Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 9, 2018 21:38:05 GMT -5
So even If the town tracker picks the right player to track - Watch-Immune Mafia Goon and this player do nothing on this particular night he will come as innocent (didn't do nothing in the night time) even if he is indeed mafia. Correct. However, the Tracker isn't a Town Cop who can definitively separate people into Innocent/Guilty regardless of who they track. Let's say that B is the Town Tracker, who targets Z and sees that Z targeted someone during the night. Z, in turn, targeted Q during the night. If Q dies, then the likelihood of Z being the Watcher-Immune Mafia Goon goes up dramatically. HOWEVER: It is not impossible that in fact Z is the Town Watcher, and someone else (who we'll call X) also targeted Q and killed Q. This is inherently problematic, because if Z gets lynched and then flips Town Watcher, then 1) Town has just lost their Watcher, 2) This lynch doesn't immediately identify who killed Q. (Town's immediate priority should then be to look at Z's lynch wagon, however - how did each remaining player respond to Z's lynch wagon? Were they a part of it? Against it? How forceful was their stance(s)? How passive?) Town Watcher - he can watch any player in the game (even one of the mafia guys - not that this would benefit town in any way) Unless someone is confirmed scum - example: Town Tracker tracks the WIMG who kills someone during the night - we really have no basis for the Watcher's watching information (I.E. who the Watcher watched during the night) being beneficial to Town or not beneficial to Town, I would think. I don't see how saying that a Watcher watching a scum player would not be beneficial to Town is at all useful, because how in the heck is the Watcher supposed to know that they are in fact watching a scum player? The one thing that I'm a little confused about is if town tracker pick town watcher to track will town tracker get the information that town watcher did something at night? If this is the case that Town tracker not only can make a type 2 error but can also make type 1 error. LOL, what does this even mean? Type 2 error versus type 1 error. But yes, a Town Tracker who tracks the Town Watcher - assuming the Watcher does something in the night - will get information that the Watcher did something. They won't be told specifically that it was the Town Watcher, but: Let's say B Tracks Z, who is watching Q. B will see that Z targeted Q. If Q doesn't die, then B will be able to deduce that Z is the Town Watcher - the Tracker should realize that the Watcher is the only other player who can target someone at night and not kill their target. And vice-versa, actually: If B watches Z, who is tracked by Q. If Z doesn't die, then B will be able to deduce that Q is the Town Tracker.
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Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 9, 2018 21:38:41 GMT -5
For 2, things become more complicated, but bear with me. Let me provide a hypothetical example: Night 1: Person A is watcher and finds innocent from Person B Person C is tracker and finds no activity from Person D. From this one night, we can conclude that Person D can't have been the watch-immune mafia, if he performed the kill. Uhhh...Town can't conclude anything from this example. The Tracker can only conclude that their result SAYS Person D didn't do anything during the night. If Person D is scum and either his partner performed the kill or D is the Tracker-Immune, then the Tracker will still get a result that D didn't do anything during the night. How, exactly, is Person C the Tracker supposed to know if D is the Tracker-Immune who performs a kill? And I'm not sure how Person A, the Watcher, is supposed to deduce innocence based on watching Person B? There's only two specific ways this would work: 1) B dies during the night, which isn't exactly helpful because, well, B died. 2) B is the Tracker, who tracked someone and the someone didn't die during the night. The Watcher can't really exonerate someone at all. They can only conclude that no one (else) targeted Person B during the night, which isn't exactly difficult to have happen between only three roles that can target people during the night - Tracker, Watcher, night-killing scum - and scum's own immunities. I'm not going to invest beyond Night 1 in this part of your example because 1) Your Night 1 reasoning is flawed, IMO and 2) The whole thing relies on way too specific a sequence of events to base any long-term thinking on.
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Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 9, 2018 21:40:10 GMT -5
The Watcher can't really exonerate someone at all. They can only conclude that no one (else) targeted Person B during the night, which isn't exactly difficult to have happen between only three roles that can target people during the night - Tracker, Watcher, night-killing scum - and scum's own immunities.Disregard.
