Is Hot AC becoming less necessary?

[atlantaboy]

Sorry to start this thread which will prob. be pretty controversial - but it seems like the only markets which need Hot AC's now are ones which really don't have mainstream CHRs (they have heavily rhythmic or completely rhythmic CHRs even if these CHRs are still labaled by Mediabase as "Pop") - most of these are very large markets

It seems like in more medium size markets (most recently the return of B94 to Pittsburgh), mainstream CHRs are now able to cover 80% of current HAC hits, while ACs (many of which no longer sound "lite" at all) are able to cover the hits from the 90s and 00s which HAC's would normally cover (Sugar Ray, Alanis, Smash Mouth, M20, Goo Goo Dolls, Hootie, some Dave Matthews, even Creed and older Nickelback, etc.)

I hate to say it (I guess it's both good and bad "news") but I really see a trend of Hot AC getting "squeezed" out by more mainstream CHRs and more aggressive-sounding ACs

The big exceptions seem to be
(1)the West Coast and upper Midwest, where CHRs tend to be
extremely rhythmic
(2)very small markets with older average populations (teen
pop's not as high)
(3)white-collar suburbs (of larger cities) that are large enough
to have their own Hot AC station

[Chase]

If Hot AC would fulfill its full potential as the mass-appeal format that CHR once was, it would be much more viable. When Hot AC stations increase their libraries by 200-300 more songs (and capitalize on their CHR roots) and really start to take off, a lot of PDs will be slapping their foreheads.

[Marv]

Chase---you nailed it; Hot AC's biggest problems stem from clusterization and corporate ownership.

It could become the mass-appeal powerhouse that CHR/Pop was throughout the seventies and eighties if it weren't the victim of being hamstrung by corporate-mandated straitjackets.

The format isn't going anywhere because they are ridiculously profitable (so-so ratings and all), and especially among the 'soccer moms' and baby-boomers out there who have tons of $$$$ to drive our economy, and tons of money to spend on leisure activities, second homes and the like.

It's just a matter of doubling or tripling the size of their 250-300 song libraries, playing TONS of CHR/Pop hits from the eighties which CHR/Pop stations can't touch and which aren't compatible on an oldies station, and the format would undoubtedly soar in terms of listeners and number of stations.

It has been squeezed for over a decade by CHR/Pop, Alternative, AC, Triple A, Classic Hits & Adult Hits (JACK-FM) formats, but it is far from being irrelevant and/or going out of existence.

The somewhat unexpected shift of AC stations leftward over the past 10-12 years is really surprising; the fact that 'Hey There Delilah' became the first song to go top five at AC and Alternative since 1995 ('Home' by the Goo Goo Dolls) is quite stunning, but more evidence as to how AC has drifted leftward, and squeezing Hot AC in the process.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

1995 ('Home' by the Goo Goo Dolls) is quite stunning, but more evidence as to how AC has drifted leftward, and squeezing Hot AC in the process.

Wait...think you combined "Name" by the Goo Goo Dolls with "Home" by Daughtry :)

[shocker]

atlantaboy said:

Sorry to start this thread which will prob. be pretty controversial - but it seems like the only markets which need Hot AC's now are ones which really don't have mainstream CHRs (they have heavily rhythmic or completely rhythmic CHRs even if these CHRs are still labaled by Mediabase as "Pop") - most of these are very large markets

Large markets need Hot ACs as a bridge or crossover point between the very slow, sleepy-sounding AC outlets, and the more teen-oriented CHRs.

You have a good point about large markets that have heavily rhythmic-leaning CHRs. I can't see Phoenix, Las Vegas, or Los Angeles being without a Hot AC because our CHRs are very rhythmic-leaning. However, I did tune in to Phoenix's Kiss-FM the other day and heard "Big Girls Don't Cry" and "Far Away" spun back-to-back. That was unusual considering Kiss-FM is heavily hip-hop oriented.

My question to you is -
Do you think these large markets with rhythmic-leaning CHRs need Hot ACs that are more modern-sounding? L.A. benefits by having KYSR, and Vegas is lucky to have KMXB - both very modern-sounding Hot ACs.

