Marv
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Post by Marv on Oct 20, 2015 14:13:20 GMT -5
If they've got another tune as exceptional as 'Dirt' coming down the pike, then so be it; none of the rest of their singles have done anything for me given the very narrow range of topics explored in their singles so far.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 14:22:02 GMT -5
I don't think Columbia's push for Kenny had anything to do with Arista's promotion efforts for "Little Toy Guns," while I do agree that "Wild Child" definitely took a big push. If every time a big push for a song occurred, all other songs in the label group had a slow week, I think the charts would be ridiculously shaky. LTG clearly didn't pose a threat to WC the week of Kenny's push, so there would have been no reason for Arista to slack off on its job while Columbia did a push.
I do agree that "Something in the Water" was involved in some outrageous chart manipulation that resulted in its missing #1. However, it seems hypocritical that there is outrage when Carrie misses #1 to help her label-mates, while when Florida Georgia Line's #1 chances are hurt by label machinations, we're having arguments about whether there's enough proof that the manipulation really did happen, or whether it's actually fair or not. Obviously I can't produce tape recorded phone calls or emails by Republic Nashville staff asking radio stations to hold off on "Anything Goes," but if what we have seen isn't enough proof then I don't think we have enough proof that "Something in the Water" really was involved in shady label manipulations, either. I'm 95% certain that "Anything Goes" took one for the team here, as I'm 95% sure that SITW was sacrificed for similar purposes.
What we saw with "Anything Goes," nearly reaching a negative seven-day spins bullet on Mediabase just before it passed "Fly," simply does not happen with almost everything outside the top 10. In fact, it almost never happens with A-list stars.
I've had many discussions about the unfairness of research in the country format, but while I think females generally tend to be the most negatively impacted by radio's narrow target demographic, we see plenty of songs sell well but not measure up in terms of research and, consequently, airplay, including songs with male lead vocals ("Like a Wrecking Ball," "White Lightning," "Withdrawals" to name a few). It's definitely a problem that country radio only targets a narrow demographic of current listeners when they could expand to a wider audience by playing songs that are showing signs of resonating with fans outside the current country radio audience. However, the actions taken to correct this problem should not involve penalizing other stars or sacrificing legitimate hits. Country radio should give these songs a chance, but it's not fair to kill other songs' momentum in an effort to fight the good fight for these songs. Seems like affirmative action to me.
Simply the fact that labels are able to do this sort of stuff speaks volumes about the lack of authenticity of country radio and the country airplay charts. A radio station should make radio programming decisions based on whatever numbers it chooses to use to assess the popularity of the current singles. There's no way it's right for a label to be able to so heavily influence radio's programming decisions that a song can be artificially stalled as much as "Anything Goes" was in the top 15. This is really just another version of label manipulations like the big pushes for "Love You Like That" or "Homegrown Honey" that Pulse users were so upset about. Honestly sometimes it seems like some users aren't so upset about chart manipulations as they are about seeing the bros do well. There's a noticeably different reaction when label manipulation occurs in favor of the bros than when it occurs against the bros. I think this tendency to react differently may be inadvertent, but to me it still comes across as hypocritical.
