Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2011 6:38:04 GMT -5
Let's just recap this shall we?
Janet Jackson's Hot 100 top tens: 1986-2001. Michael Jackson's Hot 100 top tens: 1971-2001.
Janet Jackson's Hot 100 top forties: 1986-2008. Michael Jackson's Hot 100 top forties: 1971-2010.
So even Spree's bizarre argument doesn't hold up. I'd say that's about the end of that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2011 10:00:56 GMT -5
I did read so slap some duct tape on that snarky mouth. Michael's pre-Off the Wall albums had some major hits on them even if the albums themselves aren't on the level of his later albums. Janet's pre-Control albums were total bombs with no crossover hits. She certainly had nothing anywhere near a "Ben" on those albums. Clearly you did not read, because if you did, you wouldn't still be hitting that "Post Reply" button as if what you're saying is relevant. I am speaking on their breakout albums. Ben is NOT Michael's breakout album. Neither is Got To Be There, Music And Me, or Forever, Michael regardless of WHAT they sold. Janet's releases prior to Control each featured a top ten R&B song, which was a hit considering she wasn't marketed as a crossover artist, but an R&B artist. Furthermore, her focus was not music, it was acting. And yet none of that changes the fact that Michael was a relevant pop star for several years before Off the Wall (regardless of that being tagged as his "breakout" album). Before Control, Janet was not a relevant pop star.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 19, 2011 14:04:59 GMT -5
Clearly you did not read, because if you did, you wouldn't still be hitting that "Post Reply" button as if what you're saying is relevant. I am speaking on their breakout albums. Ben is NOT Michael's breakout album. Neither is Got To Be There, Music And Me, or Forever, Michael regardless of WHAT they sold. Janet's releases prior to Control each featured a top ten R&B song, which was a hit considering she wasn't marketed as a crossover artist, but an R&B artist. Furthermore, her focus was not music, it was acting. And yet none of that changes the fact that Michael was a relevant pop star for several years before Off the Wall (regardless of that being tagged as his "breakout" album). Before Control, Janet was not a relevant pop star. And what you're saying is still irrelevant to my font. I am speaking on their breakout albums. Funny how Michael often excluded those pre-OTW songs in his tour set lists. That was for a reason. And before Control, Janet was one of the biggest childhood stars of her time. That is undeniable.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jun 19, 2011 14:30:53 GMT -5
And yet none of that changes the fact that Michael was a relevant pop star for several years before Off the Wall (regardless of that being tagged as his "breakout" album). Before Control, Janet was not a relevant pop star. And what you're saying is still irrelevant to my font. I am speaking on their breakout albums. Funny how Michael often excluded those pre-OTW songs in his tour set lists. That was for a reason. And before Control, Janet was one of the biggest childhood stars of her time. That is undeniable. Michael had a Hot 100 #1 and a Hot 100 #2 before OTW, as well as being the most famous member of the Jackson 5. Being a child TV actress doesn't stack up. Sorry.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Jun 19, 2011 14:37:35 GMT -5
^ We get it. You think Janet's a joke. *broken record skip* *broken record skip*
Jesus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2011 14:41:48 GMT -5
Like Janet's appearances on Fame and Good Times add up to the amount of fame Michael achieved as the lead singer of the Jackson 5 and with solo hits like "Ben," "Got To Be There," and "I Wanna Be Where You Are". I can't believe this is even being debated. Michael was an infinitely bigger star pre-Off the Wall than Janet was pre-Control.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jun 19, 2011 14:48:01 GMT -5
^ We get it. You think Janet's a joke. *broken record skip* *broken record skip* Jesus. Umm... what?
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Jun 19, 2011 14:52:30 GMT -5
LOL - You rarely have anything positive to say regarding Janet in her own thread (or any other thread where she's mentioned) - so there you have it.
I love Janet - diehard fan (probably for life, as it's already been close to 30 years). MJ was just on another level. Janet's impact was also huge, however. Nobody (including the haters) can convince me otherwise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2011 14:58:31 GMT -5
But no one has been arguing Janet's impact. Some people have been taking issue with any comments that make Janet look inferior to Michael, because they are perceiving it as "hating".