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Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 9, 2018 21:40:54 GMT -5
So because town tracker will know who did mafia watcher-immune visited (It will be the same person who died) there is no way that he would confuse mafia watcher-immune and town-watcher. This is not 100% guaranteed; see my above example. I will concede that the example I give is one that would have to line up exactly so, but it's not impossible. Accordingly, your examples 1-2-3 that you give in the post that this quote comes from are all predicated on the Watcher being told that only one person visited whomever they watched during the night. If they're told that two people visited, then obviously, the person they were watching will have died; it's not possible for the Watcher to watch someone and for two other people to target that same someone and for that someone to live through it all. The Watcher will then know that one of the two must be the killer - but it's a 50/50 guess as to which one. Cynthia's scenario #2 also warrants keeping in mind, as well. Unless if it's possible that both mafia player visit someone at night and only one do the killing and the other one do nothing (he just appeared as he was visiting someone). It this case things get even more complicated but I'm not sure if this is even possible. LOL, it's not. Only the scum player doing the killing can "visit".
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Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 9, 2018 21:42:20 GMT -5
(If you're the watcher in particular and you accidentally discover the tracker, read back over the tracker's posts as that person will have likely lowkey cleared a person or two. The tracker should be breadcrumbing in case of death.) The inherent problem with this idea is that the Tracker cannot technically "clear" anyone except for recognizing who the Town Watcher must be based on the actions lining up exactly so, as you described in your #3 prior to what I've just quoted*. The Tracker can still get a result that says their target didn't visit anyone...BUT it is possible that their target is in fact the Tracker-Immune Mafia Goon who also killed someone during the night. There's obviously no way for the Tracker to know that right away, but the Tracker should not rule out this possibility until after the TIMG has been lynched. *I probably also said the same thing somewhere in my posting spree, LOL.
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BackwoodsBarbie
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Post by BackwoodsBarbie on Jan 10, 2018 1:27:47 GMT -5
I’m here guys! Don’t really have much to say because this set up is so different from the other one I’ve done. I agree that claiming will be useless here and will end up with you being either killed or lynched by default. It will be so easy for the mafia to hide this game I think. Also, it will be extremely difficult for a mafia to be lynched unless by chance without one of the cops being killed. I understand that I’m not really adding any ideas to the game, I’m just going over it in my mind, plus I have to post here so the mods don’t think I’m inactive. I really don't like this post. You are not beneficial to town in any way if you say that you have nothing to say and the only reason for you to post is the fact that mod won't think that you are inactive. But the attitude like that is beneficial to scums because they will hidde easily if no one does anything and we all just wait. This "easy set up" is actualy not that easy to understand and I think it would be benificial to town if you tell us your opinion on the whole set up and what other players said before. The second thing (the bolded part) Why would person who claimed their role be lynched? Unless you are thinking that it's a bad thing for a scum to claim their role? Because this sentence makes no sense if you are a town player, it's like you are trying to warn scum that claiming his role will get him lynched. Vote: greentoo
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greentoo
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Post by greentoo on Jan 10, 2018 2:55:09 GMT -5
No one really comes across as scum to me yet except maybe Backwoods Barbie. The way they just came straight onto me looking for someone to point to was a bit weird. Everyone has raised good ideas about the game so far.
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surfy
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Post by surfy on Jan 10, 2018 3:27:11 GMT -5
No one really comes across as scum to me yet except maybe Backwoods Barbie. The way they just came straight onto me looking for someone to point to was a bit weird. Everyone has raised good ideas about the game so far. This is all we have to go off of so far - so beginning justifications tend to be on a loose hunch - that's how it goes. Other than his suspicion of you, is there any other reason you've singled out BackwoodsBarbie for your scum list?
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Sambalada
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Post by Sambalada on Jan 10, 2018 4:39:16 GMT -5
No one really comes across as scum to me yet except maybe Backwoods Barbie. The way they just came straight onto me looking for someone to point to was a bit weird. Everyone has raised good ideas about the game so far. Is it a shade directed to me or am I reading too much to it? Anyway, this setup is so much more complicated than the regular one. The tracker, whoever it is, needs to think the way a mafia would. They have to position themselves in a mafia point-of-view to get any useful infos at all. Okay, and what, NO DOCTORS?!?
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Mylo13 💜
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Post by Mylo13 💜 on Jan 10, 2018 5:43:47 GMT -5
Okay back for a bit. Just going to read through all of this.
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greentoo
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Post by greentoo on Jan 10, 2018 6:03:38 GMT -5
I never said this set up was easy. I said it’s easy for the mafia to hide. And no it wasn’t shade towards you Sam.
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Mylo13 💜
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Post by Mylo13 💜 on Jan 10, 2018 6:33:39 GMT -5
I really can't find anyone suspicious yet, but I will try to actually believe in my decisions more than my first game.
The fact that there's no doctor also kind of makes being an accepting 'town' figure kind of dangerous. There is always the watcher, but they have far more chance of missing it than correctly getting the killer. Especially now that I realise that trackers and watchers also show up in scans.
