michellef
New Member
Joined: January 2009
Posts: 104
|
Post by michellef on Oct 11, 2012 16:52:30 GMT -5
but taylor's WANEGBT never should've been a #1 country hit...yet it is.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 17:00:23 GMT -5
jhomes87, I get your point. you can still look at the airplay chart. The problem with the airplay chart for me is that it lets PD's and labels determine what songs are to be hits or not be hits. And I will look at the airplay-only chart, and Mediabase, as determining the radio hits (that is, if I bother to chart-watch at all anymore). Every week I also look at single sales--I find them fascinating. But mixing them has way more issues than PD's controlling radio play. Look, I understand radio isn't always gonna get it right. But they are doing a lot of things right if they have a lot of listeners, right? The radio stations wouldn't last if they didn't have listeners...so they are either listening to them well enough or doing something else right, that keeps people listening. Yeah, there are going to be big labels and politics and all that involved, but you know what? We'll see that on a sales chart, or on a hybrid chart. We'll see labels discounting songs to 69 cents a week to bolster them to #1, just for 1 week. You are never going to get rid of manipulation, or someone controlling the chart. What if 2 songs are going head to head on this new chart, and one song has been just ahead of the other song the whole time (and therefore the bigger hit, according to the new chart). But let's say that the artist at #1 is on tour, and the artist at #2 is not. So artist #2 has tons of free time and goes on all these big TV show performances in a week, to get a ton of sales, and leapfrog the song that had been at #1 and was determined, by this new chart, to be more popular. Mixing the airplay and sales just doesn't make sense. It doesn't get rid of any problems (and I don't really believe there were any big problems in the first place, other than radio playing the top songs too much and not spreading airplay to other newer songs). I think this hybrid chart creates way more issues. Why else do you think people are typing online columns trying to explain the charts? Negative reaction from chart fans.
|
|
layne
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2011
Posts: 1,378
|
Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 17:10:15 GMT -5
^I think you just said it. The mediabase and bb airplay chart is going to determine the radio hits and this new chart is going to show the biggest hits overall.
|
|
michellef
New Member
Joined: January 2009
Posts: 104
|
Post by michellef on Oct 11, 2012 17:19:35 GMT -5
^I think you just said it. The mediabase and bb airplay chart is going to determine the radio hits and this new chart is going to show the biggest hits overall. no...not overall. just by sales pretty much. WANEGBT is NOT a bigger country hit overall than say, "blown away." i really don't see why this new chart is needed as there is already a digital songs chart and the hot 100. i agree with jhomes that sales and airplay do NOT need to be a combined chart, as they're two completely different things.
|
|
mikem
New Member
Gillian Welch 'The Harrow and the Harvest'
Joined: March 2012
Posts: 242
|
Post by mikem on Oct 11, 2012 17:26:40 GMT -5
I could have taken this whole thing with a grain of salt if they had left the Airplay chart as the source of Billboard's historical record. But, let's face it, being number one on the Airplay chart now carries just slightly more prestige than being number one on the Indicator chart. You will not get recognition for a number-one song on Billboard's country charts unless you are number-one on this hybrid chart. To me, that is an absolutely huge deal.
And, forgive me, but having the same folks who have Never Ever as their number-one country song today tell me that Taylor's pop songs won't appear on the charts is not very reassuring. I also wonder who will determine what is country and how they'll go about it.