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 19, 2011 15:55:22 GMT -5
And what you're saying is still irrelevant to my font. I am speaking on their breakout albums. Funny how Michael often excluded those pre-OTW songs in his tour set lists. That was for a reason. And before Control, Janet was one of the biggest childhood stars of her time. That is undeniable. Michael had a Hot 100 #1 and a Hot 100 #2 before OTW, as well as being the most famous member of the Jackson 5. Being a child TV actress doesn't stack up. Sorry. This, too, is irrelevant. I was speaking on breakout albums. OTW is Michael's breakout album. Janet's breakout album in Control. That's what I was talking about. Although OTW is not his first album, it is widely considered his breakout album. Denying this is just stupid. And trying to compare music success with acting success is just stupid, too.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 19, 2011 15:58:24 GMT -5
Like Janet's appearances on Fame and Good Times add up to the amount of fame Michael achieved as the lead singer of the Jackson 5 and with solo hits like "Ben," "Got To Be There," and "I Wanna Be Where You Are". I can't believe this is even being debated. Michael was an infinitely bigger star pre-Off the Wall than Janet was pre-Control. Once again, comparing music with television is stupid.
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Dammn Baby
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Post by Dammn Baby on Jun 19, 2011 16:14:08 GMT -5
I think people were debating her impact much earlier in the thread (page two).
To me, it's clear Janet is not on Michael's level by any measure.
That said, I also think she's had a significant and unique impact on popular culture, with perhaps her greatest contribution being that she really paved the way for a new kind of black female artist (and female artist in general). When Control was released, women were not really incorporating intense choreography into their videos or performances. After Control, there was an immediate explosion of female artists who were clearly inspired by Janet and who borrowed elements from her music, videos and stage persona - these include Paula Abdul, Jody Watley, Pebbles, Karyn White, and Nia Peeples. This influence continues today with artists like Britney Spears, Beyonce, Ciara and the late Aaliyah drawing obvious inspiration from Janet.
Janet also kicked down the door for black women in terms of crossover success. Before Janet, there were only a handful of black female artists who could be equally successful on both the pop and R&B charts - Diana Ross and Donna Summer being the biggest - but they did not consistently appeal to both markets, and they did not transform the overall landscape for black female artists. Black women were still by and large restricted to the R&B charts, with the occasional crossover hit.
But everything changed once Control crossed over in such a big way. Janet's music was unapologetically R&B with a heavy dose of dance and funk, and it was tremendously successful on the pop charts. Suddenly, many black female artists were turning uptempo R&B songs into huge crossover hits, and were doing so on a consistent basis. The first to benefit from Janet's influence was Jody Watley, who blew up in late 1986/early 1987.
There was some previous discussion about who has had a greater impact: Whitney or Janet. I'd definitely have to say Janet, because Whitney's early music was explicitly engineered to cross over and appeal to a white audience - her big-voiced ballads had a particularly strong AC leaning. She was the female equivalent of Lionel Ritchie, and she didn't introduce anything to pop radio that wasn't already there, or that was a challenge for pop radio to embrace when coming from a black woman. In Living Color hit the nail on the head with their Rhythmless Nation parody. Whitney subsequently became the template for big-voiced balladeers, and artists like Mariah, Celine and Christina owe much to her. But I don't think she changed the game for black women like Janet did.
For a while now, it hasn't been "cool" to like Janet or to cite her as an influence, but I think there has been a great deal of revisionist history since 2004, and I don't think her impact can be discounted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2011 18:01:22 GMT -5
This, too, is irrelevant. I was speaking on breakout albums. OTW is Michael's breakout album. Janet's breakout album in Control. That's what I was talking about. Although OTW is not his first album, it is widely considered his breakout album. Denying this is just stupid. And trying to compare music success with acting success is just stupid, too. Just because you were talking about albums doesn't mean singles are irrelevant. Michael had a #1 single and a top five album before Off The Wall, regardless of whether it was his breakout or not. I really can't believe this thread is still going. The answer is obviously no. Nobody in music is more of an icon than Michael. The fact that people who are pointing that out are being labeled "haters" just shows how topsy turvy the world of diva stan wars can be.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 19, 2011 22:22:07 GMT -5
This, too, is irrelevant. I was speaking on breakout albums. OTW is Michael's breakout album. Janet's breakout album in Control. That's what I was talking about. Although OTW is not his first album, it is widely considered his breakout album. Denying this is just stupid. And trying to compare music success with acting success is just stupid, too. Just because you were talking about albums doesn't mean singles are irrelevant. Michael had a #1 single and a top five album before Off The Wall, regardless of whether it was his breakout or not. I really can't believe this thread is still going. The answer is obviously no. Nobody in music is more of an icon than Michael. The fact that people who are pointing that out are being labeled "haters" just shows how topsy turvy the world of diva stan wars can be. I never said they were irrelevant. Don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking on their breakout albums. Discussing anything contrary to that is irrelevant. See how easy this is?