While I will always encourage country radio to expand its demographic by playing stuff like "Dibs," "Girl Crush," "White Lightning," "Smokin' and Drinkin'," and other songs that sell really well despite poor research scores, I will never approve of a label trying to force radio to do this at the expense of other hits. And I do not hold Big Machine to a double-standard here. I even griped about manipulation against SITW and SB (which Carrie's fans have even quoted on other sites) despite my severe loathing of these songs. However, in cases like "Anything Goes," which may actually reach a lower peak position on the airplay charts as a result of the manipulation, I think the manipulation is especially frustrating, and we don't see this too often, which is why I'm more upset about it here.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 20, 2015 15:00:44 GMT -5
I don't think Columbia's push for Kenny had anything to do with Arista's promotion efforts for "Little Toy Guns," while I do agree that "Wild Child" definitely took a big push. If every time a big push for a song occurred, all other songs in the label group had a slow week, I think the charts would be ridiculously shaky. LTG clearly didn't pose a threat to WC the week of Kenny's push, so there would have been no reason for Arista to slack off on its job while Columbia did a push. We've seen within label family coordination all the time, though and there are plenty of instances over the years in which Sony songs in or near the top-10 magically slowed down when another Sony single (like "Welcome to the Future" and "White Liar") was headed to #1. It may have been more an issue of syndicated spins meant for "Little Toy Guns" being thrown to "Wild Child" instead, but the sudden slowdown of "Little Toy Guns" during "Wild Child"'s final week is unlikely to have been a coincidence. I do agree that "Something in the Water" was involved in some outrageous chart manipulation that resulted in its missing #1. However, it seems hypocritical that there is outrage when Carrie misses #1 to help her label-mates, while when Florida Georgia Line's #1 chances are hurt by label machinations, we're having arguments about whether there's enough proof that the manipulation really did happen, or whether it's actually fair or not. It's a matter of degrees -- a big part of the argument against the slowdown imposed on "Something in the Water" is that it was, by every other indication, a huge hit, and a bigger one than the songs around it that did hit #1. Part of the argument in this thread is that "Anything Goes" isn't such an undeniable hit that if there was a push favoring "Fly" that hurt "Anything Goes" for a few weeks and left it vulnerable to being blocked by two bigger hits ("Strip It Down" and "Break Up with Him"), it's worthy of outrage. Moreover, subjective considerations aside, the fact that "Something in the Water" would have been the first solo female single to hit #1 at Billboard in over two years in a time when the deck has been severely stacked against female artists also added to the disappointment. However, the actions taken to correct this problem should not involve penalizing other stars With finite airplay time and promotional resources, it's inherently a zero sum game. One which, for the past few years in particular, has prevented many a female talent from even launching in the country market, let alone scoring a hit. If we really want to talk about who is being penalized in the current system, there are many, many artists to discuss before Florida-Georgia Line can reasonably be brought up. Seems like affirmative action to me. Because institutionalized racism was never a thing with real, lasting consequences for certain racial minorities, either, right? There's a noticeably different reaction when label manipulation occurs in favor of the bros than when it occurs against the bros. To the extent that that's the case, it probably has something to do with the fact that the bros have been gifted every advantage at country radio over the past few years, often in disproportionate quantity relative to their commercial appeal, and so any ebbing of that advantage reads as a step toward a fairer balance.
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bboat11
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Post by bboat11 on Oct 20, 2015 15:11:14 GMT -5
While I will always encourage country radio to expand its demographic by playing stuff like "Dibs," "Girl Crush," "White Lightning," "Smokin' and Drinkin'," and other songs that sell really well despite poor research scores, I will never approve of a label trying to force radio to do this at the expense of other hits. And I do not hold Big Machine to a double-standard here. I even griped about manipulation against SITW and SB (which Carrie's fans have even quoted on other sites) despite my severe loathing of these songs. However, in cases like "Anything Goes," which may actually reach a lower peak position on the airplay charts as a result of the manipulation, I think the manipulation is especially frustrating, and we don't see this too often, which is why I'm more upset about it here. I think by harping on about this it seems like you think this manipulation is a BIGGER deal now that it is happening to FGL than it was when it has happened to anybody else. You did say above that you griped about it when it has happened to other songs, but then immediately afterwards in the bolded part you made it sound like you are more upset about it here than you have been in previous cases. The fact is, we DO frequently see big songs peaking lower as a result of label manipulation, so the attitude that this is for some reason a bigger deal now is the reason that nobody seems to agree with you. Especially because the group to whom it is happening has come out on the sunny side of radio's antics 99% of their career thus far. Plus, peaking at #2 could scarcely be considered disappointing. I can think of dozens of artists who would kill right now for a #2 single. It's not like this song dropped off the chart at #11 because of Big Machine's antics. THAT would have definitely been unacceptable manipulation. Anyway, on top of all that, it hasn't even peaked yet, so there is really no reason to be complaining so profusely about hypothetical outcomes that may or may not even happen.
