Au$tin
Diamond Member
Pop Culture Guru
Grrrrrrrrrr. Fuckity fuck why don't you watch my film before you judge it? FURY.
Joined: August 2008
Posts: 54,616
My Charts
Pronouns: He/his/him
|
Post by Au$tin on Jun 21, 2023 9:12:29 GMT -5
There absolutely was a decline in popularity and general public good grace between reputation and Lover, though. Just because she was still successful during that time doesn't mean she wasn't still on a very obvious downward trend that has since recovered tenfold. There is an appreciation for Taylor now that wasn't present during rep and Lover. folklore/evermore really course corrected everything in such an astonishing way that was able to lead to this monstrous era we're getting to witness now. Reputation debuted with 1.2M sales, was the years second best selling album globally, and had one of the most successful tours of all time. Lover debuted just under 1M because they made the worst song of her career the lead single, even so the first two singles went #2 Billboard. You have to reaaaaally squint to see this supposed "very obvious downward trend". Album sales are literally only one stat, and not to mention I said general public good grace too, which cannot easily by measured by any one statistical metric. And again, not once did I say the albums were flops or performed poorly in any way, just that as a whole, Taylor Swift the brand was on a downward trend when compared to her previous eras during those two album cycles that has since been reversed. I don't understand why so many here are having a really hard time grasping this concept and can't seem to get past the "but it wasn't a flop" one note argument despite the fact that nobody here said that. Nuance. Context. Learn these things please before continuing this discussion. Unless y'all just have really truly forgotten what the rep and Lover eras were like? Do y'all just not remember? The countless think pieces online about her? The way she literally only had two top 5 radio hits in that entire span? The way the public did not respect her as an artist? Come on, y'all, let's stop trying to rewrite history here. It's literally a FACT that not only her success and popularity, but her perception in the public eye during rep and Lover were behind 1989, and until folklore/evermore and especially this, it really looked Taylor was entering the legacy act stage of her career. And now she's bigger and more respected than she's ever been. It is a marvel. We're literally praising her. Why are you trying to take that away?
|
|
.indulgecountry
Diamond Member
Best Country Poster 2011, 2017, & 2018
"You left a mark on my face // And brought a dozen red flags in a vase"
|
Post by .indulgecountry on Jun 21, 2023 9:21:11 GMT -5
Neither of us have a crystal ball to be able to see who would've been right, but it was originally slated to be the fifth single a year into Lover's OG run in the summer of 2020, after several singles that performed meh by Taylor's standards at CHR. The song blew up organically now, but it didn't do that when Lover was the current era. Sure, it was a fan favorite album cut and always has been, but it was not performing on its own back then like it is now to where it *HAD* to be a single. There's a reason why they had to circle back around and release it now, and it's because her hand was forced. It's not like "Cruel Summer" has been a viral force like this since 2019; it is making bigger waves currently than it ever has. I'm sure it would've done well if it were released years ago, but I don't think it was poised to be some career hit by any means coming off diminishing returns of previous singles. The reason "Cruel Summer" is making waves now is because it's leading the setlist in her current mega tour. All it took was a bit of exposure to get the song rolling. Had Taylor been able to tour with Lover we could have seen it perform "on its own" like this, back then and IMO I think we would have. But I'm good with agreeing to disagree. :) Well that's just the thing, part of why it is connecting in such a profound way like this is because she took several years off from touring instead of having the big tours for each album over the past 4 years, so the fact that she's on this giant platform tour that's the biggest she's ever embarked on is giving it its necessary wings. If she'd just done a 'regular' tour for Lover that was comparable to the one for Reputation, "Cruel Summer" would not have had half the exposure its currently receiving as part of the current endeavor. I know COVID completely altered the timeline of things and throws a wrench in perfect comparison, but there's clearly way more hype for Taylor Swift presently in 2023 for various reasons that allowed for something magical like this song to be revived by fan-power alone, and I just can't get behind the idea that it would've just taken off and been this massive back then, even if she were able to tour for its parent album initially. It's definitely one of those things where we as fans can feel victorious that it's finally getting its due and blossoming into a way bigger smash now than it likely ever could've been when we all originally wanted it to be a single. :)
|
|
musiclife
Platinum Member
Joined: November 2022
Posts: 1,743
|
Post by musiclife on Jun 21, 2023 11:23:30 GMT -5
Really taking off!