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jun 19, 2011 22:38:56 GMT -5
Like Janet's appearances on Fame and Good Times add up to the amount of fame Michael achieved as the lead singer of the Jackson 5 and with solo hits like "Ben," "Got To Be There," and "I Wanna Be Where You Are". I can't believe this is even being debated. Michael was an infinitely bigger star pre-Off the Wall than Janet was pre-Control. Once again, comparing music with television is stupid. Because famous-in-one-country TV stars can't stack up against global music superstars?
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 19, 2011 22:47:03 GMT -5
Once again, comparing music with television is stupid. Because famous-in-one-country TV stars can't stack up against global music superstars? No, because the means and methods of comparison are faulty.
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Post by tico on Jun 22, 2011 23:29:12 GMT -5
Before I address whether or not Janet is an icon, let me first chime in on the Michael v. Elvis deal. Both are icons. Whether one is bigger than the other is subjective. There are legit reasons why one could be bigger than the other. With Elvis, he was the first major icon of the rock era. Up until Michael Jackson, there was no other male solo artist as big. Elvis' certified record sales are just under 200M (with claimed sales from 600M-1 billion). Michael Jackson's certified sales are over 150M, with claimed sales of 350M-750M. Source. Thousands each year flock to Memphis to visit Graceland, as well as Elvis' hometown of Tupelo, MS. I don't know if there are any plans to turns MJ's boyhood home into a tourist attraction. Elvis also has a slew of impersonators who perform all over the country, something Michael currently doesn't have. Michael also has some advantages over Elvis. Michael's career began to rise at a time when mass media became more prevalent, causing him to have more exposure than what Elvis could've dreamed of. He's also more of an all-around entertainer as well. I think Michael became popular because of his dancing, which continues to wow people even after his untimely death two years ago. Perhaps most importantly, Michael has an appeal among people of all demographics. Sure, Elvis has black, Hispanics and Asian fans, but most of his fan base is white. Michael, OTOH, has large fans bases among all groups of people. Back to Janet, I enjoy her music, but she is nowhere near the iconic status that her late big brother is. Yes, she is one in her own right, but she's not even more iconic than Madonna, maybe the next big star after MJ. I'll even entertain the argument that Lady Gaga has surpassed Janet in iconic status. Sometimes, I even wonder if Janet would've had the career she had, had she not come from such a famous family.
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Post by Adonis the DemiGod! on Jun 23, 2011 0:22:33 GMT -5
Before I address whether or not Janet is an icon, let me first chime in on the Michael v. Elvis deal. Both are icons. Whether one is bigger than the other is subjective. There are legit reasons why one could be bigger than the other. With Elvis, he was the first major icon of the rock era. Up until Michael Jackson, there was no other male solo artist as big. Elvis' certified record sales are just under 200M (with claimed sales from 600M-1 billion). Michael Jackson's certified sales are over 150M, with claimed sales of 350M-750M. Source. Thousands each year flock to Memphis to visit Graceland, as well as Elvis' hometown of Tupelo, MS. I don't know if there are any plans to turns MJ's boyhood home into a tourist attraction. Elvis also has a slew of impersonators who perform all over the country, something Michael currently doesn't have. Michael also has some advantages over Elvis. Michael's career began to rise at a time when mass media became more prevalent, causing him to have more exposure than what Elvis could've dreamed of. He's also more of an all-around entertainer as well. I think Michael became popular because of his dancing, which continues to wow people even after his untimely death two years ago. Perhaps most importantly, Michael has an appeal among people of all demographics. Sure, Elvis has black, Hispanics and Asian fans, but most of his fan base is white. Michael, OTOH, has large fans bases among all groups of people. Back to Janet, I enjoy her music, but she is nowhere near the iconic status that her late big brother is. Yes, she is one in her own right, but she's not even more iconic than Madonna, maybe the next big star after MJ. I'll even entertain the argument that Lady Gaga has surpassed Janet in iconic status. Sometimes, I even wonder if Janet would've had the career she had, had she not come from such a famous family. To be iconic you have to inspire people to be like you. NYSYNC, Britney Spears, Usher, Beyonce you name it have all been inspired by Janet in ways that in ways Lady Gaga wishes she could inspire people. Right now many of Gaga's peers think she's just a pretentious weirdo who's music and videos haven't lived up to the hype. People are giving Michael credit for Janet's success. That's just ridiculous. Janet's first two albums flopped hard core like all of her other siblings albums did. JJ & TL helped Janet more than Michael's name ever could.
