samsager3
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Post by samsager3 on Oct 1, 2015 23:11:14 GMT -5
So Trebor should have never compared the songs? But he wasn't met with argumentative language like I was. The truth is this board as a whole hates when people go against their favorites. I'm sorry I have never been a sugarland fan at all and I have liked james Otto all up until this last song. That being said your right comparing these songs won't do munch good and the only reason I was even making such an assumption is because an analysis was being made saying this song was taking spins that would go to them and my whole point was those spins wouldn't just go to them by default. Regarding the James Otto and Kristian Bush thing, I think you are focusing hyper-specifically on one thing trebor said, and in the process skewing his whole argument and putting words in his mouth. This is what he said: Nowhere did he say that if Andy Grammer had never released this song to country radio, those spins would have automatically gone to James Otto and Kristian Bush. What he is saying is that because "Honey, I'm Good" is on the country charts, there is one less spot available for everyone else. James and Kristian were just a couple of examples of artists who are fighting to make it onto the chart right now; he could have easily mentioned dozens of other names. Such as Rainey Qualley, or even Don Henley/Martina. The names he chose are not relevant; the point is that one of those songs might have had the opportunity to chart had there been one more opening. If the song at #61 this week suddenly loses spins, it will disappear having never charted, whereas if "Honey, I'm Good" was not taking up chart space, that #61 song would probably have been able to make #60 this week, therefore making it onto a published chart before going recurrent. Sure, when a song's spins are that low, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things whether they peaked at #60 or never even made the chart. And it of course would be an egregious generalization to state that "Honey, I'm Good" is THE song that is preventing lower songs from charting. But Trebor is not making a specific argument that this song is preventing Kristian and James from charting; he is arguing from a matter of principle, saying that a crossover pop song should not necessarily take priority over songs by established country artists on country radio. You are of course right when you say that the spins would not go to James and Kristian by default. You're both right! The problem is that you are arguing with points that Trebor didn't even make. He was not met with argumentative language because he has said nothing to warrant argument. He has offered opinions, thereby contributing to the discussion. Also, I am sorry you feel that this forum plays favorites. I know that I like to think of it as a welcoming place to have healthy discussions about music, and I am sorry your experience has been different. What I have found is that it can be difficult to have healthy discussions if people do not take the time to thoroughly understand each other. The thing is though, you right he mentioned those two artists it didn't matter who he mentioned it would have had the same effect. The fact of the matter is I take a different stance on the subject than he does. While he obviously thinks it's the radio programmers job to ensure song that he considers country should be pushed ahead of a crossover hit, I believe that duty falls on the label. If they can't get their artist enough hype and promoting and their artists fails to make the top 60 it's not the fault of a crossover hit that did. I mean for that matter we know that " run away with you" isn't gonna go to the top all the way so it's taking a spot from one of these songs. The say I took it was like he was saying these songs deserve that spot over " honey I'm good" and I'm sorry I disagree because if songs like this didn't get released artists would neve be forced to up their game in order to get past them all just my oppinion. As far as this board playing favorites, I'm not here to get into a fight but trust me this is a very feminist board. If you say one negative thing about a female vocalist or one positive thing about what they consider bro or pop or r and b or whatever else they want to label it then your sarounded and hunted down. Again I don't care it has never stopped me from expressing my oppinion. An oppinion where I admired that while I like the song I don't like Eli young bands envolvment that I feel really added nothing to it.
