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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2020 20:44:58 GMT -5
lmao what a predictable night kill anyways, I’m still mostly certain that Lukas is scum, but at this point I’ll have to go back through Coco’s posts again just to double check everything. fairly certain that you’re town but we just can’t risk making any mistakes Last call for alchohol. Any examples of Lukas being scum or is it just process of elimination.
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Post by Lukas on May 4, 2020 20:50:29 GMT -5
I do believe I made my stance definitive when I said that I mostly, and only, suspected Zeebz to be scum. I would've put a vote down a long time ago but y'all wanted me to discuss more things which probably wouldn't change the outcome anyways so I held off. (Really. In some games I've watched days can last like 5 seconds because people figured out who the mafia were). I reminded myself to come back last night to put a vote down but I forgot since I was sidetracked by other stuff. That part is on me. I have nothing new here and I don't think anything brought up here or discussed would change my opinion so.... If you're so sure and I do think you're town the why not vote yesterday when there was a consensus and are you ready to vote today? Yes I'm basically ready to vote now. Looking at the thread I don't think there's anything that could change my opinion on who's scum. Although it looks like we're still waiting on Zeebz to give an explanation of....their scum opinions. I don't think it would be fair to remove their chance of defending themselves so I'm not voting yet. I'm giving Zeebz 24 hours to come up with an explanation, and then I'll (most likely) put on my vote for him.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2020 20:51:54 GMT -5
Yeah he deserves a shot to make an argument. As long as we vote before deadline.
I laid my cards out. It's up to Zeebra to help change my mind
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 4, 2020 20:53:33 GMT -5
i'm here. pouring another drink and combing the thread for any last proof so stayed tuned. likely won't amount to much but I do appreciate the patience
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 4, 2020 22:06:32 GMT -5
(word wall warning) Okay, so to answer Coco's question, I laid out some of my suspicions on Lukas yesterday but it was mostly due to process of elimination. No matter how much I review Coco's posts, I just don't see her as scum. Admittedly, she could be pulling the wool over my eyes but literally nothing jumps out at me and I've tried and tried to find anything to sway me from leaning Town on her and at this point I don't know that there is anything to sway my opinion. Her hesitance to lay a vote down and her willingness to hear everything out only compounds this. Her last minute vote for me during the last Day Phase makes me think she wants to think everything through and not make a mistake. Regarding Lukas, once I narrowed down the field and found him as the most scum person left by process of elimination, I went back and reviewed his posts and I just can't get past the fact that he either failed to have a definitive read on certain people for the majority of the game (Coco, in particular) or that some of his opinions just struck me as too similar to others to not be suspicious (i.e. he shared similar suspicions of a Carrie/Zeebz scum type to Mylo's.) I've quoted some examples of these previously (although I am happy to quote again), but while reviewing I also found another scenario that didn't quite add up to me. Upon further review, Lukas originally expressed confusion over Mylo's suspicions of Carrie/Zeebz scum team (" And it's weird how he just randomly put down that Zeebz/Carrie is the scum team without much to go off of.") In this same post, Lukas also mentioned that he was leaning Town on me without much justification that my posting style was more similar to Kunt's, whom he believed was Town at that time. In his very next post, Lukas swaps his suspicions to being back to Carrie/Zeebz scum team without much original justification as to why. He mentions that he definitely believes Mylo is Town because of Max copping him, which fair, this is a similar conclusion that everyone eventually came to. Normally, I would think this would be enough to justify his change in stance but.. his justification of me being scum doesn't really make much sense? He says " And then today Carrie goes on to say that “Zeebz is definitely a town” which doesn’t make any sense to me because I don’t think anybody else acknowledged this", which seems a) similar to other posters opinions that had already been stated, so it seems his idea of a Carrie/Zeebz scum team came out of convenience (this goes back to my theory that once Carrie's game started to falter he decided to throw her under the bus) and b) the second