Phoenix, on the other hand, is stuck with Mix 96.9 - a somewhat more conservative Hot AC. I would really like to see Phoenix get a 2nd Hot AC that is modern-sounding like what we used to have a few years ago. It would make for some good competition against Mix; and possibly compete against our alternative and CHR stations as well.

[shocker]

marv said:

The format isn't going anywhere because they are ridiculously profitable (so-so ratings and all), and especially among the 'soccer moms' and baby-boomers out there who have tons of $$$$ to drive our economy, and tons of money to spend on leisure activities, second homes and the like.

I agree with you about Hot ACs appealing to the soccer-mom crowd; but baby-boomers are now middle-aged, and senior citizens. Most of them would much rather tune into an oldies, classic rock, or soft rock (regular AC) station than Hot AC.

Today's Hot AC format is geared more for the "Gen-Xers" - those of us who were born in the '60s and '70s, but grew up on mostly '80s and '90s music.

It's still a good escape for those of us who want to hear current music with no rap, along with a few '80s and '90s hits.

The Gen-X crowd is driving the economy because we are now the 30-somethings making the money just as the baby-boomers did in the '80s.

[atlantaboy]

shocker said:

atlantaboy said:

Sorry to start this thread which will prob. be pretty controversial - but it seems like the only markets which need Hot AC's now are ones which really don't have mainstream CHRs (they have heavily rhythmic or completely rhythmic CHRs even if these CHRs are still labaled by Mediabase as "Pop") - most of these are very large markets

My question to you is -
Do you think these large markets with rhythmic-leaning CHRs need Hot ACs that are more modern-sounding? L.A. benefits by having KYSR, and Vegas is lucky to have KMXB - both very modern-sounding Hot ACs.

I can't figure out for the life of me why Modern AC's are hugely successful in some makets but bomb in others...I have noticed that the markets with the highest rated Modern AC's (Reno, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Detroit) all have psuedo-rhythmic or rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but so does L. A. (KYSR has really low ratings), Phoenix (no Modern AC in years), San Francisco (no CHRs, but KLLC has very low ratings), San Diego (Sophie station has below 1.0 ratings), Washington D. C. (Z104 bombed with low ratings), and Philadelphia (has tried Modern AC a couple times and each time it failed)

I know that Modern ACs appeal to a wealthy white demographic, but surely L. A. and D. C. have this demo as well as Las Vegas and Salt Lake City...

In any case, Hot AC (including Modern AC) is def. "safe" in cities with rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but a majority of markets below rank #20 or so have more mainstream CHRs and its those markets where I think HAC's may start disappearing (people can listen to mainstream CHR for new Matchbox 20 and Lifehouse hits, and AC station for Sugar Ray, Smash Mouth, etc.)

Oh yeah...and Baby Boomers are def. listening to AC now instead of Hot AC - they stopped listening to Hot AC when they started playin Creed, Staind, and Nickelback in the early 00s - that's a huge reason IMO Hot AC ratings dropped from the later 90s to the early 00s (there's a huge # of Baby Boomers and not as many Generation X'ers)

[Marv]

You are correct; the song in question was indeed 'Name' by the Goo Goo Dolls.

My memory betrayed me again after reading that in this week's issue of R&R.

[musicfanpete]

atlantaboy said:

shocker said:

My question to you is -
Do you think these large markets with rhythmic-leaning CHRs need Hot ACs that are more modern-sounding? L.A. benefits by having KYSR, and Vegas is lucky to have KMXB - both very modern-sounding Hot ACs.

I can't figure out for the life of me why Modern AC's are hugely successful in some makets but bomb in others...I have noticed that the markets with the highest rated Modern AC's (Reno, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Detroit) all have psuedo-rhythmic or rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but so does L. A. (KYSR has really low ratings), Phoenix (no Modern AC in years), San Francisco (no CHRs, but KLLC has very low ratings), San Diego (Sophie station has below 1.0 ratings), Washington D. C. (Z104 bombed with low ratings), and Philadelphia (has tried Modern AC a couple times and each time it failed)

I know that Modern ACs appeal to a wealthy white demographic, but surely L. A. and D. C. have this demo as well as Las Vegas and Salt Lake City...

