Billboard Hot 100: 10/10/2020

[Choco]

I think sales will be weighed down as soon as next year tbh. The chart feels way more artificial than usual.

[kimberly]

Oct 6, 2020 10:08:46 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Oct 6, 2020 9:47:23 GMT -5 strongerq said:

I will talk for myself. Of course the second part is the biggest issue. But i also have an issue with the weighting of sales, it should be lowered. Noone is talking about not counting sales.

Here is why: (i have posted this 5 times already xD)

Billboard 250 paid streams = 1 sale
RIAA 150 paid streams = 1 sale
Rolling Stone 120 paid streams = 1 sale
UK chart 100 paid streams = 1 sale

But the issue, when it comes up, seems to almost always stem from the ability of stans to buy multiple copies of a physical single, usually through an artist’s website. Outside of that, do sales cause a perceived issue on the chart?

I would say the biggest issue, even more than multiple buyers of a song, is that single sales are only available for a limited time in limited titles. So you’ll have a new release with a single available for a few weeks and that song is going to get a boost regardless of what’s happening around it. It’s only doing better because it’s available in more formats, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more popular. I’d say if anything, Billboard is moving back into a mid-90s scenario as a result of label/artist single availability except in this case it’s almost reverse. It’s effecting their credibility - or it should be.

yeah this is the point a lot of people seem to be missing — sales are weighed as they should, if you look at the average song charting on the Hot 100 right now. most songs end up with a total below 10,000 sales, and end up getting 5-7% of their chart points from sales. if you weighed that down ever further, that would be a misrepresentation of the average music consumption. yet this frame of thinking causes stan-powered sales weeks to carry songs up the chart when they aren't popular enough on airplay or streaming.

I really don't know what exactly the solution is here. maybe something like a tax-bracket system, where your first 10k sales count more than your next 40k, so on and so forth. or counting only 1 sale per person? limiting the number of remixes that can be combined?

[iggyamo]

Oct 6, 2020 10:38:51 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Oct 6, 2020 10:08:46 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

But the issue, when it comes up, seems to almost always stem from the ability of stans to buy multiple copies of a physical single, usually through an artist’s website. Outside of that, do sales cause a perceived issue on the chart?

I would say the biggest issue, even more than multiple buyers of a song, is that single sales are only available for a limited time in limited titles. So you’ll have a new release with a single available for a few weeks and that song is going to get a boost regardless of what’s happening around it. It’s only doing better because it’s available in more formats, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more popular. I’d say if anything, Billboard is moving back into a mid-90s scenario as a result of label/artist single availability except in this case it’s almost reverse. It’s effecting their credibility - or it should be.

yeah this is the point a lot of people seem to be missing — sales are weighed as they should, if you look at the average song charting on the Hot 100 right now. most songs end up with a total below 10,000 sales, and end up getting 5-7% of their chart points from sales. if you weighed that down ever further, that would be a misrepresentation of the average music consumption. yet this frame of thinking causes stan-powered sales weeks to carry songs up the chart when they aren't popular enough on airplay or streaming.

I really don't know what exactly the solution is here. maybe something like a tax-bracket system, where your first 10k sales count more than your next 40k, so on and so forth. or counting only 1 sale per person? limiting the number of remixes that can be combined?

Another option could be to only count sales that are activated on a unique computer or ip for the hot 100. I doubt many people actually activate their purchases off of the website.

[Gary]

So how do we know that BTS fans are buying dozens of copies of the same song and not just grabbing the many many different remixes?

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Oct 6, 2020 10:44:35 GMT -5 Gary said:

So how do we know that BTS fans are buying dozens of copies of the same song and not just grabbing the many many different remixes?

They are buying the different remixes. All those remixes count back towards the original on the chart.

[Naos]

I feel like there is a bit of a bias here. Like there's an impression of there being no way a K-pop group can actually have a real hit in the US. And I'm suspecting those who want to get rid of sales are generally not big on genres like country, rock, and other genres/artists that have a lot more reliance on sales than pop and especially hip-hop.