|
|
mccloud
Gold Member
Joined: March 2022
Posts: 947
|
Post by mccloud on Jun 21, 2023 13:54:00 GMT -5
She absolutely was on a downward trend from Reputation through Lover critically. And without a doubt, was on a downward trend commercially Reputation through Evermore. Evermore sold like 300k first week...Midnights beat 1989 for her career best. You can't argue that she wasn't getting frontloaded #1's that weren't really on the radio or streaming great from 2017-2021.
|
|
deepston
5x Platinum Member
Nightmare Dressed Like a Kitty
just like a folk song, our love will be passed on
Joined: August 2017
Posts: 5,661
|
Post by deepston on Jun 21, 2023 14:05:57 GMT -5
She absolutely was on a downward trend from Reputation through Lover critically. And without a doubt, was on a downward trend commercially Reputation through Evermore. Evermore sold like 300k first week...Midnights beat 1989 for her career best. You can't argue that she wasn't getting frontloaded #1's that weren't really on the radio or streaming great from 2017-2021. Evermore didnβt have any physicals. Both evermore and folklore didnβt have pre-orders. If you only look at first week numbers there is a downward spiral but there were many other factors at play.
|
|
mccloud
Gold Member
Joined: March 2022
Posts: 947
|
Post by mccloud on Jun 21, 2023 14:14:48 GMT -5
She absolutely was on a downward trend from Reputation through Lover critically. And without a doubt, was on a downward trend commercially Reputation through Evermore. Evermore sold like 300k first week...Midnights beat 1989 for her career best. You can't argue that she wasn't getting frontloaded #1's that weren't really on the radio or streaming great from 2017-2021. Evermore didnβt have any physicals. Both evermore and folklore didnβt have pre-orders. If you only look at first week numbers there is a downward spiral but there were many other factors at play. She didn't have a any smash hits from Rep through Evermore except for about 5 minutes where LWYMMD was forced so yeah
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 14:19:28 GMT -5
This is getting tired. Move on.
|
|
mccloud
Gold Member
Joined: March 2022
Posts: 947
|
Post by mccloud on Jun 21, 2023 14:24:31 GMT -5
Nah
|
|
keatonzab
Platinum Member
Loves Music, Has Autism and Taylor Swift fanatic
Joined: September 2020
Posts: 1,028
|
Post by keatonzab on Jun 21, 2023 14:27:47 GMT -5
isn't she already having a rep hit already with Don't Blame Me going viral?
|
|
james518
Gold Member
Joined: June 2013
Posts: 597
|
Post by james518 on Jun 21, 2023 16:44:02 GMT -5
A review of Metacritic shows Lover was her highest rated album before folklore, so her being at a low critically there doesnβt exactly align (even if yes public interest was down by her 1989 standards).
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 17:26:17 GMT -5
isn't she already having a rep hit already with Don't Blame Me going viral? Yes. On top of the other four multi-platinum hits including two pop radio #1βs
|
|
|
Post by imbuemyblue on Jun 21, 2023 17:40:21 GMT -5
Lord, do we really need to parse the difference in opinions like this? She was simultaneously on a downward trend compared to the height of β1989β on basically every metric, while those βlowsβ were not only nowhere near any other legendary artistβs commercial fails after peaks (Mariah, Madonna, Janet, Britney, literally anyone) but higher than most artistβs peaks.
Two things can be true, people!
|
|
Choco
Diamond Member
james dean daydream
Joined: February 2009
Posts: 27,826
My Charts
Pronouns: he/him
|
Post by Choco on Jun 21, 2023 17:51:21 GMT -5
Not to mention Lover in particular has had amazing legs. Isn't it going to overtake reputation in terms of SPS? But the initial release felt muted because... it was, compared to her previous highs. She wasn't connecting much on the Hot 100, and album sales were good but easily her lowest at the time. Did y'all forget how "Lover" couldn't even get top 10 on Pop? The less said about "The Man" as a single, the better.