In any case, Hot AC (including Modern AC) is def. "safe" in cities with rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but a majority of markets below rank #20 or so have more mainstream CHRs and its those markets where I think HAC's may start disappearing (people can listen to mainstream CHR for new Matchbox 20 and Lifehouse hits, and AC station for Sugar Ray, Smash Mouth, etc.)

Oh yeah...and Baby Boomers are def. listening to AC now instead of Hot AC - they stopped listening to Hot AC when they started playin Creed, Staind, and Nickelback in the early 00s - that's a huge reason IMO Hot AC ratings dropped from the later 90s to the early 00s (there's a huge # of Baby Boomers and not as many Generation X'ers)

Just to clarify, WTMX in Chicago is now more of an Adult CHR/Hot AC, as they have added a lot of pop crossover songs within the last year or two. Also, Z-104 in Washington was more a victim of a bad signal than a station that never took off. I think if they had the luxury of the same signal that crosstown WRQX has, they would have given them a run for their money.

Now atlantaboy, I guess maybe your definition of a Modern AC is one that is very active on spins and very early on new music. If that's the case, then the Mix in Chicago would still qualify as a Modern AC as it's early on new music, and plays a lot of new music, much of it which is still very "alternative light" leaning anyway. But I'm just trying to clarify if Modern AC means heavy on new music or an alternative leaning Hot AC.

[shocker]

musicfanpete said:

But I'm just trying to clarify if Modern AC means heavy on new music or an alternative leaning Hot AC.

Both!

[Ragin]

I think right now HotAC seems a little redundant, but that's only because we are in a phase where they seem to be leading the charge towards hits right now. Once a new trend crops up in CHR/Pop, HotAC will be just as relevant as it ever was. I think right now, a lot of the HotAC staples aren't putting out music, so it's fairly indiscernable from Pop, but that will change.

However, I do think the largest recipe for success for HotAC is to have a variety playlist. One of the things that get people fed up with Pop is the 100 spins a song for the top10 and virtually never hearing anything else. HotAC needs to embrace a larger playlist again.

[atlantaboy]

musicfanpete said:

atlantaboy said:

I can't figure out for the life of me why Modern AC's are hugely successful in some makets but bomb in others...I have noticed that the markets with the highest rated Modern AC's (Reno, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Detroit) all have psuedo-rhythmic or rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but so does L. A. (KYSR has really low ratings), Phoenix (no Modern AC in years), San Francisco (no CHRs, but KLLC has very low ratings), San Diego (Sophie station has below 1.0 ratings), Washington D. C. (Z104 bombed with low ratings), and Philadelphia (has tried Modern AC a couple times and each time it failed)

I know that Modern ACs appeal to a wealthy white demographic, but surely L. A. and D. C. have this demo as well as Las Vegas and Salt Lake City...

In any case, Hot AC (including Modern AC) is def. "safe" in cities with rhythmic-leaning CHRs - but a majority of markets below rank #20 or so have more mainstream CHRs and its those markets where I think HAC's may start disappearing (people can listen to mainstream CHR for new Matchbox 20 and Lifehouse hits, and AC station for Sugar Ray, Smash Mouth, etc.)

Oh yeah...and Baby Boomers are def. listening to AC now instead of Hot AC - they stopped listening to Hot AC when they started playin Creed, Staind, and Nickelback in the early 00s - that's a huge reason IMO Hot AC ratings dropped from the later 90s to the early 00s (there's a huge # of Baby Boomers and not as many Generation X'ers)

Just to clarify, WTMX in Chicago is now more of an Adult CHR/Hot AC, as they have added a lot of pop crossover songs within the last year or two. Also, Z-104 in Washington was more a victim of a bad signal than a station that never took off. I think if they had the luxury of the same signal that crosstown WRQX has, they would have given them a run for their money.

Now atlantaboy, I guess maybe your definition of a Modern AC is one that is very active on spins and very early on new music. If that's the case, then the Mix in Chicago would still qualify as a Modern AC as it's early on new music, and plays a lot of new music, much of it which is still very "alternative light" leaning anyway. But I'm just trying to clarify if Modern AC means heavy on new music or an alternative leaning Hot AC.

