I think I can sum it all up here.

[Rob64]

I agree. This "Announcements/concerns" forum should be closed. If anybody has any concerns, they should PM the mods. If they have any announcements, use Offtopic forums

[Matt4319]

thisbeautifulmess said:

Another suggestion for mods- when the complaints threads start, I would suggest not replying so much. This topic has more posts from mods than members- name one thread on the r&r board that EVER had this many posts going back and forth between mods.

So you're saying the moderators shouldn't moderate as much as we do? Do you have any idea how much more chaos there would be if that happened?

thisbeautifulmess said:

So I suggest just let people VOICE their complaints here, but not get into arguments with them regarding their opinion. Just let the members have the "last say"- you'll find that you won't be spending as much time posting responses to complaints in this forum because there won't be as many member posts!

I don't think I could even count with both hands the number of issues I've asked the members' opinion before deciding on something. And if we don't respond to their points, they'll complain that we aren't listening to them.

Bengino said:

funny thing... i have nothing to say in this topic, but i am laughing at the posts (on both sides of the argument, not just one)

So you obviously have something to say, because you just said it.

jimmy74747 said:

Everyone (or I should say some of you): This is a message board, a place where we all come to discuss music, politics/sports/other issues in the lounge, or just kill some time. So what if a post gets deleted, or a topic gets locked, or you get warned. There should be greater concerns in your life than that.

Also, you cannot compare R&R moderators to the people here. Ron & company were paid to moderate the R&R board. It was part of their job. They probably didn't want to be there for the most part, and that is why they didn't post. Matt, Adam and the others are doing this because they WANT to. They are here as music fans first, moderators second, and have the right to post. The fact that they are still doing this with all these PM's they appear to be getting shows how much they want this board to succeed, and they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Remember, this board can be shut down by Matt at any second if the complaints become one too many.

Just my two cents.

*applause*

[Hervard]

Jersey said:

Now I think THIS post is the one that "sums it all up." Jimmy said it better than any of us so far, so I'd advise some of you to really pay attention to all the points in his post.

I agree. Everything Jimmy said I agree with fully.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Jersey said:

Alright stop right there. How dare you tell us not to post. You have no right to do that. And to be blunt, you don't have to like the fact that we post. You don't have to like us.

??? I thought his comment was directed more at us than at you, telling us that it *seems* like you're more in our face because you post more, aka, trying to make us understand why it seems that way. I don't believe he even implied once that the mods should post less....

[BFMR]

Matt4319 said:

So you obviously have something to say, because you just said it.

no, i'm laughing because

a) any time someone has a concern, the moderators always take a defensive state

b) some people do complain on the boards all the time (i admit it may have appeared like i did so, but that was only the last like week or so, and my new approach is to discuss my "issues" with you on an IM when i feel like there is an issue (which i have none right now))

everybody should just lighten up... I don't come the boards to find any more issues, nor to cause more shit... sometimes when it seems like i always bitch day after day, it's because the issues aren't resolved.

Matt, remember what i offered you the other day, we should get the moderators to talk with the member that has a problem to see if you can get a compromise. My only current issue is that some members are automatically assuming that some members have it for the moderators simply because they have an issue, which, at least in my case, isn't the case. So in other words, right now i don't have a problem.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I know how some of you guys always say that "This is just a message board" and "There are more important things to do in life than complain about a message board" and all that stuff and yeah, it's definately true. But you wouldn't say something like "It's just a fast-food restaurant. You shouldn't go there to expect the best and then complain when you aren't satisfied with it. You can take your business and time and money elsewhere." Yeah, that's true too but since we come to this board to discuss various stuff and whatever, we do like to know that what we do here will be worth our opinions and discussions and that the people "in charge" know what they're doing and they do it to a job that satisfies the "customers" (although unpaying, I can't think of a better word). If we get warned or banned or whatever, it's the same as getting kicked off of a fast-food property. It's not a big deal in the big picture but it's still bothersome, especially if you don't think you were deserving of that.
It's so easy for a moderator or anyone else to say that this is "just" a message board. It's true, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it if something goes down that we don't think is right. Since we're here, we might as well try to make the best of it.