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phil1996
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Post by phil1996 on Oct 20, 2015 16:07:49 GMT -5
Saw someone post somewhere recently that a video for "Confession" was shot. Probably the best song they've recorded. (Either that or Smoke)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 16:44:15 GMT -5
bboat11, I do think this chart manipulation is a bigger deal now. But that's not because it's being done to a song I like. As I said in the very statement you boldfaced, the reason it's worse in this case it's because it's actually harming the peak position of this song. The only other time this year I can recall a song ending up with a lower peak position due to label manipulation was "Something in the Water," which received a drastically different reaction than "Anything Goes" is receiving. And for the record, I don't see any way AG is any more deniable a hit than SITW. If anything, radio would have naturally shown more resistance to Carrie's tune, as the week it peaked on the airplay charts, it had the second highest negativity rate (29.5%) and highest burn rate (14.6%) on the Mediabase callout report. FGL's numbers show a small degree of polarization among listeners like "Strip It Down"'s numbers do, but Carrie's negative research for SITW makes AG's numbers look fantastic in comparison. Also, I wouldn't say FGL has ever benefited from radio's "antics." FGL's songs have always naturally had more momentum, and label manipulation and artificial chart runs have only hurt them. (Even going back as far as "Cruise," FGL could have spent many more weeks at #1 had Big Machine not pulled their record after its second week at #1 to gear up for the #1 push "Til My Last Day" received two weeks later.) I think there is a fundamental disagreement I have with the rest of Pulse. Since I don't lump artists into categories like "bros" and "females," I don't view "Anything Goes" getting screwed on the charts as a fair balance of other bro-country songs (like "Homegrown Honey") being given a disproportionately high radio reaction in the past. The fact is this is a hit song that is very likely to be screwed out of a #1 it would have gotten if sleazy label antics hadn't gotten in the way. The fact that other label manipulations have benefited other bros in the past is totally irrelevant to whether what's going on here is fair and does not justify this missing #1, especially since it accomplished nothing for "Fly." Big Machine has only succeeded in making a big mess here and reminding me why I don't take the airplay charts as seriously as I used to. Basically, the impression I'm getting is that it's acceptable for labels to manipulate the charts as long as the manipulation hurts "the bad stuff" and helps the "good stuff." Never mind that Maddie & Tae themselves have been far from underrated by country radio in the past.
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hosssulpizio
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Post by hosssulpizio on Oct 20, 2015 20:48:53 GMT -5
Maddie & Tae are not underrated! They just got screwed by FGL on the charts. "Fly" should be higher up than number nine and "Anything Goes" should have lost momentum. I'm sick and tired of the manipulation of radio and I think someone should buck the system and make some changes at Country radio. This manipulation is making it extremely unfair for the actually good artists to have songs going up the charts. It is pushing terrible songs like "Anything Goes" and "Let Me See Ya Girl" up the charts, therefore making sure that they can screw as many artists as possible out of hits. Of course radio is allowing many good artists to have hits, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere to prevent terrible songs from moving up the charts by manipulation of radio.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 20, 2015 21:13:01 GMT -5
And for the record, I don't see any way AG is any more deniable a hit than SITW. If anything, radio would have naturally shown more resistance to Carrie's tune, as the week it peaked on the airplay charts, it had the second highest negativity rate (29.5%) and highest burn rate (14.6%) on the Mediabase callout report. The fact that you chose to leave out the fact that "Something in the Water" also had that week's highest favorite response (28.7%) by a healthy margin and to ignore "Something in the Water"'s sales and streams contradicts your earlier point about how radio should approach hits here: It's definitely a problem that country radio only targets a narrow demographic of current listeners when they could expand to a wider audience by playing songs that are showing signs of resonating with