|
|
Sean
6x Platinum Member
Joined: December 2011
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Sean on Oct 11, 2012 17:31:09 GMT -5
I was gonna try and stay out of this and not put my two cents in (I think this is all completely and utterly ridiculous!) because I agree with a lot of people on this and it upsets me too! However this upsets me more: There will be a lot of issues with this chart. I will try to support the airplay chart, in hopes that it remains relevant within the industry. But maybe I'll just have to follow Mediabase more. Or maybe...maybe I won't care. Following the charts and my favorite artists has always been a big passion of mine, a hobby if you will. But I don't like where it's all heading. Maybe I'll just keep listening to the music now, and forget about airplay and sales.And I will look at the airplay-only chart, and Mediabase, as determining the radio hits (that is, if I bother to chart-watch at all anymore). Every week I also look at single sales--I find them fascinating. I promise, jhomes, that I'm not trying to force you to keep posting about the charts specifically and everything, but I know I'm not alone in saying that all of your insights on the "real" ( ;) )country charts would be terribly missed by a lot of people! I don't post in the "Country" section too often (I just prefer to read everything here) but I will beg and beg for you to keep posting about these charts, whether they're crappy stupid ones or not! You're one of my favorite posters on all of Pulse! Soooo yeah that was something I just wanted to say real quick! I really do hope this can somehow get situated in a way where we can all enjoy the charts Oh well I'll stop rambling now!
|
|
onebuffalo
Diamond Member
#LiteralLegender
I am One Buffalo.
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 26,610
|
Post by onebuffalo on Oct 11, 2012 17:52:08 GMT -5
I will still consider the Hot Country Song Airplay chart to be the main chart. I do want to see Carrie Underwood collect another #1. I will not consider a chart that uses other forms of data to determine what the #1 song of the week is.
|
|
Uncle Lumpy
3x Platinum Member
The poster formerly known as Lumpster
Joined: September 2005
Posts: 3,425
|
Post by Uncle Lumpy on Oct 11, 2012 17:53:20 GMT -5
^I think you just said it. The mediabase and bb airplay chart is going to determine the radio hits and this new chart is going to show the biggest hits overall. Just like the Hot 100 already does. I get what you're saying. I pretty much despise country radio anymore and simply don't listen & haven't in a long time. I still watch the charts however even if I dont particularlily have a "horse to bet on" so I know when that rare new song or artist comes along. I dont have a problem with BB compiling this chart , what I do have a problem with is BB saying this is THE country chart.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 17:55:21 GMT -5
Well, there goes everyone else's fantastic chart records -- Carrie, Blake, Jason, Kenny, etc.
Congratulations to Taylor. You will now control Country weekly with each of your individual Pop releases. Anyone want to see if "I Knew You Were Trouble" debuts at #1 next week? I mean, it's selling the best and is already receiving Pop airplay, so naturally that's enough to be the #1 song in...Country music -- even with its dubstep and all.
|
|
layne
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2011
Posts: 1,378
|
Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 17:57:54 GMT -5
^The Country Genre doesn't have to accept this chart. It can get behind and make a statement that it's going to recognize the Mediabase chart for awarding it's songs. ASCAP is going to use the mediabase chart.
|
|
slayZ
3x Platinum Member
Joined: November 2010
Posts: 3,232
|
Post by slayZ on Oct 11, 2012 17:58:48 GMT -5
Well, there goes everyone else's fantastic chart records -- Carrie, Blake, Jason, Kenny, etc. Congratulations to Taylor. You will now control Country weekly with each of your individual Pop releases. Anyone want to see if "I Knew You Were Trouble" debuts at #1 next week? I mean, it's selling the best and is already receiving Pop airplay, so naturally that's enough to be the #1 song in...Country music -- even with its dubstep and all. Taylor's Pop leaning singles will not be charting on country, per Billboard's editor. And Taylor's weekly releases will be over next week. This only benefits her short terms. Plenty of other artists will benefit from this rule change once things balance out, it's just the first week and she just happened to be dominating iTunes.
|
|
Uncle Lumpy
3x Platinum Member
The poster formerly known as Lumpster
Joined: September 2005
Posts: 3,425
|
Post by Uncle Lumpy on Oct 11, 2012 18:02:35 GMT -5
Well, there goes everyone else's fantastic chart records -- Carrie, Blake, Jason, Kenny, etc. Congratulations to Taylor. You will now control Country weekly with each of your individual Pop releases. Anyone want to see if "I Knew You Were Trouble" debuts at #1 next week? I mean, it's selling the best and is already receiving Pop airplay, so naturally that's enough to be the #1 song in...Country music -- even with its dubstep and all. Taylor's Pop leaning singles will not be charting on country, per Billboard's editor. . You have seen this weeks "number one" , right?
