Billboard Hot 100: 5/12/18

[crazyb]

It feels like every week the hot 100 threads get longer lol

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 0:09:33 GMT -5 crazyb said:

It feels like every week the hot 100 threads get longer lol

Well, we're living in shocking and exciting times. A lot to discuss. 

[Dylan :)]

Apr 30, 2018 23:58:51 GMT -5 iHype. said:

Apr 30, 2018 23:14:07 GMT -5 Au$tin said:

Regardless of whether it's a breach of privacy or not (it's not), that would still be a very hard stat for Billboard to keep track of, let alone force the streaming services to even report. It's impractical.

Not to mention all of the complications that come with it. What about people that only save six or seven track off of the album and listen to them? They're not listening to the full album, they're skipping around and picking their favorites. Therefore the songs are being successful, not the album. Or when people listen to several tracks from the album over a lengthy period. Like they might listen to the full album over the course of a week, but there were other tracks played in between. Or even a day! Say I listened to six Post tracks within an hour, but I played 9 other songs in a random order around them. Does that count as an album or individual tracks? Suddenly now they would need to track the order in which you played the songs. It's just too much information to sift through for everyone involved. Too complicated for charting purposes.

And it was a proposed idea, nothing final. I think theoretically if someone listened to 5+ tracks from a project in a single tracking week, whether simultaneously at once, through different days, etc they were consuming the project in its own merit throughout the week. If you watch a movie in 3 parts throughout the week or all at once, you were still consuming the movie in itself overall, rather than the individual parts. 

Wouldn't streaming driven singles (such as Psycho) then collapse on the week of the album release as their streams no longer chart? And if you say "singles wouldn't count", read further up this thread about the difficulty in defining singles

These album bombs are annoying and I agree that it is stupid that songs that are clearly only listened to as part of the album are charting high (like if So It Goes went top 20 based on Reputation's sales), however until streaming catches on for genres other than hip-hop/urban, this likely isn't going to change. One way I could see Billboard fixing it is by getting Spotify to introduce a "play album" feature. I am not really familiar with Spotify but if they could make it where when you click on an album, rather than show a list of the tracks which you then have to click to play, have it so a button pops up saying "play album". Spotify can leave their chart as normal (random album track is still top ten), however for the purpose of Billboard those streams would go towards Billboard 200 and not the Hot 100. This would go for any album, old or new. Streams of individual songs would only count if they have been listened to by specifically clicking on them/having them play in a playlist

[renaboss]

I'll admit I haven't read up much of what's been discussed so far, I spent all day yesterday out and came home to find pages and pages of discussion on the current chart rules, which was a tad overwhelming so I gave it the "too long, didn't read" treatment.

That being said, I really don't understand the difficulty in distinguishing singles from album tracks, especially with input from the labels. Could someone please provide me with a summary (maybe bullet points) of the hardships? Thanks in advance, sorry for the trouble.

[Golden Bluebird]

kworb.net/airadio/

*** = Dropped or added a format

Overall AI (Top 20) - 2018/05/02
1. (=) BEBE REXHA - Meant To Be f/F.G.L. (191.096) (-1.705)
2. (=) ZEDD/MAREN MORRIS/GREY - The Middle (171.460) (+0.786)
3. (=) DRAKE - God's Plan (166.917) (-0.687)
4. (=) CAMILA CABELLO - Never Be The Same (145.308) (+0.939)
5. (=) THE WEEKND & KENDRICK LAMAR - Pray For Me (116.524) (-0.126)
6. (=) ED SHEERAN - Perfect (114.079) (-0.771)
7. (=) IMAGINE DRAGONS - Whatever It Takes (113.276) (+0.505)
8. (=) BRUNO MARS & CARDI B - Finesse (104.422) (-3.674)
9. (=) DUA LIPA - New Rules (95.940) (-0.502)
10. (=) MAX - Lights Down Low (86.873) (-0.543)
11. (=) MAROON 5 - Wait (85.247) (+1.543)
12. (=) POST MALONE - Psycho f/Ty Dolla $ign (82.229) (+0.457)
13. (=) BLOCBOY JB - Look Alive f/Drake (78.877) (+0.893)
14. (=) JASON ALDEAN - You Make It Easy (77.014) (+0.069)
15. (+1) BAZZI - Mine (76.662) (+1.248)
16. (-1) CAMILA CABELLO - Havana f/Young Thug (75.474) (-0.506)
17. (=) DRAKE - Nice For What (75.376) (+1.943)
18. (=) SHAWN MENDES - In My Blood (73.432) (+0.451)
19. (=) PORTUGAL. THE MAN - Feel It Still (69.891) (+0.051)
20. (=) KANE BROWN - Heaven (68.038) (+0.528)