Yeah WTMX prob. isn't the best example of a Modern AC - although KYSR/L. A. has been experimenting with pop/rhythmic songs also, prob. b/c both essentially have no CHR in their market (just a completely rhythmic "pseudo-CHR")

Z104 had a huge signal man...you could pick it up from just north of Richmond all the way up to Baltimore, and even over to West Virginia (on a simulcast frequency) - that def. wasn't the reason they "folded"...I think it is a good point though that unlike most other Modern ACs (that have high ratings), Z104 had to compete with a second Hot AC in its own market

[atlantaboy]

c670769 said:

I think right now HotAC seems a little redundant, but that's only because we are in a phase where they seem to be leading the charge towards hits right now. Once a new trend crops up in CHR/Pop, HotAC will be just as relevant as it ever was. I think right now, a lot of the HotAC staples aren't putting out music, so it's fairly indiscernable from Pop, but that will change.
\

Sorry man...really confused bout what ur sayin...I think what you mean (could be completely wrong) is that Hot AC is more necessary when CHRs are playin Eminem and 50 Cent constantly (like 2002-2005), and less necessary right now b/c CHRs are playin "Big Girls Don't Cry" "Who Knew" and "Bubbly" along with M20, Nickelback, and Lifehouse and the only thing that really separates CHRs from "Active" Hot ACs is Timbaland and Kanye

[Slinky]

atlantaboy said:

Z104 had a huge signal man...you could pick it up from just north of Richmond all the way up to Baltimore, and even over to West Virginia (on a simulcast frequency) - that def. wasn't the reason they "folded"...I think it is a good point though that unlike most other Modern ACs (that have high ratings), Z104 had to compete with a second Hot AC in its own market

Unlike most of the DC signals, 104.1's transmitter isn't inside the beltway. It's in Southern Maryland. Z104 had a great signal to the south and east due to their transmitter location, and a great signal to the north because of their 103.9 simulcaster. The problem is there's a big hole in the middle, where most of the population lives. Z104's signal in DC, especially in buildings, left a lot to be desired. Z104's signal in Montgomery County, MD and the fast-growing western suburbs of Virginia was also weak. Still came in fine in the car, but lost a lot of workplace listening to Mix 107.3 because it didn't penetrate office buildings well.

[Ragin]

slinky said:

atlantaboy said:

Z104 had a huge signal man...you could pick it up from just north of Richmond all the way up to Baltimore, and even over to West Virginia (on a simulcast frequency) - that def. wasn't the reason they "folded"...I think it is a good point though that unlike most other Modern ACs (that have high ratings), Z104 had to compete with a second Hot AC in its own market

Unlike most of the DC signals, 104.1's transmitter isn't inside the beltway. It's in Southern Maryland. Z104 had a great signal to the south and east due to their transmitter location, and a great signal to the north because of their 103.9 simulcaster. The problem is there's a big hole in the middle, where most of the population lives. Z104's signal in DC, especially in buildings, left a lot to be desired. Z104's signal in Montgomery County, MD and the fast-growing western suburbs of Virginia was also weak. Still came in fine in the car, but lost a lot of workplace listening to Mix 107.3 because it didn't penetrate office buildings well.

Yeah, I even took Z104 off my preset in the car because of that weak signal. I never could get it in decently. Although recently, and it had never happened before, I've noticed spots on the beltway where 107.3 doesn't come in all that great either.

[Ragin]

atlantaboy said:

c670769 said:

I think right now HotAC seems a little redundant, but that's only because we are in a phase where they seem to be leading the charge towards hits right now. Once a new trend crops up in CHR/Pop, HotAC will be just as relevant as it ever was. I think right now, a lot of the HotAC staples aren't putting out music, so it's fairly indiscernable from Pop, but that will change.
\

Sorry man...really confused bout what ur sayin...I think what you mean (could be completely wrong) is that Hot AC is more necessary when CHRs are playin Eminem and 50 Cent constantly (like 2002-2005), and less necessary right now b/c CHRs are playin "Big Girls Don't Cry" "Who Knew" and "Bubbly" along with M20, Nickelback, and Lifehouse and the only thing that really separates CHRs from "Active" Hot ACs is Timbaland and Kanye

You aren't confused at all, you nailed exactly what I was saying. As long as Pop is playing non-controversial generic, but reasonable quality music, HotAC gets marginalized because there isn't a lot separating them. Even HotACs are picking up Kanye and the like these days. I think the big problem is that HotAC stations got away from their MIX and tried to push their favorite songs like Pop stations do. And that has made them less popular in my opinion.

