McCreerian
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Post by McCreerian on Oct 11, 2012 15:15:11 GMT -5
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 15:21:38 GMT -5
I'm betting if this chart had been in place before now she wouldn't have even sent out a second single and Radio would have increased the play of the song. Don't you see that this is a HUGE problem though? I'm sorry, layne, but I have to disagree with pretty much all your thoughts on this new chart. If this chart had been in place and WANEGBT had been #1 for weeks and weeks, why should radio bump its airplay because of that? Why should a song get an airplay increase because of its position on a national chart with a methodology dictated by Billboard? The airplay charts have never been perfect but they should always be based on listener feedback, and that's why WANEGBT fared so poorly. It tested terribly. The majority of country radio listeners strongly disliked it. This hurts so many country singers and will really help the crossover acts and it's just terrible. George Strait, Alan Jackson, Reba...even guys like Tim, Keith, Toby, Brad...artists who got to the top before 2005 (ish), don't sell singles the way that the newer stars do. Why? Because a lot of the big stars from the 90's and before established fanbases back then, and many of those fans have stuck with them...and the older fanbases simply do not buy singles nearly as much as the rabid young fans do for 'who's hot right now'. Look, I'm very interested in sales too, because sometimes, a song can connect earlier than it does on the airplay chart, which in turn will spur its airplay along. We saw that with Thompson Square's "Are You Gonna Kiss Me Or Not", Eli Young Band's "Crazy Girl", and now Florida Georgia Line's "Cruise". But radio people already can get or have access to the SoundScan charts that show single sales...it makes NO sense to mix them with airplay. Why not mix album sales then? Or count each album sale as a single sale too. After all, the 70,000 people that bought Alan Jackson's latest album in its 1st week certainly all bought "So You Don't Have To Love Me Anymore", right? Alan and George can sell albums decently well yet, even with their decline at radio, yet this new chart will not help them. Instead, it will help people like Love & Theft, who barely sold anything at all with their new album, yet sold many copies of "Angel Eyes". There will be a lot of issues with this chart. I will try to support the airplay chart, in hopes that it remains relevant within the industry. But maybe I'll just have to follow Mediabase more. Or maybe...maybe I won't care. Following the charts and my favorite artists has always been a big passion of mine, a hobby if you will. But I don't like where it's all heading. Maybe I'll just keep listening to the music now, and forget about airplay and sales. Finally, one last thought...why does the country genre have to have a mixed chart? Pop doesn't, right? Rock doesn't. Rap doesn't. The Hot 100 is NOT a pop chart...just a combined sales/airplay/streaming chart for all genres, and I've always thought it was useless. There are still songs that go #1 on the Pop airplay chart but don't go #1 on the Hot 100. So my question is, why are they trying to make this mixed hybrid chart the main country chart, when other genres still have airplay-only charts as their main chart? Jhomes87 Where did I say I thought radio SHOULD play the Taylor song based on the chart? Why did they Play the song at all? Politics that's why. It's no diffferent than any other A-list Artist. Their songs get played whether they are good or not but new acts that are struggling to break through but are selling well have to spend 30-50 weeks climbing the chart and settle for #2 more times than not. The other chart isn't fair either.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Oct 11, 2012 15:30:41 GMT -5
There will be a lot of issues with this chart. I will try to support the airplay chart, in hopes that it remains relevant within the industry. But maybe I'll just have to follow Mediabase more. Or maybe...maybe I won't care. Following the charts and my favorite artists has always been a big passion of mine, a hobby if you will. But I don't like where it's all heading. Maybe I'll just keep listening to the music now, and forget about airplay and sales. Completely agree. I wonder if Billboard realizes what they're getting into... #backlash
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 15:42:44 GMT -5
Jhomes87 Where did I say I thought radio SHOULD play the Taylor song based on the chart? Why did they Play the song at all? Politics that's why. It's no diffferent than any other A-list Artist. Their songs get played whether they are good or not but new acts that are struggling to break through but are selling well have to spend 30-50 weeks climbing the chart and settle for #2 more times than not. The other chart isn't fair either. You were implying that it would have done better on radio simply because this "hybrid chart" would show it at #1. And that's the issue. So re-read my post, because I never said you thought radio SHOULD do this. But it's hard to argue that your post seems to imply it would get more airplay just because, layed out before everyone, is this chart that shows it at #1. But why do we need this chart? Everyone already knows Taylor sells singles by the thousands. How can you equate 1 spin to 200 sales (I have no clue what the ratio of what to what to what is, in regards to sales, streaming, and airplay)? What