fans outside the current country radio audience. ... While I will always encourage country radio to expand its demographic by playing stuff like "Dibs," "Girl Crush," "White Lightning," "Smokin' and Drinkin'," and other songs that sell really well despite poor research scores, Moreover, your selective use of callout to make the case for "Anything Goes"' is inconsistent with all the gnashing of teeth that you did over the way "Save It for a Rainy Day" versus "John Cougar, John Deere, John 3:16" panned out at Billboard, because "Save It for a Rainy Day" tested better than did "John Cougar, John Deere, John 3:16" at time of peak despite selling considerably less (let me note here that I actually do think "John..." was a considerably bigger hit and should have been treated by radio as such). Not only that, both "Strip It Down" and "Break Up with Him" are testing better than "Anything Goes" at the moment, with comparable if not lower negatives and significantly lower burn. So based on the same metrics that you tried to use to rationalize "Anything Goes" as a natural radio hit relative to "Something in the Water," "Anything Goes" should be losing out to "Strip It Down" and "Break Up with Him" now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 21:42:16 GMT -5
I never once said "Something in the Water" did not have the numbers to warrant being a hit. The point I was trying to make, 43dudleyvillas, was in response to comments that "Anything Goes" could be arguably more deniable a hit than "Something in the Water" to explain why there was more discontent among Pulse users about the latter missing #1. If we're not going to make the same case against "Something in the Water," then we shouldn't make it against "Anything Goes" since SITW had even more polarizing research numbers. I don't agree that it should be made against either song, which is why I think both should be/should have been #1 hits on Billboard Country Airplay, but if anything there's more of a case that one can draw up against SITW than AG, so it wouldn't make sense to say that it's more unfair for "Something in the Water" to have suffered from chart manipulation than "Anything Goes." I was not purposely trying to ignore the strong positive research, sales, or streaming; they simply had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. And obviously we can't use sales to compare a lead single to a fourth single. The same applies for the argument about which was a bigger hit out of "John Cougar, John Deere, John 3:16" and "Save It for a Rainy Day." I never tried to make the case that research should matter more than other metrics of assessing hits like sales and streaming, which is why I felt that JJJ should have been a Billboard #1. Additionally, I was unhappy with the way things panned out in this situation because JJJ reached record high airplay totals on Mediabase and broke HYGLT's audience record on Billboard. It seemed quite ironic that a song reaching higher airplay totals than any other song had in a full year would miss #1.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 20, 2015 22:13:39 GMT -5
The point I was trying to make, 43dudleyvillas, was in response to comments that "Anything Goes" could be arguably more deniable a hit than "Something in the Water" to explain why there was more discontent among Pulse users about the latter missing #1. If we're not going to make the same case against "Something in the Water," then we shouldn't make it against "Anything Goes" since SITW had even more polarizing research numbers. You're arguing in circles at this point. The discontent over "Something in the Water" not hitting #1 at radio was premised on the fact that everyone knew it went against every radio trend that was working at the time but had very demonstrably connected with enough of an audience to become one of country's biggest hits of the year. So if songs like "Something in the Water" (and even more to the point, "Girl Crush") couldn't hit #1 even with their monster numbers, what hope was there for other non-formulaic smashes, especially those voiced by women? "Anything Goes," on the other hand, is, down to its last lyrical cliché, exactly what has been supported by country radio for the past few years and also completely standard Florida-Georgia Line fare, so it surprises no one that it might be less polarizing to country radio listeners who are at this point conditioned to familiarity with this type of song. But it does show some signs of diminishing returns (in sales, in callout) to the bro formula and it's for that reason that you're not seeing the discontent that it might get blocked from a Billboard #1. The difference in reaction is explained by the fact that SitW was simply up against more at radio and connected anyway, whereas "Anything Goes" is typical radio fare that coasts on a many-times-over proven formula.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 22:43:08 GMT -5
