Ever since the mid- 90s, "alternative" stations have been anything but alternative. As Matt said, it's basically just a name nowadays...I'm sure alternative stations get higher ratings than mainstrem rock stations in most areas..
Disagree. As has been pointed out, "alternative" stations are rarely alternative these days...but assuming there was a case where a real alt station is #1 in the ratings, this simply reflects the fact that there's an unusually high percentage of intelligent people in a certain market. This is in no way typical of the broad spectrum, and therefore I see no problem with it.
I definitely disagree. But I agree with what crash said. High ratings don't mean you're "mainstream", it means that you're doing a good job with playing you're songs and breaking bands and other whatnot. And yeah, it also doesn't mean that only 10 people should be listening to alternative. That's like wanting to stereotype your audience. I wouldn't want to have that.
I'm sure alternative stations get higher ratings than mainstrem rock stations in most areas..
In the five biggest markets with exactly one Alternative and one Rock station, the average Alternative station rating is 2.90 and the average Rock station rating is 4.98. Philadelphia: Alternative and Rock are tied both behind Active Rock Cincinnati: Rock way ahead of Alternative Sacramento: In the ratings Alternative and Active Rock are tied way ahead of the Rock station, but the station the ratings call Active Rock is on the Rock panel and the Rock station isn't. Due to format disagreement, I'm not using data from this market. Riverside-San Bernardino: Has one Alternative and one Rock station on the panel but I'm not using data from this market because they also get KROQ. San Jose: This market gets Alternative from San Francisco so it has the same problem as Riverside-San Bernardino and I'm not using it. Austin: Rock is way ahead of Alternative. Buffalo-Niagara Falls: This market has one Alternative station and one Rock station on the panel, but I'm not using it because the ratings also have one Alternative and two Rock stations from Canada. Tulsa: Rock is way ahead of Alternative. The Rock station had a horrible season with the most shares lost in the market. Albuquerque: The Rock station is a little ahead of the Alternative station but I'm not using this market because the ratings have another Alternative station not on the panel. El Paso: Rock is way ahead of Alternative In the last four markets I used, the highest rating for an Alternative station was 0.8 lower than the lowest rating for a Rock station, and Alternative was behind Rock by at least 1.8 in every market. In conclusion, I think you're wrong. The national rating for Alternative divided by the number of Alternative stations on the panel is 0.0(481 repeating) and the average for Rock is 0.08, much higher. The national ratings only include constantly monitored markets so the ratio of Alternative to Rock stations that count towards the national ratings if different than the ratio of stations monitored by Mediabase. I hope the ratios are close.
I like a lot of songs that got little or no airplay.
I'm assuming EvanJ got that quote from a thread on the Radio-Info Alternative board. (www.radio-info.com/mods/board.php?Post=126741&Board=alternative). I don't mean to be a stick in the mud about the whole citing sources thing, but I really think you should mention when you take things from another site.
(Disclaimer: I am a Radio-Info moderator, so yes, it is in my interests that Radio-Info get credit where credit is due.)
I'd disagree that Alternative can't be #1 in a market. Very few Alternative stations these days are out of the mainstream. If current rock is the most popular thing in the market, then Alternative should be #1. It certainly can happen in the West.
Evan, the major problem with your analysis is that you only include markets that currently have alternative and rock stations. For instance, in New York, 2 rock stations (Q104.3 and WNEW) flipped out of the format because they couldn't compete with WXRK. In LA, Rock KLOS went to Classic Rock because they couldn't compete with Alternative KROQ. Chicago had mainstream rock on Rock 103.5 and The Loop. Neither did as well as Alternative Q101. 103.5 is CHR now and The Loop is Classic Rock. So there you have the top 3 markets, all of them with Alternative doing so much better than the Rock stations that the Rock stations were forced to flip format. I'd say Keith3000's point was right.
I'm assuming EvanJ got that quote from a thread on the Radio-Info Alternative board. (www.radio-info.com/mods/board.php?Post=126741&Board=alternative). I don't mean to be a stick in the mud about the whole citing sources thing, but I really think you should mention when you take things from another site.
(Disclaimer: I am a Radio-Info moderator, so yes, it is in my interests that Radio-Info get credit where credit is due.)