Outside the Top 20:
37. (+2) ARIANA GRANDE - No Tears Left To Cry (45.534) (+2.636)
60. (+4) CARDI B - Be Careful (30.731) (+1.639)
67. (+6) DUA LIPA - IDGAF (28.750) (+1.472) ***

[filthy]

Why won't pop radio acknowledge J. Cole?

[annoymous1]

It is safe to say NBTS will be Number 1 on radio eventually . MTB has peaked on radio and The Middle might catch up to MTB and be number 1 soon but I dont see it being number for that long .

[Dylan :)]

May 2, 2018 8:22:46 GMT -5 filthy said:

Why won't pop radio acknowledge J. Cole?

Is it pop music?

[Gary]

In that sense "pop" = "popular"

What is pop music changes over time.

[Baby Yoda Hot100Fan]

^NBTS is not closing the gap with The Middle quickly enough in overall airplay, so while it will probably be #1 in pop radio next week, the only way I see for it to be #1 is if The Middle peaks before MtB drops below the latter. Even if that happens, NBTS would still need at least 2 weeks to surpass both of them to get to #1. So that's a lot of ifs ... not impossible, but unlikely at this point.

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 3:41:17 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

Apr 30, 2018 23:58:51 GMT -5 iHype. said:

And it was a proposed idea, nothing final. I think theoretically if someone listened to 5+ tracks from a project in a single tracking week, whether simultaneously at once, through different days, etc they were consuming the project in its own merit throughout the week. If you watch a movie in 3 parts throughout the week or all at once, you were still consuming the movie in itself overall, rather than the individual parts. 

until streaming catches on for genres other than hip-hop/urban, this likely isn't going to change

Why would non-urban artists getting big on streaming stop the existing popular urban artists from doing well the week that their albums drop?

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 8:22:46 GMT -5 filthy said:

Why won't pop radio acknowledge J. Cole?

Probably because their audience doesn't acknowledge him.

[rfucom]

May 2, 2018 9:13:00 GMT -5 Sherane Lamar said:

May 2, 2018 8:22:46 GMT -5 filthy said:

Why won't pop radio acknowledge J. Cole?

Probably because their audience doesn't acknowledge him.

Alot of new breed rappers are in.

[Keelzit]

Apr 30, 2018 21:24:31 GMT -5 allow that said:

I’m a fan of J. Cole and don’t mind Post, but this current chart methodology sucks. Like, people aren’t playing a damn interlude as a stand-alone track to warrant it being the #47 song in the country. It’s all just passive streaming from listening to the album. I mean it’s an instant blockbuster album and streaming is massive, so I get it, but it begs for a true singles chart that indicates the most popular official singles in the country, plain and simple.

What if an intro got 200 million streams though and ended up being the biggest song of the week? Why should that not be acknowledged? Plus, back when digital sales were massive you'd see several Taylor Swift songs invade the Hot 100 the week her album dropped. Of course paying for a digital download is different than 'passive' streaming but just like in the 2nd scenario, Taylor's album tracks left the Hot 100 in about 2-3 weeks too.

The bottom line is that if certain songs are meant to be 'hits' then they will no matter what. A month of having album tracks on the Hot 100 won't prevent anyone else's song from succeeding as there really is no difference between peaking at #45 instead of #30 because of a popular artist's album drop. Same goes for the upper regions of the chart. If you go outside and ask 'do you know that X song?' people will give you the same answer no matter if you asked them the week it was blocked from the top 40/20/10/5/#1 or the one after where it finally reached said threshold mainly because of other songs declining.

