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Post by musicsweep on Nov 13, 2003 21:03:29 GMT -5
There's been alot of bitching about what transpires on the boards, particularly with the moderators. The moderators' reply to this is generally "It's just a board, get a life" type attitude. While I can understand the thought process behind such an attitude (I used the get a life arguement at the old boards), I think the overall problem is perception.
Some of the moderators are perceived to be powerhungry, or irresponsible. It is my opinion that this comes from a few different practices.
#1. Warnings...while warnings are good (I appreciate being let know that I am crossing the line, as opposed to the outright banning without notice), it is worthy to note that warnings are being sent out at the drop of a hat. One person says "so and so said something like thus and so, I think that's offensive". The moderator who get's that message generally (manytimes without referrencing the post in question) shoots out a warning. I believe that is the case in my warning due to the time the statement was on the boards without reprocussion, and the fact that the moderator in question didn't quote me, but rather said "you said something like this in the sucha nd such topics." Warnings are good, but referrence whatever it was that was pointed out, and don't shoot out warnings for marginal things just because someone said they found it offensive. Make a judgement call. When placed into context with the rest of my post, I don't believe the overall message was to make anyone feel inferior or unwlecome. Furthermore, I made far stronger statements at RnR, and never received any comment from a moderator there.
#2. Banning...I understand the concept, but if someone is too dangerous to this board now, how will that change over a week. We seem to be into the one week banishment business around here and it makes no sense to me. At the RnR boards, banishments were always the last resort, but once done, they were permanent. How much anti-American crap did we hear from Joffre before he was banned? Alot! Why was he banned? For making a horrendous comment about the Jewish people. Samba was banned for his abusive rhetoric and relentless pursuit of stifling any conversation. Here, people get banned for being annoying to the moderators, but only for a week.
#3. Attitude. Being a moderator means getting griped about. Deal with it. Referreees at a football game are seldom praised, rather they are more than likely booed, and in the NFL, get beer bottles thrown at them. When you are a Mod., Understand that. Quit getting all touchy. We have had several topics in the forum closed because the Mods got tired of the bitching. Listen, Bitching is what message boards are all about.
#4. Partiality. If you are going to get involved in a debate, don't send a ban warning to someone who is argueing against your viewpoint. If you believe the remark was out of line, consult another Mod who hasn't been invloved in the debate to make the call. Let them send the warning. Again, this is a perception issue. I am not accusing anyone of trying to silence the opposition.
#5. Quit closing every topic in this forum. My understanding is that this room was created so members could air out there complaints, without cluttering up the Lounge. This is also where we say "I'm Back" or "I'm leaving for a while." I like the format, but if you shut down every topic, "because that shouldn't be discussed!", then why have the members concerns forums? Eliminate it and save the web space.
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Post by musicsweep on Nov 13, 2003 21:06:17 GMT -5
Oh, and for the board members, don't be a pain in the ass! Don't IM a mod every 2 minutes because you didn't like something, or to protest a warning, or report an "offensive post". The proper channel is through the PM function. Don't make hundreds of useless posts, and don't post the same crap over and over. There.
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Post by musicsweep on Nov 13, 2003 21:16:55 GMT -5
For the record, that last statement is not directed at everyone, just a few users who know who they are!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2003 21:22:53 GMT -5
I'm not even going to comment but #4 is ridiculous. When do we close topics and ban members because they disagree with our opinion?