I'd disagree that Alternative can't be #1 in a market. Very few Alternative stations these days are out of the mainstream. If current rock is the most popular thing in the market, then Alternative should be #1. It certainly can happen in the West.
Evan, the major problem with your analysis is that you only include markets that currently have alternative and rock stations. For instance, in New York, 2 rock stations (Q104.3 and WNEW) flipped out of the format because they couldn't compete with WXRK. In LA, Rock KLOS went to Classic Rock because they couldn't compete with Alternative KROQ. Chicago had mainstream rock on Rock 103.5 and The Loop. Neither did as well as Alternative Q101. 103.5 is CHR now and The Loop is Classic Rock. So there you have the top 3 markets, all of them with Alternative doing so much better than the Rock stations that the Rock stations were forced to flip format. I'd say Keith3000's point was right.
I do post links to radio-info sometimes. I won't use ratings data from years ago. Obviously not every market has every format and really no markets' ratings measure the exact demand in that market for every radio format. To me New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago don't seem to need a Rock station. The sum of Alternative, Active Rock (which none of the three markets have), Rock, Classic Rock, and Classic Hits is 6.5 in New York City (which has two Rock stations from embedded markets with low ratings), 8.7 in Los Angeles, and 8.6 in Chicago. The sum rating of those formats is 13.4. You said Alternative stations made Rock stations change formats. It's also possible for a Rock station to make an Alternative station change formats. In El Paso the Alternative station is eighth out of nine English FMs. In Morristown, local Rock station WDHA is ahead of Alternative WXRK. The market gets mostly New York City stations so WXRK should have no problem reaching there. Satellite radio, with more stations than you can get on the radio in any one place, could be more accurate than the national ratings for people that have it, but using it to measure national demand for formats discriminates against the poor. The good thing about a type of satellite radio ratings (or internet radio station ratings) would be that people in markets that are not constantly monitored or people who are not in a market could be included.
I like a lot of songs that got little or no airplay.
Post by thisbeautifulmess on Feb 15, 2004 3:03:51 GMT -5
Also consider that while alternative may be viewed as "mainstream" by the average rock/pop listener, a teeny-bop and boy-band fan will still view alternative as "alternative". It's all about individual perceptions and exposure/lack of exposure to musical variety.
I do post links to radio-info sometimes. I won't use ratings data from years ago. Obviously not every market has every format and really no markets' ratings measure the exact demand in that market for every radio format. To me New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago don't seem to need a Rock station. The sum of Alternative, Active Rock (which none of the three markets have), Rock, Classic Rock, and Classic Hits is 6.5 in New York City (which has two Rock stations from embedded markets with low ratings), 8.7 in Los Angeles, and 8.6 in Chicago. The sum rating of those formats is 13.4. You said Alternative stations made Rock stations change formats. It's also possible for a Rock station to make an Alternative station change formats.
Yes, it is possible for Mainstream and Active Rockers to make an Alternative station change formats. But it usually seems to happen the other way around.
My point is this: In the vast majority of big markets with only one current rock format (Alternative, Active or Mainstream), that one format is Alternative. This leads me to believe the demand for an Alternative station in these markets is far greater than the demand for an Active or Mainstream rocker. By only comparing the markets that have both, you're really limiting your comparison because you don't include a lot of the top markets.
NYC, LA, Chicago, San. Fran., DC, Miami, Orlando, Richmond all have Alternative formats with no Rock or Active Rock. There are other markets like Boston and Seattle where Alternative is easily the #1 current rock format.
You also didn't include Houston in the original analysis. In Houston, the one Alternative does better than the one Rock station.
In El Paso the Alternative station is eighth out of nine English FMs. In Morristown, local Rock station WDHA is ahead of Alternative WXRK. The market gets mostly New York City stations so WXRK should have no problem reaching there.
And there are plenty of other smaller markets like this, but that's exactly it, they're smaller markets. The point is that Alternative does better than Rock overall, and Keith3000 is right.
Post by thisbeautifulmess on Feb 15, 2004 21:52:43 GMT -5
Slinky said:
My point is this: In the vast majority of big markets with only one current rock format (Alternative, Active or Mainstream), that one format is Alternative. This leads me to believe the demand for an Alternative station in these markets is far greater than the demand for an Active or Mainstream rocker. By only comparing the markets that have both, you're really limiting your comparison because you don't include a lot of the top markets.