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.indulgecountry
Diamond Member
Best Country Poster 2011, 2017, & 2018
"You left a mark on my face // And brought a dozen red flags in a vase"
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Post by .indulgecountry on Oct 1, 2015 23:51:38 GMT -5
As far as this board playing favorites, I'm not here to get into a fight but trust me this is a very feminist board. If you say one negative thing about a female vocalist or one positive thing about what they consider bro or pop or r and b or whatever else they want to label it then your sarounded and hunted down. Again I don't care it has never stopped me from expressing my oppinion. An oppinion where I admired that while I like the song I don't like Eli young bands envolvment that I feel really added nothing to it. Saying shit like this is why no one here takes you seriously. It's one thing to share your opinion, but it's another one to play a victim every time someone disagrees with them. Maybe the rest of the board isn't the one with the problem, maybe it's actually just you?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2015 5:21:48 GMT -5
Regarding the James Otto and Kristian Bush thing, I think you are focusing hyper-specifically on one thing trebor said, and in the process skewing his whole argument and putting words in his mouth. This is what he said: Nowhere did he say that if Andy Grammer had never released this song to country radio, those spins would have automatically gone to James Otto and Kristian Bush. What he is saying is that because "Honey, I'm Good" is on the country charts, there is one less spot available for everyone else. James and Kristian were just a couple of examples of artists who are fighting to make it onto the chart right now; he could have easily mentioned dozens of other names. Such as Rainey Qualley, or even Don Henley/Martina. The names he chose are not relevant; the point is that one of those songs might have had the opportunity to chart had there been one more opening. If the song at #61 this week suddenly loses spins, it will disappear having never charted, whereas if "Honey, I'm Good" was not taking up chart space, that #61 song would probably have been able to make #60 this week, therefore making it onto a published chart before going recurrent. Sure, when a song's spins are that low, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things whether they peaked at #60 or never even made the chart. And it of course would be an egregious generalization to state that "Honey, I'm Good" is THE song that is preventing lower songs from charting. But Trebor is not making a specific argument that this song is preventing Kristian and James from charting; he is arguing from a matter of principle, saying that a crossover pop song should not necessarily take priority over songs by established country artists on country radio. You are of course right when you say that the spins would not go to James and Kristian by default. You're both right! The problem is that you are arguing with points that Trebor didn't even make. He was not met with argumentative language because he has said nothing to warrant argument. He has offered opinions, thereby contributing to the discussion. Also, I am sorry you feel that this forum plays favorites. I know that I like to think of it as a welcoming place to have healthy discussions about music, and I am sorry your experience has been different. What I have found is that it can be difficult to have healthy discussions if people do not take the time to thoroughly understand each other. The thing is though, you right he mentioned those two artists it didn't matter who he mentioned it would have had the same effect. The fact of the matter is I take a different stance on the subject than he does. While he obviously thinks it's the radio programmers job to ensure song that he considers country should be pushed ahead of a crossover hit, I believe that duty falls on the label. If they can't get their artist enough hype and promoting and their artists fails to make the top 60 it's not the fault of a crossover hit that did. I mean for that matter we know that " run away with you" isn't gonna go to the top all the way so it's taking a spot from one of these songs. The say I took it was like he was saying these songs deserve that spot over " honey I'm good" and I'm sorry I disagree because if songs like this didn't get released artists would neve be forced to up their game in order to get past them all just my oppinion. As far as this board playing favorites, I'm not here to get into a fight but trust me this is a very feminist board. If you say one negative thing about a female vocalist or one positive thing about what they consider bro or pop or r and b or whatever else they want to label it then your sarounded and hunted down. Again I don't care it has never stopped me from expressing my oppinion. An oppinion where I admired that while I like the song I don't like Eli young bands envolvment that I feel really added nothing to it. The only think wrong with this board is trolls like you who make stupid comments like this. I've had several FRIENDLY conversations with people whose musical tastes don't reflect mine at all. Pulse is a music board where everyone is allowed to express their opinions - good or bad. I understand your opinion might feel like it's in the minority most of the time, but no one is saying what you can and can't like. Heck, even my opinion can sometimes be the unpopular opinion. I wish more people here liked Americana, but unfortunately we're a small group. Know what I did? I didn't quote someone saying they can't like Sam Hunt or FGL or Luke Bryan because they aren't country, I made a thread promoting artists like the ones I like. I didn't act like a victim. As .indulgecountry pointed out, you seem to play victim whenever someone doesn't like something you like, and then the threads get derailed through meaningless conversation. Saying that Pulse only loves females and hates bros? Please. We're a diverse group of people if you REALLY look at us. You're only "sarounded" and hunted down because YOU come after people whose opinions you don't like. As for this particular song, I don't hate it because I think Andy Grammar is the devil who's destroying country music. He's far from a problem, but he's certainly nowhere close to being the solution. Mainstream country radio ratings are in the toilet right now, the genres suffering an identity crsis, I mean the last thing the genre needs right now is a remixed pop song, not with the shape it's in.
