grandelf
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Post by grandelf on Aug 20, 2011 4:33:51 GMT -5
I also think critics do matter. You should always give something a listen and decide for yourself, but these are people who are generally more educated and experienced than your average person pulled from the street, and it's their job to listen to an album or song and respond objectively. Of course, it's still their own personal response, but trust me that they are very aware that people's opinion on their opinion depends almost entirely on whether that person agrees with their review or not. I have a feeling you'd be quicker to use critical reception as a plus for Katy's era had the response been positive. Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s.
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worldwide
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Post by worldwide on Aug 20, 2011 8:20:55 GMT -5
Updated - Most #1's one album 5 - Michael Jackson — Bad 1987-1988 5 - Teenage Dream, Katy Perry 2010-2011 4 - Bee Gees/Yvonee Elliman — Saturday Night Fever 1977-1978 4 - Whitney Houston — Whitney 1987-1988 4 - George Michael — Faith 1987-1988 4 - Paula Abdul — Forever Your Girl 1989-1990 4 - Janet Jackson — Rhythm Nation 1814 1989-1991 4 - Mariah Carey — Mariah Carey 1990-1991 4 - Usher — Confessions 2004 expel the intruder
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Aug 20, 2011 9:57:59 GMT -5
Updated - Most #1's one album 5 - Michael Jackson — Bad 1987-1988 5 - Teenage Dream, Katy Perry 2010-2011 4 - Bee Gees/Yvonee Elliman — Saturday Night Fever 1977-1978 4 - Whitney Houston — Whitney 1987-1988 4 - George Michael — Faith 1987-1988 4 - Paula Abdul — Forever Your Girl 1989-1990 4 - Janet Jackson — Rhythm Nation 1814 1989-1991 4 - Mariah Carey — Mariah Carey 1990-1991 4 - Usher — Confessions 2004 expel the intruder Huh? Saturday Night Fever?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 10:01:29 GMT -5
Would that be the "intruder"?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 10:04:07 GMT -5
expel the intruder Huh? Saturday Night Fever? How Deep Is Your Love - Bee Gees Stayin Alive - Bee Gees Night Fever - Bee Gees If I Can't Have You - Yvonne Elliman
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dbhmr
Diamond Member
>
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Post by dbhmr on Aug 20, 2011 10:23:16 GMT -5
I also think critics do matter. You should always give something a listen and decide for yourself, but these are people who are generally more educated and experienced than your average person pulled from the street, and it's their job to listen to an album or song and respond objectively. Of course, it's still their own personal response, but trust me that they are very aware that people's opinion on their opinion depends almost entirely on whether that person agrees with their review or not. I have a feeling you'd be quicker to use critical reception as a plus for Katy's era had the response been positive. Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s. You're establishing a glaring contradiction: if the critics' opinions are no better than that of the general public, how is it elitism to use their opinion to back yours up, but not elitist to use a Pulse poll or sales (which more represents the "common person's" opinion)? If they're equal, surely they would carry the same weight and one would not, in fact, be more elitist than the other. I never said critics were the be all and end all--I just feel they have a justifiable place and voice in the industry. Period. And since I have yet to mention MJ, I'm not sure how you came up with that snappy little conclusion.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Aug 20, 2011 10:31:47 GMT -5
I also think critics do matter. You should always give something a listen and decide for yourself, but these are people who are generally more educated and experienced than your average person pulled from the street, and it's their job to listen to an album or song and respond objectively. Of course, it's still their own personal response, but trust me that they are very aware that people's opinion on their opinion depends almost entirely on whether that person agrees with their review or not. I have a feeling you'd be quicker to use critical reception as a plus for Katy's era had the response been positive. Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s.Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 10:41:54 GMT -5
I haven't read the whole discussion but I would use the word "subjective" rather than "objective" when making the comparisons.
because there are some Katy Perry fans out there that may think the 5 Katy Perry tracks are better
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Post by Peaches. [Ch, r. is] on Aug 20, 2011 10:53:13 GMT -5
Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s.Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits. I can. The 5 Bad #1s are pretty... bad.
