Prince and The Billboard 200... fair?

[Carlitoz]

I'm so happy about the commercial comeback Prince has had this year. I've been to two of his shows this year already and they were just great! Awesome!! Not only he's a great songwriter, but great performer (singer and showman). Even thogh I'm a HUGE fan and love to see him cracking top 10s, I was thinking the other day if it's fair the way the Billboard 200 is counting all the albums he gives when you go to his concerts. I'm not really sure if it's accurate to count those CDs. Here are some points I was thinking about:

- I had already bought my Musicology album even before the show.
- I bought my tickets to the show with the only intention of seeing the show, not because I wanted a second copy of Musicology. Ok, I got 3 Musicology CDs now, did I want 3 copies...? No. And I'm a big fan.
- There's people who like only his old greatest hits and could care less for the his new music. Regardless, they received a copy and that copy counted towards the Billboard 200.
- They say it's part of the price, but I see it more like an imposition. Besides, how expensive was it to mass manufacture CDs and put them in a cardboard envelope without even a booklet. I doubt that is really expensive. I doubt people would've bought by themselves all the copies of Musicology that were given away at the shows.

So I guess now any record label who wants to promote its artist seeing him/her in the top ten will include a copy of a CD (single or album) with another popular product. Let's say a cereal box, a pair of jeans or a school supply. It's not that I'm comparing Prince's art and showmanship with a box of cereal. I'm just talking about products in general.

Let's say a worst case scenario. A huge product. Say there's mania for a cereal and millions of boxes are being sold all around the country each week. If Ja Rule makes a deal with that company and is able to include his CD with each box of cereal, he'll be #1 easily in the Billboard 200. Does anybody like Ja Rule these days or at least as much as to take him to #1?? I don't think so, but he would be sitting on top of the charts.

Maybe I'm exagerating, but I would like to hear your opinion. I know that if people didn't like Prince he would've not had one the most successful tours of the year with so many sold-out shows. (I think they were old sold-out, weren't they?). But I think people wanted to see and pay to see Prince live in concert, not necessarily buy a copy of Musicology.

[bluenote]

I think it is totally unfair. People Like Madonna, Janet, Britney can sell out 10 times as many concerts as Prince but their sales dont reflect on the Hot 200. I think labels that have big artists that sell out huge arenas should protest to get their albums sold with tickets as well. i dont like certain exceptions being made for 1 that are not made for all. If it were not for his concerts, his album would probably be out of the Hot 200 by now.

[Evergreen]

BlueNote said:

I think it is totally unfair.  People Like Madonna, Janet, Britney can sell out 10 times as many concerts as Prince but their sales dont reflect on the Hot 200.  I think labels that have big artists that sell out huge arenas should protest to get their albums sold with tickets as well.  i dont like certain exceptions being made for 1 that are not made for all.  If it were not for his concerts, his album would probably be out of the Hot 200 by now. 

Madonna, Janet, and Britney can't sell out 10 times as many concerts. Prince's tour will end the year as number 1, not Madonna. Please get it right!

Prince has the biggest tour of the year, please don't get it twisted.

[freekaleek]

I don't think Britney can outsell Prince in ticket sales.

[bluenote]

Dorr185 said:

Madonna, Janet, and Britney can't sell out 10 times as many concerts. Prince's tour will end the year as number 1, not Madonna. Please get it right!

Prince has the biggest tour of the year, please don't get it twisted.

Prines tour was LONGER than Madonnas and Britneys. they all played bigger venues than Prince especially Madonna. And Janet has made history with her concert sales and has always done better then Prince who hasnt had a REAL hit in over 10 years nor a Major tour. People like Janet, Madonna and Britney have all had recent successful tours. People going to see Prince are going to see some1 who hasnt done anything of this magnitude in ages. Madonna , Janet and britney all toured in 2001. When was Pricnes last tour? the early 90s? LMAO. Anytime a successful artist of the PAST does a big tour after years, and years, of being obsolete they always sell well. The 3 divas i mentioned prior have been in the spotlight for sometime now. Their overall album sales and concert sales and merchandising will make Prince blush.

[Ragin]

I like what he did. You are right that a lot fans only want to see his old stuff, they don't even give the new a chance. By putting a copy of Musicology into the concert ticket, they are much more likely to listen to it since they've paid for it.