statement, while nobody said Zeebz is definitively Town, seems nitpicky as to her choice of wording. For reference, everyone for the most part save Mylo had a Town read on me at that point so it is not that farfetched to say that Carrie was saying that without any sort of explanation as a why to try and blend in. I still am not really getting this Carrie/Zeebz scum team idea given that I was on her case for the majority of the game and I consistently challenged her explanations (which just puts more pressure on her), but that's not the point of this post. Going back to the post I linked, Lukas mentioned that this read of Carrie's definitive read on me either indicated that she was the cop and read me (which he even admitted was irrelevant because Max was already noted as the cop) or that we were a scum team. With this stated, I am not getting Lukas's logic here. He doesn't really go into detail as to why we are a scum team other than Carrie's one post regarding me definitely being Town, which, fair, I guess, and Mylo's statements that there were a few interactions between Carrie and I that seemed a little coincidental. He implies that by reading our interactions back he agrees with that assessment, but he fails to offer further reasoning as to why he agrees or to offer specific examples of why. Herein where my vague comments come into play. While many of his stances are not as vague, his statements here (as well as his lack of a committal stance on Coco for the majority of the game as well as his admissions that he " hasn't specifically interacted with people" or that "they haven't been as active in a certain day phase") just seem to read as noncommittal. In this same post (the second link provided), Lukas also states that he doesn't have a definitive stance on Coco or Kunt, but based on their "question asking" they are more helpful to Town (true) without offering much else in the way of explanation here. In this same statement, he goes on to say that he does not think that both Coco or Kunt are scum (yet implying the possibility that one of you could have been), yet then goes on to say that he feels more confident that Carrie and I are more likely scum based on a process of elimination with little justification of his own that I could have been scum. This just seems to support my vague comments theory (or, at the very least, that his viewpoints are too similar to other's who posted before to be completely original). Further evidence of this is here, where you state that you suspect me for the similar reasons as Mylo (our interactions seem... off) and state that the case for me being is a further investigation for Day 4, which never really came to fruition on your part. Which leads me to the point below This is all compounded by the fact that Lukas popped in during the last Day Phase, stating that it was " Very late but I skimmed through the entire thread so more thoughts on that later" yet never actually came back to elaborate on these when it was perhaps needed the most? If you thought I was scum, why did you not just lay a vote down? This just seems to compound the lack of explanation for a lot of the opinions that you have made. Pretty much the only explained theories that you presented were that Gabe was scum and your idea of Kunt being scum (which I can link that post as well). In your posts in the last Day Phase, you mentioned that you were pretty confident on where to put your vote yet you did not elaborate as to why I was the most suspicious. Sure, you mentioned your slight suspicions previously, but you basically resorted to the fact that " I did explain everything in Day 3 and nothing really changed since then, but I'll be open to any questions/clarifications the rest of you have", but this leads me back to the previous argument regarding your vague explanation as to why I am Carrie's scum partner. It just seems that literally your only indication that I may be scum stems from the fact that Carrie seems I am definitively Town and a random comment that Mylo made, which isn't exactly a lot to go off of. You spent the entirety of the last day phase either stating that you have already explained your position or defending yourself against my accusations that you were vague, which, to be fair, you have been since Day 4 and onward. You haven't presented any novel evidence as to why I am scum or as to why Coco is Town (you mention that Coco is Town here, in which you mention that just because she thought Mylo was Town, which she could have thought due to the obvious fact that that is who Max copped and there was no conclusive evidence that Mylo was scum, thus rendering this justification flimsy at best), which only makes me more suspicious of the fact that you have not taken a definitive stance? Admittedly, I was more vague than I would have liked to have been during the last Day Phase due to my increased inactivity, so I get why you would call that