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Mack
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Post by Mack on Jun 23, 2011 12:38:54 GMT -5
This is the only correct response: The answer is obviously no.
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PDC1987
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Post by PDC1987 on Jun 23, 2011 18:59:19 GMT -5
LOL - You rarely have anything positive to say regarding Janet in her own thread (or any other thread where she's mentioned) - so there you have it. ...? Actually my most recent (if you can call them that) posts in the Janet thread were mere box office updates for her last film.
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Mr. Wonder
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Post by Mr. Wonder on Jun 23, 2011 19:00:37 GMT -5
In Living Color hit the nail on the head with their Rhythmless Nation parody.
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Caviar
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Post by Caviar on Jun 24, 2011 12:03:29 GMT -5
This thread is a mess.
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esoteric76
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Post by esoteric76 on Jun 24, 2011 14:40:20 GMT -5
You know the thread is just getting good when THIS is posted ;)
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marcjm
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Post by marcjm on Jun 24, 2011 16:29:59 GMT -5
I think people were debating her impact much earlier in the thread (page two). To me, it's clear Janet is not on Michael's level by any measure. That said, I also think she's had a significant and unique impact on popular culture, with perhaps her greatest contribution being that she really paved the way for a new kind of black female artist (and female artist in general). When Control was released, women were not really incorporating intense choreography into their videos or performances. After Control, there was an immediate explosion of female artists who were clearly inspired by Janet and who borrowed elements from her music, videos and stage persona - these include Paula Abdul, Jody Watley, Pebbles, Karyn White, and Nia Peeples. This influence continues today with artists like Britney Spears, Beyonce, Ciara and the late Aaliyah drawing obvious inspiration from Janet. Janet also kicked down the door for black women in terms of crossover success. Before Janet, there were only a handful of black female artists who could be equally successful on both the pop and R&B charts - Diana Ross and Donna Summer being the biggest - but they did not consistently appeal to both markets, and they did not transform the overall landscape for black female artists. Black women were still by and large restricted to the R&B charts, with the occasional crossover hit. But everything changed once Control crossed over in such a big way. Janet's music was unapologetically R&B with a heavy dose of dance and funk, and it was tremendously successful on the pop charts. Suddenly, many black female artists were turning uptempo R&B songs into huge crossover hits, and were doing so on a consistent basis. The first to benefit from Janet's influence was Jody Watley, who blew up in late 1986/early 1987. There was some previous discussion about who has had a greater impact: Whitney or Janet. I'd definitely have to say Janet, because Whitney's early music was explicitly engineered to cross over and appeal to a white audience - her big-voiced ballads had a particularly strong AC leaning. She was the female equivalent of Lionel Ritchie, and she didn't introduce anything to pop radio that wasn't already there, or that was a challenge for pop radio to embrace when coming from a black woman. In Living Color hit the nail on the head with their Rhythmless Nation parody. Whitney subsequently became the template for big-voiced balladeers, and artists like Mariah, Celine and Christina owe much to her. But I don't think she changed the game for black women like Janet did. For a while now, it hasn't been "cool" to like Janet or to cite her as an influence, but I think there has been a great deal of revisionist history since 2004, and I don't think her impact can be discounted. Perfect quote-You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Dammn Baby
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Post by Dammn Baby on Jun 24, 2011 21:38:52 GMT -5
Back to Janet, I enjoy her music, but she is nowhere near the iconic status that her late big brother is. Yes, she is one in her own right, but she's not even more iconic than Madonna, maybe the next big star after MJ. I'll even entertain the argument that Lady Gaga has surpassed Janet in iconic status. Sometimes, I even wonder if Janet would've had the career she had, had she not come from such a famous family. 1. How on earth could it be possible for Lady Gaga to surpass Janet's iconic status when she hasn't inspired a generation of performers and she hasn't even approached Janet's level of success? 2. If it was so easy for someone to have a successful career by being a part of the Jackson family, all of the family members would have had hugely successful solo careers. Not only did Janet have a massively successful career in her own right, she also established her own identity independent of Michael, the biggest musical star the world has ever seen. Now that's no small feat, and I don't understand why people act like it was just easy for her to show up and get hit after hit after hit.
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MikeCheck12
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Post by MikeCheck12 on Jun 25, 2011 10:18:33 GMT -5
^ Standing ovation. Pretty much sums it all up right there.
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