[forg]

I like discussion on the Hot 100 threads lately as there's actual discourse and not focused on let's say fan wars or "my music taste is better than yours"

[jebsib]

Why did Pop Radio not acknowledge Master P?
Or Led Zeppelin?

At this juncture, CHR audiences don't want to hear J. Cole

[fridayteenage]

Is non-pop radio even playing any J Cole songs right now?

[velaxti]

Pop radio surely played Work Out a lot. But J Cole's music has gotten less commercial since then.

His song Deja Vu could have got played on pop radio, but considering they wouldn't even play Bryson Tiller - Exchange there was no hope for Deja Vu.

[Deleted]

Streaming seems to be the only factor that significantly contributes to music lately. It is the right move moving forward, even though it harms my faves. Streaming represents real people picking what they want to hear instead of being fed a playlist someone came up with on a radio station due to deals (or payola).

[jebsib]

There are countless studies and demographical breakdowns of radio listeners.
Are there any stats on who is streaming the most?
We all assume - I think correctly - that it is young people - but is ANYONE over the age of say, 40, streaming?

Is there an income restriction element to the paid streaming?
I include teens that may not have a credit card to subscribe..
Then we get into is this really representing an even playing field.

[Gary]

Mom and Dad probably bought the subscription
It is clear by all the rap at the top that the demographics skew younger but then they always have...kids dictate what is popular since there are more of them that "consume" music regularly.

Older listeners who were "programmed" to buy the music probably still do.

[Keelzit]

May 2, 2018 13:09:08 GMT -5 Gary said:

Mom and Dad probably bought the subscription
It is clear by all the rap at the top that the demographics skew younger but then they always have...kids dictate what is popular since there are more of them that "consume" music regularly.

Older listeners who were "programmed" to buy the music probably still do.

Exactly. Why should 100k adults' and middle-agers' (with jobs and money to buy more stuff in general) consumption be taken as a more serious receipt about what's popular (popular being the key word here, not 'best' or 'of higher intellectuality') than 1 million kids' and students' inexpensive streaming activity?

[85la]

May 2, 2018 3:41:17 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

Apr 30, 2018 23:58:51 GMT -5 iHype. said:

And it was a proposed idea, nothing final. I think theoretically if someone listened to 5+ tracks from a project in a single tracking week, whether simultaneously at once, through different days, etc they were consuming the project in its own merit throughout the week. If you watch a movie in 3 parts throughout the week or all at once, you were still consuming the movie in itself overall, rather than the individual parts. 

Wouldn't streaming driven singles (such as Psycho) then collapse on the week of the album release as their streams no longer chart? And if you say "singles wouldn't count", read further up this thread about the difficulty in defining singles

These album bombs are annoying and I agree that it is stupid that songs that are clearly only listened to as part of the album are charting high (like if So It Goes went top 20 based on Reputation's sales), however until streaming catches on for genres other than hip-hop/urban, this likely isn't going to change. One way I could see Billboard fixing it is by getting Spotify to introduce a "play album" feature. I am not really familiar with Spotify but if they could make it where when you click on an album, rather than show a list of the tracks which you then have to click to play, have it so a button pops up saying "play album". Spotify can leave their chart as normal (random album track is still top ten), however for the purpose of Billboard those streams would go towards Billboard 200 and not the Hot 100. This would go for any album, old or new. Streams of individual songs would only count if they have been listened to by specifically clicking on them/having them play in a playlist

This is a good idea, and Spotify already does have this feature.

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 3:41:17 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

Apr 30, 2018 23:58:51 GMT -5 iHype. said:

And it was a proposed idea, nothing final. I think theoretically if someone listened to 5+ tracks from a project in a single tracking week, whether simultaneously at once, through different days, etc they were consuming the project in its own merit throughout the week. If you watch a movie in 3 parts throughout the week or all at once, you were still consuming the movie in itself overall, rather than the individual parts. 