Now let me add that there can be too much complaining. You wouldn't go to McDonalds and complain that they don't have carrot sticks in their big macs because they don't work that way. You have to keep the complains in line with the purpose of the board and all that.
I agree with the whole PM thing because then you don't have people adding to the problems stuff that they didn't notice before but only noticed now that someone else has complained. It's keeping things in the business of the people of whom it belongs and that's probably the way it should be.

I also think that being picked as a moderator is sort of a priviledge in that people thought you would do a good job controlling the boards. To me, you guys are lucky that you are in the position you're in because others thought that you would do a good job at it and they kinda put you in a "different light". But, at the same time, you aren't being forced to stay in that position if you aren't enjoying it or if it is too much of a hassle. Being a moderator does require responsibilites and I'm sure you know that. I'm not saying give up because you have some idiot that won't shut up and complains constantly. This is basically just a general statement in that I don't think you guys HAVE to face stuff that you don't want to. I just think that with being in authority, there are sometimes some new opinions of others that you have to face and that it should be expected of you. There will be people that will dispute decisions made by you. As long as you always use the best judgement and can always back-up everything you do, referencing, if you will, there should really be no solid problems from either side. :)

[Matt4319]

Bengino said:

no, i'm laughing because

a) any time someone has a concern, the moderators always take a defensive state

b) some people do complain on the boards all the time (i admit it may have appeared like i did so, but that was only the last like week or so, and my new approach is to discuss my "issues" with you on an IM when i feel like there is an issue (which i have none right now))

everybody should just lighten up... I don't come the boards to find any more issues, nor to cause more s**t... sometimes when it seems like i always bitch day after day, it's because the issues aren't resolved.

Matt, remember what i offered you the other day, we should get the moderators to talk with the member that has a problem to see if you can get a compromise. My only current issue is that some members are automatically assuming that some members have it for the moderators simply because they have an issue, which, at least in my case, isn't the case. So in other words, right now i don't have a problem.

Good. :)

See this topic for an announcement on how we are handling complaints in the future, which is basically what you said a couple of days ago about you were going to deal with things.

[allow that]

Again, I'll quote this to reply to the last 2 posts before Matt's because some of you don't seem to get it no matter what.

jimmy74747 said:

Everyone (or I should say some of you): This is a message board, a place where we all come to discuss music, politics/sports/other issues in the lounge, or just kill some time. So what if a post gets deleted, or a topic gets locked, or you get warned. There should be greater concerns in your life than that.

Also, you cannot compare R&R moderators to the people here. Ron & company were paid to moderate the R&R board. It was part of their job. They probably didn't want to be there for the most part, and that is why they didn't post. Matt, Adam and the others are doing this because they WANT to. They are here as music fans first, moderators second, and have the right to post. The fact that they are still doing this with all these PM's they appear to be getting shows how much they want this board to succeed, and they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Remember, this board can be shut down by Matt at any second if the complaints become one too many.

Just my two cents.

[BFMR]

Jersey said:

Again, I'll quote this to reply to the last 2 posts before Matt's because some of you don't seem to get it no matter what.

maybe you should re-read my post Adam

[allow that]

Bengino said:

maybe you should re-read my post Adam

I did read it. I'll break it down for you.

a) any time someone has a concern, the moderators always take a defensive state

No, that's not true. We listen to all concerns, and we are only defensive when repsonding to ones about personal, behind the scenes matters such as specific members being banned or specific topic being locked/not locked (not to mention accusations of partiality and whatnot) with defensiveness, how else could we repsond to "conerns" that are really none of anyone's business? That's why this forum has changed (just read the name of it... its changed). Th

b) some people do complain on the boards all the time (i admit it may have appeared like i did so, but that was only the last like week or so, and my new approach is to discuss my "issues" with you on an IM when i feel like there is an issue (which i have none right now))

I agree with you here. Except by IM, I hope you mean PM.

