Billboard Hot 100: 09/18/2021

[atg]

I’m still glad to see there’s songs from both albums that are (i guess) fan favorites that will be the ones to stick around. From Kanye we got Hurricane, Off The Grid and Moon. From Drake we got Way 2 Sexy, Fair Trade, Knife Talk and Girls Want Girls. If any of these songs stick around to see the 2022 YE then we’ll know that these albums haven’t immediately faded away after their album bomb weeks.

[Naos]

Sept 16, 2021 4:33:23 GMT -5 thegreatdivine said:

Yes, because in the scenario you've just described, people purchased the album, not the individual songs off said album, so the Hot 100 can't account for the consumption activity on each of those songs. When you buy an album, how can anyone tell how many times you listened to specific songs off the album, if you listened to any song off the album at all? That's literally impossible. You buy an album and that sale counts as 1 album unit. With streaming, 1,250 paid-tier audio streams/3,750 free/ad-supported-tier audio streams equals 1 album unit. That's it.

Popular albums used to be just people who wanted the single or two of them because singles weren't available. Similarly, an album can become popular on the Billboard 200 or the RIAA based on only one or two singles because of streaming. You can have a Diamond single, and you'd have a Platinum album by default even though nobody really cared enough to listen to the other tracks. An album can rise from lower positions based on the strength of one single. Why should streaming units count as an album unit if the rest of the album outside of singles may not be being listened to?

Like, you could buy individually every track of the album, and it would really serve no practical difference over buying the album itself, yet it would be counted as buying the 12 or so tracks, rather than the album, which would both contribute better to the Billboard 200 and Hot 100.

If every person who bought an album with big sales instead bought each individual track, the tone would probably change to that of manipulation. Well, we got a new way for rock to hit the charts if the fans and bands would care enough, I guess.

[85la]

Sept 16, 2021 3:11:55 GMT -5 thegreatdivine said:

The fundamental difference between the streaming era and the pure sales era is that essentially, you don't own any of the songs you stream. Yes, with a premium streaming subscription, you can download content for offline useage but once your subscription is expired, you seize to have access to that content until you subscribe again. With pure sales, you buy an album and you own it. Once that transaction goes through, there's simply no way to account for how many times you could have played any of the songs on the album. With streaming, however, you don't buy albums. You stream indivial songs on the albums and that's how the consumption activity on each song is easily accounted for and ergo, can be represented on the Hot 100. The only copy of CLB I own is the digital copy I bought off iTunes. That's the one I get to own forever. If I want to stream the album, I need a subscription for the best experience and for Drake to get 1 sale unit from me, he needs to get me to stream his music at least 1,350 times.

The exact same argument can be said of both physical and digital singles though, but they have always and still do count. You're right in that there's no way to tell exactly how many times the songs on both singles and album purchases are listened to, but this isn't a reason to not include them at all, which would be even more inaccurate. Reasonable assumptions and estimations can be made even if we don't have the exact numbers, as is done with radio audience calculations and other instances. If someone takes the time and money to purchase an album, it would be very reasonable to assume that each song on said album was listened to at least once, so at the very least we can start with that then, having one song on each album equal to one stream. But as a singles purchase has more weight than a single song stream, first of all because it generates more revenue (which is also part of the chart) and to account for additional times it's listened to, I would say that songs on album purchases should similarly count for more as well. And then going back to the problem of how many times each song is listened to, as it probably isn't equal across all songs, as mentioned before the points distribution can be adjusted similar to the proportions of what the streaming numbers show, and/or give more points to the songs that are actively promoted and receiving radio play.

[rimetm]

What happens then when an album has garbage streaming across the board, no significant radio pushes, and thus there are no useful proportions to work with? Do you really want there to have been a unified front of an album bomb of Iron Maiden’s Senjutsu right behind Drake on this week's Hot 100? You’re so focused on helping artists that don’t tend to have massive album bombs but have big singles that you’re failing to realize how much chaos the chart would be thrown into by every other album-focused artist that debuts in the top 5 or so.

[felipe]

Sept 16, 2021 3:11:55 GMT -5 thegreatdivine said:

Rose "Payola" Nylund felipe I don't understand the points you're both trying to make with suggesting Billboard should find a way to account for the impact of album sales on the Hot 100. That is literally impossible.