Wouldn't streaming driven singles (such as Psycho) then collapse on the week of the album release as their streams no longer chart? And if you say "singles wouldn't count", read further up this thread about the difficulty in defining singles

These album bombs are annoying and I agree that it is stupid that songs that are clearly only listened to as part of the album are charting high (like if So It Goes went top 20 based on Reputation's sales), however until streaming catches on for genres other than hip-hop/urban, this likely isn't going to change. One way I could see Billboard fixing it is by getting Spotify to introduce a "play album" feature. I am not really familiar with Spotify but if they could make it where when you click on an album, rather than show a list of the tracks which you then have to click to play, have it so a button pops up saying "play album". Spotify can leave their chart as normal (random album track is still top ten), however for the purpose of Billboard those streams would go towards Billboard 200 and not the Hot 100. This would go for any album, old or new. Streams of individual songs would only count if they have been listened to by specifically clicking on them/having them play in a playlist

This is a bad idea because it would make the Hot 100 less accurate and ignore a big percentage of streams. Songs that are clearly more popular and more listened to than others would end up in positions lower than what their popularity warrants. 

An album is a type of playlist. There is no difference. Remember that "More Life" is actually a "playlist" not an album. 

[Dylan :)]

May 2, 2018 14:42:29 GMT -5 Sherane Lamar said:

May 2, 2018 3:41:17 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

Wouldn't streaming driven singles (such as Psycho) then collapse on the week of the album release as their streams no longer chart? And if you say "singles wouldn't count", read further up this thread about the difficulty in defining singles

These album bombs are annoying and I agree that it is stupid that songs that are clearly only listened to as part of the album are charting high (like if So It Goes went top 20 based on Reputation's sales), however until streaming catches on for genres other than hip-hop/urban, this likely isn't going to change. One way I could see Billboard fixing it is by getting Spotify to introduce a "play album" feature. I am not really familiar with Spotify but if they could make it where when you click on an album, rather than show a list of the tracks which you then have to click to play, have it so a button pops up saying "play album". Spotify can leave their chart as normal (random album track is still top ten), however for the purpose of Billboard those streams would go towards Billboard 200 and not the Hot 100. This would go for any album, old or new. Streams of individual songs would only count if they have been listened to by specifically clicking on them/having them play in a playlist

This is a bad idea because it would make the Hot 100 less accurate and ignore a big percentage of streams. Songs that are clearly more popular and more listened to than others would end up in positions lower than what their popularity warrants.

An album is a type of playlist. There is no difference. Remember that "More Life" is actually a "playlist" not an album. 

The assumption my idea makes, plus others here, is that these songs aren't popular for the song. With my idea, the only way to listen to an album as an actual album and in full without having to do anything extra is by clicking the play album button. Those streaming points then go towards the album and the Billboard 200, not the individual songs and the Hot 100. Points would go towards the Hot 100 when people actually click on songs, whether by searching it, seeing it on a chart, a playlist, etc. Also, I'm assuming "playlists" that are basically albums are in fact albums. I feel I am explaining this terribly so I will try to make an example.

> Open Spotify
> Search "Reputation Taylor Swift"
> *Reputation album at the top of the list*
> Click Reputation, a pop up button comes up saying "play album"
> The album plays with the tracklist visible so that the listener can flick through songs, however regardless of what they do in that window/minimized window, everything counts as an album play
> All these streams go towards the Billboard 200

> Open Spotify
> Search "Look What You Made Me Do"
> Click Look What You Made Me Do like normal
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Goes to a random playlist, sees End Game and clicks
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Sees Reputation, clicks, "play album"
> If clicked, plays go towards the Billboard 200

You could argue what if people skip songs on the album. Well I think that that still counts as an album play. People can do the exact same when they buy it. You could also say what if people listen to Reputation just for Look What You Made Me Do. Well, they would actually be listening to the album. And this isn't a flawless system anyway

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 15:31:56 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

May 2, 2018 14:42:29 GMT -5 Sherane Lamar said:

This is a bad idea because it would make the Hot 100 less accurate and ignore a big percentage of streams. Songs that are clearly more popular and more listened to than others would end up in positions lower than what their popularity warrants.

An album is a type of playlist. There is no difference. Remember that "More Life" is actually a "playlist" not an album. 