Also reputation. had "Delicate" which is one of her biggest radio hits unless I'm mistaken, but RFI and "End Game" were complete missfires on most metrics at the time.
Neither of these projects is her current career low (depending on how you count the TVs, her lowest performing project is either evermore or Fearless (Taylor's Version)), but it's not wrong to point out they both were on a diminishing returns trend. Taylor herself acknowledged it on her Miss Americana doc.
It's fairly clear that this is going to perform better now instead of as the followup to "The Man" back in 2020.
|
|
π Eloquent β’
Diamond Member
TSC: Certified Member
Joined: September 2007
Posts: 21,933
|
Post by π Eloquent β’ on Jun 21, 2023 18:32:13 GMT -5
Lord, do we really need to parse the difference in opinions like this? She was simultaneously on a downward trend compared to the height of β1989β on basically every metric, while those βlowsβ were not only nowhere near any other legendary artistβs commercial fails after peaks (Mariah, Madonna, Janet, Britney, literally anyone) but higher than most artistβs peaks. Two things can be true, people! This 100%! Thank you! I can't wait to see this be the huge hit we always knew it would be!
|
|
fearlessarrow
Moderator
Now a 7x PMA winner!
Joined: June 2015
Posts: 25,685
My Charts
Pronouns: he/him/his
Staff
|
Post by fearlessarrow on Jun 22, 2023 5:49:21 GMT -5
Forgot to mention this but "Cruel Summer" was also the third most added song on HAC this week with 10 adds.
POP: 35 25 TAYLOR SWIFT Cruel Summer 2559 1139 1420 11.410
+248 Spins +107 Bullet +0.943 Audience
HOT AC: 61 36 TAYLOR SWIFT Cruel Summer 246 27 219 2.311
+51 Spins +44 Bullet +0.441 Audience
|
|
gerry
2x Platinum Member
Joined: April 2009
Posts: 2,273
|
Post by gerry on Jun 22, 2023 6:41:57 GMT -5
Itβs finally picking up some steam on HAC.
|
|
Dylan :)
Diamond Member
smth 'bout youu
Joined: October 2014
Posts: 12,938
|
Post by Dylan :) on Jun 22, 2023 7:29:44 GMT -5
#3 (=) on US Spotify
|
|
|
Post by ificanthaveyou on Jun 22, 2023 10:33:29 GMT -5
This is a perfect Summer smash! It reminds me of jamming out to Shake It Off in Summer 2014!
|
|
|
Post by ethansdelicate on Jun 22, 2023 12:30:15 GMT -5
US Song Activity (HDD)week ending 6/15
#26 (+3) Cruel Summer 9,239,000 audio streams (+0.4%) 1,700 sales (+13%) 2023 run on HDD song activity: 42-40-35-32-30-29-26
US Streaming Songs (billboard) #28(+3) Cruel Summer *8 weeks|peak #14*
|
|
|
Post by ethansdelicate on Jun 22, 2023 13:25:27 GMT -5
idk how y'all be imbedding tweets here but lippredicts has it doing #20(+19) in a midweek prediction!! up 22% in points
|
|
|
Post by ificanthaveyou on Jun 22, 2023 13:35:33 GMT -5
idk how y'all be imbedding tweets here but lippredicts has it doing #20(+19) in a midweek prediction!! up 22% in points I REALLY hope she has some physical singles and remixes up her sleeve for this one. Taylor Nation better be going to work. Great opportunity for another Hot 100 #1
|
|
Dylan :)
Diamond Member
smth 'bout youu
Joined: October 2014
Posts: 12,938
|
Post by Dylan :) on Jun 22, 2023 14:19:39 GMT -5
idk how y'all be imbedding tweets here but lippredicts has it doing #20(+19) in a midweek prediction!! up 22% in points You just need to paste the link to the tweet
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 16:04:06 GMT -5
oh my
|
|
|
Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jun 22, 2023 17:28:29 GMT -5
Justice for βLoverβ the song (and the album β always)
|
|
|
Post by justlurkingaround on Jun 22, 2023 18:02:06 GMT -5
Love is a fantastic album and itβs high time it gets its flowers.