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samsager3
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Posts: 329
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Post by samsager3 on Oct 2, 2015 6:49:29 GMT -5
The thing is though, you right he mentioned those two artists it didn't matter who he mentioned it would have had the same effect. The fact of the matter is I take a different stance on the subject than he does. While he obviously thinks it's the radio programmers job to ensure song that he considers country should be pushed ahead of a crossover hit, I believe that duty falls on the label. If they can't get their artist enough hype and promoting and their artists fails to make the top 60 it's not the fault of a crossover hit that did. I mean for that matter we know that " run away with you" isn't gonna go to the top all the way so it's taking a spot from one of these songs. The say I took it was like he was saying these songs deserve that spot over " honey I'm good" and I'm sorry I disagree because if songs like this didn't get released artists would neve be forced to up their game in order to get past them all just my oppinion. As far as this board playing favorites, I'm not here to get into a fight but trust me this is a very feminist board. If you say one negative thing about a female vocalist or one positive thing about what they consider bro or pop or r and b or whatever else they want to label it then your sarounded and hunted down. Again I don't care it has never stopped me from expressing my oppinion. An oppinion where I admired that while I like the song I don't like Eli young bands envolvment that I feel really added nothing to it. The only think wrong with this board is trolls like you who make stupid comments like this. I've had several FRIENDLY conversations with people whose musical tastes don't reflect mine at all. Pulse is a music board where everyone is allowed to express their opinions - good or bad. I understand your opinion might feel like it's in the minority most of the time, but no one is saying what you can and can't like. Heck, even my opinion can sometimes be the unpopular opinion. I wish more people here liked Americana, but unfortunately we're a small group. Know what I did? I didn't quote someone saying they can't like Sam Hunt or FGL or Luke Bryan because they aren't country, I made a thread promoting artists like the ones I like. I didn't act like a victim. As .indulgecountry pointed out, you seem to play victim whenever someone doesn't like something you like, and then the threads get derailed through meaningless conversation. Saying that Pulse only loves females and hates bros? Please. We're a diverse group of people if you REALLY look at us. You're only "sarounded" and hunted down because YOU come after people whose opinions you don't like. As for this particular song, I don't hate it because I think Andy Grammar is the devil who's destroying country music. He's far from a problem, but he's certainly nowhere close to being the solution. Mainstream country radio ratings are in the toilet right now, the genres suffering an identity crsis, I mean the last thing the genre needs right now is a remixed pop song, not with the shape it's in. It's not my intent to disrupt or derail any forums, but when the minute you express any views against the norm its net with negative comments about how blind you are and you must be hard at hearing if you like this yea that's not a want and inviting environment but again that's all I'll say on it as I don't want to disrup the forum any further.
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trebor
4x Platinum Member
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Post by trebor on Oct 2, 2015 10:42:28 GMT -5
#MESS! Be nice to each other... bboat11 Thanks for setting the arguments straight and your time to jot down such a good post (I couldn't ;) ). samsager3 I sincerely apologize that I didn't elaborate my post to the fullest detail. Usually, my points get understood and I'm too lazy to write lengthy sentences, anyway. Don't withdraw from the forum over this; it's really not worth it. If you happen to be in the minority position you always will be met with ideas and opinions that do not correspond with yours. It's what a debate is. Two of my favorite artists are the two most criticized on the forum. I don't get all upset each time and try to fight a forlorn war; I'll state what I truly feel and try not to get stuck into details that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of the discussion; and that's about it. Musical taste is not white or black, it's all shades of grey and everybody is partly right or wrong; and a consensus is always found even if it's to agree to disagree. So, please, don't leave! I'm pretty certain that our fellow posters will refrain from using terms like "troll", etc. in the future and desist from personal attacks. #MODSjhomes87 Can this thread be temporarily locked (24 hours)?
