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Post by out of reach on Apr 4, 2011 13:49:23 GMT -5
I think the frustrating part is to know that fanbases promote certain pop artists as great songwriters when their involovement may be minor at best.
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Post by Peaches. [Ch, r. is] on Apr 4, 2011 13:54:48 GMT -5
The only one that makes sense imo is Bieber. The only significant contribution Rihanna made on Loud was being an exec prouducer. She doesn't really co-write many of her song so I really don't get the accusation. Kanye seems like he is heavily involved in his work. There's just ssomething fishy about Bieber. He didn't co-write that much on his debut and I highly doubt that he co-writes his music. Spoken like a true Bieber hater >:( As stated, writing credits can be given chord progressions, not just the lyrics, and that's where I'd imagine Beiber falls.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2011 14:03:20 GMT -5
I'm just glad it's not Beyonce being accused this time. It seems alot of artists make claims of writing and such. But I believe if they changes words, melodys, chords, ect they should get credited..do if Rihanna takes a song she likes a makes changes, adds stuff, ect she should get credit, same with Justin/Kanye.
As long as the other writers get credited as well than I see no problem.
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Post by Love Plastic Love on Apr 4, 2011 14:22:40 GMT -5
I'm just glad it's not Beyonce being accused this time. It seems alot of artists make claims of writing and such. But I believe if they changes words, melodys, chords, ect they should get credited..do if Rihanna takes a song she likes a makes changes, adds stuff, ect she should get credit, same with Justin/Kanye. As long as the other writers get credited as well than I see no problem. I think it is easier to understand if you are a writer. Like, imagine you write an entire cd and you are proud of it and you poured everything into it. Then the cd comes out and pretty much nothing has changed, but the artist suddenly has credits all over it and talks in interviews about creating their own music and fans flip their s**t talking about how talented the artist is to create and make their own sound. That happens a LOT and if you do create stuff I can see how it is annoying. I write fiction and I would not be able to imagine writing an entire novel, having someone change literally one word, and then racing out to interview about the hard process of creating that novel. Yes, it is part of the business, but I can genuinely see why the real songwriters occasionally get miffed by it. It is a human response. It is not ever going to change though. Pop fans are obsessed with the idea that their pop artists write their own cds and create their own music. Even songs with absolute zero credit given to the artist become the artist's creation. Audiences want to believe that the song is coming from the artist and a lot of that includes the artist and their teams deliberately over-inflating how much influence an artist has over the actual songs. It happens a lot and it is hard to tell who actually IS controlling their own music and who isn't. I try to keep an open mind either way.
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$uperb@tDuDe
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Post by $uperb@tDuDe on Apr 4, 2011 14:35:39 GMT -5
We all know Rihanna doesn't write her own lyrics, in fact the only HIT I remember her name being attached to was Rude Boy.
I find Kanye being implicated in this rather odd as I don't recall any male rapper having lyrics written for them. Plus Kanye has a very unique style of rapping, no one comes up with the stuff he says lol.
Bieber seems like a puppet, so I do find it believable that he doesn't write lyrics.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Apr 4, 2011 14:50:47 GMT -5
I'm just glad it's not Beyonce being accused this time. ikr!
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Post by out of reach on Apr 4, 2011 15:02:02 GMT -5
I think this a key point and why artists like Kesha and Katy Perry have been able to grow fanbases they have and how Taylor Swift has been over marketed as a songwriter.
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Post by K. on Apr 4, 2011 15:04:31 GMT -5
Lol, Beyonce will simply change one word in the chorus of a song and claim co-authorship (see, e.g., "'Smash into You'")
Rihanna though, to my knowledge, doesn't claim authorship that often.
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#LisaRinna
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Post by #LisaRinna on Apr 4, 2011 15:12:12 GMT -5
Lol, Beyonce will simply change one word in the chorus of a song and claim co-authorship (see, e.g., "'Smash into You'") So? Blame the co-writers for allowing her to, then.