|
|
Arabella21
Platinum Member
Joined: January 2007
Posts: 1,381
|
Post by Arabella21 on Oct 11, 2012 18:05:14 GMT -5
Taylor's Pop leaning singles will not be charting on country, per Billboard's editor. . You have seen this weeks "number one" , right? IKR? It's only #1 almost entirely due to all the downloads the pop version sold. Sure the song got country airplay but mostly due to its country mix that has never been for sale.
|
|
carrieidol1
Diamond Member
Joined: August 2007
Posts: 12,576
|
Post by carrieidol1 on Oct 11, 2012 18:05:23 GMT -5
Well, there goes everyone else's fantastic chart records -- Carrie, Blake, Jason, Kenny, etc. Congratulations to Taylor. You will now control Country weekly with each of your individual Pop releases. Anyone want to see if "I Knew You Were Trouble" debuts at #1 next week? I mean, it's selling the best and is already receiving Pop airplay, so naturally that's enough to be the #1 song in...Country music -- even with its dubstep and all. Taylor's Pop leaning singles will not be charting on country, per Billboard's editor. And Taylor's weekly releases will be over next week. This only benefits her short terms. Plenty of other artists will benefit from this rule change once things balance out, it's just the first week and she just happened to be dominating iTunes. On the contrary, Taylor's Pop leaning singles will dominate the Country charts despite their lackluster Country radio support. Who told you otherwise?
|
|
mikem
New Member
Gillian Welch 'The Harrow and the Harvest'
Joined: March 2012
Posts: 242
|
Post by mikem on Oct 11, 2012 18:06:32 GMT -5
If anyone at Arista has any balls, they'll run a full-page ad in Country Update Monday thanking radio for making Blown Away the REAL number-one song as reflected on the country airplay charts. I'm sure Billboard would be more than willing to take their money, and it would make me happy.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 18:14:02 GMT -5
^I think you just said it. The mediabase and bb airplay chart is going to determine the radio hits and this new chart is going to show the biggest hits overall. You continue to gloss over the issues I've presented with this new chart. Like others have said, my main issue is not the chart itself. It's Billboard just saying "hey guys, we decided, without any fan input, that this new chart is THE country chart. Our first #1 is a song that flopped on country radio, but Pop radio and Taylor's rabid young fanbase worldwide love the song, so it's our first #1 on the NEW Billboard Hot Country Songs!" I never said this new chart shows the biggest hits overall. Again, Lumpster just said it...we already have the Hot 100. What this new chart emphasizes is sales and streaming. And who buys singles and streams songs? Lots of people, but mostly, younger fans. Layne, I get that you have an issue with radio politics. I do too, although it's clear I like the airplay charts more than you. But do you really want the MAIN Billboard country chart being controlled by a bunch of (mostly) teenage and 20-something aged individuals worldwide, who rush to iTunes to buy a single at midnight, are the first to stream it on Spotify, and may not care at all about country radio? These are serious issues. "Red" is #2 yet we have no clue if it's going to be a single at country radio. I mean, Taylor can sell 200-300k singles a week, yet nearly every other country star is lucky if they can cross 50k. Can't you see that that's a problem? It's NOT a fair chart. If labels and radio people were playing favorites before and buying airplay hits, how is it better to let a massive global group of fans, most of whom don't care at all about country music and country radio, to determine the main country chart? Maybe before there was chart manipulation by the labels, but now we're letting fans getting involved, and buying their favorite artists #1 hits! And to top it off, like I mentioned, you'll have the big labels start to play the game too, discounting a single to boost its sales...stuff like that. The sales charts do measure what people are buying, and those songs are HITS. But so are the songs on the radio. And there never has been a direct correlation between airplay and sales, so mixing the two makes no sense to me. I hate to seem like I want to keep picking on Taylor, but here's what'll happen...she'll win all the fan-voted awards (which are bogus as well, imo) and