[atlantaboy]

c670769 said:

atlantaboy said:

Sorry man...really confused bout what ur sayin...I think what you mean (could be completely wrong) is that Hot AC is more necessary when CHRs are playin Eminem and 50 Cent constantly (like 2002-2005), and less necessary right now b/c CHRs are playin "Big Girls Don't Cry" "Who Knew" and "Bubbly" along with M20, Nickelback, and Lifehouse and the only thing that really separates CHRs from "Active" Hot ACs is Timbaland and Kanye

You aren't confused at all, you nailed exactly what I was saying. As long as Pop is playing non-controversial generic, but reasonable quality music, HotAC gets marginalized because there isn't a lot separating them. Even HotACs are picking up Kanye and the like these days. I think the big problem is that HotAC stations got away from their MIX and tried to push their favorite songs like Pop stations do. And that has made them less popular in my opinion.

Only thing is..."Hot AC" stations that really should be classified as CHR (IMO) like WKRQ and WZPL that are pushing the favorite pop songs are gettin really high ratings (for Hot AC stations)...while many of the "Mix"-type Hot AC stations aren't doin so well in their markets (some are, but many aren't)

Most of the highest-rated Hot AC stations (in medium-large markets) are rotating their top songs 50-70 times a week

[atlantaboy]

slinky said:

atlantaboy said:

Z104 had a huge signal man...you could pick it up from just north of Richmond all the way up to Baltimore, and even over to West Virginia (on a simulcast frequency) - that def. wasn't the reason they "folded"...I think it is a good point though that unlike most other Modern ACs (that have high ratings), Z104 had to compete with a second Hot AC in its own market

Unlike most of the DC signals, 104.1's transmitter isn't inside the beltway. It's in Southern Maryland. Z104 had a great signal to the south and east due to their transmitter location, and a great signal to the north because of their 103.9 simulcaster. The problem is there's a big hole in the middle, where most of the population lives. Z104's signal in DC, especially in buildings, left a lot to be desired. Z104's signal in Montgomery County, MD and the fast-growing western suburbs of Virginia was also weak. Still came in fine in the car, but lost a lot of workplace listening to Mix 107.3 because it didn't penetrate office buildings well.

Oh...whoops - in that case, good point!!! I prob. drove around DC so many times I never bothered to think what radio was like in the actual city!

[shocker]

atlantaboy said:

Only thing is..."Hot AC" stations that really should be classified as CHR (IMO) like WKRQ and WZPL that are pushing the favorite pop songs are gettin really high ratings (for Hot AC stations)...while many of the "Mix"-type Hot AC stations aren't doin so well in their markets (some are, but many aren't)

The "mix" stations usually don't rank in the top 5 in the Arbitrons, but they do well among a certain type of demographic - mainly women 25-44, and guys who want to hear a current mix of music without any (c)rap.

People in the Gen-X age group are more likely to tune into Hot AC because of the variety. CHR is highly teen and hip-hop oriented these days - no real variety like CHR used to be back in the day.

[atlantaboy]

shocker said:

atlantaboy said:

Only thing is..."Hot AC" stations that really should be classified as CHR (IMO) like WKRQ and WZPL that are pushing the favorite pop songs are gettin really high ratings (for Hot AC stations)...while many of the "Mix"-type Hot AC stations aren't doin so well in their markets (some are, but many aren't)

CHR is highly teen and hip-hop oriented these days - no real variety like CHR used to be back in the day.

That's not true!! That's what Clear Channel wants you to believe b/c they classify their rhythmic stations as CHR and mess up the charts!!

