyric, chord, key and others. the Arrangement is officially part of 'songwriting.'. so there's no cheating or lies, and she clearly deserves it. Also professional writers got credit by just doing some changes too. it's really common things. that's why there're songs have 4~5 writers. ------------- oh and smash into you. as someone said, song writing is not jusy about lyrics. Beyonce's Changes in the song 1. Different Drum sound. 2. Different Vocal Arrangement & Production 3. New Lyrics & Title : Smack into you -> Smash into You on Chrous it's 'I Wanna run' Twice. jon version was 'I wanna run' and 'I'm willing to run' beyonce keep the 'I wanna run' twice and maximize the meaning of last 'I'm willing to run run run run' part. 4. you can hear little differences on backgrounds (for exmple end of the song. Beyonce took off background sound(intro guitar sound). so other sound pop up (like piano's) and become more clean.) she gets the credit for this changes. simple as that. I saw that someone saying Beyonce's lead songwriter on halo because beyonce name is fisrt. that's bs. the order of writer list means nothing. it's really random.
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 7, 2011 2:06:57 GMT -5
ne-yo's word to Beyonce “I give other people credit where credit is due, like Beyonc� really did vocally arrange (‘Irreplaceable�),� Ne-Yo says. “So for someone to come in and take my credit because they are who they are? That doesn’t work for me. I don’t care who you are. ... I’m not going to give you something you don’t deserve.� this intervew was from the article "Who’s really writing those music hits? " today.msnbc.msn.com/id/19940398Afterall beyonce never been criticized by writer and producers she worked with. actually all of them praised her vision and works. and all the beyonce stealing thing was just internet gossip. I can prove all of them was false anytime.
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Post by kt1990 on Apr 7, 2011 4:48:22 GMT -5
Here we go... you cleary twist the whole situation. Nope. I was just stating #trufax. Yes, Beyonce always do vocal arrangement and vocal production jusy by herself. Didn't claim otherwise. But it's not just 'beyonce only does vocal arrangement' generally, she does arrangement when it comes to demo songs submit by producers or writers. that includes vocal arrangements, and changes in a lot parts include melody, lyric, chord, key and others. I neither know, nor care how involved she is in the studio. All I know is that vocal arrangments and the most minor of lyrical or melodic changes are not (or shouldn't be) sufficient to warrant a songwriting credit, that's what I was trying to argue. Also, transposing a song into a key that best fits someone's voice =/= songwriting. the Arrangement is officially part of 'songwriting.'. so there's no cheating or lies, and she clearly deserves it. Vocal arrangements/ad libs etc are not part of the main melody/chords of the song. Therefore, they are not and shouldn't be part of the songwriting credit. I wasn't trying to discredit Beyonce's involvement in this area, I was just stating she should be credited for that role alone...and that role is not part of the three main areas of songwriting. Also professional writers got credit by just doing some changes too. it's really common things. that's why there're songs have 4~5 writers. It doesn't matter who the person is, be it a professional writer or an 'artist' like Beyonce. The most minor of changes should not be used to claim a songwriting credit. I'm not oblivious to the fact that they are unjustly claimed. I know the songwriting business is questionable. I'm just expressing my contempt at the way the business side of the industry works, where artistic integrity is compromised by business men with little to no musical talent. oh and smash into you. as someone said, song writing is not jusy about lyrics. Didn't you read my post? I'm well aware of this. Beyonce's Changes in the song 1. Different Drum sound. Trivial. Production choice not songwriting. 2. Different Vocal Arrangement & Production You've just said it yourself. Production choice. Production =/= songwriting. 3. New Lyrics & Title : Smack into you -> Smash into You Trivial. on Chrous it's 'I Wanna run' Twice. jon version was 'I wanna run' and 'I'm willing to run' beyonce keep the 'I wanna run' twice and maximize the meaning of last 'I'm willing to run run run run' part. Trivial, minor structural change. 4. you can hear little differences on backgrounds (for exmple end of the song. Beyonce took off background sound(intro guitar sound). so other sound pop up (like piano's) and become more clean.) Trivial. Production/aesthetic choice. she gets the credit for this changes. simple as that. Typical apologist. I saw that someone saying Beyonce's lead songwriter on halo because beyonce name is fisrt. that's bs. the order of writer list means nothing. it's really random. Irrelevant. Do yourself a favor and brush up on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. And one more thing... ...Girl, bye.