then get up there and be all 'shocked', saying "oh my gosh, I can't thank my fans nearly enough! Without you my songs wouldn't do nearly as well. You guys are what makes them #1!" and then all her fans will sigh and be like "OMG, Taylor is soooo awesome, she thanks us for buying her songs and helping them get to #1!". It's nothing but a big popularity contest now. There's no rule that says artists can't release 1 song a week if they wanted to. Which means Taylor could set all kinds of country records. And do you really think the majority of the people buying her songs right now (buying her #1's) are country fans? I don't. I keep thinking of poor George Strait and Alan Jackson, and how they are going to get shoved out the door. I do think sales are cool to follow. But why do you think songs sell well? They get heard on the radio. When people stream songs, the most-streamed songs are radio singles. But I don't think radio programming should be based off of what's selling the most, and that's what I'm concerned about...that PD's will change the way they program to more reflect this new national chart Billboard has come up with.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 18:17:39 GMT -5
Well, there goes everyone else's fantastic chart records -- Carrie, Blake, Jason, Kenny, etc. Congratulations to Taylor. You will now control Country weekly with each of your individual Pop releases. Anyone want to see if "I Knew You Were Trouble" debuts at #1 next week? I mean, it's selling the best and is already receiving Pop airplay, so naturally that's enough to be the #1 song in...Country music -- even with its dubstep and all. Taylor's Pop leaning singles will not be charting on country, per Billboard's editor. And Taylor's weekly releases will be over next week. This only benefits her short terms. Plenty of other artists will benefit from this rule change once things balance out, it's just the first week and she just happened to be dominating iTunes. Eh, I'll see it when I believe it. Seeing as IKYWT is #1 on iTunes Country (as well as overall), I'm curious to see if Billboard picks up on it, as well. If IKYWT is actually certified as a Country #1 hit, then I'll honestly be mortified. It's getting Pop airplay, too, no? Amazing sales + crossover airplay = Country #1, clearly. I mean, just look at the new chart!
|
|
onebuffalo
Diamond Member
#LiteralLegender
I am One Buffalo.
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 26,610
|
Post by onebuffalo on Oct 11, 2012 18:18:24 GMT -5
It is a good thing Billboard is not in charge of this year's election. Otherwise, votes from Canada and Mexico would count!
|
|
michellef
New Member
Joined: January 2009
Posts: 104
|
Post by michellef on Oct 11, 2012 18:18:45 GMT -5
jhomes, why must you say everything that i think so clearly?! :'(
|
|
onebuffalo
Diamond Member
#LiteralLegender
I am One Buffalo.
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 26,610
|
Post by onebuffalo on Oct 11, 2012 18:27:37 GMT -5
New recurrent rules for the new chart: The week’s most popular country songs, ranked by radio airplay audience impressions as measured by Nielsen BDS, sales data as compiled by Nielsen SoundScan and streaming activity data from online music sources tracked by Nielsen BDS. Descending titles below No. 25 are moved to recurrent after 20 weeks. That means as long as a song is still selling well, it can stay on for as long as it wants. I do not want to see a bunch of old songs clogging up the charts. As long as they are streaming well, it could take forever (not really) to get them off the chart. What was Billboard thinking?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 18:29:02 GMT -5
New recurrent rules for the new chart: The week’s most popular country songs, ranked by radio airplay audience impressions as measured by Nielsen BDS, sales data as compiled by Nielsen SoundScan and streaming activity data from online music sources tracked by Nielsen BDS. Descending titles below No. 25 are moved to recurrent after 20 weeks. That means as long as a song is still selling well, it can stay on for as long as it wants. I do not want to see a bunch of old songs clogging up the charts. As long as they are streaming well, it could take forever (not really) to get them off the chart. What was Billboard thinking? Hm. "Before He Cheats" and "You Belong With Me" still sell thousands of copies weekly. RE-ENTRIES!