Anyhow problem is I think that teen hip-hop thing is mostly true in about 10 very large markets (L. A., San Diego, Detroit, Chicago, Philly, D. C., Phoenix, etc.) and in these markets Hot AC is really important

But with about 70% of the CHR stations now playin just as much pop/rock as teen/hip-hop, that's where the # of HAC stations I think is gonna dwindle

And there's also a lot of markets IMO like New York City where the very existence of the Hot AC station causes the CHR to leave HAC-type songs off their playlists...for example, if WPLJ ever were to fold (which wouldn't happen), Z100 would increase plays on songs like "First Time", "How Far We've Come", and "Bubbly"

That's not gonna happen in a huge market like NYC, but it's already happened in more medium-sized markets like Richmond

[Marv]

Hot AC stations will always be 'necessary' as long as rap music exists and as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to play it, and in some cases playing the biggest rap singles by the biggest rap artists anywhere from 90-125+ times per week.

Granted, there are only 15-20 stations which pound singles like that, but that's because CHR/Pop has been focused on the vast majority of listeners that are the target audience of their local CHR/Rhythmic and Urban competitors, which has NEVER made any sense to me.

So while those idiotic Hot AC programmers at stations such as WKRQ continue to bombard their 40+ year-old listeners with the likes of Kanye West & Timbaland for no intelligent reason, there are still tons of Hot AC stations out there which are executing the format properly, essentially having assumed the onetime CHR/Pop objective as the 'best-of-all-types-of-music-format) that CHR/Pop was until the early nineties.

Hot AC stations make too much money to be in danger of going away anytime soon.

The success of the JACK-FM format in many cities has taken a bite out of them, as well as the wider-than-ever variety in numerous AC stations (such as KOST and WLTW), and has undoubtedly shown that many Hot AC stations could easily double the size of their libraries to include many of the biggest CHR/Pop hits of the eighties which CHR/Pop stations can't play because they're playing 'Buy You A Drank' every 75 minutes.

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

Hot AC stations will always be 'necessary' as long as rap music exists and as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to play it, and in some cases playing the biggest rap singles by the biggest rap artists anywhere from 90-125+ times per week.

Granted, there are only 15-20 stations which pound singles like that, but that's because CHR/Pop has been focused on the vast majority of listeners that are the target audience of their local CHR/Rhythmic and Urban competitors, which has NEVER made any sense to me.

So while those idiotic Hot AC programmers at stations such as WKRQ continue to bombard their 40+ year-old listeners with the likes of Kanye West & Timbaland for no intelligent reason, there are still tons of Hot AC stations out there which are executing the format properly, essentially having assumed the onetime CHR/Pop objective as the 'best-of-all-types-of-music-format) that CHR/Pop was until the early nineties.

Hot AC stations make too much money to be in danger of going away anytime soon.

The success of the JACK-FM format in many cities has taken a bite out of them, as well as the wider-than-ever variety in numerous AC stations (such as KOST and WLTW), and has undoubtedly shown that many Hot AC stations could easily double the size of their libraries to include many of the biggest CHR/Pop hits of the eighties which CHR/Pop stations can't play because they're playing 'Buy You A Drank' every 75 minutes.

Marv - what do you think though about the hundreds of medium-smaller markets where their CHR (or one of their two CHRs) only plays a couple current rap hits mixed with Lifehouse, Nickelback, Colbie, Matchbox 20, Maroon 5, etc. and rotate their top hits only 50-70 times a week? It's in these markets I'm worried about Hot AC disappearing

[musicfanpete]

marv said:

Hot AC stations will always be 'necessary' as long as rap music exists and as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to play it, and in some cases playing the biggest rap singles by the biggest rap artists anywhere from 90-125+ times per week.

Granted, there are only 15-20 stations which pound singles like that, but that's because CHR/Pop has been focused on the vast majority of listeners that are the target audience of their local CHR/Rhythmic and Urban competitors, which has NEVER made any sense to me.

So while those idiotic Hot AC programmers at stations such as WKRQ continue to bombard their 40+ year-old listeners with the likes of Kanye West & Timbaland for no intelligent reason, there are still tons of Hot AC stations out there which are executing the format properly, essentially having assumed the onetime CHR/Pop objective as the 'best-of-all-types-of-music-format) that CHR/Pop was until the early nineties.

Aaah, but "Apologize" by Timbaland is tailor made for Hot AC stations. :) Just like "Big Girls Don't Cry" and "Who Knew" worked well for Hot AC as well.