Also, Coco kinda needs to read the rules lol. He edited post #19, which breaks rule #3. It wasn't a post necessarily about Mafia, but still. Rules are rules, even to Coco :sip2:
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Albie
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Post by Albie on Jan 10, 2018 9:30:10 GMT -5
Ok I just reread these 2 pages about 10 times and I think it finally sunk in that there is no Cop role and therefore no result that can automatically clear a player. I kept looking at the town power roles, the tracker in particular, as some sort of cop but taking myself out of that head space really helps to understand this set up better. Libra's recent barrage of posts really helped too. Its going to be tough. I've not played a game like this before but its clear that starting off we have to get really lucky in order to hit those magical scenarios that would tell anything at all to the watcher and tracker. For that reason, I agree with Cynthia that the watcher and tracker need to pay particular attention to everyone's posts and the ties between them. We should always be playing as close attention as possible but this is especially important in the case of this game. Especially because we do only have two town power roles and with no doctor role, this is not the game to out our power roles That being said, its quite a burden for two players to carry and I'm trying to wrap my head around what we should to help them narrow things down a bit. I guess I'm thinking back to recent games and how we've tried to strategize around who does what at night but I have no idea what that strategy could look like. And, as previously mentioned, daytime activity is probably the best thing they have to go off of in order to use their power roles as effectively as possible. I think I've said a whole lot of nothing only to say that I am not sure how best to support our town power roles with any sort of plan. Also, surfy Barbie is female. No one really comes across as scum to me yet except maybe Backwoods Barbie. The way they just came straight onto me looking for someone to point to was a bit weird. Everyone has raised good ideas about the game so far. Is it a shade directed to me or am I reading too much to it? Anyway, this setup is so much more complicated than the regular one. The tracker, whoever it is, needs to think the way a mafia would. They have to position themselves in a mafia point-of-view to get any useful infos at all.Okay, and what, NO DOCTORS?!? Sam, can you explain what you mean by this? I don't think I'm following as to why its important for the tracker to think like mafia would. If you mean so that the tracker can track the same target as mafia, I don't think that be the most helpful. What would be helpful is if the tracker targets Watcher-Immune mafia goon, sees they targeted someone and that someone turns up dead. And, again, this is going to be a very difficult thing to get right. If I'm misunderstanding your post please let me know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 10:02:34 GMT -5
I really can't find anyone suspicious yet, but I will try to actually believe in my decisions more than my first game. The fact that there's no doctor also kind of makes being an accepting 'town' figure kind of dangerous. There is always the watcher, but they have far more chance of missing it than correctly getting the killer. Especially now that I realise that trackers and watchers also show up in scans. Also, Coco kinda needs to read the rules lol. He edited post #19, which breaks rule #3. It wasn't a post necessarily about Mafia, but still. Rules are rules, even to Coco :sip2: Nah i knew that rule girl, just a force of habit
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 10:46:18 GMT -5
No one really comes across as scum to me yet except maybe Backwoods Barbie. The way they just came straight onto me looking for someone to point to was a bit weird. Everyone has raised good ideas about the game so far. Is it a shade directed to me or am I reading too much to it? Anyway, this setup is so much more complicated than the regular one. The tracker, whoever it is, needs to think the way a mafia would. They have to position themselves in a mafia point-of-view to get any useful infos at all. Okay, and what, NO DOCTORS?!? i think what is important is as the game moves into more serious if someone has that power or ability is to kinda watch what is happening, how votes are going and then kinda make a gut call on who to track. I havent played in ages has there been doctors? i can only think of 1 game i played in that was the case ( i could be wrong tho)
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Albie
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Post by Albie on Jan 10, 2018 10:52:53 GMT -5
Coco, yes, in the latest iterations of the game in recent months there have been doctors and protector roles. The newbies have mostly played with these sort of roles in game, but I'll admit I even got used to the games going that way. I forgot how many different formats to this there can be.
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Libra
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Post by Libra on Jan 10, 2018 12:32:32 GMT -5
I think I've said a whole lot of nothing only to say that I am not sure how best to support our town power roles with any sort of plan. Cynthia referred to breadcrumbing in her post on the previous page...that is something that should probably be employed here. For those who have no idea just what the hell breadcrumbing is, read this: wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=BreadcrumbThis said, we don't exactly have an extensive history of making use of breadcrumbing in Pulse Mafia games - but, this game is a fine opportunity to learn how to do it and do it right. I don't think we should lay out too specific a plan of support, lest we give scum a heads-up that they can ruin us with. But merely suggesting the use of breadcrumbing also isn't that specific of a road map, because it comes down to how people lay the crumbs down. (Suggesting how to lay the crumbs down, on the other hand, seems like it would be too specific.) Similarly, I agree with Coco above that our Town powers should use their best judgment - make "gut" calls on who to track - and act accordingly. That's more or less common sense in terms of how to use those roles most effectively, but with no other powers to support the two it places a premium on getting one's instincts right.