I'm not arguing in circles. I'm responding to criticisms that my ideas contradict themselves. But, basically, what I am understanding is that chart manipulation is only worthy of complaints when it benefits "non-formulaic" songs. There are no concrete numbers that show "Something in the Water" was a bigger hit than "Anything Goes," but because it's more surprising for the former to have those numbers, there is more discontent when it is affected by chart manipulation than the latter? Okay. I strongly disagree with this logic, but I'm glad to at least have a clear understanding of the opposing viewpoint, finally. Chart manipulation will always bother me, regardless of the song(s) involved. One more thing I will say is that I just don't see the diminishing numbers for "Anything Goes" that others are seeing. This is selling fine for a fourth single. (It's actually hardly selling worse than "Save It for a Rainy Day.") Album sales are holding up. FGL's research numbers have always been polarizing. Both "Get Your Shine On" and "This Is How We Roll" had high negative and burn rates on the Mediabase Callout report, and these were back when FGL were considered to be at their peak popularity. I think it's just a common thing for songs that are really popular with one audience to have highly polarizing numbers. Anyway, I don't want to get into a repetitive argument, so 43dudleyvillas, maybe we could continue this via PM? Or have we just reached an "agree to disagree" point?
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 20, 2015 22:49:57 GMT -5
There are no concrete numbers that show "Something in the Water" was a bigger hit than "Anything Goes," Sure there are: "Something in the Water"'s considerably superior "favorite" numbers in callout.
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.indulgecountry
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Post by .indulgecountry on Oct 20, 2015 23:28:23 GMT -5
There are no concrete numbers that show "Something in the Water" was a bigger hit than "Anything Goes," Sure there are: "Something in the Water"'s considerably superior "favorite" numbers in callout. Or the fact that it was a consistently huge seller and has sold like 3x more copies than "Anything Goes" has.
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bksouthga
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Post by bksouthga on Oct 20, 2015 23:48:26 GMT -5
I'd just like to take a quick moment to note that I am still hearing "Save it for a Rainy Day" on the radio, not so much for JJJ. SIFARD is still ranked on MB, while JJJ has gone recurrent. SIFARD is also ranked one spot HIGHER than the subsequent #1, "Lose My Mind". So i find the recurring argument that JJJ is a bigger hit to be very arguable.
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bboat11
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Post by bboat11 on Oct 21, 2015 0:37:38 GMT -5
Whatever happens to this song, it has not peaked yet. So arguing about how the label might have screwed this song up through manipulation is simply pointless at this time. It could very well still hit #1.
And if it doesn't, we are inevitably going to have this same exact conversation again in a couple weeks anyway... Right now, all we can do is wait and see.
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bksouthga
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Post by bksouthga on Oct 21, 2015 22:56:25 GMT -5
I have to say that it would not bother me a bit if Old Dominion passed FGL and hit #1 next week. As you all know I care much more about the quality of a song (or at least my opinion of that!) than the mechanics of the charts. And I would much rather have a song of any style that is written and played by a band rather than one that is overproduced and overly electronic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 6:24:59 GMT -5
Looks like Sony isn't playing nice yet again. I'm almost wondering if FGL will get a Billboard-only #1, which I can't remember the last time that happened in recent years.
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on Oct 22, 2015 9:33:19 GMT -5
I'm almost wondering if FGL will get a Billboard-only #1, which I can't remember the last time that happened in recent years. "Drunk Last Night"
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Ten Pound Hammer
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Post by Ten Pound Hammer on Oct 22, 2015 12:36:02 GMT -5
Wasn't Drunk Last Night only because Mediabase freezes the chart for a week?