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SPRΞΞ
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Post by SPRΞΞ on Aug 20, 2011 11:00:37 GMT -5
it's 100% subjective no matter how people wanna spins things.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Aug 20, 2011 11:04:56 GMT -5
Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits. I can. The 5 Bad #1s are pretty... bad. The Bad #1s are terrible. The only reason people would even say that Katy's #1s don't stack up to MJ is because he's MJ and not because of the music itself. The Bad #1s are really Bad. Against Katy's #1s they sound pretty stale....but I am biased because Ive never liked the Bad album.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 11:07:53 GMT -5
So we all have different opinions here. I personally liked the Bad #1's
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SPRΞΞ
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Post by SPRΞΞ on Aug 20, 2011 11:09:20 GMT -5
I can. The 5 Bad #1s are pretty... bad. The Bad #1s are terrible. The only reason people would even say that Katy's #1s don't stack up to MJ is because he's MJ and not because of the music itself. The Bad #1s are really Bad. Man In the Mirror isn't bad by any means. That songs beats all of Katys', I'll admit that. But "Bad" doesn't, and "Dirty Diana" CERTAINLY doesn't, subjectively speaking, of course. :)
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Aug 20, 2011 11:11:08 GMT -5
Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s. You're establishing a glaring contradiction: if the critics' opinions are no better than that of the general public, how is it elitism to use their opinion to back yours up, but not elitist to use a Pulse poll or sales (which more represents the "common person's" opinion)? If they're equal, surely they would carry the same weight and one would not, in fact, be more elitist than the other. I never said critics were the be all and end all--I just feel they have a justifiable place and voice in the industry. Period. And since I have yet to mention MJ, I'm not sure how you came up with that snappy little conclusion. I can agree with this somewhat. However, I think people put too much stock in critics opinions and then wonder why no one buys the music they are pushing. Then they flipantly say no one is buying music because all the music released is bad never mind the paradigm shifts in the industry and people's entertainment habits. The fact of the matter is that like anyone else they can be wrong but no one ever acknowledges that the critics were wrong. Plus they just had the album for a couple of days and/or weeks when they reviewed it. I know my opinion can vastly change over a six month period. I'm more inclined to like albums when an album first comes out and then sour on it 6 months later after it's had time to settle. I guess my only issue is that sales/airplay are a better indicator of what the public thinks is good than critics per se but I agree critics do have a place in the industry.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Aug 20, 2011 11:12:08 GMT -5
Huh? Saturday Night Fever? How Deep Is Your Love - Bee Gees Stayin Alive - Bee Gees Night Fever - Bee Gees If I Can't Have You - Yvonne Elliman I just wasn't sure if it was meant to be some sort of a joke or something more. I figured SNF is the only non-artist specific album in the list, I think, so unless the poster was trolling and meant Katy Perry didn't belong, I figured I'd give the benefit of the doubt first.
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kirby2725
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Post by kirby2725 on Aug 20, 2011 11:12:58 GMT -5
"The Way You Make Me Feel" > also.
I still can't believe "Smooth Criminal" wasn't a #1. By far the best track on the Bad album!!!