makes them equal? NOTHING! It's worse than comparing apples and oranges...this chart is like mixing cocoa puffs with pepperoni pizza and pouring apple juice all over it. Politics are ALWAYS gonna be there, in everything in life. But the way the airplay chart has always been was pretty good. Sure, the labels bully around programmers and it takes a while for a new act to break through...but this new chart won't change that. It's not going to make them any more popular. They are still going to sell the same amount of singles they would have, and hardly any albums, because people don't buy them now like they used to. Had this chart been in place a few years ago, "Need You Now" would've likely spent...oh, boy...30 some weeks at #1? It's peak on POP radio was months after its country peak. But it was #1 on at least one format for months at a time, got all those sales...and all that somehow makes it the #1 country song? It was a huge hit, certainly. One of the biggest we've had. But I don't see the point of mixing sales and airplay. One spin is not equivalent to a certain amount of downloads. And pop airplay and iTunes-only releases...things that aren't associated at all with country radio...should not allow songs to be #1 on the "main country chart".
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.indulgecountry
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Post by .indulgecountry on Oct 11, 2012 15:43:33 GMT -5
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in: This is ridiculous. I am not happy with this choice at all, and it really messes things up in a way that wasn't necessary at all. I don't personally mind a sales-oriented country chart, but the methodology they're going about in creating this is missing the mark. The (country only) airplay-driven chart should've remained the primary publication, but alas it looks like the damage is done. Pretty disappointed by all this tbqh.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Oct 11, 2012 15:45:38 GMT -5
"Red" debuted at #2 with absolutely no airplay – what else needs to be said?
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jptexas
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Post by jptexas on Oct 11, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5
Why mess up a reasonable chart formula? I don't get the change, unless its to help a certain group of artists and basically screw a lot of others. No , I don't get the change. I'm thinking a huge backlash is coming.
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 15:55:35 GMT -5
Jhomes87 Where did I say I thought radio SHOULD play the Taylor song based on the chart? Why did they Play the song at all? Politics that's why. It's no diffferent than any other A-list Artist. Their songs get played whether they are good or not but new acts that are struggling to break through but are selling well have to spend 30-50 weeks climbing the chart and settle for #2 more times than not. The other chart isn't fair either. You were implying that it would have done better on radio simply because this "hybrid chart" would show it at #1. And that's the issue. So re-read my post, because I never said you thought radio SHOULD do this. But it's hard to argue that your post seems to imply it would get more airplay just because, layed out before everyone, is this chart that shows it at #1. But why do we need this chart? Everyone already knows Taylor sells singles by the thousands. How can you equate 1 spin to 200 sales (I have no clue what the ratio of what to what to what is, in regards to sales, streaming, and airplay)? What makes them equal? NOTHING! It's worse than comparing apples and oranges...this chart is like mixing cocoa puffs with pepperoni pizza and pouring apple juice all over it. Politics are ALWAYS gonna be there, in everything in life. But the way the airplay chart has always been was pretty good. Sure, the labels bully around programmers and it takes a while for a new act to break through...but this new chart won't change that. It's not going to make them any more popular. They are still going to sell the same amount of singles they would have, and hardly any albums, because people don't buy them now like they used to. Had this chart been in place a few years ago, "Need You Now" would've likely spent...oh, boy...30 some weeks at #1? It's peak on POP radio was months after its country peak. But it was #1 on at least one format for months at a time, got all those sales...and all that somehow makes it the #1 country song? It was a huge hit, certainly. One of the biggest we've had. But I don't see the point of mixing sales and airplay. One spin is not equivalent to a certain amount of downloads. And pop airplay and iTunes-only releases...things that aren't associated at all with country radio...should not allow songs to be #1 on the "main country chart". I wasn't implying anything. I simply stated I thought radio would play the song more instead of her having to pull it. You know why? Because she is an A-list Artist and that's the reason they were still playing it in high rotation at some stations despite the bad call out scores. In fact, I still think the song would be on the airplay chart right now much like the Tim McGraw song if she hadn't sent out Begin Again. Good Songs are going to be rewarded. Even Miranda sells well when she puts out an outstanding song such as "The House That Built Me" and as far as Need You Now, it was the best Country song imo and deserved every award it got, much like Miranda's song did the following year.