I think it was brilliant marketing. The Billboard 200 takes into account all the crazy insane Clay fans that buy 10 copies of his CD, but you know only 1 gets listened to, so if that's fair, what Prince is doing is fair too.

That's my 2 cents.

[Evergreen]

BlueNote said:

Prines tour was LONGER than Madonnas and Britneys.  they all played bigger venues than Prince especially Madonna. And Janet has made history with her concert sales and has always done better then Prince who hasnt had a REAL hit in over 10 years nor a Major tour.  People like Janet, Madonna and Britney have all had recent successful tours.  People going to see Prince are going to see some1 who hasnt done anything of this magnitude in ages. Madonna , Janet and britney all toured in 2001.  When was Pricnes last tour? the early 90s? LMAO.  Anytime a successful artist of the PAST does a big tour after years, and years, of being obsolete they always sell well.  The 3 divas i mentioned prior have been in the spotlight for sometime now.  Their overall album sales and concert sales and merchandising will make Prince blush.

Overall albums sales? Of all of them Prince as the biggest album. Madonna has sold more albums than Prince, but Janet and Britney aren't even close to Prince.

Janet had to cancel a tour because her album was faling so miserably. Britney does NOT sell as many tickets as Prince.

Even without concert sales, Princes new LP would have easily outsold Madonna's. And Madonna's album didn't have a single successful album cut on it, while Prince went to number one on one format and did okay on Urban.

The Janet making history thing was well over ten years ago. Her album is finished without selling a million copies.

Don't try to diminish Prince's importance or say he wasn't succesful. He's easily among the 20 most successful artist ever. Britney and Janet are even in the same league as Prince. And Prince was relevant long before Madonna came around, and he's doing better than she is right now.

[bluenote]

Janets tour isnt cancelled.  Peak what you know.  She is touring in 2005.  And need to add accurately because Janet has sold alot more records than Prince in the U.S. and World Wide despite Prince having alot more albums her rate per individual album is still higher. His biggest success came from Purple rain. All of her albums were successful up until present day. And to top it off she is in the top 10 list of most successful singles artist right under Madonna. 

[WhySoSerious?]

We debated this to death before.

It's ingenius and completely fair.  Too bad Billboard caved to the pressure from others who were just pissed that they didn't come up with the brilliant plan first.

For people like him who can't bank on radio and video play anymore it's a great marketing solution to get your new music heard.

[Bob]

TCorey said:

We debated this to death before.

It's ingenius and completely fair.  Too bad Billboard caved to the pressure from others who were just pissed that they didn't come up with the brilliant plan first.

For people like him who can't bank on radio and video play anymore it's a great marketing solution to get your new music heard.

[Evergreen]

Prince has sold 36.5 million albums in the U.S. Janet as sold 24 million

[bluenote]

Dorr185 said:

Prince has sold 36.5 million albums in the U.S. Janet as sold 24 million

Janet has sold over 24 million. sh is undercertified.

[WhySoSerious?]

BlueNote said:

Janet has sold over 24 million. sh is undercertified.

Not by 12.5 million.

[mst3k]

Carlitoz said:

So I guess now any record label who wants to promote its artist seeing him/her in the top ten will include a copy of a CD (single or album) with another popular product.  Let's say a cereal box, a pair of jeans or a school supply.  It's not that I'm comparing Prince's art and showmanship with a box of cereal.  I'm just talking about products in general. 

Let's say a worst case scenario.  A huge product.  Say there's mania for a cereal and millions of boxes are being sold all around the country each week.  If Ja Rule makes a deal with that company and is able to include his CD with each box of cereal, he'll be #1 easily in the Billboard 200.  Does anybody like Ja Rule these days or at least as much as to take him to #1??  I don't think so, but he would be sitting on top of the charts.

Would SoundScan even track sales of cereal, jeans, school supplies, etc., even if a CD was included? 

Besides, thanks to the flap over what happened with Prince, I'm pretty sure that loophole has been shrunken (not quite closed).

[bluenote]

TCorey said:

Not by 12.5 million.

true but she has sold more than 24 million. and if you really want to be specific and count single sells she has sold a hell of a lot more.

[WhySoSerious?]

