jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 22, 2014 21:52:25 GMT -5
It's not a "usual attempt" to discredit anyone. I'm sure you are aware that some have said she invented "hip-pop," or whatever- I'm just reiterating that that's not the case. I'm wondering how you define "hip-pop." Well, that's good to know. At any rate, those were just pop songs with tacked-on raps. I give Mariah credit for adding a hip-hop *production* style to pop music. I think that was a bigger deal than just having a rapper do the third verse. Yeah, the point runs a lot deeper than having a pop artist add a rapper to a pop songs. It's about combining pop melodies with more urban production and even rap vocals (via singer and guest artist) to create a hybrid of styles. It's also about Mariah being fully committed to it and not just doing it for a few songs. And along with all of that, it's also about the image Mariah had before uniting with ODB. Mariah was a pop princess with a "clean image." For her to get with one of the dirtiest rappers out there and actually get teen girls listening to ODB was a shocker. She risked alienating her audience, and in fact she did lose a lot of her audience for a bit. By the time TEOM came out, music had caught up to her and had one of her biggest albums ever. Let's remember that by the late 90s and especially into the first half of the 00s that pop(ular) music was basically urban music. There were plenty of times that the top 10 songs on the Hot 100 were all rap and R&B songs. Even this year you had pop artist Katy Perry having a massive hit with "Dark Horse," a song with an urban beat and a guest rapper. You can trace that back to Mariah. You also had songs where the singer delivered a vocal in a more rhythmic style like a rapper as opposed to broader melodies of traditional pop singing. You can trace that back to Mariah, too, on songs like "Breakdown," "Did I Do That," etc.
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WotUNeed
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Post by WotUNeed on Sept 22, 2014 22:29:12 GMT -5
I'm not claiming to know how it actually went down, because I don't follow Mariah Carey's career closely or claim to be an expert on the evolution of hip-hop, but, with the RaRHoF, influence is judged by voter perception, and, as a rock fan who tends to read the music publications that (at least seem to) closely align with voter perceptions, I can say that the rift we're dealing with isn't whether or not Mariah Carey and hip-hop's mainstream evolution connect, but whether Mariah Carey was instrumental in bringing hip-hop to the mainstream, or whether hip-hop was inevitably rising and Mariah Carey happened to be one of the mainstream artists who capitalized on that. The latter perception (be it accurate or not) is the one that I encounter most outside of Pulse, which is why I don't see the hip-hop connection making Carey an instant RaRHoF nominee despite the fact that many hip-hop pioneers have been and will continue to be inducted. That perception may change in the future, but, at this moment in time, I think Carey is more viewed as the artist who happened to capitalize on an inevitable trend as opposed to the innovator who made it happen.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 23, 2014 17:24:01 GMT -5
Trust me, Mariah will not have an easy road to a nomination. I'm not saying she's not worthy, I'm just basing my comment on what history has shown about the Nomination Committee.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Sept 24, 2014 14:37:41 GMT -5
I'm not claiming to know how it actually went down, because I don't follow Mariah Carey's career closely or claim to be an expert on the evolution of hip-hop, but, with the RaRHoF, influence is judged by voter perception, and, as a rock fan who tends to read the music publications that (at least seem to) closely align with voter perceptions, I can say that the rift we're dealing with isn't whether or not Mariah Carey and hip-hop's mainstream evolution connect, but whether Mariah Carey was instrumental in bringing hip-hop to the mainstream, or whether hip-hop was inevitably rising and Mariah Carey happened to be one of the mainstream artists who capitalized on that. The latter perception (be it accurate or not) is the one that I encounter most outside of Pulse, which is why I don't see the hip-hop connection making Carey an instant RaRHoF nominee despite the fact that many hip-hop pioneers have been and will continue to be inducted. That perception may change in the future, but, at this moment in time, I think Carey is more viewed as the artist who happened to capitalize on an inevitable trend as opposed to the innovator who made it happen. Mariah certainly didn't invent the collaboration, but plenty of music industry folks have given her credit for popularizing it. And again, I think it needs to be stated that it's about more than just having a rapper do a verse on the song. It's about the hybridization of pop and urban music (i.e. pop melodies with urban beats, a "Cinderella pop star" with a "grimy rapper"). Both Jermaine Dupri and Puff Daddy expressed they were initially reluctant to work with Mariah because of her white pop image (i.e. it worked both ways; Mariah broke ground within hip-hop, too). Some quotes: - Joe Levy of Rolling Stone said Mariah made it "de rigueur" - Lisa Lopes of TLC telling MTV Mariah exposed people to something they hadn't seen and that she's responsible for "hip-pop" - John Norris of MTV credited Mariah with popularizing the pop/hip-hop collaboration - Danyel Smith of Entertainment Weekly wrote that Mariah "set a new standard for unifying hip-hop and R&B" - Toni Braxton has said Mariah "really pioneered" the collaboration - Amy Linden wrote for People that Mariah's "pop/R&B stylings set the diva standard" - Sasha Frere-Jones of The New Yorker saying Mariah exposed people who avoided hip-hop to that music and mentioned you then had Missy Elliott and others putting pop melodies on their urban beats and pop acts like Britney Spears and N Sync putting urban beats on their pop songs Beyond all of that, we also know from Irv Gotti that Tommy Mottola heard Mariah's "If We" with Ja Rule (which was more of an actual duet between singer and rapper) and had Jennifer Lopez record "I'm Real" with him in a similar style. Because of the delays with Glitter, "I'm Real" hit first and was obviously a huge hit and affected music for a few years. So, a direct example of Mariah impacting music.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Sept 24, 2014 18:28:52 GMT -5
Mariah will become eligible in 2015.