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Matt4319
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Post by Matt4319 on Nov 13, 2003 21:26:31 GMT -5
#1. Warnings...while warnings are good (I appreciate being let know that I am crossing the line, as opposed to the outright banning without notice), it is worthy to note that warnings are being sent out at the drop of a hat. One person says "so and so said something like thus and so, I think that's offensive". The moderator who get's that message generally (manytimes without referrencing the post in question) shoots out a warning. I believe that is the case in my warning due to the time the statement was on the boards without reprocussion, and the fact that the moderator in question didn't quote me, but rather said "you said something like this in the sucha nd such topics." Warnings are good, but referrence whatever it was that was pointed out, and don't shoot out warnings for marginal things just because someone said they found it offensive. Make a judgement call. When placed into context with the rest of my post, I don't believe the overall message was to make anyone feel inferior or unwlecome. Furthermore, I made far stronger statements at RnR, and never received any comment from a moderator there. First of all, how do you know who we are warning? It seems to me that you're solely going by the warning you were given. And by what the moderator that gave you the warning told me, he specifically pointed out the statement(s) you made that were potentially offensive. And I can't speak for the moderators at R&R, but it's possible that they didn't read whatever you might have said, since (1) they weren't on the boards nearly as much as us, and (2) there were more posts. #2. Banning...I understand the concept, but if someone is too dangerous to this board now, how will that change over a week. We seem to be into the one week banishment business around here and it makes no sense to me. At the RnR boards, banishments were always the last resort, but once done, they were permanent. How much anti-American crap did we hear from Joffre before he was banned? Alot! Why was he banned? For making a horrendous comment about the Jewish people. Samba was banned for his abusive rhetoric and relentless pursuit of stifling any conversation. Here, people get banned for being annoying to the moderators, but only for a week. I don't understand what your complaint is here. Do you think we should ban people permanently instead of just temporarily? #3. Attitude. Being a moderator means getting griped about. Deal with it. Referreees at a football game are seldom praised, rather they are more than likely booed, and in the NFL, get beer bottles thrown at them. When you are a Mod., Understand that. Quit getting all touchy. We have had several topics in the forum closed because the Mods got tired of the bitching. Listen, Bitching is what message boards are all about. No... you listen. This message board was made -- BY ME -- to discuss music and charts. And just because we are in a position of authority means we deserve to get bitched at constantly? That's ridiculous! We can't make every poster happy 100% of the time. That's impossible. I didn't even have to make this message board. We could still all be posting on Today's Music Forum or something. Not that it's a bad forum per se, but it's pretty clear that most of you like this message board better, or else TMF would have 250 members. #4. Partiality. If you are going to get involved in a debate, don't send a ban warning to someone who is argueing against your viewpoint. If you believe the remark was out of line, consult another Mod who hasn't been invloved in the debate to make the call. Let them send the warning. Again, this is a perception issue. I am not accusing anyone of trying to silence the opposition. Again, you are only going off your own warning. We don't warn people because we disagree with their opinion. #5. Quit closing every topic in this forum. My understanding is that this room was created so members could air out there complaints, without cluttering up the Lounge. This is also where we say "I'm Back" or "I'm leaving for a while." I like the format, but if you shut down every topic, "because that shouldn't be discussed!", then why have the members concerns forums? Eliminate it and save the web space. When something is discussed over and over and they still complain and complain, even though we have explained ourselves profusely, it gets a bit mindnumbing. This "Announcements and Member Concerns" forum is just a no-win situation, I guess. If we have the forum, people will complain their heads off. If I didn't have it, the same amount of complaining would go on, just through PM and IM, which would probably be much worse.
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Post by musicsweep on Nov 13, 2003 21:26:33 GMT -5
Rebirth, If you will read my post, you will see that I did not accuse you of anything, I just said that participating in a debate, then warning someone on the opposite side of the issue is bad for perception.
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WhySoSerious?
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Post by WhySoSerious? on Nov 13, 2003 21:31:22 GMT -5
Bitching is what message boards are all about? How disappointing and disturbing.
That's not what they're about for me. And thankfully that's not what this one is intended or will be used for.
Strangely no one ever bitched even a fraction as much at the entire life of the R&R board as they have since this one opened. People respected the mods decisions at R&R regardless of whether they agreed. Here no one respects the mods at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2003 21:32:15 GMT -5
Everything Matt said is absolutely correct.
People have to stop making assumptions about warnings since they are done through PM. How do you know who has been warned or why? People seem to think that their warning was the way that all warnings are done.