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Lockheart
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Post by Lockheart on Apr 4, 2011 15:20:14 GMT -5
Bey was not mentioned in the article, but everytime songwriting claim disputes is talked about, her name always comes up. I wonder why..
I agree with this. And their writing skills are very true to them, despite the three being criticized for their subject matter. But still, the public wants their singers to write their own songs. Songs like Piece of Me, imo, would have been more "better" if Britney actually wrote it from her point of view than someone writing it for her
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Post by neverduplicated on Apr 4, 2011 15:47:26 GMT -5
I'm just glad it's not Beyonce being accused this time. It seems alot of artists make claims of writing and such. But I believe if they changes words, melodys, chords, ect they should get credited..do if Rihanna takes a song she likes a makes changes, adds stuff, ect she should get credit, same with Justin/Kanye. As long as the other writers get credited as well than I see no problem. I think it is easier to understand if you are a writer. Like, imagine you write an entire cd and you are proud of it and you poured everything into it. Then the cd comes out and pretty much nothing has changed, but the artist suddenly has credits all over it and talks in interviews about creating their own music and fans flip their s**t talking about how talented the artist is to create and make their own sound. That happens a LOT and if you do create stuff I can see how it is annoying. I write fiction and I would not be able to imagine writing an entire novel, having someone change literally one word, and then racing out to interview about the hard process of creating that novel. Yes, it is part of the business, but I can genuinely see why the real songwriters occasionally get miffed by it. It is a human response. This is basically how I feel. Just about anyone could change a line or two in a song. You don't have to be particularly talented to use a thesaurus. However actually creating a song from scratch is a real skill to have, without which there would be no lines to alter.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Apr 4, 2011 17:15:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree that more goes into the writing than the lyrics itself. However... So what if someone takes publishing on something they don't write. That's the cost of doing business. This statement is ridiculous. Writers get little credit as it is and they have a right to want to stand by their work as their own and not have to share it just because the singer is the one with the name and money. I dunno. Seems like a legitimate statement. With the music industry more and more moving toward a business to make money rather than whatever it was built in, where the money comes from is more and more important. Everytime the situation of songwriting comes up, I'm always reminded of the Bob Marley song that Bob purposely gave a songwriting credit to a family friend who was in need just so that friend would receive the royalties from the song for as long as the song continued to make them. I think, like most everything else, the issue of royalties isn't so much "taking credit" as it is signing over where the money goes. That's why I've since been skeptical of what credits say. It's unfortunate that even "credits" aren't what they seem.
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Post by Ezekiel 23:20–21 on Apr 4, 2011 18:08:15 GMT -5
It's not like this whole sort of 'behavior' is completely brand new. It has been happening for quite a while in various capacities, and will continue to (unfortunately).
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wunderkind
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Post by wunderkind on Apr 4, 2011 20:19:25 GMT -5
For those of you who think that changing melodies wouldn't count, what do you say about instrumental songs without lyrics? Did no one write them? Have you seen sheet music before? That is typically (but not always) done by a PRODUCER, not a song writer. That's what I was trying to get accross in my post earlier in this thread. Most people think of song writing as creating LYRICS, and I think that's why people are upset. Sure, maybe these "artists" deserve some credit for changing a melody here or there (we really don't even know if they do that much... it's just fans jumping on the defense), but I don't know if they should be listed as a song writer. Maybe listed as a secondary producer or something, I don't know.
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libri
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Post by libri on Apr 4, 2011 20:22:36 GMT -5
It seems to me the problem with Beyonce is that she'd taken songwriting credit for what should have been song or vocal arrangement credit. But I guess the latter would have meant far less money and cred. Art Garfunkel only took credit as an arranger, not as a writer for a lot of S&G songs even tho in addition to doing song and vocal arrangement, he also contributed here and there to the songs that Paul Simon had written when they were working on them in the studio. He said that the songs were Paul's songs so it would not feel right to take credit for them.