Maybe this is just a midwest thing, but to me it seems that active rock has a much higher demand unfortunately. The entire state of Minnesota doesn't have an alternative station. And for Wisconsin, you have to go all the way down to Milwaukee to find one there. Even the liberal college town of Madison doesn't have an alternative station.
And I believe that one of Chicago's two alternative stations switched to active rock about a year ago. And even if it's still classified as alternative, I've listened to it and it's definitely active rock!
Maybe this is just a midwest thing, but to me it seems that active rock has a much higher demand unfortunately.
It is definitely a midwestern thing. The coasts, especially the west coast, prefer Alternative. The further into the heartland you go, and the more rural the area, the less popular Alternative is.
College towns can go either way. Since college students don't listen to much radio, and college students don't usually get diaries, the townies' preferences can dominate the Arbitron ratings. On the other hand, Alternative does better in the college towns that also have a lot of young professionals (think Boston), because non-students tend to get more diaries and listen to more radio.
Yes, it is possible for Mainstream and Active Rockers to make an Alternative station change formats. But it usually seems to happen the other way around.
My point is this: In the vast majority of big markets with only one current rock format (Alternative, Active or Mainstream), that one format is Alternative. This leads me to believe the demand for an Alternative station in these markets is far greater than the demand for an Active or Mainstream rocker. By only comparing the markets that have both, you're really limiting your comparison because you don't include a lot of the top markets.
NYC, LA, Chicago, San. Fran., DC, Miami, Orlando, Richmond all have Alternative formats with no Rock or Active Rock. There are other markets like Boston and Seattle where Alternative is easily the #1 current rock format.
You also didn't include Houston in the original analysis. In Houston, the one Alternative does better than the one Rock station.
And there are plenty of other smaller markets like this, but that's exactly it, they're smaller markets. The point is that Alternative does better than Rock overall, and Keith3000 is right.
About Houston-Galveston, I must have been careless and not noticed when I looked at the panels. Even if the Alternative or the Rock station wasn't on the panel I should have remember that the market has both. That bumps out the smallest market I did, but still leaves Rock winning 3, Alternative winning 1, and 1 tie. Also, the gap between Alternative and Rock in Houston-Galveston is smaller than the leads Rock has over Alternative in other markets. San Francisco has only one rock format on the panel (Alternative), but Rock KFJO/KSJO is also in the ratings. Washington, DC has Baltimore Active Rock WIYY in the ratings. In Baltimore WIYY has an equal rating to the two Washington, DC Alternative stations (WHFS and WWDC) combined. WHFS is in between Baltimore and Washington, DC and I would expect it to have the best Baltimore signal out of any Washington, DC station. It is considered Washington, DC by Mediabase but has a city of liscense Annapolis. On the radio-locator map, WHFS's local circle has greater percentage of the yellow (city) area touching Baltimore than touching Washington, DC. Many Washington, DC stations appear in the Fredericksburg ratings, but WHFS doesn't because it is too far north (Fredericksburg is the next market south of Washington, DC). Also, it's a small company Hearst-Argyle Active Rock station versus Alternative owned by Clear Channel and Infinity. In Washington, DC, WIYY is 3.4 lower than it is in Baltimore but the sum of the Alternative stations is only 0.6 higher than the sum of the Alternative stations in Baltimore. In my market, Nassau-Suffolk, I don't know if NYC Alternative WXRK or Nassau-Suffolk Rock WBAB is ahead because the market is embargoed. Also, WBAB was removed from the panel I'm guessing for not playing enough currents. They played their top currents enough but their playlist went down to many songs with 1 spin. As thisbeautifulmess posted about Active Rock being popular in the midwest, in the biggest midwest market with Alternative and Active Rock, Detroit, Active Rock WRIF is beating Alternative CIMX, but you can't compare because CIMX has to play Can-Con. In San Diego, the Active Rock station was ahead of all three Alternative stations and the Alternative station with less than a 1.0 rating changed formats. Due to how many Alternative and Active Rock stations there are, none are in the Top 10 in the ratings. In Hartford-New Britain-Middletown, Active Rock WCCC was beating Alternative WMRQ, which Clear Channel changed to Urban WPHH (Power) to challenge Infinity's very popular CHR-Rhythmic WZMX. Just like in Baltimore, a small company Active Rock station (in this case, Marlin) was or is beating a Clear Channel Alternative station. The moves for WZMX and WPHH show it was good format change. The argument against Active Rock being popular is that WCCC fell in its first and only book so far after WMRQ changed to WPHH. WCCC is ninth in the ratings and the second most popular small company station.