|
|
Lozzy
Diamond Member
Joined: January 2010
Posts: 49,237
|
Post by Lozzy on Oct 11, 2012 18:29:22 GMT -5
So that guarantees "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together" will spend 10 years on the chart. Hmph.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 18:35:07 GMT -5
^jhomes87, ok maybe good song isn't the best word. A HIT is a song that the masses are buying and streaming. Why should radio alone be responsible for determining what songs are HITS? Radio isn't the only thing that determines a hit song. You just said that, and I've never disagreed. If you look through my posting history, you'll see posts where I noted that "Red Solo Cup" will go down as Toby Keith's biggest career hit, or "Kick It In The Sticks" is very much a big hit for Brantley Gilbert. Radio, in general, plays what the masses enjoy. Kenny, Brad, Keith, Carrie, ZBB, etc all get quick trips up the chart. They've earned their way, through years of touring, making music, radio tours, hard work, etc. Their album sales and touring numbers clearly show them as the most popular artists. But things get too messy when you let sales and crossover airplay into the picture. Now Billboard's new chart is worse than the Mediabase chart, because they don't tell us how they compile the chart. WANEGBT is clearly a HUGE hit. It's already sold more than 2 million copies worldwide. But why is it the #1 country song? The country version wasn't for sale. Its getting virtually no country airplay anymore, so it's clear that it's pop airplay is making it #1 on the country chart. This just illustrates that a song doesn't need to be a big airplay hit to be considered a big hit, and that's all I've really been saying. That, and the fact that there is no direct correlation between airplay and sales, so they should not be lumped together in one chart. jhomes, why must you say everything that i think so clearly?! :'( I can read your mind, that's why! ;)
|
|
layne
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2011
Posts: 1,378
|
Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 18:57:33 GMT -5
jhomes87: It's clear you and I disagree on things. I probably have my feelings based on where I'm employed and some things I know that have happened with radio and their deciding a song doesn't get played because of songwriters or someone they don't like with a label etc. I think it's good to have Mediabase and now another chart that does reflect what the fans think are the biggest hits. Taylor Swift shouldn't have to apologize for having so many fans that buy music. The young fans are the same one's that voted Carrie Underwood as American Idol and continue to buy and stream her music as well. Does the fact that they are young fans that spend money make them "fake" music fans? Music is about what connects and moves people. I just don't think Radio alone should determine if a song or Artist breaks through. The music industry can't survive if people aren't buying music.
|
|
joey2002
6x Platinum Member
Joined: January 2009
Posts: 6,372
|
Post by joey2002 on Oct 11, 2012 19:10:26 GMT -5
I dont have a problem with BB compiling this chart , what I do have a problem with is BB saying this is THE country chart. Exactly. If Billboard really wants to publish a "country hot 100", that's fine, but don't disregard the airplay chart.
|
|
Arabella21
Platinum Member
Joined: January 2007
Posts: 1,381
|
Post by Arabella21 on Oct 11, 2012 19:16:21 GMT -5
Sales/airplay/streaming being used to capture the different ways that songs can be popular at a given moment in time and combining those measures all into one chart, that's fine with me. I only mind that sales of pop mixes and airplay of pop mixes now count for something on the country charts, particularly the "main" chart of record. Rather than rewarding the country sound (I'm not a huge purist, I don't think it's one fixed thing that can't evolve over time), the new Billboard rules seem to give the biggest reward to de-countryfying altogether and going pop, on a genre chart. These rule changes are well-meaning but incredibly misguided particularly where country is concerned.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2012 19:19:18 GMT -5
I just don't think Radio alone should determine if a song or Artist breaks through. The music industry can't survive if people aren't buying music. I've never said this either. Social Media is extremely important. Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc. There are TONS of ways to get music out there. But I just don't think you can add so many different things together. If you look at the Hot 100 threads here on Pulse, people bicker about things all the time. Airplay is weighted too heavy! Sales are weighted too heavy! Damn that Katy Perry and her label, for discounting her song to 69 cents and quickly throwing a remix with so-and-so out there to get a #1. It never ends. What makes one ratio of airplay-to-sales better than another? There will never be a correct answer to that. The people who like sales more will always want sales to be weighted more, and the airplay followers will want airplay to be more important. The charts will never be fair. But what I think you are forgetting, layne, is that label manipulation and politics won't become less with this new chart. It might very well become worse. In Taylor's case, WANEGBT was already #1 on Billboard's Country Digital Songs for weeks. People already know what's selling and what's not. But I don't see any sense in mixing that with airplay. They are two entirely separate things. I don't have any plans to post anymore in this thread. I think I've said what I feel...there should be separate charts for airplay and sales. No, I don't think Taylor should be penalized for having so many music-buying fans, but I don't think she should be awarded #1's on national charts because of it, either. One could argue that George Strait's fanbase is just as big, because more people see his tours than a lot of other artists. Yet even his top airplay songs (such as Here For A Good Time and Love's Gonna Make It Alright) barely sell anything on iTunes. Why? His fans are older...they are gonna wait to buy a full album. I think I'm too hooked on this hobby to leave, but in my future chart-watching, the Country Airplay chart will be the Billboard chart, and this new version of "Billboard Hot Country Songs"...well, let's just say it will be non-existent to me. I don't get what the point of it is, what it measures, etc. I don't know how they compile it. It's not a chart I care to follow.