...and secondly, #3 is ridiculous. I COMPLETELY agree with everything Matt said. Some people are just complaining because they have the right to. There have been people here who have complained the same points over and over and over and over and over again even after we explain them.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 13, 2003 21:32:28 GMT -5
I got a warning last week because I made a joke about the "cleaning lady" being Jersey Boy's mom. It was a joke and he had to have known it because he knows me and even if it were someone else, I still would have made the joke so it wans't personal. However, we did have a long discussion (not long but, you know) after that and I'm not sure if that warning still counts. I personally don't agree with it if it does but whatever.
I agree with most of the stuff in musicsweep's post except I haven't seen #4 happen. The only time it came close was when a topic was directed at one person that wasn't a PM and they didn't close it down yet when I did it, they did. Otherwise, I don't see much of that stuff going on.
I also want to add a theory on the complaints. I think people are complaining because they know that people younger than them or people that were once on the same level as them are moderators so it's probably an issue of jealousy. Had Matt brought someone in that no one except him knew, they would probably be respected because there would be nothing really known about them beforehand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2003 21:33:17 GMT -5
Bitching is what message boards are all about? How disappointing and disturbing. That's not what they're about for me. And thankfully that's not what this one is intended or will be used for. Strangely no one ever bitched even a fraction as much at the entire life of the R&R board as they have since this one opened. People respected the mods decisions at R&R regardless of whether they agreed. Here no one respects the mods at all. EXACTLY! It absolutely has to do with people feeling that since the board is run by regular members, that they should be annoying as possible to us.
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Post by musicsweep on Nov 13, 2003 21:34:05 GMT -5
Look, All I am saying is that the bitching on the boards is due to perception problems. I am merely trying to point out where those perceptions are coming from.
As for my stance on warnings, I am going off mine, but I have seen other comments that are similar to mine posted on the boards.
Matt, these boards are yours, you created them, you can do with them as you wish. As long as there is something relevant to me here, I'll continue to participate. When I lose interest, I'll go away.
I've obviously struck a nerve here, and you are probably tired of the negative reactions posted in this forum...so I'll let it go.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2003 21:34:52 GMT -5
I got a warning last week because I made a joke about the "cleaning lady" being Jersey Boy's mom. It was a joke and he had to have known it because he knows me and even if it were someone else, I still would have made the joke so it wans't personal. However, we did have a long discussion (not long but, you know) after that and I'm not sure if that warning still counts. I personally don't agree with it if it does but whatever.
When you are constantly showing negativity towards a person, jokes don't come off as jokes.
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Matt4319
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Post by Matt4319 on Nov 13, 2003 21:38:30 GMT -5
EXACTLY! It absolutely has to do with people feeling that since the board is run by regular members, that they should be annoying as possible to us. Another good point. Maybe you guys didn't realize what you were doing when you voted for moderators. You were selecting people to GOVERN the message board. At that point, they have more power than the rest of you. Why else was there such a controversy over who got picked? It's because the job of moderator is an important position. And when people are constantly trying to bring down the moderators, it creates disorder and chaos that can easily be rectified by realizing that the moderators have a job to do, and you have to let them do it.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 13, 2003 21:40:53 GMT -5
When you are constantly showing negativity towards a person, jokes don't come off as jokes. So I got a warning because of that? Would I have still gotten a warning if it were... oh, let's say, Sunny that talked about a cleaning lady? Probably not. Jersey Boy knows how I am and if he didn't before, he should now. I joke around in my posts probably a lot. It's just the way I am. I like to make light out of situations for a slight laugh or giggle. I wasn't showing much negativity towards Adam. It was probably more or less his decisions and situations and stuff. I've gotten over that now and hope he has too. I do understand the situations that you guys are in more now than when Rob was banned and I can emphasis a bit more. I do, however think that you all are still giving out warnings like it's Halloween. Maybe it's justified, I don't know because I don't know the reasons. All I know is that the warning I got wasn't a deserved one. And if it was, I want John to get a warning the second he starts up a "Yo Mama" topic.
