Alternative in trouble?

[atlantaboy]

Hey just noticed that there were three recent threads on this board about markets droppin their Alternative stations (Atlanta, Orlando, Frederickburg VA)...it's beginnin to look like markets can no longer support both an Active Rock station and an Alternative station cause "heritage Alternative" (Smashing Pumpkins, Foo Fighters, Pearl Jam, STP, etc.) is bein "eaten up" by Modern AC or Triple A

Charleston SC recently dropped its "heritage" Alternative station and its Hot AC (WALC) became more Alternative in response...Chicago's Alternative station has a rating of less than 2.0, and I think WBCN/Boston is pretty low in ratings too...NYC completely dropped Alternative for a while but brought it back in a modified format (I think)

[banet2001]

Alternative radio left me behind several years ago when they decided to promote big label commercial rock bands rather than promote interesting and creative acts who are pushing the envelope of mainstream music. My listening is far closer to Triple A than alternative rock these days, so it is not surprising that others are leaving alternative rock as well.

Over the years, I have noticed a reduced attendance at alternative rock station promoted holiday shows. About ten years ago, our local holiday show would sell out an arena. A few years later, there were plenty of empty seats in the arena. A few years ago, the show was shifted to a ballroom due to reduced attendance.

It seems like alternative rock needs to shift its music to fit into what 2008 listeners want.

[Crushcrushchris]

The problem with K-Rock here is pretty much the same.

There was one point a few weeks ago where the top 20 songs read like this...

LINKIN PARK What I've Done 57 plays
FOO FIGHTERS The Pretender
WHITE STRIPES Icky Thump
RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS Tell Me Baby
RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS Snow (Hey Oh)
PARAMORE Misery Business
BREAKING BENJAMIN Breath
SEETHER Fake It
EDDIE VEDDER Hard Sun
THREE DAYS GRACE Never Too Late
TOOL The Pot
FINGER ELEVEN Paralyzer
FOO FIGHTERS Best of You
RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS Dani California
INCUBUS Anna Molly
INCUBUS Dig
INCUBUS Oil And Water
FOO FIGHTERS Long Road To Ruin
LINKIN PARK Bleed It Out
LINKIN PARK Shadow Of The Day

3 Linkin Park songs, 3 Red Hot Chili Peppers songs, 3 Incubus, 3 Foo Fighters songs.

Even if I happened to like some of the artists/songs, that's overkill on all of those artists.

That's why any chance I get, I try and listen to satellite radio because they play all sorts of stuff including stuff from unsigned artists.

You would think that if terrestrial radio were competing with satellite radio or at the very least attempting to, that they would try and play some of the artists that you do find on satellite...and these are major artists that are being omitted from some of these playlists.

[tico]

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the nu-metal sound began taking over and that ticked off a lot of alternative fans. It started becoming harder for lighter-fare acts like Dave Matthews Band and Sarah McLachlan to be heard next to Limp Bizkit and Godsmack.

[atlantaboy]

Jan 21, 2008 19:29:46 GMT -5 @tico said:

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the nu-metal sound began taking over and that ticked off a lot of alternative fans. It started becoming harder for lighter-fare acts like Dave Matthews Band and Sarah McLachlan to be heard next to Limp Bizkit and Godsmack.

Yeah I think the problem is that today, if you wanna hear the Dave Matthews Band or Sarah McLachlan, most markets have either a Hot AC or Triple A that covers it...if you wanna hear Disturbed, Godsmack, etc. you can listen to Rock or Active Rock - so Alternative really has no place to go anymore unless there's no Rock or Active Rock in the market

WNNX/Atlanta for example had very few songs to itself (Long Road To Ruin by the Foo Fighters, Big Casino by Jimmy Eat World, and Everything's Magic by Angels and Airwaves)...with the latter two songs fading in popularity, the only thing keepin WNNX goin would've been more mellow songs by the Foo Fighters, and IMO that's not enough to keep a radio station (or format) alive

[oscillations.]

I actually am unconcerned about the fate of alternative as it stands. They refuse to do what the format originally prided itself in doing - breaking new, egdy artists, in the tradition of college radio & pirate radio before it. There was a brief period in the mid 2000s where things seemed to improve a bit, but its back to the same bleak erstwhile active rock-leaning format it was in 2001. I "understand" from a business point that at this point they will throw a bone to the 18-24 LCD masses in order to salvage what they can (not that it is working, really), but because the format gives me so little to invest in, I cannot help but secretly think that they will get what they have long deserved. If Alternative dies as a radio format, the bigger 90s songs will just move to open minded gold/classic stations & the oddball acts' legacy hits will survive via people's own music collections and satellite radio. There are a rare few who would actually mourn the loss of this format in all its current mediocrity. We'll all survive. For those who still depend on terrestrial Alternative for their tastemaking, then maybe its sudden absence would nudge them into exploring less familiar, and untested waters. Or they just might drop out of music culture altogether, but most people would get bored with their own limited archives pretty quickly.