Back when digital sales were still strong and most people actually bought the music they listened to, it counted. Hell, it still does. People just aren't buying individual songs off albums enough for them to chart on the Hot 100. I already said in an older post that Taylor Swift had album bombs with Fearless/Speak Now following the release of each of those albums because her fans bought enough copies of each song on US iTunes, enabling them to chart. Some songs off Drake's 2013 album, Nothing Was the Same, also charted for the same reason. Soon after then, streaming got introduced to Billboard's charts and year after year, sales kept dying as more and more people started to choose to subscribe to streaming services and have access to millions of songs as opposed to spending $10-12 dollars to own just one album.

The fundamental difference between the streaming era and the pure sales era is that essentially, you don't own any of the songs you stream. Yes, with a premium streaming subscription, you can download content for offline useage but once your subscription is expired, you seize to have access to that content until you subscribe again. With pure sales, you buy an album and you own it. Once that transaction goes through, there's simply no way to account for how many times you could have played any of the songs on the album. With streaming, however, you don't buy albums. You stream indivial songs on the albums and that's how the consumption activity on each song is easily accounted for and ergo, can be represented on the Hot 100. The only copy of CLB I own is the digital copy I bought off iTunes. That's the one I get to own forever. If I want to stream the album, I need a subscription for the best experience and for Drake to get 1 sale unit from me, he needs to get me to stream his music at least 1,350 times.

Streaming offers a system to account for individual streams of songs. You stream the songs off an album but with pure sales, you can either buy the album as a whole (which is what most people do) or you can buy the songs off the album (which people rarely do, ergo, enough points aren't generated for the sale units of each song to chart on the Hot 100). The streaming forumla was just to set an industry standard Billboard felt was fair to equate to the unit of a sale.

I'm not sure it's literally impossible. Billboard still counts digital sales on the Hot 100, right? So let's say Billboard changes the rules to state that an album sale equals 1 sale for each individual track on the album. And thus that would count towards the Hot 100. Of course some would complain it's unfair, or they'd hate to see Adele taking over all the spots on the top 10, but it actually comes down to how Billboard chooses to see this and which measures they choose to take.

[rimetm]

Sept 16, 2021 15:01:25 GMT -5 felipe said:

So let's say Billboard changes the rules to state that an album sale equals 1 sale for each individual track on the album. And thus that would count towards the Hot 100. Of course some would complain it's unfair, or they'd hate to see Adele taking over all the spots on the top 10, but it actually comes down to how Billboard chooses to see this and which measures they choose to take.

You wouldn't need to wait for Adele, people would call the rule stupid this week.



Senjutsu sold 61k copies, translating to an automatic 12.2k chart points for every song in your system. If you think they all deserve to be top 50, then have fun in la la land, because this is self-evidently a bad idea.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 16, 2021 14:43:49 GMT -5 rimetm said:

What happens then when an album has garbage streaming across the board, no significant radio pushes, and thus there are no useful proportions to work with? Do you really want there to have been a unified front of an album bomb of Iron Maiden’s Senjutsu right behind Drake on this week's Hot 100? You’re so focused on helping artists that don’t tend to have massive album bombs but have big singles that you’re failing to realize how much chaos the chart would be thrown into by every other album-focused artist that debuts in the top 5 or so.

Why would it be off if a bunch of Iron Maiden songs made the Hot 100 off the back of its parent album selling really well? Just because the people buying that album aren’t people who stream music doesn’t mean that album isn’t being heard. It’s just not being heard by people who regularly stream.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

The thing this entire discussion (and similar ones this week with the Drake bomb) comes down to for me is less about the artists and more about the people they cater to.

We’ve had people criticize Billboard and Drake for the Drake album bomb, commenting on how it wasn’t accurate or representative because people “don’t know the songs.” Clearly, enough people listened because the numbers said so and this week, we trust that the numbers haven’t been manipulated or falsified. Yet despite that, we are angry that an album bomb resulted in Drake occupying the top 9. What we’re really saying is, we’re upset that fans of Drake’s music shouldn’t have their music consumption counted on the same value as the other more “accepted” hits out right now.