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Post by Fat Ass Kelly Price on Apr 4, 2011 20:54:09 GMT -5
For those of you who think that changing melodies wouldn't count, what do you say about instrumental songs without lyrics? Did no one write them? Have you seen sheet music before? That is typically (but not always) done by a PRODUCER, not a song writer. That's what I was trying to get accross in my post earlier in this thread. Most people think of song writing as creating LYRICS, and I think that's why people are upset. Sure, maybe these "artists" deserve some credit for changing a melody here or there (we really don't even know if they do that much... it's just fans jumping on the defense), but I don't know if they should be listed as a song writer. Maybe listed as a secondary producer or something, I don't know. Well, just because songwriting is thought of as being the creation of lyrics, doesn't not mean that the other components should not receive credit. That's crazy thinking. If people get past the misguided thought of songwriting as strictly pen to paper, then the easier this is for people to grasp. A widespread, misguided misconception doesn't make it right. Whatever constitutes a songwriting credit is up to those involved in the song's conception. I personally feel that alteration of a melody is more linked to songwriting than producing. Give six songwriters the same instrumental, and you'll receive six songs with six different melodic structures. Melody and songwriting goes hand in hand. End of the day, none of us truly knows how much anyone contributes to the songwriting process. We're going off of hearsay, and whatever we want to believe. With that said, I just want to state a fact. A songwriting copyright is awarded to those who jointly contributed to the song's structure, chord progressions, and lyrics. Your opinion on whether anything other than actual composition of lyrics constitutes a songwriting credit is irrelevant. If someone has contributed to any of those things (despite how miniscule), then the credit is warranted. And who knows how much of the song's publishing is received by those who contributed the least? Point is, all of that is an interior thing that is dealt with beforehand. What ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? I feel like many love to jump the gun. Benefit of the doubt, people. And whatever change of one word, or one line, etc., could have been one that took skill in recognizing what melodically works or does not work. Just because the change is intrinsically small, it doesn't mean that its value is.
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badrobot
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Post by badrobot on Apr 4, 2011 21:30:06 GMT -5
For those of you who think that changing melodies wouldn't count, what do you say about instrumental songs without lyrics? Did no one write them? Have you seen sheet music before? That is typically (but not always) done by a PRODUCER, not a song writer. That's what I was trying to get accross in my post earlier in this thread. Most people think of song writing as creating LYRICS, and I think that's why people are upset. Sure, maybe these "artists" deserve some credit for changing a melody here or there (we really don't even know if they do that much... it's just fans jumping on the defense), but I don't know if they should be listed as a song writer. Maybe listed as a secondary producer or something, I don't know. No, that's not typically done by a producer. Some producers are also songwriters, but you can be a producer without writing. By your logic, that means people like Bach and Beethoven were "producers" because they didn't write lyrics. Let's ground this a bit. A song in it's written formed is composed of lyrics, melody, and chords. Chords can be made up with different instruments, different octaves and inversions, etc. A producer may decide to switch from a mid-range piano sound to a couple octaves up with some high strings instead. They are not rewriting the song, they are just interpreting it musically different. But they didn't write the original chord. I have a degree in audio production and have worked in studios and recorded and written my own music. Trust me on this one.
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Post by out of reach on Apr 4, 2011 22:18:25 GMT -5
Yeah producers don't usually write the music. Maybe that's thinking from the electro pop world where someone like Red One pushes a few buttons. But someone like Howard Benson certainly didn't write any music that's the territory of musicians and why I respect bands and artists that do both as they write the lyrics and music and the producers mix it together and maybe add some bells and whistles.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Apr 5, 2011 10:11:41 GMT -5
For those of you who think that changing melodies wouldn't count, what do you say about instrumental songs without lyrics? Did no one write them? Have you seen sheet music before? That is typically (but not always) done by a PRODUCER, not a song writer. That's what I was trying to get accross in my post earlier in this thread. Most people think of song writing as creating LYRICS, and I think that's why people are upset. Sure, maybe these "artists" deserve some credit for changing a melody here or there (we really don't even know if they do that much... it's just fans jumping on the defense), but I don't know if they should be listed as a song writer. Maybe listed as a secondary producer or something, I don't know. Song writing means what it says. It doesn't just hold for writing lyrics. It also holds for writing melodys, instrumentals etc...