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summers
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Post by summers on Apr 7, 2011 5:10:06 GMT -5
Beyonce's Changes in the song 1. Different Drum sound. 2. Different Vocal Arrangement & Production 3. New Lyrics & Title : Smack into you -> Smash into You on Chrous it's 'I Wanna run' Twice. jon version was 'I wanna run' and 'I'm willing to run' beyonce keep the 'I wanna run' twice and maximize the meaning of last 'I'm willing to run run run run' part. 4. you can hear little differences on backgrounds (for exmple end of the song. Beyonce took off background sound(intro guitar sound). so other sound pop up (like piano's) and become more clean.) she gets the credit for this changes. simple as that. I'm not really familiar with this whole Beyonce song writing issue, but this breakdown actually convinces me that she should not be credited as a song writer for that song, but instead only credited for production and vocal arrangement. Just my opinion.
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spooky21
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Post by spooky21 on Apr 7, 2011 6:54:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree that more goes into the writing than the lyrics itself. However... So what if someone takes publishing on something they don't write. That's the cost of doing business. This statement is ridiculous. Writers get little credit as it is and they have a right to want to stand by their work as their own and not have to share it just because the singer is the one with the name and money. Exactly. The artists are demanding publishing simply because that where all the residual long term income is going to come from. If you actually contributed to the composition of the record then I can understand the argument. The writers are being shafted because this is their only source of income. The artist is going to get paid by the record company, get paid for touring, and have countless other revenue streams that will not be shared with the original writer. Why must they also go after publishing when they had little to no impact on the composition of the record? Celine Dion was famous for this back in the 90's.
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spooky21
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Post by spooky21 on Apr 7, 2011 6:57:32 GMT -5
I'm just glad it's not Beyonce being accused this time. It seems alot of artists make claims of writing and such. But I believe if they changes words, melodys, chords, ect they should get credited..do if Rihanna takes a song she likes a makes changes, adds stuff, ect she should get credit, same with Justin/Kanye. As long as the other writers get credited as well than I see no problem. I think it is easier to understand if you are a writer. Like, imagine you write an entire cd and you are proud of it and you poured everything into it. Then the cd comes out and pretty much nothing has changed, but the artist suddenly has credits all over it and talks in interviews about creating their own music and fans flip their s**t talking about how talented the artist is to create and make their own sound. That happens a LOT and if you do create stuff I can see how it is annoying. I write fiction and I would not be able to imagine writing an entire novel, having someone change literally one word, and then racing out to interview about the hard process of creating that novel. Yes, it is part of the business, but I can genuinely see why the real songwriters occasionally get miffed by it. It is a human response. It is not ever going to change though. Pop fans are obsessed with the idea that their pop artists write their own cds and create their own music. Even songs with absolute zero credit given to the artist become the artist's creation. Audiences want to believe that the song is coming from the artist and a lot of that includes the artist and their teams deliberately over-inflating how much influence an artist has over the actual songs. It happens a lot and it is hard to tell who actually IS controlling their own music and who isn't. I try to keep an open mind either way. Fonzing you for this!