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Albie
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Post by Albie on Jan 10, 2018 12:57:34 GMT -5
I'm also just realizing this is a much smaller game in number of players than I've played, with the exception of Tutorial Mafia.
So, the importance of participation is even higher this time around. However, for being halfway through Day 1, I am finding that everyone has already chimed in at least once and RVS wasn't much of a thing.
@moderator:[b/] can we get a vote count please?
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Albie
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Post by Albie on Jan 10, 2018 13:00:08 GMT -5
Oop formatting error...cannot edit. Will combust.
Let me just retype it so at least it looks right somewhere and I don't drive myself crazy.
@moderator: can we get a vote count please?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 13:25:58 GMT -5
#mod: I can make one happen in about an hour or so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 15:08:38 GMT -5
It is now Day 1. Deadline has been set for 01/12/2018 at 11:59 PM EST
Day 1 Vote Count (001): It takes 5/9 Votes to lynch!
BackwoodsBarbie [1]: Surf Cynthia [1]: Albie greentoo [1]: BackwoodsBarbie Libra [1]: Coco Milo [2]: Milo, Cynthia Sam [1]: Libra
Not Voting: greentoo, Sam
#mod: this vote count was compiled on mobile. Please notify me if there are any errors. Another vote count will be provided at approximately 9:00 PM EST.
Edited for formatting.
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Sambalada
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Post by Sambalada on Jan 10, 2018 15:16:52 GMT -5
Oops didn't realize I haven't voted.
Vote: greentoo just to get him to vote too.
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Sambalada
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Post by Sambalada on Jan 10, 2018 15:21:33 GMT -5
Is it a shade directed to me or am I reading too much to it? Anyway, this setup is so much more complicated than the regular one. The tracker, whoever it is, needs to think the way a mafia would. They have to position themselves in a mafia point-of-view to get any useful infos at all.Okay, and what, NO DOCTORS?!? Sam, can you explain what you mean by this? I don't think I'm following as to why its important for the tracker to think like mafia would. If you mean so that the tracker can track the same target as mafia, I don't think that be the most helpful. What would be helpful is if the tracker targets Watcher-Immune mafia goon, sees they targeted someone and that someone turns up dead. And, again, this is going to be a very difficult thing to get right. If I'm misunderstanding your post please let me know. Okay I seem to have mixed up this watcher-tracker thing already, lol.
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greentoo
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Post by greentoo on Jan 10, 2018 15:52:25 GMT -5
Vote: Sambalada just because there’s nothing else to go off.
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surfy
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Post by surfy on Jan 10, 2018 17:11:40 GMT -5
@moderator: I am also on mobile at the moment, but it appears that BackwoodsBabie’s vote is currently on greentoo and not me.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong and missed the post!
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surfy
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Post by surfy on Jan 10, 2018 17:12:12 GMT -5
Also greentoo - your formatting for your vote is off; try holding it to make it official
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 18:08:10 GMT -5
@moderator: I am also on mobile at the moment, but it appears that BackwoodsBabie’s vote is currently on greentoo and not me. Someone correct me if I’m wrong and missed the post! #mod: you’re not understanding the format. The bold is who is being voted for. What you are referring to is your vote for BackwoodsBarbie. Her vote for greentoo is documented above under his name.
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surfy
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Post by surfy on Jan 10, 2018 18:54:35 GMT -5
@moderator: I am also on mobile at the moment, but it appears that BackwoodsBabie’s vote is currently on greentoo and not me. Someone correct me if I’m wrong and missed the post! #mod: you’re not understanding the format. The bold is who is being voted for. What you are referring to is your vote for BackwoodsBarbie. Her vote for greentoo is documented above under his name.ohhhh okay thank you! 😂
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 19:30:52 GMT -5
That Subtle read :kii: he said ", WHAT YOUre not understanding IS" yasss
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 19:36:16 GMT -5
Okay girls we are in a weirdo stage of not RSVP and nothing substantive. I'm lacking motivation because this game is so boring y'all hoes including myself are fucking boring. I need us including myself to bring our A game soon cause nobody is giving it to me the way I want it so far.
I feel like a fat girl looking for a cookie but running around finding crumbs.
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