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SPRΞΞ
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Post by SPRΞΞ on Aug 20, 2011 11:12:59 GMT -5
You're establishing a glaring contradiction: if the critics' opinions are no better than that of the general public, how is it elitism to use their opinion to back yours up, but not elitist to use a Pulse poll or sales (which more represents the "common person's" opinion)? If they're equal, surely they would carry the same weight and one would not, in fact, be more elitist than the other. I never said critics were the be all and end all--I just feel they have a justifiable place and voice in the industry. Period. And since I have yet to mention MJ, I'm not sure how you came up with that snappy little conclusion. I can agree with this. However, I think people put too much stock in critics opinions and then wonder why no one buys the music they are pushing. The fact of the matter is that like anyone else they can be wrong but no one ever acknowledges that the critics were wrong. Plus they just had the album for a couple of days and/or weeks when they reviewed it. If I know myself my opinion can vastly change over a six month period. I'm more inclined to like albums when an album first comes out and then sour on it 6 months later after it's had time to settle. and on the flipside, sometimes albums and songs grow on you over time. They may not be instant the first time you hear them. How many times does a critic listen to an album before reviewing it? Once?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 11:16:15 GMT -5
5 - Michael Jackson — Bad 1987-1988 5 - Teenage Dream, Katy Perry 2010-2011 4 - Bee Gees/Yvonee Elliman — Saturday Night Fever 1977-1978 4 - Whitney Houston — Whitney 1987-1988 4 - George Michael — Faith 1987-1988 4 - Paula Abdul — Forever Your Girl 1989-1990 4 - Janet Jackson — Rhythm Nation 1814 1989-1991 4 - Mariah Carey — Mariah Carey 1990-1991 4 - Usher — Confessions 2004
Hmm, I'd personally rank these albums: Faith Rhythm Nation 1814 Teenage Dream Bad Whitney Confessions Saturday Night Fever Forever Your Girl Mariah Carey
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Aug 20, 2011 11:19:05 GMT -5
I can agree with this. However, I think people put too much stock in critics opinions and then wonder why no one buys the music they are pushing. The fact of the matter is that like anyone else they can be wrong but no one ever acknowledges that the critics were wrong. Plus they just had the album for a couple of days and/or weeks when they reviewed it. If I know myself my opinion can vastly change over a six month period. I'm more inclined to like albums when an album first comes out and then sour on it 6 months later after it's had time to settle. and on the flipside, sometimes albums and songs grow on you over time. They may not be instant the first time you hear them. How many times does a critic listen to an album before reviewing it? Once? That's an excellent point.
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Post by Peaches. [Ch, r. is] on Aug 20, 2011 11:22:10 GMT -5
Confessions Mariah Carey Teenage Dream Whitney Rhythm Nation 1814 Bad Haven't listened:Saturday Night Fever Forever Your Girl Faith I still can't believe "Smooth Criminal" wasn't a #1. By far the best track on the Bad album!!! Yessssssss! Teenage Dream ETMan in the Mirror The Way You Make Me feelFirework Last Friday NightI Just Can't Stop Loving You BadCalifornia GirlsDirty Diana
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Lozzy
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Post by Lozzy on Aug 20, 2011 11:25:18 GMT -5
I really don't like the Bad #1's much, lol. Bad (the song) is probably the best. Honestly, all of Katy's #1's > all of the Bad #1's though.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Aug 20, 2011 11:31:34 GMT -5
Comparing the MJ and KP singles, I think KP made more of a splash on the Hot 100 with her singles - even if you compare the different eras.
Let's see how MJ's singles stack up on the year-end Billboard Hot 100 tallies:
I Just Can't Stop Loving You - # 45 for the year (1987) Bad - # 59 WYMMF - #36 Man in Mirror - #21 Dirty Diana - #61
Versus:
California Gurls - #4 for the year (2010) Teenage Dream - #17
(Firework, ET and LFN will be available in early Dec, but based on their longevity - safe to assume, will fare better in the context of their own chart environment than MJ did)
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Aug 20, 2011 11:32:07 GMT -5
Eh, that is some elitism at the highest level. Face it, people who are using critics as an argument are just trying to validate their taste over other "people on the street's" tastes. Critics *have to* listen to and write about music, even if they love their jobs, at times it's something they wouldn't normally do, unlike music fans. Not to mention critics usually are the ones who can't stand to see someone being popular and successful for a long time so they love to bash artists for the sake of that. So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s.Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits. I have to agree with you. We can all like what we like, but do we really think that Katy's singles will be as memorable and looked upon as fondly in 20 years from now as "Man In The Mirror", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Bad" are looked upon? I think it's safe to say those three hits alone are more culturally significant than any of Katy's songs will ever be. And not that videos have to do with the Hot 100 but he videos for "Feel" and "Bad" pretty much trump Katy's entire output. Feel feel to correct me if I'm wrong 20 years from now lol And I actually love all of Katy's singles from this album (except "Tik Tok").