|
|
π Eloquent β’
Diamond Member
TSC: Certified Member
Joined: September 2007
Posts: 21,933
|
Post by π Eloquent β’ on Jun 22, 2023 19:43:38 GMT -5
Justice for βLoverβ the song (and the album β always) Sincere question, does Lover (the album) need justice? I get what you're saying for the single, but the album sold/is selling and streamed/is streaming really well. The album was also critically well recieved so I'm just confused on what it needs justice for? lol
|
|
|
Post by Rose "Payola" Nylund on Jun 22, 2023 20:04:58 GMT -5
Justice for βLoverβ the song (and the album β always) Sincere question, does Lover (the album) need justice? I get what you're saying for the single, but the album sold/is selling and streamed/is streaming really well. The album was also critically well recieved so I'm just confused on what it needs justice for? lol Just let us have some fun π£π£π£
|
|
π Eloquent β’
Diamond Member
TSC: Certified Member
Joined: September 2007
Posts: 21,933
|
Post by π Eloquent β’ on Jun 22, 2023 21:59:16 GMT -5
Sincere question, does Lover (the album) need justice? I get what you're saying for the single, but the album sold/is selling and streamed/is streaming really well. The album was also critically well recieved so I'm just confused on what it needs justice for? lol Just let us have some fun π£π£π£ How am I stopping fun by asking a question? I made sure and put sincere because I genuinely was curious of what you meant by wanting justice, that you were seeing an angle I wasn't maybe (like you felt it deserved even more recognition than it got or something). I figured you'd be open to explain since you were just quoting me with a very lengthy response about my opinions in this thread the day before yesterday.....but, ok, do you!
|
|
kamala 2024 truther
Diamond Member
Pulseβs #1 Conan Stan
Best Country Poster 2023 and 2x Woman of the Year!!!
Joined: October 2019
Posts: 16,381
Pronouns: he/they/she
|
Post by kamala 2024 truther on Jun 22, 2023 22:20:49 GMT -5
Justice for βLoverβ the song (and the album β always) Sincere question, does Lover (the album) need justice? I get what you're saying for the single, but the album sold/is selling and streamed/is streaming really well. The album was also critically well recieved so I'm just confused on what it needs justice for? lol I think that while Lover mightβve been critically well received for the most part (with retrospective reviews starting to pop up, any mixed or negative reviews have started to turn around into positives) and mightβve become an album that truly holds its own against the likes of 1989 commercially despite its messy single choices, the justice in question that is wanted is probably for fans to begin hearing the album in a different light and try to give it another chance. Iβve heard MANY say Lover is among their least favorites from Taylor, which is a shame because it was right under Red as my personal favorite when it first came out. But now, I think people are starting to see past the missteps such as βME!β and appreciate the album for what it is and what it represents in the context of Taylorβs discography, so Iβm hoping it starts rising in peopleβs rankings soon.
|
|
π Eloquent β’
Diamond Member
TSC: Certified Member
Joined: September 2007
Posts: 21,933
|
Post by π Eloquent β’ on Jun 22, 2023 22:30:25 GMT -5
Sincere question, does Lover (the album) need justice? I get what you're saying for the single, but the album sold/is selling and streamed/is streaming really well. The album was also critically well recieved so I'm just confused on what it needs justice for? lol I think that while Lover mightβve been critically well received for the most part (with retrospective reviews starting to pop up, any mixed or negative reviews have started to turn around into positives) and mightβve become an album that truly holds its own against the likes of 1989 commercially despite its messy single choices, the justice in question that is wanted is probably for fans to begin hearing the album in a different light and try to give it another chance. Iβve heard MANY say Lover is among their least favorites from Taylor, which is a shame because it was right under Red as my personal favorite when it first came out. But now, I think people are starting to see past the missteps such as βME!β and appreciate the album for what it is and what it represents in the context of Taylorβs discography, so Iβm hoping it starts rising in peopleβs rankings soon. See now I absolutely get what you mean! Thanks for the response luv! Yeah, despite all the statistical mumbojumbo it didn't have the best reputation with that lead especially! lol
|
|