Like banet stated, Alternative has little to offer the progressive listener in 2008.

[Crushcrushchris]

Jan 21, 2008 19:29:46 GMT -5 @tico said:

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the nu-metal sound began taking over and that ticked off a lot of alternative fans. It started becoming harder for lighter-fare acts like Dave Matthews Band and Sarah McLachlan to be heard next to Limp Bizkit and Godsmack.

I might be in the minority when I say it, but I personally like active rock and alternative rock to be lumped together on a station much like K-Rock NYC was before they changed their format to more of a classic rock format a couple of years ago.

You had Mudvayne in one hand, Interpol on the other.

People missed the point of that station because it obviously didn't last...but the reason I liked it is because you heard a lot of different artists and not just the core artists like you hear now.

[atlantaboy]

^I think the prob. is that the Foo Fighters and Chili Peppers (and bands like Modest Mouse and Death Cab For Cutie) mostly have completely different fans than Breaking Benjamin, Disturbed, Tool, Metallica etc. - WEND/Charlotte is doin pretty well...they don't have any other Modern Rock stations in their market though, so they'll play Chasing Cars by Snow Patrol, followed by Nothing Else Matters by Metallica, followed by Breath by Breaking Benjamin, followed by Down With The Sickness by Disturbed - seemed really weird to me (when I lived there), but if you're the only Modern Rock station in the market, I guess it works

[atlantaboy]

Jan 22, 2008 18:46:41 GMT -5 oscillations. said:

If Alternative dies as a radio format, the bigger 90s songs will just move to open minded gold/classic stations & the oddball acts' legacy hits will survive via people's own music collections and satellite radio. There are a rare few who would actually mourn the loss of this format in all its current mediocrity.

Really dont' think Pearl Jam, Chili Peppers, Dave Matthews Band, Foo Fighters, Bush, etc. will ever die out or go exclusively to satellite...they're just movin (in many markets) to Triple A and Modern AC (even Classic Rock in some markets esp. Pearl Jam), so IMO these markets don't have any need for heritage Alternative anymore

[jvandyck87]

Jan 22, 2008 18:46:41 GMT -5 oscillations. said:

There was a brief period in the mid 2000s where things seemed to improve a bit, but its back to the same bleak erstwhile active rock-leaning format it was in 2001.

Wasn't that like the peak of emo? I think that might have been my least favorite period on alternative. Plus, outside of the top 5, alternative still features a decently interesting mix of artists. And when you say that alternative has too many active rock artists, I don't think that's necessarily true --- it just has bad taste in active rock artists. The alternative chart chooses to be loyal to acts like Three Days Grace and Kid Rock, but has no interest in artists like Hurt and Fair To Midland (these bands are to active rock what Muse and the new Silverchair stuff are to alternative...full of progressive flourishes and absolutely epic albums). Same is true with Active rock's taste in their alternative-leaning artists (My Chemical Romance over Muse and Silverchair).

[My Life Is A Stereo]

That's one reason I love my Calgary radio stations. We have an alternative station that really does throw eclectic into the mix. They of course will have the mainstays like Foo and Linkin Park, but you can also find Attack In Black, Moby, Kings Of Leon, Daft Punk, Danko Jones, Stars, Tegan and Sara, City and Colour, Ill Scarlett and a host of others who dont necessarily get the exposure that the BIG groups do.

Also, we just got a classic alternative station. When that came on I just about fainted. Now I can turn on the radio and hear classic songs from the Pumpkins, or PJ, or REM , i even heard Mirror in The Bathroom last week by the English Beat. I'm happy to be Canadian as alternative sometimes feels to have more of a home here than in the US but that's probably because with the population of the US and soooo many POP culture kids it sometimes gets harder to identify what really goes over with the Alt crowd. So they stick with whats guaranteed ...... the next Foo single.

Speaking of , quickly off topic, if you havent had a chance to hear Foo's remake of Band on The Run, check it out, its really good. Its from Radio 1 Established 1967, the album. The had one group cover a song from each year that the station has been around. There are a few good ones on there and some interesting bands, including Kaiser Chiefs, The Twang and a host of others.