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Apr 7, 2011 15:10:58 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and brush up on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. And one more thing... you should do the same. People deserve to be credited & paid for their work regardless of the size of their contribution. People should be paid for the work that they do and get credit for what they've done regardless of the amount of work they put in.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Apr 7, 2011 15:21:46 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree that more goes into the writing than the lyrics itself. However... This statement is ridiculous. Writers get little credit as it is and they have a right to want to stand by their work as their own and not have to share it just because the singer is the one with the name and money. Exactly. The artists are demanding publishing simply because that where all the residual long term income is going to come from. If you actually contributed to the composition of the record then I can understand the argument. The writers are being shafted because this is their only source of income. The artist is going to get paid by the record company, get paid for touring, and have countless other revenue streams that will not be shared with the original writer. Why must they also go after publishing when they had little to no impact on the composition of the record? Celine Dion was famous for this back in the 90's. If the artist is singing the record, they had a hand in composing the record....by default. The record wouldn't have sounded the way it did without the recording artist. To me the sound is the most fundamentally important thing when it comes to making a record. Anything that can affect the sound affects the song writing. There is no song writing without sound. Ultimately the artists are the one who are selling he record. The artists voice and image in combination with the song itself is what is selling the record and all contributes to a song's success or failure. Writers think they are the be all end all in the success of a song but it's actually a combination people and things. The writers should be thankful that someone like Celine and others want to use the writers song for their album. If anyone could sing the records and sell them to the general public and the writer could keep all of the publishing then they should've pursued that option to begin with. In some cases, artist taking publishing really is the cost of doing business. Again, If anyone could sing the record and the record would still be a hit, then it makes no sense on any level for a lyric writer to go to an artist who is going to take publishing. I believe the very fact that the artist performed the song at all entitles them to a song composition publishing credit related to the record they sung. Songs aren't books. Songs are songs. There is more that goes into a song than writing words and everyone who contributed big or small should be compensated and credited for it.
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Post by out of reach on Apr 7, 2011 15:55:03 GMT -5
I disagree, that's performing the song, not composing. That's using their instrument(voice) just like a studio guitarist/drummer play the melodies, riffs, beat ect...
I agree with you that credit is due where it's due and that an artist makes or breaks a song. But without the creative songwriters, the song doesn't exist and Celine/Beyonce ect... don't have the major hits and radio airplay that made them who they are. They go hand in hand.
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Post by kt1990 on Apr 7, 2011 17:04:08 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and brush up on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. And one more thing... you should do the same. People deserve to be credited & paid for their work regardless of the size of their contribution. People should be paid for the work that they do and get credit for what they've done regardless of the amount of work they put in. This makes absolutely no sense. I disagree, that's performing the song, not composing. That's using their instrument(voice) just like a studio guitarist/drummer play the melodies, riffs, beat ect... . Exactly. Interpreting a song that someone else wrote =/= composing.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Apr 7, 2011 17:09:20 GMT -5
^ How does it not? The size of their contribution should come into play when calculating percentage of publishing each contributor takes.
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Post by kt1990 on Apr 7, 2011 17:35:16 GMT -5
^Well, he's basically saying you can do the bare minimum and expect credit for it. I know that's how the 'industry' works, etc. But I just find that nonsensical and completely unjust. If it's not a significant contribution it should be negligable.
For example, Kelly Clarkson had a small input in the lyrical direction of both 'My Life Would Suck Without You' and 'Since U Been Gone', but it wasn't enough to gain credit.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Apr 7, 2011 17:52:50 GMT -5
What amount is enough to gain credit isn't up for us to decide though.
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Post by out of reach on Apr 7, 2011 17:58:19 GMT -5
What amount is enough to gain credit isn't up for us to decide though. Not sure. I don't think we can make direct analogies but in the design world when you change a design by at least 20% it's technically fair game. I think the equivalent of what's happening is that I payed an individual or company for a website template then changed some minor things like color or buttons to suit my audience and then claimed I designed it. I would get sued for that if I make money off that design.
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Post by kt1990 on Apr 7, 2011 17:59:43 GMT -5
What amount is enough to gain credit isn't up for us to decide though. That's true and I suppose we'll never know what really goes on in the music industry. To draw this discussion to a close, I guess it ultimately depends on what your definition of 'contribution' is. To me, changing one word or altering one line is in no way tantamount to a 'contribution' and is therefore a mere trifle when it comes to determining the sharing of credits. But that's just my opinion.
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Post by neverduplicated on Apr 7, 2011 18:00:14 GMT -5
I believe the very fact that the artist performed the song at all entitles them to a song composition publishing credit related to the record they sung. I find this statement to be a bit ridiculous. If you sing a song and nothing more, you should be credited as a singer and nothing more. Should the writer be credited as a singer because without them there would be no words to be sung?