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Apr 5, 2011 10:20:52 GMT -5
The issue is there are artists that receive top credit in a song when they change a word or they change one note in the melody. That's really terrible to me. How greedy can you be?
The melody is just as important as the lyrics but they both go hand in hand and the same person usually writes both. Some of us are fooling themselves here. Rarely do artists get a song and say "well, I'll keep the melody but I'm going to change all of the lyrics!".
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Black Jesus
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Post by Black Jesus on Apr 5, 2011 10:23:51 GMT -5
Not surprised about Rihanna and Bieber but I am a bit shocked about Kanye.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Apr 5, 2011 11:00:26 GMT -5
The issue is there are artists that receive top credit in a song when they change a word or they change one note in the melody. That's really terrible to me. How greedy can you be? The melody is just as important as the lyrics but they both go hand in hand and the same person usually writes both. Some of us are fooling themselves here. Rarely do artists get a song and say "well, I'll keep the melody but I'm going to change all of the lyrics!". I wouldn't say usually. I would say sometimes at best.
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esoteric76
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Post by esoteric76 on Apr 5, 2011 11:25:06 GMT -5
There was rumors of Celine Dion taking undeserved songwriting credit while shopping for songs for her Let's Talk About Love cd, and something about Carole King putting her foot down on it. I wish I could find the article. I hate hearing about these kinds of stories, because the songwriter should get all of his/her money, this is their work.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Apr 5, 2011 12:28:52 GMT -5
For those of you who think that changing melodies wouldn't count, what do you say about instrumental songs without lyrics? Did no one write them? Have you seen sheet music before? That is typically (but not always) done by a PRODUCER, not a song writer. Umm, no. A melody is written, it's not done by the producer.
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Hefty Hanna
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Post by Hefty Hanna on Apr 5, 2011 18:29:15 GMT -5
The issue is there are artists that receive top credit in a song when they change a word or they change one note in the melody. That's really terrible to me. How greedy can you be? The melody is just as important as the lyrics but they both go hand in hand and the same person usually writes both. Some of us are fooling themselves here. Rarely do artists get a song and say "well, I'll keep the melody but I'm going to change all of the lyrics!". I wouldn't say usually. I would say sometimes at best. ...that's not true at all but there's really no point in arguing with you.
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Post by countryfan2002 on Apr 5, 2011 19:31:30 GMT -5
If anything, she's doing Bieber a favor, taking his name out of "Baby, baby, baby, ohh."
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summers
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Post by summers on Apr 5, 2011 22:15:17 GMT -5
Very true, and I think not enough credit is given for the writing of melodies, background vocals, and overall song structure. I do think it's annoying and unjustified, however, when a singer basically gets handed a song and then slightly changes some lyrics or makes very minimal changes to the melody and then gets a songwriting credit. Isn't that what Beyonce got beef over? idk. Apparently Beyonce does a lot with the vocal arrangements, background vocals, melodies, etc. It seems to me the problem with Beyonce is that she'd taken songwriting credit for what should have been song or vocal arrangement credit. But I guess the latter would have meant far less money and cred. Art Garfunkel only took credit as an arranger, not as a writer for a lot of S&G songs even tho in addition to doing song and vocal arrangement, he also contributed here and there to the songs that Paul Simon had written when they were working on them in the studio. He said that the songs were Paul's songs so it would not feel right to take credit for them. I agree with this. I think it is always important and fair to identify who did exactly what in a recording of a track. I remember in Mariah's earlier albums, they clearly differentiate song writing, producing and vocal arrangement credits. When Mariah did the background vocal arrangement for Babyface's Everytime I Close My Eyes, she was credited for exactly that, not as a song writer.
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Wave.