[Pipa]

Ah, you must listen to CFEX. I've never listened to it but from what I see it has a great playlist.

[My Life Is A Stereo]

that would be it. They call it X92. For as much i even listen to radio, that and the Classic Alt station are the only ones I ever have on. Most of the music I hear is from what I search out on the net.

[unicorns]

Yeah I noticed my local alternative station in Orlando (O'Rock 105.9) went poof and was replaced with a mix station.

That's what happens when almost every rock song out right now sounds the same IMO.

[My Life Is A Stereo]

Jan 26, 2008 8:41:56 GMT -5 @unicorns said:

Yeah I noticed my local alternative station in Orlando (O'Rock 105.9) went poof and was replaced with a mix station.

That's what happens when almost every rock song out right now sounds the same IMO.

Actually its that the radio stations are only willing to PLAY the songs that sound the same. Alt wouldnt have as big a problem if they ever remembered that they are alternative......doesnt mean it needs to be another nu-metal song.

[atlantaboy]

Jan 26, 2008 18:57:36 GMT -5 My Life Is A Stereo said:

Jan 26, 2008 8:41:56 GMT -5 @unicorns said:

Yeah I noticed my local alternative station in Orlando (O'Rock 105.9) went poof and was replaced with a mix station.

That's what happens when almost every rock song out right now sounds the same IMO.

Actually its that the radio stations are only willing to PLAY the songs that sound the same. Alt wouldnt have as big a problem if they ever remembered that they are alternative......doesnt mean it needs to be another nu-metal song.

The Alternative stations that are "going under" though are the ones that sound too much like Triple A/Modern AC though (cause listeners are just goin to Triple A or Modern/Hot AC)...the ones that play hard rock/metal are doin pretty well as long as they're not competing with an Active Rock station in that market IMO

[mrclimbfall20]

Jan 22, 2008 20:49:50 GMT -5 Crushcrushchris said:

Jan 21, 2008 19:29:46 GMT -5 @tico said:

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the nu-metal sound began taking over and that ticked off a lot of alternative fans. It started becoming harder for lighter-fare acts like Dave Matthews Band and Sarah McLachlan to be heard next to Limp Bizkit and Godsmack.

I might be in the minority when I say it, but I personally like active rock and alternative rock to be lumped together on a station much like K-Rock NYC was before they changed their format to more of a classic rock format a couple of years ago.

You had Mudvayne in one hand, Interpol on the other.

People missed the point of that station because it obviously didn't last...but the reason I liked it is because you heard a lot of different artists and not just the core artists like you hear now.

That makes two of us then. Radio is a mess right now lol

[Deleted]

Not only do I hold issue with the overabundance of Active Rock lately, but the chart is extremely slow moving now as well.

[Marv]

Mediabase just moved KYSR to the Alternative panel, which is certainly a boost for the format, but does that make any sense?

[atlantaboy]

Feb 27, 2008 16:36:49 GMT -5 Marv said:

Mediabase just moved KYSR to the Alternative panel, which is certainly a boost for the format, but does that make any sense?

KYSR has pretty low ratings though (2.0 or lower I think)...it's weird cause ATL had a similar station that just went under (99X), but I think that's cause ATL also has a Triple A - thinkin that in markets without significant Triple A's, this kind of "soft/heritage Alternative" format that KYSR is doin might become a trend...WBOS/Boston recently flipped from traditional Triple A to a similar "heritage Alternative" format as KYSR...but seriously doubt most markets can support both a "heritage/soft Alternative" station AND a current-oriented Triple A (not sure how San Diego's doin with that...)

The "model" Alternative station in L. A. is still KROQ, though IMO - it's got much higher ratings, and a playlist which is much closer to the Alternative chart

[mrclimbfall20]

Feb 27, 2008 18:22:35 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Feb 27, 2008 16:36:49 GMT -5 Marv said:

Mediabase just moved KYSR to the Alternative panel, which is certainly a boost for the format, but does that make any sense?

KYSR has pretty low ratings though (2.0 or lower I think)...it's weird cause ATL had a similar station that just went under (99X), but I think that's cause ATL also has a Triple A - thinkin that in markets without significant Triple A's, this kind of "soft/heritage Alternative" format that KYSR is doin might become a trend...WBOS/Boston recently flipped from traditional Triple A to a similar "heritage Alternative" format as KYSR...but seriously doubt most markets can support both a "heritage/soft Alternative" station AND a current-oriented Triple A (not sure how San Diego's doin with that...)