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samsager3
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Post by samsager3 on Oct 2, 2015 12:53:40 GMT -5
#MESS! Be nice to each other... bboat11 Thanks for setting the arguments straight and your time to jot down such a good post (I couldn't ;) ). samsager3 I sincerely apologize that I didn't elaborate my post to the fullest detail. Usually, my points get understood and I'm too lazy to write lengthy sentences, anyway. Don't withdraw from the forum over this; it's really not worth it. If you happen to be in the minority position you always will be met with ideas and opinions that do not correspond with yours. It's what a debate is. Two of my favorite artists are the two most criticized on the forum. I don't get all upset each time and try to fight a forlorn war; I'll state what I truly feel and try not to get stuck into details that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of the discussion; and that's about it. Musical taste is not white or black, it's all shades of grey and everybody is partly right or wrong; and a consensus is always found even if it's to agree to disagree. So, please, don't leave! I'm pretty certain that our fellow posters will refrain from using terms like "troll", etc. in the future and desist from personal attacks. #MODSjhomes87 Can this thread be temporarily locked (24 hours)? In that case I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on your post I should have just asked for more clarification I guess and moved on. And yes I'm not leaving the forum over anything I enjoy the discussions. I guess I need to learn to tone t down a bit and I'm sorry for that.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 2, 2015 23:59:55 GMT -5
Okay, folks. I'm not going to lock the thread but for what it's worth, the staff was alerted to the issues here via the report system, so we will be going through the usual behind-the-scenes process there as far as any warnings are concerned. In the meantime, it's a shame that we seem to have lost one of our good faith posters to irritation. I will say, again, that courtesy goes beyond not calling each other out on the board (which is off-topic and inappropriate per our rules). Courtesy is also not making discussion unnecessarily antagonistic by confusing disagreement with "attack." Courtesy is avoiding generalizations about fellow posters who have different views than you. Courtesy is avoiding inflammatory and overly dramatic rhetoric in the course of debate, so as to minimize the chances of debates becoming heated. Courtesy is also making an effort to use proper capitalization, spelling, punctuation and grammar in posts (especially after feedback requesting that one do so), so that one's posts don't take so much effort to decipher.* There has been a shortage of that courtesy here from a few posters here lately, and we've had a few derailments as a result. The staff is going to deal with the offenders as best we can, but in the meantime, I'm going to suggest that if there are posters who strike you as consistently un-constructive, you ignore them (whether by using the "Ignore User" feature or just by skipping their posts) and instead reward only those posts that strike you as interesting and constructive with your attention and replies. If there is a point that you feel needs addressing but comes only from a poster you think drags down discussion, try to address the point generally rather than quoting and replying. I know that this is not a perfect or fair solution, because it puts the onus of dealing with possible problem posters on good posters, but it's part of what is needed to keep the level of conversation here where we want it to be. Another part is the staff doing what we're supposed to do to facilitate a better discussion environment, and we will work on that, as well. * None of this is aimed at any of our posters for whom English is not the first language, because those posters do a generally tremendous job of communicating their thoughts here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 3:55:54 GMT -5
If country instrumentation is not enough for a song to be acceptable for today's country radio, then what is? I don't get how this is any less country than songs like "John Cougar, John Deere, John 3:16," "Lose My Mind," or "Smoke Break." Sure people have argued that those songs too aren't "country" enough, and that's an acceptable argument to have, but I don't get why this song is in a higher "classification" of totally not deserving to get played on country radio, than those other songs. Also, keep in mind that country radio's ratings were at an all-time high over the summer of 2014, when there was tons of pop-leaning stuff getting played. So I wouldn't agree that a remixed pop song is a bad thing for country radio's ratings. I personally think the signs are pretty clear that ever since we started seeing artists trying to chase more traditional and counter-bro trends, ratings have started to go down. As sabre14 noted, this particular song had already burnt with pop listeners by the time it was sent to country radio, so in this particular case I feel that this single may not have been the best for country radio's ratings. This is because its potential to draw in pop listeners isn't as high due to those pop listeners already having had their fill of HIG on pop radio. However, it would certainly be exciting to get some more pop songs remixed on country radio in the future, and I think some of these would be great for country radio's ratings.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2015 7:01:52 GMT -5