But I know what you are saying. Playing three Timbaland songs 60 times a week each, with two of those not exactly a great fit for the Hot AC format on top of that is a recipe for disaster on these so-called Hot AC stations.

[atlantaboy]

musicfanpete said:

marv said:

Hot AC stations will always be 'necessary' as long as rap music exists and as long as CHR/Pop stations continue to play it, and in some cases playing the biggest rap singles by the biggest rap artists anywhere from 90-125+ times per week.

Granted, there are only 15-20 stations which pound singles like that, but that's because CHR/Pop has been focused on the vast majority of listeners that are the target audience of their local CHR/Rhythmic and Urban competitors, which has NEVER made any sense to me.

So while those idiotic Hot AC programmers at stations such as WKRQ continue to bombard their 40+ year-old listeners with the likes of Kanye West & Timbaland for no intelligent reason, there are still tons of Hot AC stations out there which are executing the format properly, essentially having assumed the onetime CHR/Pop objective as the 'best-of-all-types-of-music-format) that CHR/Pop was until the early nineties.

Aaah, but "Apologize" by Timbaland is tailor made for Hot AC stations. :) Just like "Big Girls Don't Cry" and "Who Knew" worked well for Hot AC as well.

But I know what you are saying. Playing three Timbaland songs 60 times a week each, with two of those not exactly a great fit for the Hot AC format on top of that is a recipe for disaster on these so-called Hot AC stations.

I really think you guys are thinkin about this backwards...

WKRQ/Cincinnati doesn't have any 40+ listeners (or I seriously doubt it) - they're basically a mislabelled CHR that's tryin to appeal to 18-35 demographic and that's why Timbaland is so successful on their station (and Kanye)

Plus, there is ANOTHER "Mix" Hot AC station in Cincinnati which is prob. gettin the 25-55 demographic anyway

The only mistake they're makin IMO is not reclassifying themselves as CHR/Pop and I think it might have somethin to do with still wanting to add Hot AC-only tracks like "Her Eyes" when they go for HAC adds...

[shocker]

atlantaboy said:

shocker said:

CHR is highly teen and hip-hop oriented these days - no real variety like CHR used to be back in the day.

That's not true!! That's what Clear Channel wants you to believe b/c they classify their rhythmic stations as CHR and mess up the charts!!

Yeah, many of the large markets' CHR stations are heavily rhythmic. That's what I meant. Still, it proves my point that CHR in general is hip-hop-leaning and teen-oriented because a good share of the so-called CHRs are located in larger markets.

Anyhow problem is I think that teen hip-hop thing is mostly true in about 10 very large markets (L. A., San Diego, Detroit, Chicago, Philly, D. C., Phoenix, etc.) and in these markets Hot AC is really important

That's right. If Hot AC was removed from areas like L.A., Phoenix, or Vegas, that would alienate a large share of people - mainly 30-somethings - who are a major contributor to the economy. In other words, the advertisers who target Hot AC would also be alienated.

Hot AC may not be tops in the ratings, but it's a big money-maker due to its target audience. Dropping Hot AC from large markets, or even many mid-sized or small markets, would be a huge, stupid mistake!

But with about 70% of the CHR stations now playin just as much pop/rock as teen/hip-hop, that's where the # of HAC stations I think is gonna dwindle

But that same 70% of CHR stations also spin (c)rap that most of us 30 and 40-somethings don't want to hear! It's not even light or "safe" rap that is spun, but more controversial rappers like 50 Cent and Huey. That's an instant turn-off for most fans of Matchbox Twenty, Goo Goo Dolls, Maroon5, and John Mayer.

[Marv]

Atlantaboy---I don't really think that you have to worry about Hot AC stations disappearing from markets where the local Top 40 station plays a small amount of rap music; those two stations will undoubtedly have much different presentations as it relates to the chatter of the jocks, the music, the age of the music, and concert promotions.

They will undoubtedly have very strong morning shows, a must for success in most formats.

Hot AC stations simply make too much money to be tossed overboard; they can certainly be reinvented (a la My104.3FM/LA) and become more disciplined in the music they play, as KBIG certainly has out here.