|
|
layne
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2011
Posts: 1,378
|
Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 19:20:42 GMT -5
Sales/airplay/streaming being used to capture the different ways that songs can be popular at a given moment in time and combining those measures all into one chart, that's fine with me. I only mind that sales of pop mixes and airplay of pop mixes now count for something on the country charts, particularly the "main" chart of record. Rather than rewarding the country sound (I'm not a huge purist, I don't think it's one fixed thing that can't evolve over time), the new Billboard rules seem to give the biggest reward de-countryfying altogether and going pop, on a genre chart. These rule changes are well-meaning but incredibly misguided particularly where country is concerned. Looking at this particular chart seems to indicate that Pop and Country Airplay aren't weighed nearly as heavy as sales. The #2 song has 0 airplay on either chart but it's still ahead of the #1 airplay song on Country "Blown Away" .
|
|
layne
Platinum Member
Joined: February 2011
Posts: 1,378
|
Post by layne on Oct 11, 2012 19:22:37 GMT -5
I just don't think Radio alone should determine if a song or Artist breaks through. The music industry can't survive if people aren't buying music. I've never said this either. Social Media is extremely important. Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc. There are TONS of ways to get music out there. But I just don't think you can add so many different things together. If you look at the Hot 100 threads here on Pulse, people bicker about things all the time. Airplay is weighted too heavy! Sales are weighted too heavy! Damn that Katy Perry and her label, for discounting her song to 69 cents and quickly throwing a remix with so-and-so out there to get a #1. It never ends. The charts will never be fair. But what I think you are forgetting, layne, is that label manipulation and politics won't become less with this new chart. It might very well become worse. I don't have any plans to post anymore in this thread. I think I've said what I feel...there should be separate charts for airplay and sales. No, I don't think Taylor should be penalized for having so many music-buying fans, but I don't think she should be awarded #1's on national charts because of it, either. One could argue that George Strait's fanbase is just as big, because more people see his tours than a lot of other artists. Yet even his top airplay songs (such as Here For A Good Time and Love's Gonna Make It Alright) barely sell anything on iTunes. Why? His fans are older...they are gonna wait to buy a full album. WANEGBT was already #1 on Billboard's Country Digital Songs for weeks. People already know what's selling and what's not. But I don't see any sense in mixing that with airplay. They are two entirely separate things. I think I'm too hooked on this hobby to leave, but in my future chart-watching, the Country Airplay chart will be the Billboard chart, and this new version of "Billboard Hot Country Songs"...well, let's just say it will be non-existent to me. I don't get what the point of it is, what it measures, etc. I don't know how they compile it. It's not a chart I care to follow. I never said you said anything. These are just my thoughts just as you are posting yours.
|
|
onebuffalo
Diamond Member
#LiteralLegender
I am One Buffalo.
Joined: June 2009
Posts: 26,610
|
Post by onebuffalo on Oct 11, 2012 19:44:11 GMT -5
You know what that means? We could potentially have two The One That Got Aways on the chart. One by Jake Owen, the other by Katy Perry!
|
|