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Post by Wave. on Apr 5, 2011 23:25:47 GMT -5
Cudi had some involvement in 808's&Heartbreak. But He HELPED write some of the songs. I mean Ye got some inspiration from Cudi? He's the king of depression
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Post by kt1990 on Apr 6, 2011 4:48:09 GMT -5
The issue is there are artists that receive top credit in a song when they change a word or they change one note in the melody. That's really terrible to me. How greedy can you be? The melody is just as important as the lyrics but they both go hand in hand and the same person usually writes both. Some of us are fooling themselves here. Rarely do artists get a song and say "well, I'll keep the melody but I'm going to change all of the lyrics!". +1 Exactly. Completely agreed. Here are my thoughts on this whole discussion, which some may or may not agree with. I personally think that, of course, songwriting is not just about lyrics. Melody and chord progressions are clearly of great importance in the song's overall composition and structure. If someone makes the bare minimum of contributions in either of these areas, that is simply not sufficient to gain a songwriting credit, in my opinion. Changing one or two words, a few notes in the melody, or one chord progression just isn't enough. Melody and lyrics are the most important, though, since (someone correct me if I'm wrong) most (if not all) chord progressions are not always copyrighted since there is a limited amount of chord progressions that can be written with any given melody (I know for a fact the most basic I-IV-V-I progression is not copyrighted since it is used in literally thousands of songs). There is not an infinite supply of chord progressions. I know many Beyonce apologists defend her by saying she does her own vocal harmonies. So? She should be credited for doing so in the liner notes or w/e, but not as the actual songwriter. What about the musician who wrote and/or arranged the string parts? Guitar parts? Drum beat? Do they get credited as songwriters? No, because these parts don't constitute the main parts of the song (melody/lyrics/chords). Put all these parts together and they are important, but separate them and they lose their significance. The same thing happens in screen/TV writing. Does someone who writes or changes just one line claim credit as the writer of the screenplay? No. One line, even if it's considered the best line of the film, is not enough. And I guess if they absolutely must be credited, (in film or music) then a new way of distinguishing between the main writer(s) should be made; e.g. 'Written by X with Y', or something Songwriters (and film/TV writers, for that matter) hardly get any credit as it is and it is completely ludicrous to me, when credits are stolen by ''artists'' like Beyonce (sorry to single her out, but it's true). Again, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I dare anyone to listen to the original version of ' Smack Smash into You' and tell me she deserved that songwriting credit. These songwriters have families to support and money to make. If part of their royalties is being taken by someone undeserving, then that's simply not fair. tl;dr: Taking credit where it's not due is NOT okay and completely akin to THEFT in my eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2011 21:29:55 GMT -5
These are all Def Jam artists. Does she just have a grudge against the label or an unpaid IOU or something? And ngl, Bright's accusation against Rihanna alone almost singlehandedly discredits her; she looks silly trying to go in on someone who has relatively few writing credits - none of which are first-writer credits - and who has never tried to sell herself as a songwriter at any point.
This topic in general is frustrating to me because it really shouldn't be so difficult to give recognition to the composers and writers of a song, even if they aren't necessarily getting paid for it. That's really what a lot of this comes down to - trying to get as much of the pie as possible - but one can assign, or transfer, their copyright share to someone else. Assigning part or all of one's copyrights (and therefore royalties) to an artist may indeed just be "the cost of business" and I have no judgment one way or the other on that, but if someone is willing to do that, why not at least let them keep the honor of being able to say 'yeah, I co-wrote that song!" I always assume now that whatever names I see in the liner notes are simply the people who own at least a sliver of the copyright; whether or not I believe they wrote anything I just have to figure out on my own.
Also, the whole "what does song 'writing' actually mean" debate is somewhat irrelevant to the actual argument that is usually at hand. When the artist in question is claiming to have written lyrics that he/she didn't write then yelling "well she arranged the vocals!" is simply an attempt at diverting the subject - the person is still claiming to have done something that other people claim he or she did not do. That said, a lot of people do mistakenly assume that songwriting ONLY refers to lyrics (in respect to divvying up royalties it also refers to music composers). Trying to catch vocal arrangements under the 'writing' umbrella is kind of dicey, but it comes down to whether the person really did give input on most of the melody, or if they just changed a couple of ad-libs to suit their fancy.
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