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 8, 2011 0:04:06 GMT -5
Do yourself a favor and brush up on your reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. And one more thing... you should do the same. People deserve to be credited & paid for their work regardless of the size of their contribution. People should be paid for the work that they do and get credit for what they've done regardless of the amount of work they put in. exactly. and As I said, Arrangement is officially part of songwiring, not a illegal aggrement in the behind. so get over it.
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Apr 8, 2011 0:20:52 GMT -5
I'd like to point out that K.T. is right in that chord progressions cannot be copyrighted because there are only so many different chord progressions somebody can use to write a song.
I'd also like to point out that Jon McLaughlin's beyond incredible version of 'Smack Into You' is much better than Beyonce's which, although good, cannot compare at all. :)
And I'm sorry but her getting a writing credit for Billy Joel's 'Honesty' is a joke. Vocal arrangements my butt. Just saw she got the top credit for 'Smash Into You' too. A bit much, I'd say.
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 9, 2011 4:27:58 GMT -5
I'd like to point out that K.T. is right in that chord progressions cannot be copyrighted because there are only so many different chord progressions somebody can use to write a song. I'd also like to point out that Jon McLaughlin's beyond incredible version of 'Smack Into You' is much better than Beyonce's which, although good, cannot compare at all. :) And I'm sorry but her getting a writing credit for Billy Joel's 'Honesty' is a joke. Vocal arrangements my butt. Just saw she got the top credit for 'Smash Into You' too. A bit much, I'd say. how about do your reserch first? 1. she doesn't have writer credit on Honesty. 2. the order of writer credit means nothing. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204073615AAkwcM2
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 9, 2011 5:25:17 GMT -5
Common practice; you'll find that even the artists that are known for writing, themselves, sometimes make legal arrangements to apply their name or remove someone elses from credits. This is not a new development either, nor is it a rapidly increasing trend. However it's interesting she is accusing Kanye, Bieber, and Rihanna of making false songwriting claims and using Britney as an example of an artist who doesn't participate in such practices. Last year I had an opportunity to interview Henry Walter (co-writer and producer of "Mmm Papa", a track on Britney's Circus album in which Britney is billed as lead writer). He was very candid about a variety of subjects to do with "the pond" (a humorous reference to the industry being tight-nit and fishy), however, when I questioned him about his experience writing with Spears, I was met with only a long pause, smirk and the only time in which he refused to answer a question. Later in the interview, although not directly in response to the Spears inquiry, he further explained to me how writers that sign away or give "unwarranted" credits are also contractually obligated to maintaining the confidentiality of the agreement. Was there not also a recent case that involved a writer taking to twitter to rant about Spears "taking publishing credit" on a song she claimed to have written? "Mannequin", I believe? While I don't doubt the validity of Heather's claims, I can't help but feel there's some motivation behind publicizing this. actually, henry walter didn't exactly work with Britney, they just made the track and Nicole Morier heard it and made the lyrics with Brit. Nicole Morier interview about britneyabout Mannequin this is what I found
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Apr 9, 2011 9:15:40 GMT -5
ROFL if you posted the Britney stuff because you disagree with my post then you can save it because I'm not one of those fans. I'd like to point out that K.T. is right in that chord progressions cannot be copyrighted because there are only so many different chord progressions somebody can use to write a song. I'd also like to point out that Jon McLaughlin's beyond incredible version of 'Smack Into You' is much better than Beyonce's which, although good, cannot compare at all. :) And I'm sorry but her getting a writing credit for Billy Joel's 'Honesty' is a joke. Vocal arrangements my butt. Just saw she got the top credit for 'Smash Into You' too. A bit much, I'd say. how about do your reserch first? 1. she doesn't have writer credit on Honesty. 2. the order of writer credit means nothing. answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204073615AAkwcM2How about you do your rese arch first? You obviously don't realize what I do outside of Pulse. I'm not just a casual fan of music. It's my life. 1. I was only going by Wikipedia. I know it's not a 100% accurate source but they say that Beyoncé helped write 'Honesty'. She clearly did not. 2. I know the order of the credits isn't necessarily the order of importance/the ouput put in. I typically go in order of output when I write my own songs. I personally think putting your name first, just because you're the most well-known, is a bit deceiving. Putting her name on top of every other writer for 'Smash Into You'...is deceiving. Because we know she had no hand in actually writing much of anything on that song.