The assumption my idea makes, plus others here, is that these songs aren't popular for the song. With my idea, the only way to listen to an album as an actual album and in full without having to do anything extra is by clicking the play album button. Those streaming points then go towards the album and the Billboard 200, not the individual songs and the Hot 100. Points would go towards the Hot 100 when people actually click on songs, whether by searching it, seeing it on a chart, a playlist, etc. Also, I'm assuming "playlists" that are basically albums are in fact albums. I feel I am explaining this terribly so I will try to make an example.

> Open Spotify
> Search "Reputation Taylor Swift"
> *Reputation album at the top of the list*
> Click Reputation, a pop up button comes up saying "play album"
> The album plays with the tracklist visible so that the listener can flick through songs, however regardless of what they do in that window/minimized window, everything counts as an album play
> All these streams go towards the Billboard 200

> Open Spotify
> Search "Look What You Made Me Do"
> Click Look What You Made Me Do like normal
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Goes to a random playlist, sees End Game and clicks
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Sees Reputation, clicks, "play album"
> If clicked, plays go towards the Billboard 200

You could argue what if people skip songs on the album. Well I think that that still counts as an album play. People can do the exact same when they buy it. You could also say what if people listen to Reputation just for Look What You Made Me Do. Well, they would actually be listening to the album. And this isn't a flawless system anyway

But it seems like the only thing that would do is ignore a huge portion of the listening public. All because they clicked one button instead of the other. They're listening to the exact same set of songs, just pushing a different button. 

And all for what? So that song B can be counted ahead of song A on the Hot 100, even though song A is more popular?  

Also, many singles are labeled as albums on Spotify. Chun-Li, for example, is labeled as an album. Despite that "album" containing only one song. And what about "Scary Hours"? Should "God's Plan" have been punished for every time a person went on to listen to "Diplomatic Immunity" afterwards?


these songs aren't popular for the song

I don't feel like this concept has any actual meaning to it. Songs are popular because people listen to them. A song like "Intro" is as popular as it is on Spotify because users chose to listen to it 6.5 million times last week. If they didn't want to listen to it... they wouldn't have clicked on it. They weren't suckered into it. They weren't tricked. It's not like it's a U2 song sneaking onto a person's iPod or something. 

[Dylan :)]

May 2, 2018 15:56:36 GMT -5 Sherane Lamar said:

May 2, 2018 15:31:56 GMT -5 Dylan :) said:

The assumption my idea makes, plus others here, is that these songs aren't popular for the song. With my idea, the only way to listen to an album as an actual album and in full without having to do anything extra is by clicking the play album button. Those streaming points then go towards the album and the Billboard 200, not the individual songs and the Hot 100. Points would go towards the Hot 100 when people actually click on songs, whether by searching it, seeing it on a chart, a playlist, etc. Also, I'm assuming "playlists" that are basically albums are in fact albums. I feel I am explaining this terribly so I will try to make an example.

> Open Spotify
> Search "Reputation Taylor Swift"
> *Reputation album at the top of the list*
> Click Reputation, a pop up button comes up saying "play album"
> The album plays with the tracklist visible so that the listener can flick through songs, however regardless of what they do in that window/minimized window, everything counts as an album play
> All these streams go towards the Billboard 200

> Open Spotify
> Search "Look What You Made Me Do"
> Click Look What You Made Me Do like normal
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Goes to a random playlist, sees End Game and clicks
> Points go towards the Hot 100
> Sees Reputation, clicks, "play album"
> If clicked, plays go towards the Billboard 200

You could argue what if people skip songs on the album. Well I think that that still counts as an album play. People can do the exact same when they buy it. You could also say what if people listen to Reputation just for Look What You Made Me Do. Well, they would actually be listening to the album. And this isn't a flawless system anyway

But it seems like the only thing that would do is ignore a huge portion of the listening public. All because they clicked one button instead of the other. They're listening to the exact same set of songs, just pushing a different button. 

And all for what? So that song B can be counted ahead of song A on the Hot 100, even though song A is more popular?]