Matt, remember what i offered you the other day, we should get the moderators to talk with the member that has a problem to see if you can get a compromise.

This request seems a little out of field to me. Each time we make a decision about the boards, we ask for people's opinions first... such as when we decide to create new forums and such. When people make a technical request, like in the calendar topic, we try to accomodate them. And this will continue.

However, there cannot be an in-depth conversation every time one member is slightly less than 100% thrilled with a minor decision like locking a topic. I'm talking about behind the scenes stuff that is not everyone's business, such as the "Why was Rob banned topic?" (And that's an example, I'm not talking about anything particular in there).

As you said, if you think a topic was locked wrongly, PM one of us and we'll review it. But PMs about warnings pertaining to anyone other than yourself should not be a concern to anyone.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Jersey said:

Again, I'll quote this to reply to the last 2 posts before Matt's because some of you don't seem to get it no matter what.

Is that a reference to me too? I hope not because that's basically the point of my post. It IS just a message board but... ah, just reread my last reply over again. The section where I go on about the McDonalds analogy and stuff.
It's not about "getting stuff" because I get it. I agree but I disagree and it's NOT an attack on moderators or anyone else. It's how I see things.

[BFMR]

Jersey said:

I agree with you here. Except by IM, I hope you mean PM.

nope, i have opted out of PM, i will IM Matt instead like i have said, even if it is much later then i'd like

Jersey said:

This request seems a little out of field to me. Each time we make a decision about the boards, we ask for people's opinions first... such as when we decide to create new forums and such. When people make a technical request, like in the calendar topic, we try to accomodate them. And this will continue.

i know that some people don't have access to IM, but the idea of a compromise could be good if the issue is with one member, think about it this way... you offer the idea to all the members because one person has the issue, then the idea is split 50/50 some or for, some are totally against, how does that get you anywhere? That's all i mean about the compromise (and for the compromise i am under no circumstances talking about a member banning or locked topics whatever)


In closing, as i have said, my only current concern isn't one to do with any moderator, member banning, or topics being closed, but more to these "brown-nosers" (sorry to use the term, but "i call them as i see them" but not mentionning any names). I just feel that some concerns are taken as criticism towards moderators (and i'll grant you that some of them are) but it should be no more of their business then the ones who complain (as i've read many times now).

that's all i gotta say about that

[allow that]

All I'll say is this.... IM's should not have anything officially to do with the boards. This is not a country or a company. Moderating is not a career. Most people here do not have the time to discuss the boards off of them, nor would they care enough to. Issues should be dealt with quickly and promptly, and not debated 100 times over. It should not be a long and time consuming process. If you'd like to talk about the boards in am IM service, that's fine. But that should not be the standard for all members. And I am NOT opening up my AIM account to people who want to sit and talk about the boards.... whether it be in a positive, negative, or neutral way.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

I agree with that too. If I were moderator, discussions about the boards (the physical boards) would be restricted to PM via the boards. However, discussion about the boards and stuff would still be allowed on MSN for me. I just wouldn't want to open it and get 50 messages from 50 people complaining or commenting on something on the boards. If it's a general discussion, that would be fine for me.

[BFMR]

Jersey said:

All I'll say is this.... IM's should not have anything officially to do with the boards. This is not a country or a company. Moderating is not a career. Most people here do not have the time to discuss the boards off of them, nor would they care enough to. Issues should be dealt with quickly and promptly, and not debated 100 times over. It should not be a long and time consuming process. If you'd like to talk about the boards in am IM service, that's fine. But that should not be the standard for all members. And I am NOT opening up my AIM account to people who want to sit and talk about the boards.... whether it be in a positive, negative, or neutral way.

hey i'm not saying EVERYBODY should take this route, but it is the one that seems (to me) to at least get the response i seek when i have a concern, i have sent 2 PM's and hadn't received a response from it, that is one thing i didn't appreciate, but not enough to go and make an "issue" out of it, i know moderating is hard, well, maybe not hard, but it isn't like just being a member.