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Nov 13, 2003 21:47:19 GMT -5
So I got a warning because of that? Would I have still gotten a warning if it were... oh, let's say, Sunny that talked about a cleaning lady? Probably not. Jersey Boy knows how I am and if he didn't before, he should now. I joke around in my posts probably a lot. It's just the way I am. I like to make light out of situations for a slight laugh or giggle. I wasn't showing much negativity towards Adam. It was probably more or less his decisions and situations and stuff. I've gotten over that now and hope he has too. I do understand the situations that you guys are in more now than when Rob was banned and I can emphasis a bit more. I do, however think that you all are still giving out warnings like it's Halloween. Maybe it's justified, I don't know because I don't know the reasons. All I know is that the warning I got wasn't a deserved one. And if it was, I want John to get a warning the second he starts up a "Yo Mama" topic. Mike, you say you've gotten over stuff, yet this is the second post today personally directed at me. FIrst of all, we don't give out warnings "like it's Halloween." Very few members have received warnings. It just seems to me that those members feel the need to say so on the boards, to make themselves look innocent and whatnot. Your warning was not due to that one comment, although it was an inapprpriate one. It was one of a plural amount of posts directed at me within an hour in a negative way... so obviously it would not be a joke. I was also not the only moderator who found it offensive. But this is the type of thing to be discussed in PM, which I thought we already did the other night. I think the problem here lies in the fact that we let too much anatagonzing/complaining/arguing, etc go on without doing anything about it. Then, if ever we do have to send a warning, people feel the need to challenge it since they are already used to getting away with whatever they want.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2003 21:51:54 GMT -5
Yeah. The only reason people think we warn constantly is because the few people we've warned in the past three months have expressed it in topic after topic. I've only warned one person in the past three months.
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 13, 2003 21:55:31 GMT -5
Mike, you say you've gotten over stuff, yet this is the second post today personally directed at me. FIrst of all, we don't give out warnings "like it's Halloween." Very few members have received warnings. It just seems to me that those members feel the need to say so on the boards, to make themselves look innocent and whatnot. Your warning was not due to that one comment, although it was an inapprpriate one. It was one of a plural amount of posts directed at me within an hour in a negative way... so obviously it would not be a joke. I was also not the only moderator who found it offensive. But this is the type of thing to be discussed in PM, which I thought we already did the other night. So my warning was really about the arguing of Rob's banning? Now I'm even more confused. I should probably read over the PMs again, I suppose.
But just for the record, the "joke" wasn't personal toward you. It was just the perfect setting for it! You set it up! [] It wasn't personal in the least! That's one thing I want you to know!
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 13, 2003 21:57:49 GMT -5
We've been here for three months?! Wow! Hard to believe it's been that long already!
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Matt4319
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Post by Matt4319 on Nov 13, 2003 21:59:41 GMT -5
Actually it's been more like two months.
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Rob64
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Every game
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Post by Rob64 on Nov 13, 2003 22:32:11 GMT -5
I deleted my post because it caused more harm than good
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Post by Devil Marlena Nylund on Nov 13, 2003 22:51:57 GMT -5
I decided to keep mine because the option or decision never came up to delete them due to harm. So they're still there. :)
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Chromeozone
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Post by Chromeozone on Nov 13, 2003 23:05:11 GMT -5
I just have a quick ?
I read in that long topic about Rob's being banned that I had a post edited for using a homophobic word.
Um, could I have an explanation please? Cuz I don't have the slighest idea what you people are referring to.
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Zander
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Post by Zander on Nov 14, 2003 9:43:58 GMT -5
I just think it's hilarious that people take an online message board so seriously...