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on Oct 11, 2012 16:00:05 GMT -5
this chart is like mixing cocoa puffs with pepperoni pizza and pouring apple juice all over it. I have nothing more to add but this sentence will be going down in my permanent memory bank.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 16:08:24 GMT -5
^Layne, the definition of a 'good song' is subjective. I happen to believe that WANEGBT was not gonna go anywhere on the country airplay chart, that the song clearly crossed sonic boundaries, and it was obvious that country radio showed strong resistance to it. The reason it 'hung in there', if you can even call it that, is partly because Taylor has established herself through years of hard work, but was more than likely hard lobbying by Scott Borchetta to keep it getting as much airplay as country radio would possibly allow, and all the while the majority of listeners cringed when it came on the radio. Borchetta did his thing, because without that country airplay, they don't get a (imo, worthless) Hot 100 #1. Now, look at this chart below (the linked image). The RADIOFEEDBACK chart. Radio stations all around the country have their own ways of gauging listener feedback, which is what they SHOULD base their playlists off of. This is of course the national feedback survey published by Billboard. imageshack.us/a/img528/3546/lamechart.jpgWhere are Taylor's songs on this chart? WANEGBT never made the chart. Why? It wasn't testing well. "Red" certainly isn't on there, because the majority of country radio listeners haven't heard the song yet. Taylor's fans have. Honestly, I don't hate Taylor at all...but she's the best example to use of why this chart is bad. Again, my main point stands...why do airplay and sales need to be mixed? If you look at that chart, it's pretty obvious that radio is doing a pretty good job of playing most of the popular songs there, as measured by listener reaction. But with an artist like Taylor, you have no clue where those downloads are coming from. Have you heard her latest iTunes release, "I Knew You Were Trouble"? There's no way they'll ever release that song to country radio, yet next week, look for a top 3 bow on this new hybrid chart! It is a POP song. Taylor has fans of both genres, but with a song like that, I'd imagine the majority percentage of its sales are coming from her pop-leaning fans or pop fans who are casual Taylor fans...same thing happened with "Red" (although I can at least see that song doing something on country radio...but IKYWT?...no).
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Cody Wants Out...
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Post by Cody Wants Out... on Oct 11, 2012 16:13:14 GMT -5
I have lost all respect for the Billboard charts now. :'(
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mikem
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Post by mikem on Oct 11, 2012 16:18:20 GMT -5
How do you "like" a post because I like everything jholmes just said?
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carriekins
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Post by carriekins on Oct 11, 2012 16:20:17 GMT -5
How do you "like" a post because I like everything jholmes just said? The little thumbs up icon next to "report to mod" at the bottom of each of her posts. :) Also, Jamie, HAHAHAHA to the title of your picture. "lamechart." Hahahahahaha.
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on Oct 11, 2012 16:20:26 GMT -5
Click the thumbs up icon. Unless you are on a computer with an old browser like My work laptop. Then theres no icon.
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 16:21:13 GMT -5
^jhomes87, ok maybe good song isn't the best word. A HIT is a song that the masses are buying and streaming. Why should radio alone be responsible for determining what songs are HITS? This chart is going to recognize songs that the masses enjoy and are buying and streaming regardless of whether radio plays them or not. That same radiofeedback chart has several times had songs at the top that radio wouldn't play. Songs that people wanted to hear. It works both ways. I don't agree this is the best way to reward #1 songs but there is still mediabase.