We should hopefully get the nominations by early October.
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onebuffalo
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Post by onebuffalo on Oct 6, 2014 13:27:43 GMT -5
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Oct 8, 2014 9:47:01 GMT -5
^ Doubtful....but who knows?
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Oct 8, 2014 11:54:13 GMT -5
Chic had 4 top ten pop hits, although just "Le Freak" and, particularly, "Good Times" had enough impact to merit their inclusion. "Rapper's Delight" was built on that song. "Another One Bites The Dust". "Get Lucky". Plus Nile Rodgers' work with Madonna, Diana Ross (which in turn gave us "Mo Money Mo Problems", Debbie Harry, Duran Duran. If it was just about the number of hits the Buffalo Springfield, Bill Haley, Cat Stevens, and Nirvana wouldn't be inducted…Chic's lasting influence has earned them a spot.
EDIT: Aaaaand the comment I was responding to was deleted.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Oct 8, 2014 14:58:16 GMT -5
Rumor has it we'll be getting the nominations tomorrow morning.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Oct 9, 2014 5:38:50 GMT -5
Your 2015 nominees:
Green Day Nine Inch Nails N.W.A. The Smiths Lou Reed Sting Kraftwerk Chic Joan Jett & The Black Hearts The Marvelettes Paul Butterfield Blues Band The Spinners Stevie Ray Vaughn War Bill Withers
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on Oct 9, 2014 8:22:43 GMT -5
Your 2015 nominees: Green Day Nine Inch Nails N.W.A. The Smiths Lou Reed Sting Kraftwerk Chic Joan Jett & The Black Hearts The Marvelettes Paul Butterfield Blues Band The Spinners Stevie Ray Vaughn War Bill Withers I think that's a solid group of nominees, though I can't say that I know the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. And when I say "solid" I mean respectable, but some of these aren't Hall worthy to me.
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Oct 9, 2014 8:27:39 GMT -5
I said this last year too I think when they showed up on the list. Putting the Blackhearts in before the Runaways is baffling
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Oct 9, 2014 8:29:34 GMT -5
Green Day, Lou Reed, and Sting are locks. Perhaps War and Bill Withers just because. Want Chic, Kraftwerk, NIN, and Joan Jett to be inducted but I doubt it. They're far more partial to male rock and soul than they are to any dance / electronic and female led music.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 9, 2014 11:10:25 GMT -5
Here are the nominees, listed in order of years of eligibility (highest to lowest):
* The Paul Butterfield Blues Band: 27th year of eligibility; fourth nomination * Kraftwerk: 20th year of eligibility; third nomination * The Marvelettes: 19th year of eligibility; second nomination * The Spinners: 19th year of eligibility; second nomination * War: 19th year of eligibility; third nomination * Bill Withers : 19th year of eligibility; first nomination * Lou Reed: 18th year of eligibility; third nomination * Chic: 13th year of eligibility; ninth nomination * Joan Jett & the Blackhearts: 10th year of eligibility; third nomination * Sting: Eighth year of eligibility; first nomination * The Smiths: Seventh year of eligibility; first nomination * Stevie Ray Vaughan: Seventh year of eligibility; first nomination * N.W.A: Third year of eligibility; third nomination * Green Day: First year of eligibility * Nine Inch Nails: First year of eligibility
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imbondz
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Post by imbondz on Oct 9, 2014 12:28:37 GMT -5
those are just the nominees tho right? when do they announce the actual HoF'ers?
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 9, 2014 14:47:14 GMT -5
^Usually in December.
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Green Baron
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Post by Green Baron on Oct 9, 2014 16:03:58 GMT -5
Green Day, Lou Reed, and Sting are locks. Perhaps War and Bill Withers just because. Want Chic, Kraftwerk, NIN, and Joan Jett to be inducted but I doubt it. They're far more partial to male rock and soul than they are to any dance / electronic and female led music. Nine Inch Nails GOT nominated on their first year possible, that's an accomplishment. If they don't make it in, it'll be a sham. Also still no Pixies?