Exactly. Because they’re listening to an album, so it should count towards the chart for albums, the Billboard 200. If you buy an album on iTunes, each purchase doesn’t count towards each song on the Hot 100, it counts as an album overall. That is the problem I am trying to fix. Listening to full albums on Spotify which then boost each song in ways that don’t happen when buying it, and in my opinion, shouldn’t. As for the rest of your comment, I have an exam in the morning so I need to go to sleep. I will try to read and reply to it tomorrow (if a reply is still neccesary then) :)

[Au$tin]

This is more relates to the album chart rather than Hot 100, but I really wish album length was taken into account for album units. Migos and now Post Malone are clearly releasing super long albums to boost album sales.

It should really be something like number of total streams the tracks from each album received divided by number of tracks on the album and THAT number should be what is used to determine sales, not just a straight total.

So something like this: (note these numbers are pulled entirely out of thin air)

5000000 streams / 10 tracks = 500000 "streaming units" / 1500 = 333 album units. Obviously the 1500 would need to be a different number, but this gets my point across. This way an album with 18 tracks getting 9000000 total streams would be given the same equivalent as the 10 track album with 5000000 streams.

[Sherane Lamar]

May 2, 2018 16:18:05 GMT -5 Codex said:

May 2, 2018 15:56:36 GMT -5 Sherane Lamar said:

these songs aren't popular for the song

I don't feel like this concept has any actual meaning to it. Songs are popular because people listen to them. A song like "Intro" is as popular as it is on Spotify because users chose to listen to it 6.5 million times last week. If they didn't want to listen to it... they wouldn't have clicked on it. They weren't suckered into it. They weren't tricked. It's not like it's a U2 song sneaking onto a person's iPod or something. 

Example:

I've been listening to Post Malone's album for a couple days.

I would never listen to something as bland as Over Now on its own, but since it's between rockstar and Psycho I don't bother skipping, I just ignore it. I honestly have no idea how it even goes, but I've streamed it maybe 4 times in the context of the album. A lot of people literally just put the entire album on repeat all week for 5 songs that they like, even though they barely tolerate the other 10 songs.

This is especially true for albums that are designed to be long, monotone and neutral.

I wouldn't expect that to be a very common listening practice at all, as skipping a song if a pretty effortless task, but what do I know? It would be a leap of judgement to say that it isn't common behavior. 

Just like it's a leap in judgement to believe that people are consciously choosing to listen to songs that they don't like. But even they did, how on Earth would Billboard go about separating the songs that people liked from the songs that people didn't like? Would they do a survey every time a big album dropped and then not release the charts until they got the survey back? 

The funny thing is, people already do choose not to listen to certain album tracks as much as others. That's why the catchy ones debut higher and last longer. The chart is already illustrating which ones people like to listen to the most. That's why J. Cole's "Intro" didn't debut nearly as high as any of the other tracks. 




I think your logic could be much better used in an argument for excluding radio play from the charts. As obviously people don't generally love *every* song that comes on the radio. They don't consciously choose them. And if they change the station, there's actually no way of anybody knowing (whereas skipping a song would stop that song's stream from being counted). 

Your logic could also be used in an argument against including any streams off a playlist that the user didn't build from scratch. Since inevitably, a listener wouldn't enjoy every song on said playlist. 


I agree with you that an album sale should be worth just as much as the individual purchase of each song. 



If you knew about how Spotify works, you'd know that there are no such things as "album streams", just like there are no such thing as "artist streams". Every song is assigned an album. Just like every song is assigned at least one artist. That's why "Chun-Li" is an album.


What you're proposing would require an entire restructuring of Spotify and would result in the charts being inaccurate, based on a belief that people are listening to songs that they don't like. Which has never mattered in the past. 

[Sherane Lamar]

And what about people like me who listened to "Beerbongs and Bentleys" once and never listened to it again because they didn't like it? Should we have an option of telling Spotify to redact those streams? Of course not. Our distaste will be reflected in we've each listened to the album once instead of 2-5 times.


I remember back when I used to use Pandora a bit. I would downvote or skip a lot of songs. When I'd run out of skips, and I was on a song I didn't like, I could "thumb down" that song. I could either listen to it, or I could try my luck with a different station where I still wouldn't be able to skip.

But I know that if I stomached through the song, it still counted toward the Hot 100, as well it should, since counting streams is as simple as that.