I do wish that Hot AC stations weren't so handicapped by being part of a cluster and therefore unable to be really adventurous and wide-ranging by incorporating tons of the biggest Top 40 hits of the eighties into their libraries; of course, there are several formats which have been hurt a lot by clusterization, and Hot AC is certainly one of them.

I don't know how many CHR/Pop stations out there play anything that's more than a decade old these days, but there is certainly plenty of room for their Hot AC sister station to play tons of music that is more than a decade old, if clusterization didn't exist, regardless of market size.

A CHR/Pop station today COULD conceivably play some of those huge singles from 8-10 years ago such as 'One Headlight' or '3AM', but I don't know if that's even possible these days due to clusterization and the 'superserving your niche' mentality at today's corporate-dominated radio.

[atlantaboy]

(Sorry I keep messin up when I try to quote responses with quotes in them)

I wanted to address Shocker here...

I'd say that a majority of the CHRs that play balanced playlists (1/2 pop/rock, 1/2 pop/R&B) do not play a lot of 50 Cent, and most didn't touch Huey or Hurricane Chris, etc. - also, many of these CHRs only play "Crank That" etc. during the evenings

If you look at most mass-appeal CHRs (on yes.com), they look pretty similar to HAC's during the daytime hours - they do play more rap and T-Pain etc. at night, but that's when the people in their late 30s and 40s (in general) are watchin prime time TV

[atlantaboy]

marv said:

A CHR/Pop station today COULD conceivably play some of those huge singles from 8-10 years ago such as 'One Headlight' or '3AM', but I don't know if that's even possible these days due to clusterization and the 'superserving your niche' mentality at today's corporate-dominated radio.

The things is...more and more CHRs are now playin these songs (now that a lot of markets don't have HACs) - Q100/ATL (which plays Kanye, T-Pain, etc.) plays "3am", "Iris", "Crash Into Me" and "Slide" all the time, even with Star 94 playin them, and AC now covers songs like "One Headlight"

I agree though that HAC's in huge markets aren't goin anywhere cause they bring in so much $$$ and cause lots of them have CHRs which are really not CHRs (L. A., Detroit, Chicago, Phoenix, San Diego, etc.)

Hope you're right about HACs not disappearin in markets where CHRs play a small amount of rap music - I've just seen too many examples of that happening (Richmond, Greensboro, Raleigh, Charlotte's HAC is basically all "talk", Providence's HAC is really an AC, even WPLJ gettin ratings below 2.0 really worries me cause Z100 is becomin more and more balanced musically)

[Marv]

Top 40 radio would be far more 'adult-friendly' if the playlists were softened to attract more female listeners, as longtime CHR/Pop powerhouse KRBE/Houston has done, with their 'powers' being aired no more than 65 times per week.

I'm also not too thrilled that both 'Don't Stop The Music' & 'With You' debuted on R&R's Hot AC chart this week; those two songs have no business being on any station aimed at 25-54 or 30+ year old listeners.

Of course, everytime I hear the excruciatingly horrible 'SOS' by Rhianna on My104.3 FM (KBIG), I just change the station, and the same goes for other equally out-of-place tunes such as 'The Way You Move'.

2008 has the potential to be an exceptional year for Hot AC, thanks to very strong singles from the likes of OneRepublic, Alicia Keys, Fergie, Taylor Swift, & Carrie Underwood, alongside the format's stars such as John Mayer, Sheryl Crow, Avril Lavigne, Daughtry, Rob Thomas and all the rest.

An immediate and substantial increase in library size would also be a slam dunk and a major boost for the format, especially when many of those potential library additions were enormous at both Top 40 & AC throughout the eighties.

[atlantaboy]

Mar 15, 2008 10:37:28 GMT -5 Marv said:

I'm also not too thrilled that both 'Don't Stop The Music' & 'With You' debuted on R&R's Hot AC chart this week; those two songs have no business being on any station aimed at 25-54 or 30+ year old listeners.

Stations that play these songs should be on the CHR panel IMO...they're probably serving as mainstream CHRs for their markets, and appealing to listeners under 35

There's still that ridiculous double-standard that you HAVE to play rap to be considered CHR (and more than just Kanye I guess), but you can completely leave out rock and still be a CHR reporter