The "model" Alternative station in L. A. is still KROQ, though IMO - it's got much higher ratings, and a playlist which is much closer to the Alternative chart

Are you talking about KPRI? If so, they don't make much damage in ratings since they had the weakest signal in San Diego. They had a 1.4 rating in Fall. Here's an interesting article about the station getting a new antenna on 2/13/08.

KPRI Transmitter Move Improves San Diego Radio Market Signal
San Diego’s independent radio station 102.1 KPRI moves its transmitting antenna to a new site atop Mt. Soledad in La Jolla. Chief Operating Officer Jonathan Schwartz comments: “Broadcasting from the new site gives KPRI a signal that is competitive with all of the other major stations in the San Diego market.” The move happens at noon today.

The transmitter move caps an eleven-year campaign by KPRI to improve its signal, to serve more people, and thus to even better serve the public interest. “There were a number of hurdles for us,” said Schwartz. “In addition to getting approval of the Federal Communications Commission, we also had to get permission from Mexico’s “FCC” because the San Diego market is so close to the Mexican border. It took a long time, but eventually the two governments agreed.” Schwartz was the chief negotiator for KPRI, noting: “We took each issue as it came up and worked on it until it was resolved. The result is a much better KPRI listening experience for more people in more places.”

“KPRI’s transmitter site improvement does not change the fact that we continue to be licensed to the City of Encinitas. We’re not changing our city of license, nor our commitment to Encinitas,” said Schwartz, adding: “In fact, by moving our antenna we are making KPRI’s signal more competitive. Starting now, we’re serving an estimated 2.4 million people, many of whom have not been able to hear us they way they would like. We are sure that this enhancement will allow us to even better serve the City of Encinitas and our surrounding service area.”

Because Mt. Soledad is more centrally located closer to the population center of the San Diego radio market, Scwhart Schwartzz said the result is “more people will be able to listen to us more often, more reliably, in more places. Listeners everywhere will notice that in-car reception is better. Many will also be able to pick us up inside steel buildings so that they can listen during work. Entire areas of the San Diego market that just couldn’t hear us because of terrain will now be able to listen. We anticipate this will give us a chance to improve our audience ratings, making us a stronger voice in the San Diego radio market, and helping us to do an even better job serving the public interest.”

Mt. Soledad is used as a transmission site by most of San Diego highest rated radio stations including KMYI, KYXY, KLQV, KIOZ, KIFM, and KFMB-FM. 102.1 KPRI is owned and operated by San Diego based Compass Radio Group, a private firm controlled by local residents Jonathan Schwartz and Robert Hughes.

[atlantaboy]

^Yeah I was thinkin that KSCF (Sophie station) was classified as Alternative and played soft/heritage Alternative, alongside a Triple A (KPRI) in the market, but just looked up San Diego and realized that KSCF is classified as Hot AC (and their music is pretty much standard HAC, not the "soft Alternative" playlist that they started out with...)

So thinkin it might be true that soft/heritage Alternative (like KYSR, WBOS, etc.) only works when there's no strong Triple A station in the market competin with it...which explains I guess why it didn't work in ATL (with 99X)

[souldrift]

Jan 22, 2008 17:35:05 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Jan 21, 2008 19:29:46 GMT -5 @tico said:

In the late 90s and early 2000s, the nu-metal sound began taking over and that ticked off a lot of alternative fans. It started becoming harder for lighter-fare acts like Dave Matthews Band and Sarah McLachlan to be heard next to Limp Bizkit and Godsmack.

Yeah I think the problem is that today, if you wanna hear the Dave Matthews Band or Sarah McLachlan, most markets have either a Hot AC or Triple A that covers it...if you wanna hear Disturbed, Godsmack, etc. you can listen to Rock or Active Rock - so Alternative really has no place to go anymore unless there's no Rock or Active Rock in the market

WNNX/Atlanta for example had very few songs to itself (Long Road To Ruin by the Foo Fighters, Big Casino by Jimmy Eat World, and Everything's Magic by Angels and Airwaves)...with the latter two songs fading in popularity, the only thing keepin WNNX goin would've been more mellow songs by the Foo Fighters, and IMO that's not enough to keep a radio station (or format) alive

WNNX was the only station in Atlanta playing Muse also, for what it's worth.