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Ten Pound Hammer
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Post by Ten Pound Hammer on Oct 11, 2012 16:21:40 GMT -5
As long as the airplay-only chart is still accessible, I can't complain too much. And as long as Taylor doesn't spent 49 weeks at #1 on this new chart.
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carriekins
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Post by carriekins on Oct 11, 2012 16:23:06 GMT -5
Well... um... maybe on this new chart, the Clear Channel orchestrated debuts won't have as much of an impact? #SearchingForSilverLining
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slayZ
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Post by slayZ on Oct 11, 2012 16:26:10 GMT -5
If it's any consolation for those wondering about Taylor's most pop inclined songs charting on Country based on sales alone, Billboard's editor just tweeted -
when asked if they considered the genre not just the artist.
and there you have it.
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 16:29:39 GMT -5
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WolfSpear
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Post by WolfSpear on Oct 11, 2012 16:30:55 GMT -5
So, for everyone that didn't like the high rotation rate at the top years ago ... well, it's going to look like 1946 again now.
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on Oct 11, 2012 16:31:25 GMT -5
Layne , while I agree that country radio shouldn't have sole control over what is played, I still have a hard time getting my head around how you can applaud a chart that takes other genres of music sales & streams & lumps them all together. Certainly you can see how lopsided that makes the chart. If an I-Tunes exclusive can sit at #2 without any airplay, why even bother tabulating airplay at all? We are looking at a situation where songs are going to be released from high profile artists under these I-tunes deals or a Grammy performance that are going to be #1 singles without ever being released as actual airplay singles. Hell, give Taylor five years and she will have more chart toppers then George Strait!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 16:37:08 GMT -5
^jhomes87, ok maybe good song isn't the best word. A HIT is a song that the masses are buying and streaming. Why should radio alone be responsible for determining what songs are HITS? This chart is going to recognize songs that the masses enjoy and are buying and streaming regardless of whether radio plays them or not. That same radiofeedback chart has several times had songs at the top that radio wouldn't play. Songs that people wanted to hear. It works both ways. I don't agree this is the best way to reward #1 songs but there is still mediabase. You continue to miss my point. I'm not saying that the big sellers and hot streaming songs aren't necessarily the biggest hits. Clearly, they are getting heard by a lot of people. They are definitely hits. My point all along (even before this chart came out today) is that sales and airplay are 2 entirely different things. I don't see why they should be mixed together! How can you determine what a fair ratio is? That's why, in my mind: Airplay=pepperoni pizza. Good by itself. Sales=cocoa puffs. Good by themselves. Streaming=apple juice. Yum. Why mix them together? They don't equally affect one another. My concern is sort of what you voiced earlier...I don't want to turn on my local country radio station and hear a bunch of songs that PD's think are popular in listeners' eyes/ears, simply because they are at the top of this new Billboard chart. I am scared that this new chart will cause country radio programmers to program more and more crossover sounding songs. They already get played now, and that's fine by me...I like different sounds in my country. I liked "Need You Now". I like several of Taylor's songs. But I don't want them over-played on country radio, simply because massive download numbers and streaming are making them #1 on some lame hybrid chart (which might influence PD's programming decisions). Again, I acknowledge that the airplay chart has never been perfect. But it is way better than this new lame chart.
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 16:37:37 GMT -5
Layne , while I agree that country radio shouldn't have sole control over what is played, I still have a hard time getting my head around how you can applaud a chart that takes other genres of music sales & streams & lumps them all together. Certainly you can see how lopsided that makes the chart. If an I-Tunes exclusive can sit at #2 without any airplay, why even bother tabulating airplay at all? We are looking at a situation where songs are going to be released from high profile artists under these I-tunes deals or a Grammy performance that are going to be #1 singles without ever being released as actual airplay singles. Hell, give Taylor five years and she will have more chart toppers then George Strait! Lumpster, I applaud this chart for taking away Radio having all the power over what gets recognized as a hit. Could the ratio of what makes up the chart be better? Yeah probably too much emphasis is on sales based on what I see.