If country instrumentation is not enough for a song to be acceptable for today's country radio, then what is? I don't get how this is any less country than songs like "John Cougar, John Deere, John 3:16," "Lose My Mind," or "Smoke Break." Sure people have argued that those songs too aren't "country" enough, and that's an acceptable argument to have, but I don't get why this song is in a higher "classification" of totally not deserving to get played on country radio, than those other songs. Also, keep in mind that country radio's ratings were at an all-time high over the summer of 2014, when there was tons of pop-leaning stuff getting played. So I wouldn't agree that a remixed pop song is a bad thing for country radio's ratings. I personally think the signs are pretty clear that ever since we started seeing artists trying to chase more traditional and counter-bro trends, ratings have started to go down. As sabre14 noted, this particular song had already burnt with pop listeners by the time it was sent to country radio, so in this particular case I feel that this single may not have been the best for country radio's ratings. This is because its potential to draw in pop listeners isn't as high due to those pop listeners already having had their fill of HIG on pop radio. However, it would certainly be exciting to get some more pop songs remixed on country radio in the future, and I think some of these would be great for country radio's ratings. Well then I'm not hearing the country instrumentation in this song like I think there's a mandolin but it's so buried in the background due to the loud pop production same problem I have with Live Forever and the buried banjo in Friend Zone. Also how does a remix of a pop song represent country music? In what way does that represent country music? Here let's try a little experiment let's put songs like Honey I'm Good the country remix songs like that Live Forever and Friend Zone let's put them back 5 years ago to 2010. Now the songs that were popular there like As She's Walking Away, If I Die Young, Little White Church, even the more pop leaning songs like Mine, Turn On The Radio still were primarily rooted in country nowadays you have a remix song with a token mandolin thrown in that's it, an attempt at a crossover with bombastic production and many fans disappointed. Then you have a song that sounds like just terribleness. If you like the song good for you but I'm not calling it country because the last thing country music needs is a pop star in it we already have Sam Hunt. Songs that should represent country music are songs like Burning House, Smoke Break, Fly, I Got The Boy, Whiskey On My Breath (so chilling) The Driver, Riser , and Save It For A Rainy Day all keep the roots of the genre but if you like Honey I'm Good, Friend Zone, and Live Forever more power to you.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 4, 2015 17:15:14 GMT -5
Also, keep in mind that country radio's ratings were at an all-time high over the summer of 2014, when there was tons of pop-leaning stuff getting played. So I wouldn't agree that a remixed pop song is a bad thing for country radio's ratings. I personally think the signs are pretty clear that ever since we started seeing artists trying to chase more traditional and counter-bro trends, ratings have started to go down. ... However, it would certainly be exciting to get some more pop songs remixed on country radio in the future, and I think some of these would be great for country radio's ratings. While this is a well-constructed argument, I do think that it's important to point out that these "all-time high" ratings for country radio were exclusively in the context of the current PPM (Portable People Meter)-based methodology, which hasn't been around in the country world for all that long (the methodology debuted in 2007, but as of November 2011, only sixty country stations had a full year of PPM data available). The PPM-based methodology is meant to succeed the diary-based methodology, but still operates in only the top forty-eight markets. Why does this matter? Because the switch from diary-based measurement to PPM-based measurements in the top markets made country's ratings go down. To verify this point, here is a quote from the LA Times on that point:And to give a sense for how much audience share declined for