[jvandyck87]

Mediabase just flipped a handful of Alternative and Heritage Rock stations to Active Rock today. WJRR, WNFZ, WHRL, WBSX, KIOC, KMOD, KAZR, KISS, WHDR, etc. There may have been more from each panel, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

[Slinky]

Craziness. This is the first time I've ever seen the Active Rock panel larger than the Alternative one.

I have to wonder why Mediabase even bothers with a mainstream Rock chart. It only has 24 stations and most of them would fit in with the Active Rock chart anyway. The remainder could be classified as Classic Rock and contribute to that chart. Even Triple A has more monitored stations than Rock does. The Rock/Active Rock labels used to mean something, but not so much anymore.

[EvanJ]

Well the Arbitron ratings still have a Rock classification separate from Active Rock, so why should Mediabase be any different?

[atlantaboy]

Mar 26, 2008 1:21:30 GMT -5 Slinky said:

Craziness. This is the first time I've ever seen the Active Rock panel larger than the Alternative one.

I have to wonder why Mediabase even bothers with a mainstream Rock chart. It only has 24 stations and most of them would fit in with the Active Rock chart anyway. The remainder could be classified as Classic Rock and contribute to that chart. Even Triple A has more monitored stations than Rock does. The Rock/Active Rock labels used to mean something, but not so much anymore.

Yeah I think the prob. is that there is no Classic Rock chart (most Classic Rock stations play no currents)...I'm thinkin that mainstream Rock is prob. a small-market type format, where classic rock-type stations cover new rock hits as well as old ones - (in other words, there are only 24 monitored mainstream Rock stations, but the chart prob. represents tons of other stations in smaller markets that prob. look to the mainstream Rock chart when makin their programmin selections)...just a guess though lol

[atlantaboy]

Mar 26, 2008 1:21:30 GMT -5 Slinky said:

Craziness. This is the first time I've ever seen the Active Rock panel larger than the Alternative one.

I'm thinkin Alternative is shrinkin (in general) as Triple A is growin...there are a whole bunch of medium-large market Triple A's that for whatever reason (not sure why) aren't even bein monitored - and more and more Triple A's are becomin Alternative-based rather than classic-rock-based

[Slinky]

Mar 26, 2008 17:49:25 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Mar 26, 2008 1:21:30 GMT -5 Slinky said:

Craziness. This is the first time I've ever seen the Active Rock panel larger than the Alternative one.

I have to wonder why Mediabase even bothers with a mainstream Rock chart. It only has 24 stations and most of them would fit in with the Active Rock chart anyway. The remainder could be classified as Classic Rock and contribute to that chart. Even Triple A has more monitored stations than Rock does. The Rock/Active Rock labels used to mean something, but not so much anymore.

Yeah I think the prob. is that there is no Classic Rock chart (most Classic Rock stations play no currents)...I'm thinkin that mainstream Rock is prob. a small-market type format, where classic rock-type stations cover new rock hits as well as old ones - (in other words, there are only 24 monitored mainstream Rock stations, but the chart prob. represents tons of other stations in smaller markets that prob. look to the mainstream Rock chart when makin their programmin selections)...just a guess though lol

10 years ago, I probably would have agreed with you, but most small market stations have gone to 90% classic rock at this point. I can't even tell you the last time I heard a mainstream rock station. They're pretty much non-existent in this part of the country. Not too many stations playing the Stones and Beatles next to Seether anymore.

[atlantaboy]

Mar 28, 2008 22:23:16 GMT -5 Slinky said:

Mar 26, 2008 17:49:25 GMT -5 atlantaboy said:

Yeah I think the prob. is that there is no Classic Rock chart (most Classic Rock stations play no currents)...I'm thinkin that mainstream Rock is prob. a small-market type format, where classic rock-type stations cover new rock hits as well as old ones - (in other words, there are only 24 monitored mainstream Rock stations, but the chart prob. represents tons of other stations in smaller markets that prob. look to the mainstream Rock chart when makin their programmin selections)...just a guess though lol

10 years ago, I probably would have agreed with you, but most small market stations have gone to 90% classic rock at this point. I can't even tell you the last time I heard a mainstream rock station. They're pretty much non-existent in this part of the country. Not too many stations playing the Stones and Beatles next to Seether anymore.

Yeah I actually hear them a lot in rural areas in Pennsylvania and Western Virginia (when I have to drive from ATL to Boston)...they play Zeppelin or Aerosmith mixed in with new 3 Doors Down or Lenny Kravitz - but ur right that they might not fit in with the "Mainstream Rock" chart cause I don't think they play a lot of Seether, Puddle Of Mudd, etc.