[Gary]

Nothing wrong with that. It should count back to the original

Like it or not, that is an indication of popularity

If BTS had the last name of Gaga or even Lil Nas X would there be this much of an uproar?

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Oct 6, 2020 10:54:04 GMT -5 Naos said:

I feel like there is a bit of a bias here. Like there's an impression of there being no way a K-pop group can actually have a real hit in the US. And I'm suspecting those who want to get rid of sales are generally not big on genres like country, rock, and other genres/artists that have a lot more reliance on sales than pop and especially hip-hop.

Since some people don't seem to understand show them with a picture:

The 3% decide what is #1 not the 85%. L O G I C

It's not a pop or hip-hop bias. ALL genres are being more consumed through streams. Yes, there is a bigger percentage of people who buy rock and country singles and albums a vast majority still use streaming platforms.

[deepston]

Oct 6, 2020 10:26:42 GMT -5 Choco said:

I think sales will be weighed down as soon as next year tbh. The chart feels way more artificial than usual.

If we look at the charts like 5-6 years ago, the top 10 is full of songs everyone knows. Now chart followers can't even name the lyrics of the songs that debuted at #1... It's ridiculous, something needs to be done for sure.

[GP]

Oct 2, 2020 20:17:25 GMT -5 iHype. said:

If he managed to get #1 I'd have to say 2020 officially reached the 1990/1991 era with all those extremely forgettable chart-toppers.

well

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Oct 6, 2020 10:56:01 GMT -5 Gary said:

Nothing wrong with that. It should count back to the original

Like it or not, that is an indication of popularity

If BTS had the last name of Gaga or even Lil Nas X would there be this much of an uproar?

Yes. There were a few people annoyed at Old Town Road's remixes and Lady Gaga's bundles

[spicymapping]

Oct 6, 2020 10:54:04 GMT -5 Naos said:

I feel like there is a bit of a bias here. Like there's an impression of there being no way a K-pop group can actually have a real hit in the US. And I'm suspecting those who want to get rid of sales are generally not big on genres like country, rock, and other genres/artists that have a lot more reliance on sales than pop and especially hip-hop.

We complained about Yummy.
We complained about Say So.
We complained about Stuck With U.
We complained about Trollz. 
We complained about Watermelon Sugar.
We complained about Move Ya Hips.
We are currently complaining about Franchise.

Notice how everything else isn't k-pop? Notice how all the songs we're complaining about are HH/Pop and none of the songs we're complaining about are Country/Rock?

[GP]

I've been hating sales all year long as most have.. lol not everything is racism or bias ...

[spicymapping]

Oct 6, 2020 10:08:46 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Oct 6, 2020 9:47:23 GMT -5 strongerq said:

I will talk for myself. Of course the second part is the biggest issue. But i also have an issue with the weighting of sales, it should be lowered. Noone is talking about not counting sales.

Here is why: (i have posted this 5 times already xD)

Billboard 250 paid streams = 1 sale
RIAA 150 paid streams = 1 sale
Rolling Stone 120 paid streams = 1 sale
UK chart 100 paid streams = 1 sale

But the issue, when it comes up, seems to almost always stem from the ability of stans to buy multiple copies of a physical single, usually through an artist’s website. Outside of that, do sales cause a perceived issue on the chart?

I would say the biggest issue, even more than multiple buyers of a song, is that single sales are only available for a limited time in limited titles. So you’ll have a new release with a single available for a few weeks and that song is going to get a boost regardless of what’s happening around it. It’s only doing better because it’s available in more formats, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more popular. I’d say if anything, Billboard is moving back into a mid-90s scenario as a result of label/artist single availability except in this case it’s almost reverse. It’s effecting their credibility - or it should be.

I'm personally annoyed by a lot of itunes sales and how unbalanced it tends to be but no, it's not something that's the end of the world and website sales are absolutely the main problem here. I would prefer if the ratio was actually 100-150 but as i outlined all the current divisor is doing with itunes alone is keeping a song like Starting Over a few spots higher than it should be.

[GW]

Every artist lucky enough to hit the big time (superstar level) has a phase where their fanbase (and label) go all-in for them. It's been this way since Elvis. MANY songs that have reached #1 on the Hot 100 owe it to the artist-of-the-moment's rabid fanbase "manipulating" the chart with their ...mania.