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joey2002
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Post by joey2002 on Oct 11, 2012 16:41:38 GMT -5
sales and airplay are 2 entirely different things. I don't see why they should be mixed together! How can you determine what a fair ratio is? That's why, in my mind: Airplay=pepperoni pizza. Good by itself. Sales=cocoa puffs. Good by themselves. Streaming=apple juice. Yum. Why mix them together? Totally agree. Based on "Red" being #2, Billboard seems to really like cocoa puffs.
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slayZ
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Post by slayZ on Oct 11, 2012 16:43:34 GMT -5
Great read! Thanks for posting.
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WolfSpear
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Post by WolfSpear on Oct 11, 2012 16:45:08 GMT -5
Well, if Billboard is going to play this game for much longer, they need to readjust the weights differently to that of the Hot 100.
Pop and country are two different markets that act in two different ways.
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Arabella21
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Post by Arabella21 on Oct 11, 2012 16:45:51 GMT -5
I don't mind airplay being a component of the chart but why count crossover airplay? Especially for country artists who often get that outside airplay by remixing their songs to remove the country elements from them so why is that being rewarded on the country charts? If you want to count airplay from all genres isn't that what the Hot 100 is for?
Country radio has had too much power in determining what becomes a hit but I don't think this new methodology is the necessarily the answer. Combining the country download sales (not sales of any pop versions) and airplay from country stations for that kind of hybrid chart would have been fine.
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lsujules
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Post by lsujules on Oct 11, 2012 16:47:10 GMT -5
so what BB chart REALLY does matter? has anyone figure that out yet? I put my money on Monday nights! this one is a Hot mess.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 16:48:54 GMT -5
Layne , while I agree that country radio shouldn't have sole control over what is played, I still have a hard time getting my head around how you can applaud a chart that takes other genres of music sales & streams & lumps them all together. Certainly you can see how lopsided that makes the chart. If an I-Tunes exclusive can sit at #2 without any airplay, why even bother tabulating airplay at all? We are looking at a situation where songs are going to be released from high profile artists under these I-tunes deals or a Grammy performance that are going to be #1 singles without ever being released as actual airplay singles. Hell, give Taylor five years and she will have more chart toppers then George Strait! Lumpster, I applaud this chart for taking away Radio having all the power over what gets recognized as a hit. Could the ratio of what makes up the chart be better? Yeah probably too much emphasis is on sales based on what I see. If radio is so bad, why does it have so many listeners? Radio stations have their own ratings and country radio is doing pretty damn good. It's not going to perfect for everyone, but millions of listeners listen every week. According to the airplay charts, more than 36 million people heard "Blown Away" on the radio this past week. And the songs near the top have ALWAYS gotten about that much audience. People are listening to the radio...radio has a way of determining that. Again, big sellers are HITS. But we already KNEW that. The fans already know that. So why do we have to mix sales and airplay? Billboard has proven in this country issue they published today that they have the ability to track streaming, sales, and airplay all separately. I just don't understand why they feel the need to combine them all in a hybrid chart. It makes the chart into a popularity contest. The top songs on radio are getting heard by millions of people per week, and the top downloads are being bought maybe 60,000 to 70,000 times per week, or more if you are a crossover artist like Taylor. How are those figures equal to thousands of plays, which reach millions of ears, on country radio? Country radio is more popular than it has ever been. It is the most-listened to genre there is. Clearly, not everyone is going to like the airplay-only based charts all the time, but the fact is, country radio is doing very well. People listen to it a LOT. And I want the chart to stay an airplay-only chart, based on what's popular on the radio. They can have a sales-only chart, that shows the big-selling hits. And they can track the streaming services and call that an 'on-demand' chart. But mixing them? It just makes no sense to me.
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layne
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Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 16:50:23 GMT -5
jhomes87, I get your point. you can still look at the airplay chart. The problem with the airplay chart for me is that it lets PD's and labels determine what songs are to be hits or not be hits. Like it or not, Blake Shelton's last single should have never been a #1 hit in my mind. It was a #1 hit, because Radio had the sole say so in it. That's just an example I'm using to point out why I like having sales mixed in. Don't get me wrong, I like Blake and thought Honey Bee was clearly worthy. So this isn't about him.
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