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Post by Peaches. [Ch, r. is] on Aug 20, 2011 11:34:46 GMT -5
Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits. I have to agree with you. We can all like what we like, but do we really think that Katy's singles will be as memorable and looked upon as fondly in 20 years from now as "Man In The Mirror", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Bad" are looked upon? I think it's safe to say those three hits alone are more culturally significant than any of Katy's songs will ever be. And not that videos have to do with the Hot 100 but he videos for "Feel" and "Bad" pretty much trump Katy's entire output. Feel feel to correct me if I'm wrong 20 years from now lol And I actually love all of Katy's singles from this album (except "Tik Tok"). No disrespect, but what does any of that have to do with "quality"? He's Michael Jackson, of course his songs will be more remembered. ...even if they are bad.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Aug 20, 2011 11:35:50 GMT -5
Yes, they are. Nobody with even an ounce of taste or core knowledge of music is going to say anything Katy has recorded can stack up against MJ's hits. I have to agree with you. We can all like what we like, but do we really think that Katy's singles will be as memorable and looked upon as fondly in 20 years from now as "Man In The Mirror", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Bad" are looked upon? I think it's safe to say those three hits alone are more culturally significant than any of Katy's songs will ever be. And not that videos have to do with the Hot 100 but he videos for "Feel" and "Bad" pretty much trump Katy's entire output. Feel feel to correct me if I'm wrong 20 years from now lol And I actually love all of Katy's singles from this album (except "Tik Tok"). #IJUSTCAN'T Back to the rest of the post... We don't know but being that more people know about MJ and so far he is far and away the bigger star... chances are more likely than not that Katy's #1s will not be as remembered.
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Aug 20, 2011 11:37:57 GMT -5
I have to agree with you. We can all like what we like, but do we really think that Katy's singles will be as memorable and looked upon as fondly in 20 years from now as "Man In The Mirror", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Bad" are looked upon? I think it's safe to say those three hits alone are more culturally significant than any of Katy's songs will ever be. And not that videos have to do with the Hot 100 but he videos for "Feel" and "Bad" pretty much trump Katy's entire output. Feel feel to correct me if I'm wrong 20 years from now lol And I actually love all of Katy's singles from this album (except "Tik Tok"). No disrespect, but what does any of that have to do with "quality"? He's Michael Jackson, of course his songs will be more remembered. ...even if they are bad. If that's the case then why aren't "I Just Can't Stop Loving you" and even "Dirty Diana" not remembered as much as the other songs from that album? No one even brings those songs up except when speaking of this chart record. If it is simply because it's Michael Jackson, then wouldn't all of his songs be just as memorable as those other ones?
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Post by Peaches. [Ch, r. is] on Aug 20, 2011 11:38:55 GMT -5
So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s. ia w/ this. Just like no one can "objectively" say Katy's 5 #1s are better than MJ's 5 #1s. Opinions can NEVER be objective. If it is simply because it's Michael Jackson, then wouldn't all of his songs be just as memorable as those? You honestly think quality is a factor in remembering songs? I remember the Macarena better than any Michael Jackson songs...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2011 11:40:22 GMT -5
The "memorable" argument is easy to say now since the Katy Perry songs are fresh and the "Bad" songs are 20+ years old.
I think it is safe to say that there are people on this board that haven't even listened to all 5 "Bad" songs or weren't even born yet when the album came out. What is "memorable" 20 years from now is just as subjective as the "which one is better?" question.
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Aug 20, 2011 11:42:34 GMT -5
The "memorable" argument is easy to say now since the Katy Perry songs are fresh and the "Bad" songs are 20+ years old. I think it is safe to say that there are people on this board that haven't even listened to all 5 "Bad" songs or weren't even born yet when the album came out. What is "memorable" 20 years from now is just as subjective as the "which one is better?" question. Like I said, correct me 20 years form now if I'm wrong. Who know. I could very well be. But yeah, I do see how it's similar to the 'better' question.
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Aug 20, 2011 11:44:41 GMT -5
So nope, MJ's 5 #1s are not "objectively" better than Katy's 5 #1s. An ia w/ this. Just like no one can "objectively" say Katy's 5 #1s are better than MJ's 5 #1s. Opinions can NEVER be objective. If it is simply because it's Michael Jackson, then wouldn't all of his songs be just as memorable as those? You honestly think quality is a factor in remembering songs? I remember the Macarena better than any Michael Jackson songs... Yes I do think that quality is a factor in remembering those songs, and I think they are remembered because of how good they are and not simply because MJ recorded them. But I see you're point, because that alone is an opinion lol. I guess just are all just opinions now matter how they are explained.
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