I also think we focus too much on Billboard themselves. It's the industry. Historically, many changes to the chart are prompted by industry pressure. Like in the 90s when the labels wanted their cake and to eat it to by not releasing singles to increase album sales, forcing Billboard to change their rules to reflect ALL popular *songs*, not just singles with retail availability. The irony, obviously, is how it used to be an issue that songs were "punished" on the Hot 100 because they didn't have a retail single, and now it's like we're wanting the opposite to be true since streaming is shown to be the dominant component.

I've said it before, but streaming's existence is the reason why this topic has intensified. It's acting as some kind of master barometer of popularity (or even just consumption). I can see things headed in a streaming-only direction, but when people are willingly purchasing physical copies of music in the thousands, it seems like self-sabotage to lessen sales' impact on the chart. I know some disagree and put it on Billboard's credibility, but again, it's an entire industry that still struggles with its own paradigm shift that started 20 years ago. There's no easy answer, it's been a mess and will continue to be messy until things go back to a 1- or 2-component system.

[Gary]

Oct 6, 2020 11:03:10 GMT -5 spicymapping said:

Oct 6, 2020 10:54:04 GMT -5 Naos said:

I feel like there is a bit of a bias here. Like there's an impression of there being no way a K-pop group can actually have a real hit in the US. And I'm suspecting those who want to get rid of sales are generally not big on genres like country, rock, and other genres/artists that have a lot more reliance on sales than pop and especially hip-hop.

We complained about Yummy.
We complained about Say So.
We complained about Stuck With U.
We complained about Trollz. 
We complained about Watermelon Sugar.
We complained about Move Ya Hips.
We are currently complaining about Franchise.

Notice how everything else isn't k-pop? Notice how all the songs we're complaining about are HH/Pop and none of the songs we're complaining about are Country/Rock?

I sense a continual theme

[dremolus - solarpunk]

Omfg

How is it the political discussion threads were less eye-gouging and headache-inducing than this one thread the last 24 hours?

[kingvavis]

Oct 6, 2020 11:10:53 GMT -5 Gary said:

Oct 6, 2020 11:03:10 GMT -5 spicymapping said:

We complained about Yummy.
We complained about Say So.
We complained about Stuck With U.
We complained about Trollz. 
We complained about Watermelon Sugar.
We complained about Move Ya Hips.
We are currently complaining about Franchise.

Notice how everything else isn't k-pop? Notice how all the songs we're complaining about are HH/Pop and none of the songs we're complaining about are Country/Rock?

I sense a continual theme

What? People can't complain about anything they see wrong?

[Gary]

I didn't say that

[Mathgeek]

The only people who hate sales are people who watch charts. Artists probably like sales I’m guessing especially when looking at relying on streams only for revenue.

If sales shouldn’t count on the Hot100, maybe the next step is removing sales from the BB200?

It’s just interesting to read so many perspectives on this

[at40fansince1984]

Right now the issue is "Where's The F'ing Charts" If they're thinking about making the whole site where you have to be a BB PRO to view them then they've screwed themselves.

[levitating]

is this chart ever gonna come out or

[wavey.]

Not multiple complaints! Ain't nothing we can do about it, so I just enjoy looking at what hits the charts at any position. Sure it adds accolades to the artists themselves, but I still look forward every monday, because something ALWAYS happens. Just my take.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about to sales part of it. It's def not a main focus tho.

[m450n]

We're waiting billboard

[kimberly]

Oct 6, 2020 10:38:51 GMT -5 kimberly said:

Oct 6, 2020 10:08:46 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

But the issue, when it comes up, seems to almost always stem from the ability of stans to buy multiple copies of a physical single, usually through an artist’s website. Outside of that, do sales cause a perceived issue on the chart?