I like a lot of songs that got little or no airplay.
in the biggest midwest market with Alternative and Active Rock, Detroit, Active Rock WRIF is beating Alternative CIMX, but you can't compare because CIMX has to play Can-Con.
I think you can compare those two. WRIF gets the better ratings because it's been around 21 years longer, and because Detroit is a blue-collar town whose male residents generally prefer a radio station that includes classic rock. Can-con I think has very little to do with it.
I'm pretty sure that if you looked at the industrial markets, such as Detroit, or Pittsburgh, or even Toledo, that the alternative stations generally are going to have lower ratings than the Rock, Classic Rock, or Active Rock stations.
And I also wanna know what happened to the pictures I was supposed to see this week!
Washington, DC has Baltimore Active Rock WIYY in the ratings. In Baltimore WIYY has an equal rating to the two Washington, DC Alternative stations (WHFS and WWDC) combined. WHFS is in between Baltimore and Washington, DC and I would expect it to have the best Baltimore signal out of any Washington, DC station. It is considered Washington, DC by Mediabase but has a city of liscense Annapolis. On the radio-locator map, WHFS's local circle has greater percentage of the yellow (city) area touching Baltimore than touching Washington, DC. Many Washington, DC stations appear in the Fredericksburg ratings, but WHFS doesn't because it is too far north (Fredericksburg is the next market south of Washington, DC). Also, it's a small company Hearst-Argyle Active Rock station versus Alternative owned by Clear Channel and Infinity. In Washington, DC, WIYY is 3.4 lower than it is in Baltimore but the sum of the Alternative stations is only 0.6 higher than the sum of the Alternative stations in Baltimore.
In Baltimore, I would agree that Active Rock is dominant over the Alternatives. Baltimore is more blue-collar and less affluent than DC so this makes sense. I was going to make the same point about Detroit, but crash46 beat me to it.
The HFS situation is interesting, to say the least. HFS's antenna is positioned right in between Washington and Baltimore. It's about a mile closer to downtown DC than it is to downtown Baltimore, but it actually covers the Baltimore market better, because the Washington market is more spread out, especially to the south and west in Virginia, where HFS's signal has trouble. Fredericksburg, in fact, has another Alternative station on 99.3, WYSK, so it's difficult to receive HFS in that area. However, because Washington is a larger and more affluent market, HFS prefers to target DC over Baltimore. HFS's studios share a building with WPGC in Lanham, MD, which is much closer to DC than Baltimore. The majority of promotions and concerts put on by HFS target DC as well. HFS still has plenty of Baltimore advertisers though. I hear a lot of ads for "Fox 45", a TV station in Baltimore, which have no relevance to me or anyone else who lives in the DC market because the cable here doesn't include them.
As thisbeautifulmess posted about Active Rock being popular in the midwest, in the biggest midwest market with Alternative and Active Rock, Detroit, Active Rock WRIF is beating Alternative CIMX, but you can't compare because CIMX has to play Can-Con.
Well, I'll give you that Active Rock is much more popular than Alternative in Detroit. Detroit has had a few American Alternative stations in the past (96.3 The Planet, 105.1 The Edge), and none of them ever got close to WRIF. In fact, they even had trouble beating 89X. Maybe 89X is actually being helped by the Can-Con.
Post by capital_guy on Feb 17, 2004 21:13:43 GMT -5
The name "alternative" hasn't been literal for quite some time now. The satement is ridiculous. This is why Billboard refers to the format as "modern" rock.
Now if you're gonna act like a *****, then you're gonna die like a *****
This reminds me of that time a couple of years ago when I suggested that songs on the Alternative chart should go recurrent after dropping from #1 because they aren't really "alternative" any more after hitting #1. At the time, a majority of Alt. #1s were crossing over to the pop chart, but that isn't the case nowadays. I was joking, of course, but I thought the idea itself was funny.
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This is why Billboard refers to the format as "modern" rock.