out, but I am moreso perplexed as to why you haven't also expanded on your ideas. Furthermore, you double down on the fact that you think I (and only I) am scum in your latest post and stating that your justification wouldn't make any difference. We're at a pivotal point in the game so any evidence you had would have at least somewhat of an impact on the game and the better likelihood that Town would have a winning outcome, but since you seemingly refused to provide such logic that only compounds my suspicions that you are scum and looking for an easy lynch. I am stating this under the impression that the only reason why you would not have voted for me at the end of the last Day Phase because you genuinely were busy, which could be a convenient excuse to explain your lack of novel observations or, quite simply, the only reason why Town has not lost. Coco at least is mentioning that there's a chance we could both be scum, yet you have tunneled on me with bare bones logic so that just seems fishy to me. Lastly, my final issue stems from the fact that you wanted the Bulletproof Town to claim their role on Day 3, which is not only much too seem but also seems like a convenient ploy to get someone in a power role to reveal themselves so as scum you could take them out. You support this conclusion by stating that this could help in the event that either Carrie or I were the most likely scum targets, which just seems like further tunneling. Moreso my suspicions here stem from the fact that you wanted Bulletproof to claim so early, which is not beneficial for Town in the slightest and just goes to make a scum game easier. This also works with the fact that Kunt actually was the Bulletproof Town and was Night Killed not too much later after his admission. I mention this not because this in and of itself automatically means that you are scum (this is an obvious move for scum to make), but you also mentioned Kunt as a scum suspicion here (in a possible scum team with Carrie), so this Night Kill could be an attempt to make yourself appear more Town given that you had previously thrown him out as a suspicion thus this kill deflects attention from yourself. I don't know if this train of thought makes sense, but just a last minute idea I had. Hopefully this helps to clarify some of the issues I have had with Lukas's gameplay. I realize that I should have brought this same energy to the previous Day Phase and thus was might not necessarily be in this position, but better late than never, I guess. I am more than confident that Lukas is scum and would be willing to vote for him. I realize this is a gigantic leap of faith to take, especially given that my gameplay has been more erratic and less thorough than I would have liked for it to be in the later Day Phases, but at this point all my cards are on the table and I am willing to accept whatever your conclusions are. I just know that I am Town and if you vote for me then we lose.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 4, 2020 22:09:29 GMT -5
Sorry for more reading, but I would like to add that the only reason why I have not voted for Lukas yet is that I want to hear thoughts from everyone, although I doubt my opinion will be swayed at this point. This is also the reason why I did not lay down a conclusive vote on him the last Day Phase.
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Post by Lukas on May 4, 2020 22:37:53 GMT -5
Thoughts:
1. So, I know I am town and I know that Coco is town since Carrie was pushing to deflect suspicion on her. I think I made that clear before. So that only leaves you. I don't know how that's tunneling. 2. How is the bulletproof townie claiming on day 3 not beneficial if it was someone like Carrie? If she ended up being the bulletproof townie and she didn't claim that and we lynched her then....we would lose anyways. If she was the BT and she claimed then sure....she could get killed on Night 3 but we would have investigated other people instead. It is beneficial to town in this case, and when I even gave this beneficial reason to begin with in the post then your absolute claim is uhhh...wrong. 2. If you think that this is the pivotal point in the game and you find it suspicious that I think that my opinion can't be easily swayed, then I don't see why you aren't living up to your own requirements. 3. Day 3 was me trying to figure out the people most likely to be scum because we had to lynch one then. Just because my main focus wasn't on you then doesn't mean that it can't be now. I was literally finding evidence for why Carrue was a definite scum, not you. You didn't suspect me on Day 3 either so... 4. If I wasn't busy last night and I was scum, then why would I pass on the option to lynch you when I would be guaranteed a win? From your post, it looked like you were thinking that alternatives were possible, which I think shows that you aren't confident in me being scum.