I’d be willing to bet, if Adele had an album bomb of this level where 9 out of the top ten were songs from 25 on the week it came out, no one would dispute it because that album release was huge all around. We all heard about it and her singles were getting played on multiple radio formats. But because Drake is more niche, and caters to a more specific audience, when he has an album bomb it’s a problem.

And now the suggestion that an album bomb from an old rock band, who also has a niche audience in this day and age, YET who clearly had a decent sales week. Why is that so absurd? Why are we so willing to dismiss the music consumption of people not considered part of the “general public”? Whether it’s Drake, Iron Maiden, Ariana, Adele, whoever. And regardless of whether it’s streaming or sales.

[jenglisbe]

Sept 16, 2021 15:48:56 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

But because Drake is more niche, and caters to a more specific audience, when he has an album bomb it’s a problem.

Is he more niche, or does he just have an audience that isn't necessarily conversing with many people who post here?

[felipe]

Sept 16, 2021 15:31:54 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Senjutsu sold 61k copies, translating to an automatic 12.2k chart points for every song in your system. If you think they all deserve to be top 50, then have fun in la la land, because this is self-evidently a bad idea.

Do they deserve to be in the top 50? Does Drake deserve to have 9 songs in the top 10? Deserve is a strong word when it actually comes down to having enough points under Billboard's latest rules and formula.

[singingrulebritannia]

Sept 16, 2021 14:43:49 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Do you really want there to have been a unified front of an album bomb of Iron Maiden’s Senjutsu right behind Drake on this week's Hot 100?

Sept 16, 2021 15:31:54 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Senjutsu sold 61k copies, translating to an automatic 12.2k chart points for every song in your system. If you think they all deserve to be top 50, then have fun in la la land, because this is self-evidently a bad idea.

You've convinced me



Billboard, implement this awesome idea immediately

[rimetm]

Sept 16, 2021 16:38:39 GMT -5 felipe said:

Sept 16, 2021 15:31:54 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Senjutsu sold 61k copies, translating to an automatic 12.2k chart points for every song in your system. If you think they all deserve to be top 50, then have fun in la la land, because this is self-evidently a bad idea.

Do they deserve to be in the top 50? Does Drake deserve to have 9 songs in the top 10? Deserve is a strong word when it actually comes down to having enough points under Billboard's latest rules and formula.

Fine, then let's throw a different scenario as an example. On the May 8, 2021 chart, Moneybagg Yo topped the Billboard 200 with 110k units, with a modest album bomb on the Hot 100 including 2 songs in the top 40. That week, Eric Church dropped an album that debuted at #2 with just 53k units, 42k of which were album sales. The resulting 8,400 points every song on the album would get in your system would mean they'd outdebut most of Moneybagg's songs (since the album got 4k sales, a measly 800 point boost), possibly even Wockesha at #59. I don't think Billboard would want an album that they don't even know if most buyers listened to (especially when in some cases they're mass-bought) to outperform an album that did twice the consumption on the songs chart. The only way I'd be willing to accept this sort of paradigm shift is if the sales metric finally gets the kick in the shorts it's needed for years, down from its current divisor of 5 to something like 10, maybe 12 or 15.

[GW]

I don't think niche is the right word to describe Drake's audience. His audience must be incredibly large and cross genre lines in big ways with the kind of numbers he pulls in all the time, especially his Hot 100 presence.

Maybe the non-fans of the hip-hop-star-who-dominates-and-may-or-may-not-make-poppy-enough-music are the niche, just not on this very pop-girl-centric-but-and-also-chart-obsessed board. It's a very small world in here, and not representative of the big picture. As this conversation has already eluded to, there's still a lot of listening going on that isn't via streaming.

That said, I do feel like Drake is distancing himself from the Pop radio game in recent eras with his output. Which is fine, he's got nothing to prove to himself at this point, and certainly not to chart watchers, or to Pop radio, so good on him. Going back to the original point, his audience is massive, and he doesn't seem to be losing any of those who actually stream his music on the regular, regardless of radio hits.



EDIT: Not necessarily related, but someone said something somewhere a long time ago about how the Hot 100 these days feels like it's capturing the data of the record store listening stations back in the day. Streaming has allowed us to sample an album, and not ever have to buy it, and the first week curiosity/hype makes everyone rush to the listening stations. BUT, now it all counts towards the singles chart.  Obviously album listening stations were very limited, but I still dug the analogy. The Hot 100 allows full albums, which to many of us who've been around a minute, is wild, and maybe even seems bat s**t crazy. I believe in evolution and things morphing and changing almost entirely, though, so it is what it is. But it's absolutely a whole different dance. 