I'm not saying i'm IM'ing Matt every day about something that pisses me off or anything, more then likely the only time i will be IM'ing him with an issue will be when a personal attack is made towards me, heck, even if i'd like one certain topic closed, i haven't complained to Matt about it, nor here, the only thing i can hope is that someone soon will realize that the topic serves no purpose and will be closed (much like the "Is Christina the supreme being?" was closed which i believe has more to do with what may be generated in there rather then it's usefulness)

[Rob64]

I agree about not IM'ing mods about board issues. I'm sure that on many occasions they just don't want to deal with any crap, so they just log onto msn to chat with their friends... not abotu the boards. They won't wanna get bombarded with message board problems by IM. The advantage of using PM's is that they can check them when they're ready to start tackling the problems. They might not always be in the mood to talk about message board problems, so it's better to send it by PM.

Sorry Matt! LOL! Matt, we had fun though the other day right? When we played the initial game in the confie? That was fun.

>:(.... ;)

[thisbeautifulmess]

mst3k1 said:

Whoa... go back and re-read thisbeautifulmess's post. He never said that the mods shouldn't be posting so much. He just said that compared to the old R&R boards, some posters (a small percentage, I think) might have trouble adapting to the mods being on the boards so much. He also said these people need to accept that's the way it's going to be, and I agree. :)

That is exactly what I was saying. I'm saying that it's a different situation, and we AND the moderators need to adjust to it.

I was also giving the mods advice FOR THEIR OWN GOOD. I've been gone 6 hours, and yet there are a bunch more posts regarding this issue! Maybe being a moderator means taking in suggestions/criticism without taking it personally. And if they don't want to discuss it more, then why keep posting responses to it? How many posts would have made in this thread in the past few hours if the mods hadn't commented- probably hardly any. So if you mods want a thread no longer be talked about- just don't post any more in it and it will die naturally!

But the first response to my post pretty much proves my point- I got it reemed down my throat for making a comment/suggestion/criticism. And I saw the same derogatory tone posted to several other posters after me. So don't you dare complain towards me when you respond with an attack 100 times more direct than anything that I ever said.

Go ahead ban me if you want- I really don't care. My life will go on just fine if I don't have a message board to post to. Am I appreciate to the mods for all the time they put into this board- you bet!!! Even if I don't come out and say it, I still hold good feelings to those who are mods. But if I don't like the boards, I am free to leave. And that's the same with the mods- if they don't like being mods, they are free to leave. No one's forcing them to stay!

[thisbeautifulmess]

Matt4319 said:

So you're saying the moderators shouldn't moderate as much as we do? Do you have any idea how much more chaos there would be if that happened?



I don't think I could even count with both hands the number of issues I've asked the members' opinion before deciding on something. And if we don't respond to their points, they'll complain that we aren't listening to them.

And that makes it sound like you need to baby them- and I'm saying don't do that! If some members here aren't mature enough to realize that you guys don't have the time to respond to every single post directed to you guys, then they don't deserve a response!

But it takes two to argue/debate, correct? So I'm saying if you are tired of the argue/debating, just stop responding!

Really, I'm just trying to help you guys out here!

[allow that]

thisbeautifulmess said:

Go ahead ban me if you want- I really don't care. My life will go on just fine if I don't have a message board to post to. Am I appreciate to the mods for all the time they put into this board- you bet!!! Even if I don't come out and say it, I still hold good feelings to those who are mods. But if I don't like the boards, I am free to leave. And that's the same with the mods- if they don't like being mods, they are free to leave. No one's forcing them to stay!

Wow, no one's getting banned it's really not that big a deal.

Perhaps I misread your post, since you say you never meant to tell us to stop posting. I'm sorry for misreading it, but let's just say if someone DID tell us we shouldn't post just because we're moderators (which correctly or incorrectly is what I thought I was being told), how would you reply to that without coming off as defensive.

And I would LOVE it if we could just avoid these topics and let them die down naturally. However, the result of that would be more and more topics popping up with titles like "Why aren't the mods paying attention to what we're syaing?"

So, that brings up to the sticky topic at the top of this forum. Amazing that it's been up there almost all day, with only 30 reads, when these "drama" topics keep on going.