I would say the biggest issue, even more than multiple buyers of a song, is that single sales are only available for a limited time in limited titles. So you’ll have a new release with a single available for a few weeks and that song is going to get a boost regardless of what’s happening around it. It’s only doing better because it’s available in more formats, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more popular. I’d say if anything, Billboard is moving back into a mid-90s scenario as a result of label/artist single availability except in this case it’s almost reverse. It’s effecting their credibility - or it should be.

yeah this is the point a lot of people seem to be missing — sales are weighed as they should, if you look at the average song charting on the Hot 100 right now. most songs end up with a total below 10,000 sales, and end up getting 5-7% of their chart points from sales. if you weighed that down ever further, that would be a misrepresentation of the average music consumption. yet this frame of thinking causes stan-powered sales weeks to carry songs up the chart when they aren't popular enough on airplay or streaming.

I really don't know what exactly the solution is here. maybe something like a tax-bracket system, where your first 10k sales count more than your next 40k, so on and so forth. or counting only 1 sale per person? limiting the number of remixes that can be combined?

I wanted to look at some data to check this for this week's chart. Here's an estimate of how much of some song's points came from sales:

"FRANCHISE" - 55.1%
"Dynamite" - 54.8%

"Holy" - 10.0%
"Kings & Queens" - 9.9%
"Savage Love" - 8.0%
"I Hope" - 7.4%
"my ex's best friend" - 7.3%
"Mood" - 6.4%
"Blinding Lights" - 6.1%
"WAP" - 5.6%
"Watermelon Sugar" - 4.6%
"Don't Start Now" - 2.8%
"Break My Heart" - 2.7%
"Laugh Now Cry Later" - 2.4%
"Lemonade" - 2.3%
"What You Know Bout Love" - 1.9%

[deepston]

[renfield75]

Oct 6, 2020 11:01:52 GMT -5 GP said:

Oct 2, 2020 20:17:25 GMT -5 iHype. said:

If he managed to get #1 I'd have to say 2020 officially reached the 1990/1991 era with all those extremely forgettable chart-toppers.

well

I think the difference between then and now is that those 90s hits, while forgotten today, were known at the time. Yes the system was less accurate pre-Soundscan/BDS but every number one hit then was a top 10/20 radio and sales hit (in the days before streaming and the internet). The videos were played on MTV or BET or VH1. The songs all had solid 15-20 week runs on the chart (when all chart runs were generally shorter than now). They were hits anyone listening to music then would know. "The First Time" and "She Ain't Worth It" and "I've Been Thinking About You" were all over the radio in '90-'91. Music consumption was more mainstream and homogenous then so more people heard the big hits.

Not only will most people (even music fans) not know "TROLLZ" or "FRANCHISE" in 30 years, they already don't know them now.

[iHype.]

Some of y'all just get very defensive whenever people criticize sales in general lol. 

The one or two people saying sales should be removed completely are obviously going a bit overboard and that's not ever gonna happen. However 90% of the comments are just criticizing how Billboard includes sales in the current Hot 100 calculations, which is what obviously has to be remodeled.

Removing those bundled sales that don't ship was obviously a very good step, however that was never the only issue with sales. It just seemed like so because that the most common issue/loophole with sales, and the one that generated the most publicity.

One fan having 20 purchases of a song count should obviously be cracked down on, and they also just need to downweigh sales impact in general. Songs should not being out the top 5 on streaming, essentially not charting on radio, but going #1 because they have less than 100k sales at that. 80k~ or whatever is such a ridiculously small number, and in the grand scheme when stans are knowingly buying multiple copies its even more ridiculous. 

Yes people still do buy music, but when RIAA reports the industry is 85% streaming and 6% digital sales, yet about 65% of the #1s this year got there with digital sales tactics its a bit ridiculous and clearly overemphasizing a near-dead consumption form. If a song is truly selling a huge amount ala 200k or 300k then by all means, that would be a big deal, but these #1 songs doing 80k with having 10 different physical versions or 10 remixes available is just rewarding a small amount of stans manipulating the chart. 

[Enigma.]

The truth!!

[deepston]

How to fix the sales shenanigans:
1. Ban bulk buying of digital copies with the same credit card.
2. Same for physical copies on the artists' websites.
3. Only allow the remix with the highest points of the week to count towards the overall Hot 100 placement of a song.