Everything else is valid though and I'm glad you're giving some justificstion haha. I wish I was more active on day 4. I'll attempt to make my claims more solid in the coming days too.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2020 23:31:12 GMT -5
I'm going to bed will read through what you both said and do some background check and see tomorrow morning. As long and drawn out as this game was I just dont want to choose the wrong person. I will say zeebs is right. Town would have been around for yesterday which Zeebs was. I get what both of you saying regarding not voting because I waited to vote but the lack of voting by either is throwing me off. I can make argument zeebs didnt want to vote Lukas incase he needed Lukas this day which would indicate scum. I could argue that Lukas didnt show up because he wanted to get one town NK and then hope one of us pulled the wrong trigger. So while I still suspect Zeebs the most based on my own reading back last day. I will also see if missed any links. I think we all made our cases. Now just the action is needed cause the longer I think the more I self doubt.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2020 23:33:22 GMT -5
I will say on the flipside Lukas could have won last night if he was scum by just voting and lynching. That is pretty much along with the no connection to Carrie making me suspect heavily that Lukas is town
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 8:46:44 GMT -5
Further thoughts on thoughts!!
Lukas:
01. That in and of itself doesn't mean that you are tunneling, it just means you are suspicious of me due to process of elimination (which I have caught some suspicion for. given that I have done the same with you.) My tunneling comments come moreso from the explanations of why you find me suspicious, it seemed at the beginning of this Day Phase you essentially had your opinion on why I was scum (which wasn't really elaborated) and then you ran with it. 02. Hm, fair. I do see the logic here with mentioning Carrie, but why did you specifically only throw Carrie and I out there? That's where my statement came from. It just seemed like you were hyper focused on the two of us and at that point not considering any other options which, in the case of Carrie, actually proved beneficial. Do you think anyone claiming as Bulletproof Town would have been as beneficial? I'm saying this because what if someone that nobody suspected claimed themselves as Bulletproof Town and thus it ends up a) not helping the search for that day and b) makes scums job a little easier in that case. These reasons are why I specifically brought this point up as a last minute thought. 03. No, but your lack of focus on me coupled with the vague explanations you gave as to why I was scum just seemed odd to me once you pretty much were like "Zeebz is scum I have stated my opinion ready to vote" 04. I don't think an alternative scenario is possible here unless Coco is scum and just playing a great game (in which case wow), but I don't think this is the case and I can't see her as scum at this point. When I made the comment about you being scum and being noncommittal at the end of the last Day Phase, I theorized that under the premise that you actually were busy during the end of the last Day Phase, thus explaining the lack of a hammer. I genuinely think you were busy given that there were repeated attempts to gather your attention and you did not respond, so I'll take your word for that there. However, this doesn't automatically clear you as not being scum because ideally scum would want a wagon to form of its own volition and then jump on, which in this case did not work with Coco's L-1 vote not coming until literally the last minute and your inactivity thus rendering you unable to hammer at that moment.
Coco:
I agree that at this point we can't afford to fuck up, hence why I'm laying everything out now. I have no cards left to play and at this point I think it is getting to the point of action. As to why I did not vote, I was waiting for further clarification from Lukas that never came. Granted, there have been several Day Phases where I have hesitated to vote, either because I did not want to give scum a chance to hammer or because someone else had already expressed intent to vote, which I can definitely see as suspect.
Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong but... I'm a little confused by this? If I'm scum, wouldn't it make the most sense to vote for Lukas and to get the ball rolling with that lynch? My hesitancy to vote for him in lieu of his explanations should show that I didn't want a quick lynch, I wanted us to consider every option. Anyway, I'm more confused as to why I would need Lukas this Day Phase. Could you explain this? (also lol there is no way I would drag this out longer than it has to be if I was not Town, this is the longest game of mafia I have ever played)
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 8:59:27 GMT -5
The reason I say that is scum is usually more hesitant to tie themselves into a vote. By not going too hard you left it open where if Lukas had a change of mind it be easy jumping on a Coco lynch for example. By fingering him enough as a suspect it also made me hesitant so it could be playing both sides of the fence.
In theory.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 9:02:40 GMT -5
In fairness you have been hesitant to vote previously too which is why it's not a big deal but considering the subtle push I felt was being made for Lukas by you and Carrie it threw me off last game you didnt vote him . I bring up to say was that because Kunt and I alluded to that Lukas push and it made you not wanna vote him.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 9:09:28 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely see what you’re saying now. By the same extension, wouldn’t it have made the same amount of sense if I were scum to keep you around in case you flipped on Lukas? Either way it would yield a positive outcome for a scum game.