[Matt4319]

Bengino said:

nope, i have opted out of PM, i will IM Matt instead like i have said, even if it is much later then i'd like

I'd rather you PM me. I might not be on AIM or MSN or whatever when you want to talk to me, and sending a PM ensures that I get it the next time I log on to the boards.

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Jersey said:

So, that brings up to the sticky topic at the top of this forum. Amazing that it's been up there almost all day, with only 30 reads, when these "drama" topics keep on going.

Maybe it's because only 30 people actually care, or less than that! There hasn't been more than 30 people that replied to the "drama" topics so I don't see what the surprise or amazement is.

[BFMR]

Matt4319 said:

I'd rather you PM me. I might not be on AIM or MSN or whatever when you want to talk to me, and sending a PM ensures that I get it the next time I log on to the boards.

once again, i'll quote myself "i have not received any response" so if with my two PM's i sent i didn't receive any response to it (hell even a "K, i'll look into it" would be appreciated) so i'd rather wait as long as it needs to talk to you personally

[Devil Marlena Nylund]

Or you can just PM him on the boards and then ask him to talk to you personally via the PM if you think there is more to discuss. I wouldn't think there would be anything to discuss if it was just "X did this and I think it's wrong. Wanna look into it?"

[Matt4319]

Bengino said:

once again, i'll quote myself "i have not received any response" so if with my two PM's i sent i didn't receive any response to it (hell even a "K, i'll look into it" would be appreciated) so i'd rather wait as long as it needs to talk to you personally

It's still no, because if I let you talk about board issues through AIM/MSN, it would be an invitation for everyone to do so. I will try to acknowledge receipt of messages more often though (of course, if you go in your outbox and see the little envelope with a purple arrow in front of it, that means I've read it).

[Sean]

LOL this is kinda entertaining. The more the mods post, the worse it seems to get!

I agree with pretty much everything thisbeautifulmess posted... they're sensible and helpful suggestions which if taken would lead to a lot less arguing and bitching.

The way I see it... the mods have the responsibility to guide the board in whatever direction is appropriate... not everyone is gonna agree with every decision but that's the way it is. By continuing the discussion with everyone that complains just ends up in a never ending circle and doesn't resolve anything. It's like when your boss tells you to do something, you do it... you don't bitch and say how things should be done. That's how it needs to be, there are ways to do it without coming off arrogant but ensuring that bitching is kept to a minimum. If people wanna have a bitch session, do it off the boards please.

[jond7699]

MB said:

I also want to add a theory on the complaints. I think people are complaining because they know that people younger than them or people that were once on the same level as them are moderators so it's probably an issue of jealousy. Had Matt brought someone in that no one except him knew, they would probably be respected because there would be nothing really known about them beforehand.

I have no idea who Josh is or Adam Or Tcorey. I was only an occasinal observer at the R&R boards so maybe I can add a fresh prospective. And Adam I disagree with you saying no one respects you. I do. No one is going to agree with you 100% but that is different than not having respect. I am gonna make this short & sweet all I wanted to do is tell you guys you are doing a good job (mods).

[Rob64]

Sean said:

If people wanna have a bitch session, do it off the boards please.

This forum is made for concerns. Also, the mods don't want us to talk to them about the board, outside of the boards. (they said it in this very topic)

Sean said:

It's like when your boss tells you to do something, you do it... you don't bitch and say how things should be done.

I do it because it's my boss and I'm being paid to do it. The mods here aren't my boss and I'm not being paid to post. They are just here to keep things in line. They aren't our bosses. Even the mods would agree with that. (they better ;))

[allow that]

Sean said:

If people wanna have a bitch session, do it off the boards please.

Rob64 said:

This forum is made for concerns. Also, the mods don't want us to talk to them about the board, outside of the boards. (they said it in this very topic)

I don't think Sean was referring to contacting the mods when he said take your bitch sessions off the boards. I think what he meant was more along the lines of "if you have personal problems with the boards, talk about it amongst yourselves but not on the boards."