[felipe]

Sept 16, 2021 17:11:31 GMT -5 rimetm said:

Sept 16, 2021 16:38:39 GMT -5 felipe said:

Do they deserve to be in the top 50? Does Drake deserve to have 9 songs in the top 10? Deserve is a strong word when it actually comes down to having enough points under Billboard's latest rules and formula.

Fine, then let's throw a different scenario as an example. On the May 8, 2021 chart, Moneybagg Yo topped the Billboard 200 with 110k units, with a modest album bomb on the Hot 100 including 2 songs in the top 40. That week, Eric Church dropped an album that debuted at #2 with just 53k units, 42k of which were album sales. The resulting 8,400 points every song on the album would get in your system would mean they'd outdebut most of Moneybagg's songs (since the album got 4k sales, a measly 800 point boost), possibly even Wockesha at #59. I don't think Billboard would want an album that they don't even know if most buyers listened to (especially when in some cases they're mass-bought) to outperform an album that did twice the consumption on the songs chart. The only way I'd be willing to accept this sort of paradigm shift is if the sales metric finally gets the kick in the shorts it's needed for years, down from its current divisor of 5 to something like 10, maybe 12 or 15.

I do understand your point. I guess though, when we see an album that performs well on sales but not on streaming we just assume nobody is listening to these albums because, after all, none of the songs showed up on the Hot 100. So we assume no one is listening to Eric Church, or Iron Maiden or Halsey because we don't see them on the Hot 100, we don't see them on Spotify charts. But a case could be made that people actually do listen to the albums they pay for.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 16, 2021 15:54:31 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Sept 16, 2021 15:48:56 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

But because Drake is more niche, and caters to a more specific audience, when he has an album bomb it’s a problem.

Is he more niche, or does he just have an audience that isn't necessarily conversing with many people who post here?

Niche might be the wrong word, but I’m not sure if his audience has a ton of overlap with people who listen to the current pop hits like Stay, LNX, Dua Lipa, etc, etc. Though I’m likely wrong. I just mean that when people complain about certain artists having overwhelming album bombs, it’s likely in opposition to the people making those bombs possible as not being the ‘normal influencers’.

[GW]

Sept 16, 2021 18:34:57 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Sept 16, 2021 15:54:31 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Is he more niche, or does he just have an audience that isn't necessarily conversing with many people who post here?

Niche might be the wrong word, but I’m not sure if his audience has a ton of overlap with people who listen to the current pop hits like Stay, LNX, Dua Lipa, etc, etc. Though I’m likely wrong. I just mean that when people complain about certain artists having overwhelming album bombs, it’s likely in opposition to the people making those bombs possible as not being the ‘normal influencers’.

For what it's worth, I don't think Drake's crossover appeal is strong with the queer segment of pop listeners, but I do think it's likely substantial with the rest of those who listen to the artists you mentioned.  For example, I know there are guys that listen to alternative/rock who also dig some hip-hop, like drake.  And don't mind some pop, either. Not sure how large that segment is, but it's there in the real world.

[Clode]

Sept 16, 2021 19:14:09 GMT -5 GW said:

Sept 16, 2021 18:34:57 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

Niche might be the wrong word, but I’m not sure if his audience has a ton of overlap with people who listen to the current pop hits like Stay, LNX, Dua Lipa, etc, etc. Though I’m likely wrong. I just mean that when people complain about certain artists having overwhelming album bombs, it’s likely in opposition to the people making those bombs possible as not being the ‘normal influencers’.

For what it's worth, I don't think Drake's crossover appeal is strong with the queer segment of pop listeners, but I do think it's likely substantial with the rest of those who listen to the artists you mentioned.  For example, I know there are guys that listen to alternative/rock who also dig some hip-hop, like drake.  And don't mind some pop, either. Not sure how large that segment is, but it's there in the real world.

I’m someone that considers myself a fan of Alternative, Rock and Pop but I also listen to a variety of different genres, So I know exactly how that segment of music listeners like their variety. 