Regarding your second point, I definitely get what you’re saying there. I did make a subtle Lukas push (or at least said he was a wildcard and I wasn’t liking his relative inactivity), so your logic makes sense. That said, during the last day phase I was pretty much set to vote for Lukas, just waiting on his clarification. Without hearing both sides of the case, my vote would’ve been nearly moot especially when I had two votes stacked against me already.
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Post by Lukas on May 5, 2020 9:54:16 GMT -5
1. Yes, that point of my lack of explanations is fair. I'll make my reasoning more concrete later; that's why we have day 5 (I said I would do this on Day 4 though so if you still find me suspicious because of this I could see why). 2. That's why I said on Day 3 that they should claim depending on who they are. If they are highly suspicious like Carrie, them claiming might be beneficial. If it was someone like Mylo/Coco, then I wouldn't have wanted the bulletproof town to claim. I also don't think I was hyper focused on you two; I actually did consider other scum team cases. Had the house not claimed BT on Day 4, I would also have been suspecting him too. 3. Once again, I stated that I don't find anyone else still in even remotely suspicious, so had it not been for this conversation, I would have voted already (and I bet you would have too so....). 4. I know that this doesn't make me not scum, but I don't think this would make me scum either. If I wasn't busy on Sunday night, and I was town, I would've voted since, as Coco said, this is a pretty crucial moment. If I wasn't busy on Sunday night and I was scum, I would've voted for you since it seemed kind of obvious during the middle of the Day 4 phase that Coco/the house was going to vote for you and I would've voted just to give myself the win. So I think my inactivity should just mean that I was actually busy and should not be lean your opinion of me one way or the other.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 14:13:09 GMT -5
Hm. You make valid points, but at this point I think we’re at a situation where we both think the other is suspicious, which isn’t going to lead the discussion anywhere, so it really comes down to if you have any further elaborations as to your suspicions and, ultimately, what Coco decides.
Coco, do you have anything you’d like to add or any questions you might have? I know you’ve been around this Day Phase essentially saying we should take action and taking the same stance as the previous Day Phase, but if you have anything else you want clarified or any additional thoughts I would love to consider those, also.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 14:59:27 GMT -5
Sorry it's been busy day on the go but I'm carefully reading the exchanges and trying not to be swayed. I'm relying on the information and notes I have leading up to this and no matter how much I twist myself I'm having a hard time seeing how he is scum. I cant make a case and I know I've already made a case where I can see you scum.
I'm holding my vote because I'm mulling and seeing if anything changes but its mainly following the crumbs from Carrie, previous voting habits and hesitancy. I cant find where Lukas was obviously scummy or tied to Carrie.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 15:05:44 GMT -5
No worries at all! Take your time, we’ve got it haha
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 16:02:11 GMT -5
I voted on feeling on Gabe and I was wrong. I voted on reason and receipts on Carrie and it ended up correctly. I have nothing to make a case on Lukas, and I've tried. I'm fairly confident that Zeebs is Carries partner and since everyone spoke and I'm still not swayed I have to go with my notes and what I outlined last day . The only connections are tying back to zeebs and while Lukas was inactive at times everytime he voted he gave reasons abs stuck with it .
This is what makes me confident
"That said, imma go ahead and say I do get a lot of Town vibes from Zeebz and Max so far, and Lukas' absence day 1 carrie start
Zeebz is giving me major town vibes, so no FOS there. I'm also getting town vibes from Max. End of day 1 carrie
At this point, I’m intrigued to hear more of Carrie’s reasoning, although we are likely running out of time. She popped in to provide vague commentary, which I want to attribute to her being a newer player, but it just seems strange that there wasn’t a lot of elaboration there Zeebs end of day 1
With all of that said, Vote: Carrie to add pressure in order to hear more of her thoughts. I would to see more of her opinions on everything and just to hear from her. Zeebs day 1
This was all after light Mylo push for zeebs/Carrie.