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on Oct 22, 2015 12:54:53 GMT -5
Wasn't Drunk Last Night only because Mediabase freezes the chart for a week? No. "Drunk Last Night" hit #1 on the December 16th, 2013 issued Billboard Airplay chart, while Parmalee's "Carolina" maintained the MB #1 for a second week on that date. Other Billboard only #1's include "It's America", "Country Boy", "Free And Easy", "Online", "Ticks", "More Than A Memory" and "Somebody."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 12:58:57 GMT -5
Do you guys think Big Machine is pumping the brakes so Old Dominion can get a week at the top next week once Luke goes and then Old Dominion takes the top spot, then FGL gets a week at the top.
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avalyn
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Post by avalyn on Oct 22, 2015 14:07:05 GMT -5
Curious, has it been confirmed yet if Confessions is the next single? The band filmed a video in September, I think it was, for the song. I wasn't sure if that was confirmation for a single with them or it was just a random song they decided to do a video for.
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hosssulpizio
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Post by hosssulpizio on Oct 22, 2015 14:09:21 GMT -5
Do you guys think Big Machine is pumping the brakes so Old Dominion can get a week at the top next week once Luke goes and then Old Dominion takes the top spot, then FGL gets a week at the top. I sure hope so. Old Dominion is more deserving of a number one than FGL. They don't deserve much since they have been releasing putrid songs.
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Kat5Kind
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Post by Kat5Kind on Oct 22, 2015 14:13:35 GMT -5
Do you guys think Big Machine is pumping the brakes so Old Dominion can get a week at the top next week once Luke goes and then Old Dominion takes the top spot, then FGL gets a week at the top. I sure hope so. Old Dominion is more deserving of a number one than FGL. They don't deserve much since they have been releasing putrid songs. Excuse me? I think Old Dominion's song is far worse.
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Markus Meyer
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Post by Markus Meyer on Oct 22, 2015 14:14:54 GMT -5
Curious, has it been confirmed yet if Confessions is the next single? The band filmed a video in September, I think it was, for the song. I wasn't sure if that was confirmation for a single with them or it was just a random song they decided to do a video for. Pretty sure their next single will be a lead single (believe that was confirmed by the band themselves). I would be thrilled if they went with "Confession", but I don't think it'll happen.
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hosssulpizio
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Post by hosssulpizio on Oct 22, 2015 14:17:06 GMT -5
"Break Up With Him" is not nerve racking though. FGL just gets on my nerves all the time. Tyler is a terrible singer and really Brian is the only one who can sing good. The only song I actually like by them now is "Dirt" and that's it.
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dm2081
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Post by dm2081 on Oct 22, 2015 14:31:56 GMT -5
Curious, has it been confirmed yet if Confessions is the next single? The band filmed a video in September, I think it was, for the song. I wasn't sure if that was confirmation for a single with them or it was just a random song they decided to do a video for. They said a while ago in an interview that "Anything Goes" is the last single from this era. I think it was posted earlier in this thread somewhere. It's possible they've changed their minds since then, but they sounded as if they had something already picked out and recorded. I hope they do release "Confession" though, as it's probably the strongest song they've recorded.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 15:03:03 GMT -5
"Break Up With Him" is not nerve racking though. definitely disagree with this. Sorry to derail this thread but BUWH is in every way shape and form nerve racking. The male narrator is a complete d-bag throughout the entire course of the song.
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bksouthga
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Post by bksouthga on Oct 22, 2015 16:50:26 GMT -5
"Break Up With Him" is not nerve racking though. definitely disagree with this. Sorry to derail this thread but BUWH is in every way shape and form nerve racking. The male narrator is a complete d-bag throughout the entire course of the song. The difference in these two songs can easily be described by couple of knobs on the radio in my car. When "break up with him" comes on, I adjust the volume knob. When "anything goes" comes on, I adjust the tuner knob.
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on Oct 25, 2015 14:34:12 GMT -5
KCYY in San Antonio and KRTY in San Jose have started playing "Confession", as its officially picked up spins on those two stations.
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