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shayonce
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Post by shayonce on Apr 9, 2011 23:46:11 GMT -5
really? you're not one of those crazy fan? did you even read my post? seriously, I post Britney related news because nighttime metioned it.
1.and again. wikipedia? seriosly? If you're really songwriter then you should know better place like ASCAP, BMI. lol Beyonce is not listed as writer on Honesty in ASCAP.(also on Album booklet) FACT.
2. smash in to you?? where did you see that? wikipedia? Beyonce's name is last on smash into you songwriting credit. (Album booklet) lol by the way, ASCAP using 'alphabet order'. (just in case, you come as Beyonce name is first on ASCAP!)
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R.K.
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Post by R.K. on Apr 10, 2011 0:00:46 GMT -5
Just checked the album booklet: Beyonce's name is the last on Smash Into You's credit.
So whoever says her name is in front got their info from wikipedia.
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Apr 10, 2011 1:13:57 GMT -5
really? you're not one of those crazy fan? did you even read my post? seriously, I post Britney related news because nighttime metioned it. 1.and again. wikipedia? seriosly? If you're really songwriter then you should know better place like ASCAP, BMI. lol Beyonce is not listed as writer on Honesty in ASCAP.(also on Album booklet) FACT. 2. smash in to you?? where did you see that? wikipedia? Beyonce's name is last on smash into you songwriting credit. (Album booklet) lol by the way, ASCAP using 'alphabet order'. (just in case, you come as Beyonce name is first on ASCAP!) I am absolutely not one of those crazy fans. Really. I can barely comprehend most of your post, but I'm assuming you're upset with me. ...I honestly....don't care at all.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Apr 10, 2011 8:33:58 GMT -5
2. smash in to you?? where did you see that? wikipedia? Beyonce's name is last on smash into you songwriting credit. (Album booklet) lol by the way, ASCAP using 'alphabet order'. (just in case, you come as Beyonce name is first on ASCAP!) LOL. I have no idea what you're actually trying to say with this post. He's telling the truth. Beyoncé doesn't have a writing credit on 'Honesty' and her name is listed as the 1st one on 'Smash Into You' because ASCAP uses alphabetical order. In the album booklet she's the last one listed.
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TheJakes
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Post by TheJakes on Apr 10, 2011 9:42:55 GMT -5
Three pages and I do not think anyone here actually linked to Heather Bright's original post about this on her blog. As well I get the impression that many fans are ignorant in deep denial about how unethical and immoral the actual business of making music is. People like Beyonce are behaving like a true music industry executive where unethical behavior and outright theft are common industry practices. Below is a post I made elsewhere related to the comments Heather Bright made about Britney being outside the norm. Songwriter Heather Bright has a great post on her blog about the songwriting process and having one of her songs, "Trouble for Me", on her new album. I think she hit the nail on the head when she says that one of the reasons Britney has done so well over the last dozen years is that she, and her team, treat those she works with, producers, songwriters, dancers, tour openers, with respect and she is not a credit thief. :cough:Beyonce:cough: It reminds of something Nikka Costa said after opening for Britney on her DWaD Tour that it was the best experience as an opening act she ever had. She was paid in full and on time (which I gather was not always the case by others) and that she was treated well the entire tour. Karma can be a bitch but if you treat people well it can reward you.
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Post by out of reach on Apr 10, 2011 22:36:07 GMT -5
You know this is interesting but imo Britney doesn't need to be taken seriously as a songwriter. We all know she doesn't write or sing for that matter but people don't care, she's got it where it counts and understands that she needs hit songs. I don't know what Beyonce is afraid of, she's got it where it counts. I can understand someone like Beiber or Rhianna who may not enjoy longevity.
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Purple Dreams
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Post by Purple Dreams on Apr 11, 2011 6:35:43 GMT -5
It seems like Beyonce wants to project an image where she does it all: sings, writes, produces, dances, acts, horeographs, designs clothing....
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Post by passionformusic on Apr 11, 2011 7:45:31 GMT -5
Funny how the headline of the article left Kanye out...but he is named alongside Rihanna and Biebz in the first sentence.
Interesting read,anyway.
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