In order of least to most sus (aka town to scum): Zeebz You Max Coco Lukas Mylo Gabe
Zeebz, similar to you and Max, has been very integral in moving the discussion along while providing his own thoughts/opinions and reasonings for those opinions. Mylo's thought about fancy wording working against Zeebz is valid in my opinion as, if I'm not mistaken (which wouldn't surprise my newbie self), scum would have a reason to appear more sophisticated. However, Zeebz later explained that his fancy wording was essentially drilled into him by his AP Language teacher, and I genuinely don't feel anything suspicious about him.
Coco and Lukas I don't get much of a read from either way. Coco has been adding things and giving reasonings and while I was initially curious about Lukas, my suspicions of him have gone away in the time since he's posted.
Mylo I'm still curious about. He goes from one thing to another and it's quite erratic. Of course, that's probably tunnel vision on my part and it's just his play style, but (and I know vibes are probably a bad reasoning) the past 2 days of his posts give me a bad vibe, but not enough to put FoS on him.
I'm very suspicious of Gabe at this point. Most of his posts have been defensive and his reply to me when I called him out on it seemed to basically say people are suspicious for being suspicious of him, which just...doesn't make sense to me? He hasn't come in since outside of some one-liners to offer any reasoning as to why he thinks that, which gives
She keeps bringing up zeebs and Max, which explains why Max was copped but I get a sneaky feeling she is trying to cement that Zeebs is town after Max turns up town. It's a link made too often for my liking. Some feels off.
More instances of this trend
I will say I thought Max was town but I didn't expect him to be town cop (I thought town cop was more Zeebz or The House than Max, and I chalk that up to their way of pushing for more discussion, and especially Zeebz and the fanciness with his words).
, Regarding Lukas, I am not liking that he came in and put Gabe on L-1 (as well as not liking the fact that Gabe hammered himself, lmao, but okay), as his reasoning seemed to be incredibly similar to everyone's else's, so I am getting parroting vibes from both him and Carrie at this point. I want to talk this up to the fact that they are new, and this point slightly moreso applies to Carrie as I haven't seen many definitive stances that she has taken (as evidenced by her lack of a vote last go round.) Zeebs
I hope my gut,mind and soul is on point
Vote: Zebra
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 16:06:36 GMT -5
I think when you're looking and feeling something you gotta stand behind your vote. The lack of initiative this whole game from zeebra has been smart for scum and I cant see how town wouldn't be more impulsive.
It's up to Lukas to make the right decision I've laid it all out about as much as I can.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 16:37:15 GMT -5
Ugh. Well, fuck. I mean your gut isn’t right here, but I do respect that you took the time to go back through the thread and at least gave concrete reasoning. I respect your decision, even if it isn’t a surprise haha
Anyways because it’s probably my last chance to do so and I’ve laid out all of my suspicions Vote: Lukas
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 17:20:48 GMT -5
Unvote: zeebra
Vote: lukas
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:31:25 GMT -5
Oh shit
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 17:32:36 GMT -5
I'll explain after my shower. Lukas fucked up on page 3! Zebra was right.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:34:02 GMT -5
Unvote: Lukas until we hear what Coco has to say
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:34:36 GMT -5
I don’t even know if that’s possible I’m just genuinely interested to hear this explanation lmfao
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:35:48 GMT -5
(Obv I get it if it’s not possible and please feel free to proceed as you see fit albs)
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 17:42:30 GMT -5
You cant unvote! Too late for that.
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:44:52 GMT -5
You cant unvote! Too late for that. Haha I didn’t think so and I’m 100% willing to accept the outcome but I figured I would shoot my shot. Genuinely just curious, but at this point I’m p sure I know what the outcome of this whole thing is so GG 😘
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Zeebz
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Post by Zeebz on May 5, 2020 17:46:44 GMT -5
Sorry I’m a little tipsy #cicnodemayo
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Post by Albie on May 5, 2020 17:57:29 GMT -5
No more voting. Details to come when I get off work in about 30 minutes
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