BlueNote said:

true but she has sold more than 24 million. and if you really want to be specific and count single sells she has sold a hell of a lot more.

You wrote she sold more. She didn't.

Anyway, that's not the point. Prince's strategy was extremely smart and shame on Billboard for trying to stifle new sales methods.

[bluenote]

TCorey said:

You wrote she sold more.  She didn't.

Anyway, that's not the point.  Prince's strategy was extremely smart and shame on Billboard for trying to stifle new sales methods.

Prince has had How many more albums out than her?


Anyway, they had to stop it because bigger acts that sell more albums without a tour would easily dominate the album chart if they added cds with every concert ticket.

[Ragin]

BlueNote said:

Prince has had How many more albums out than her? 


Anyway, they had to stop it because bigger acts that sell more albums without a tour would easily dominate the album chart if they added cds with every concert ticket. 

Who cares? What does that have to do with anything?

It's only going to be a big deal when they have a new CD out anyway. How many acts even draw well enough for it to put them very high on the charts?

It seems more like a bunch of whining from artists that know they can't draw those kinds of numbers.

[j]

TCorey said:

We debated this to death before.

Yes, but this topic here is nothing like the old one. Here we basically have a very exciting Janet vs Madonna vs Prince and who has sold more argument. What fun!

TCorey said:

For people like him who can't bank on radio and video play anymore it's a great marketing solution to get your new music heard.

By who? Those attending his concerts are those who are already fans and are predisposed to hearing new music from him. This is like Mariah selling 1 mil copies of each new album to same tired ol group of fans.

[WhySoSerious?]

j said:

By who? Those attending his concerts are those who are already fans and are predisposed to hearing new music from him. This is like Mariah selling 1 mil copies of each new album to same tired ol group of fans.

Not necessarily. Unlike us, most people don't seek out new music to listen to. They hear what's on the radio and MTV and that's pretty much it. By selling a copy of the new album with a ticket, people who are fans are now able to hear new music they might not have otherwise heard. Everyone wins.

[tidetoit]

It is an innovative marketing strategy that worked o-n-c-e. Billboard has already been deluged with complaints and has proposed to deal with it. Solution: Ticket broker must ask if the ticket buyer wants to buy a CD and there has to be a substantial difference between the ticket price with and without the CD for the sale to count.

The real question is how much did Prince' CD sales benefit from the sales strategy. Clearly several hundred thousand copies were sold that probably would not have been otherwise. It was slick and it worked but it did put one over on the Billboard 200.

[j]

TCorey said:

By selling a copy of the new album with a ticket, people who are fans are now able to hear new music they might not have otherwise heard.

???

Exactly my point. They're already fans.

[WhySoSerious?]

j said:

???

Exactly my point. They're already fans.

I don't understand what that means.

They are Prince fans, but might not otherwise have gotten to hear the music on the album. Even better, you've got a way to directly get your new music to people who you know are pre-disposed to like it. What's the problem?

[mst3k]

I think j's point was that many Prince fans would've already bought his new album anyway (that's what fans do, I assume).  ;)

[WhySoSerious?]

mst3k said:

I think j's point was that many Prince fans would've already bought his new album anyway (that's what fans do, I assume).  ;)

Have you seen the sales of his albums pre-Musicology?

They got zero radio/video play and the sales reflected it.

[mst3k]

Again, the point is that these fans like Prince enough to buy tickets to see him in concert (where, I might add, they will be exposed to songs from his new album)... these are the fans who would've bought his CD anyway (because in your words, they are pre-disposed to like it).

[WhySoSerious?]

mst3k said:

Again, the point is that these fans like Prince enough to buy tickets to see him in concert (where, I might add, they will be exposed to songs from his new album)... these are the fans who would've bought his CD anyway (because in your words, they are pre-disposed to like it).

But more people are seeing him in concert than bought his last few albums.

And I highly doubt anyone who bought the album and happens to now get another copy will be highly upset. No one loses here.

[tidetoit]

TCorey said:

 
And I highly doubt anyone who bought the album and happens to now get another copy will be highly upset.  No one loses here.

The Billboard 200s other artists lose as well as the integrity of the chart.  This sales gimmick is just the beginning of lots of other gimmicks and slight of hand/misdirection sales tactics that will sleaze up the music biz the same way the Hot 100 is sleazed up.