[Choco]

By the time this argument ends most of the Drake songs will be off the charts, but carry on.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 16, 2021 15:54:31 GMT -5 jenglisbe said:

Sept 16, 2021 15:48:56 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

But because Drake is more niche, and caters to a more specific audience, when he has an album bomb it’s a problem.

Is he more niche, or does he just have an audience that isn't necessarily conversing with many people who post here?

I see these comments as if Pulse is somehow in a silo yet judging by comments on social media, the conversations are more or less the same. So

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 16, 2021 19:41:31 GMT -5 Choco said:

By the time this argument ends most of the Drake songs will be off the charts, but carry on.

Where’s the argument? I’m simply stating what I’ve thought was a void in the Hot 100 based on different factors and observances. I’m not trying to convince anyone on anything but am mostly just trying to explain my perspective. I know it’s not foolproof and I don’t claim to have all the answers. At the very least, it’s an interesting discussion to me and I’m enjoying people’s input on why it might or might not work. But yeah, let’s diminish every discussion that isn’t everyone agreeing to being an argument.

[thegreatdivine]

In what world is the guy who has been the most dominant figure in mainstream music in the U.S. over the last 12 years niche? The most consumed artist in the U.S. every year for the last 7 years is niche? Who has scored more hits than Drake in the last 12 years? Drake doesn't make enough appearances on Pop radio so him/his audience must be niche. Smh. It's like some of you don't exist in the actual world with some of the comments you post in here.

Please, just end this silly conversation. It's exhausting and a lot of the points y'all are bringing up are things you know Billboard will never consider because of said silliness but for some reason y'all are determined to debate a counter-point against streaming counting towards songs on the Hot 100 for some reason in the week when a new Drake album impacts the charts because of course you do.

No, Billboard will never come up with a formula to magically gift songs off an album equal number of points based on their pure sale units so they can chart on the Hot 100 when there's no way for them to determine how many times those songs were actually listened to in the course of a tracking week. I've explained why several times already and I know the people I explained it to are smart enough to understand the points I made but if you must continue this pointless debate, by all means, please, continue.

[GW]

I honestly didn't think this was a debate or an argument, felt pretty conversational, but please continue being tired and cunty. It happens to me too.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

Sept 16, 2021 21:05:13 GMT -5 thegreatdivine said:

In what world is the guy who has been the most dominant figure in mainstream music in the U.S. over the last 12 years niche? The most consumed artist in the U.S. every year for the last 7 years is niche? Who has scored more hits than Drake in the last 12 years? Drake doesn't make enough appearances on Pop radio so him/his audience must be niche. Smh. It's like some of you don't exist in the actual world with some of the comments you post in here.

Please, just end this silly conversation. It's exhausting and a lot of the points y'all are bringing up are things you know Billboard will never consider because of said silliness but for some reason y'all are determined to debate a counter-point against streaming counting towards songs on the Hot 100 for some reason in the week when a new Drake album impacts the charts because of course you do.

No, Billboard will never come up with a formula to magically gift songs off an album equal number of points based on their pure sale units so they can chart on the Hot 100 when there's no way for them to determine how many times those songs were actually listened to in the course of a tracking week. I've explained why several times already and I know the people I explained it to are smart enough to understand the points I made but if you must continue this pointless debate, by all means, please, continue.

I mean, one could consider country music listeners as being a niche audience too but you seem determined to be annoyed at a discussion that (to me at least) has enough valid points to be worthy of at least talking about. If the points you've provided that you're referring to are around not being able to determine consumption of physical albums, I already offered a counterpoint to that while acknowledging that you're not wrong.

For the record, my contribution to the discussion was never against Drake, or against streaming counting toward anything. I'm very pro-streaming counting. 100%. The reason why it comes up in a week when Drake album bombs is because rarities like this generate discussions around charts, present and past, and how things could have been different if scenarios and situations were like they are now - and the possibility of how they could be or not be depending on a variety of factors. Perhaps it'll arise again if we ever have another album reach 600k or more that does or doesn't have the same level of domination on the Hot 100.

Either way, this was all just me voicing a perspective for the sake of having a discussion but it seems to rile some people up and I don't really have anything else to add other than what I've already said.