country radio in the switch, here is a quote from Arbitron's 2012 Radio Today report (I don't have a direct link available):Country's August 2015 PPM share was an 8.1, having hit an 8.4 share in August 2014. These levels are well below the ratings attributed to country radio when ratings were measured by the diary method only. So we can't look at country radio's ratings over the past few years and declare them an all-time anything, because it would be an apples to oranges comparison that actually suggests that country radio ratings are still well below what they were in 2010 (when the crossover stylings of Lady Antebellum, Carrie, Taylor, etc. were driving outside interest while country radio continued to attend to its full range of listeners with a variety of country sounds). Basically, far from the "record" high ratings that some country radio programmers have been braying about to defend the bro-country overload of 2012-2014, the ratings of summer 2014 were the highest they had been in just the past few years. That's not insignificant, but really, that only covers the rise, peak and ebb of a music cycle, in this case, the one driven by bro country. The current challenge for the country format is to develop a new music cycle that draws in new listeners or brings back erstwhile listeners, whether that's by drawing back in fans of actual country music or something else. This fall (coming a year after country radio ratings begin to decline, suggesting that bro country was played out) will be a test of whether the R&B/funk trend is a viable driver and to what extent country programmers are seeking to reconnect with fans of country music.
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on Oct 6, 2015 15:40:46 GMT -5
Lol, just as this song is finished, KKBQ in Houston decides to add it this week.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 22:36:46 GMT -5
Great points as always 43dudleyvillas. My only slight discrepancy would be that I don't know if bro-country losing its popularity was what caused the decline of country radio's ratings. Rather, I had thought the ratings drop was caused by a decrease in the bro-country music being released. It was around late summer/early fall when we had songs like "Girl in a Country Song," "Neon Light," "What We Ain't Got," "A Guy Walks into a Bar," "People Loving People," "Gentle on My Mind," and others that had a more traditional feel, being released, and Gary Overton made his comments about bro-country having reached its "saturation point." So I do wonder if the ratings started to go down because less pop-sounding music was being released, and it was misinterpreted as a failure on bro-country's part.
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Post by 43dudleyvillas on Oct 7, 2015 0:00:24 GMT -5
My only slight discrepancy would be that I don't know if bro-country losing its popularity was what caused the decline of country radio's ratings. Rather, I had thought the ratings drop was caused by a decrease in the bro-country music being released. It was around late summer/early fall when we had songs like "Girl in a Country Song," "Neon Light," "What We Ain't Got," "A Guy Walks into a Bar," "People Loving People," "Gentle on My Mind," and others that had a more traditional feel, being released, and Gary Overton made his comments about bro-country having reached its "saturation point." So I do wonder if the ratings started to go down because less pop-sounding music was being released, and it was misinterpreted as a failure on bro-country's part. That's pretty unlikely. For one thing, country radio's ratings first started their tick down in August 2014 (bucking the recent pattern of summer growth), when the songs that you listed were either not yet released or too young on the charts to have had a real impact on ratings. Second, ratings are generally a lagging indicator. In this All Access column from earlier this year, R.J. Curtis quoted a PD as saying:So the ratings decline of the second half of last year was a response to what was going on at radio for the first half of 2014 and perhaps the tail end of 2013. As a major market PD pointed out to Curtis in January,This PD behind this quote, who pinned the down cycle to the beginning of 2014 if not before, subsequently referenced bro country and copycat syndrome that had made the music stale. So while I do think that the bros got self-conscious after the formulaic nature of their music was exposed and pilloried in the mainstream media, I don't think that radio and Music Row executives were listening to the critics when they concluded that bro country was played out. Rather, the declarations of the saturation point having been reached came from testing, audience feedback and from country radio ratings.
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maine
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Post by maine on Oct 18, 2015 12:37:21 GMT -5
Music video:
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