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Post by thisbeautifulmess on Nov 14, 2003 11:25:40 GMT -5
I just think it's hilarious that people take an online message board so seriously... And that's pretty much hitting the nail right on the head. But at the same time, I think there is a perception problem with moderators. And I can clearly see some biasedness from moderators towards certain members. And there is a certain authoritative feel that I can't explain but seems to be going over the top. One thing I wanted to point out is how often did the moderators at r&r actually post- not very often! Here, the moderators are probably among the highest posters. I'm not AT ALL saying that's bad, but I'm just pointing out that the post volume will make the moderators feel more "in your face" than at the other board. But people here just have to accept that that's the way it's gonna be. I still say if the mods can't handle the criticism, they need to close this forum instead of unfairly placing the blame on members who post here. I've I have a suggest or complain, you bet I'm gonna post it here! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Another suggestion for mods- when the complaints threads start, I would suggest not replying so much. This topic has more posts from mods than members- name one thread on the r&r board that EVER had this many posts going back and forth between mods. So I suggest just let people VOICE their complaints here, but not get into arguments with them regarding their opinion. Just let the members have the "last say"- you'll find that you won't be spending as much time posting responses to complaints in this forum because there won't be as many member posts!
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Nov 14, 2003 11:28:10 GMT -5
One thing I wanted to point out is how often did the moderators at r&r actually post- not very often! Here, the moderators are probably among the highest posters. I'm not AT ALL saying that's bad, but I'm just pointing out that the post volume will make the moderators feel more "in your face" than at the other board. But people here just have to accept that that's the way it's gonna be. Alright stop right there. How dare you tell us not to post. You have no right to do that. And to be blunt, you don't have to like the fact that we post. You don't have to like us.
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Edf85
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Post by Edf85 on Nov 14, 2003 11:30:36 GMT -5
I just think it's hilarious that people take an online message board so seriously... :)
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Post by BFMR on Nov 14, 2003 11:44:30 GMT -5
funny thing... i have nothing to say in this topic, but i am laughing at the posts (on both sides of the argument, not just one)
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jimmy74747
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Post by jimmy74747 on Nov 14, 2003 11:52:50 GMT -5
Everyone (or I should say some of you): This is a message board, a place where we all come to discuss music, politics/sports/other issues in the lounge, or just kill some time. So what if a post gets deleted, or a topic gets locked, or you get warned. There should be greater concerns in your life than that.
Also, you cannot compare R&R moderators to the people here. Ron & company were paid to moderate the R&R board. It was part of their job. They probably didn't want to be there for the most part, and that is why they didn't post. Matt, Adam and the others are doing this because they WANT to. They are here as music fans first, moderators second, and have the right to post. The fact that they are still doing this with all these PM's they appear to be getting shows how much they want this board to succeed, and they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Remember, this board can be shut down by Matt at any second if the complaints become one too many.
Just my two cents.
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allow that
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Post by allow that on Nov 14, 2003 11:55:58 GMT -5
Everyone (or I should say some of you): This is a message board, a place where we all come to discuss music, politics/sports/other issues in the lounge, or just kill some time. So what if a post gets deleted, or a topic gets locked, or you get warned. There should be greater concerns in your life than that. Also, you cannot compare R&R moderators to the people here. Ron & company were paid to moderate the R&R board. It was part of their job. They probably didn't want to be there for the most part, and that is why they didn't post. Matt, Adam and the others are doing this because they WANT to. They are here as music fans first, moderators second, and have the right to post. The fact that they are still doing this with all these PM's they appear to be getting shows how much they want this board to succeed, and they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Remember, this board can be shut down by Matt at any second if the complaints become one too many. Just my two cents. Now I think THIS post is the one that "sums it all up." Jimmy said it better than any of us so far, so I'd advise some of you to really pay attention to all the points in his post.
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mst3k
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Post by mst3k on Nov 14, 2003 12:07:43 GMT -5
Alright stop right there. How dare you tell us not to post. You have no right to do that. And to be blunt, you don't have to like the fact that we post. You don't have to like us. Whoa... go back and re-read thisbeautifulmess's post. He never said that the mods shouldn't be posting so much. He just said that compared to the old R&R boards, some posters (a small percentage, I think) might have trouble adapting to the mods being on the boards so much. He also said these people need to accept that's the way it's going to be, and I agree. :)
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