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imbondz
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Post by imbondz on Oct 9, 2014 18:11:44 GMT -5
Green Day, Lou Reed, and Sting are locks. Perhaps War and Bill Withers just because. Want Chic, Kraftwerk, NIN, and Joan Jett to be inducted but I doubt it. They're far more partial to male rock and soul than they are to any dance / electronic and female led music. Nine Inch Nails GOT nominated on their first year possible, that's an accomplishment. If they don't make it in, it'll be a sham. Also still no Pixies? Why does NIN or Green Day deserve in? I'd like to hear peoples opinions here. It can't be because you like them otherwise Huey Lewis would be in for me. lol. I don't think NIN or Green Day deserves, but if I had to choose between the two NIN. And I used to be a huuuuge NIN fan. Listened to Downward Spiral and PHM nonstop back in the day.
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Green Baron
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Post by Green Baron on Oct 9, 2014 18:14:06 GMT -5
Nine Inch Nails GOT nominated on their first year possible, that's an accomplishment. If they don't make it in, it'll be a sham. Also still no Pixies? Why does NIN or Green Day deserve in? I'd like to hear peoples opinions here. It can't be because you like them otherwise Huey Lewis would be in for me. lol. I don't think NIN or Green Day deserves, but if I had to choose between the two NIN. And I used to be a huuuuge NIN fan. Listened to Downward Spiral and PHM nonstop back in the day. because Trent pretty much brought Industrial music to the forefront, influencing many acts and also making some great music as well?
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Green Baron
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Post by Green Baron on Oct 9, 2014 18:17:08 GMT -5
And smh and Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree snub.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 9, 2014 21:38:17 GMT -5
Green Day has two pretty revered albums, and the band was influential in its sound. Could be a first-year-eligible inductee.
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Verisimilitude
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Post by Verisimilitude on Oct 9, 2014 21:42:19 GMT -5
Green Day has two pretty revered albums, and the band was influential in its sound. Could be a first-year-eligible inductee. If Nirvana could get in, so can Green Day. Nirvana got in because people love "Nevermind" to death. Nirvana may also have "In Utero" & "MTV Unplugged", but Green Day's longevity has been just as consistent.
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Green Baron
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Post by Green Baron on Oct 9, 2014 21:43:13 GMT -5
Green Day has two pretty revered albums, and the band was influential in its sound. Could be a first-year-eligible inductee. Same can be said for Nine Inch Nails.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 10, 2014 7:36:23 GMT -5
^Yes- both bands are pretty evenly matched in regard to reverence. Green Day's had more commercial success, but that's here nor there. I wonder, though, if voters will put in two first-year-eligible acts.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Oct 10, 2014 8:44:48 GMT -5
Trent Reznor is certainly red hot, and there's all kinds of buzz surrounding the Nine Inch Nails nomination. I agree with HolidayGuy - it'll be interesting to see if two first year eligibles can make the cut.
I'd say NWA is a shoo-in since there's no other rap competition on the ballot. (secretly bummed that Eric B & Rakim were snubbed. could care less about LL Cool J, since he was nominated twice and didn't make it)
And no Janet again. Definitely not a surprise, but the #InductJanet movement marches on. :)
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imbondz
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Post by imbondz on Oct 10, 2014 12:20:06 GMT -5
Green Day has two pretty revered albums, and the band was influential in its sound. Could be a first-year-eligible inductee. they were influential in pop punk music? nothing they've done is original.
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renfield75
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Post by renfield75 on Oct 10, 2014 13:26:53 GMT -5
Green Day has two pretty revered albums, and the band was influential in its sound. Could be a first-year-eligible inductee. they were influential in pop punk music? nothing they've done is original. Nirvana didn't do anything original either, the lifted from punk and Kurt Cobain admitted "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was just his take on the riff from Boston's "More Than A Feeling". Green Day represented to their generation what the Ramones represented to theirs. They're critically respited with an enduring fan base the straddles both Gen X and Millenials. They deserve their spot.
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Glove Slap
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Post by Glove Slap on Oct 11, 2014 14:24:30 GMT -5
I also would have liked to see Eric B & Rakim get a consideration, but NWA is definitely the sore thumb from who hasn't been inducted from rap yet. I'm surprised to see NIN there out of the box, but very happy. I'm actually curious in the nomination potential of Ice Cube and Dr. Dre when they become eligible very soon. Ice Cube's work from the early 90s is critically acclaimed, and Dr. Dre's success and impact is well documented.
I'm a bit bummed that Reznor might get in before Depeche Mode, without whom there would have been no NIN, but he is very well respected within the industry on his own accord.
Green Day's expected. My stomach still remembers churning at their geezer pandering in the mid-late 00s, but I'll be damned if they didn't do it well. And to say that they weren't influential is a lie. They broke open another part of the alternative scene, there would have been no acts like Blink 182 (even Avril Lavigne in a sense too) and the sorts without them. People definitely followed in their footsteps.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2014 15:16:38 GMT -5
I hope Chic gets it this time... 9th nomination, wow! And Green Day <3
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Oct 11, 2014 17:42:23 GMT -5
I'd think this will be Chic's year. Only Solomon Burke had more nominations before induction (10).
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