jebsib
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Post by jebsib on May 5, 2009 12:39:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I know those songs would have charted - but my question was would they have gone to #1 without sales? You are certainly right about DS not having the urban support. However .......
I seem to remember Theda or Silvio or one of the Hot 100 managers in 1998 saying that the only airplay-only song that would have had enough points to ever top the Hot 100 (pre 2000, of course) was Celine Dion's "MHWGO" in the two weeks leading up to its commercial release.
We'll never know of course. Fun to speculate....
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 5, 2009 13:06:59 GMT -5
MHWGO peaked at near 120 million audience (BDS), which, supposedly, was the highest amount in the 1991-1998 period. If other formats were part of the Hot 100 Airplay mix, would that would have been enough to top the Hot 100 without sales points? Like DS, MHWGO would not have benefited from the addition of those other formats. It very well may have had enough points to top the Hot 100 *without* the addition of those other formats to the H100 airplay panel.
It is fun to speculate, I'll give ya that. :) We saw how some tracks' airplay positions were affected in the week leading up to the December 1998 revision and then that week- i.e. Madonna's "Power of Good-Bye" was at 26* the week prior, and then 45 the following week (moving up 3 spots from the prior week's test chart). The format additions didn't help Madge at all- she got support from Hot AC, but the audience potential there isn't as high as it is from Urban.
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on May 5, 2009 13:58:56 GMT -5
Yeah - poor Power of Goodbye - one of my favorites of 1998 - I remember being so grateful that it got as high as #11...
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Post by Quixotic Music Lover on May 5, 2009 15:26:08 GMT -5
"Torn" had an airplay audience close to 100 million, and "Iris" was over 100 million. Those kind of numbers would have easily put them into the top 10 most weeks during 1998. "My Heart Will Go On" was around 108 million before it was released as a single for Valentine's Day 1998.
Although it is a moot point now, many of the monster hits of the 1990s never charted on the Hot100, due to the near-sightedness of the record companies. They paid a heavy price though when music lovers turned to P2P downloads in the late 90s and early 21st century. A whole generation of music lovers got out of the habit of buying singles.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 5, 2009 18:09:32 GMT -5
When TPOG was charting, it showed how screwy the Hot 100 was at that time. With all those airplay-only tracks not appearing on the chart, it allowed TPOG- which peaked at 13 in sales and 26 in airplay- to get as high as No. 11. On the first new H100 chart, TPOG ranked No. 30 (dropping from 26 on the prior week's test chart). Of course, more examples came later on, when even fewer hits were released as singles- "Loverboy" peaked at No. 2, despite a No. 50 H100 Airplay peak. And that's because it and "Bootylicious" were pretty much the only big single releases around that time.
jb- most definitely that would have happened if no other formats were part of the Hot 100 mix. But, as we saw, "Iris" did rank No. 9 (and 6 on the prior week's test chart, I believe) when the other formats were added to H100 Airplay, so "Torn" at its peak very well may have as well.
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mst3k
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Post by mst3k on May 8, 2009 19:18:04 GMT -5
I would probably shell out cash for an updated Bubbling Under Singles and Albums book, since mine is the 1998 edition, if he gets around to doing one in the next few years. Little to no chance of a new edition anytime soon... the last edition (updated through 2004, without Albums) went out of print recently, and with Bubbling Under data included in the upcoming Singles book (as well as the upcoming Albums book sometime in 2010), it seems Whitburn is content to leave the separate book retired. One thing I'm really happy about with the new Top Pop Singles will be the return of proper artist credits. The [w/] indicator that they used for the '05 Country and '06 Pop & AC books was horribly inadequate. As far as the books showing actual charts, DVD-ROM appears to be the direction Record Research is headed in. Those are far cheaper to produce and ship than hardcover books, and you get the charts in full color (which will be a definite plus when the 2000's edition comes out).
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 10, 2009 10:16:34 GMT -5
I HATE that re-releases / remixes are now breaking chronology and are being listed right under the originals. I even e-mailed Joel and said it was a big mistake (Chart geeks like chronology) I also miss airplay / sales positions. However, "Iris" and all airplay #1s are no longer listed as contenders for the songs with the most weeks at # 1 (as of the last 2007 edition) : Too many people (like TYLER) complained. Thus "One sweet Day" remains the #1 song of the rock era per Whitburn... I must admit I will miss the peak positions on the Airplay and Sales sub-charts, but after a certain point in time the Sales chart became meaningless. Going through past editions of Billboard on Google books has reminded me of how often the record labels tinkered with singles from 1991 onwards. For example, I had forgotten that "I'll Be There" by Mariah Carey had been deleted as a single after only a few hundred thousand had been sold, same with "Missing" by Everything But The Girl. For as much criticism as some lodge at Mariah for discount singles or whatever, it's never really mentioned that she could have had a lot more weeks at #1. "I'll Be There" was deleted as you said, and so were "Fantasy" and "One Sweet Day." Both "Heartbreaker" and "Thank God I Found You" had limited shipments. Surely some of these songs could have had longer runs at #1 (if nothing else, "Heartbreaker" would have because the week "Smooth" replaced it at #1 Billboard commented on how close of a race for #1 it was). Where are the most current "Billboard Book Of Top 40..." books listed?
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 10, 2009 15:32:33 GMT -5
"One Sweet Day" scanend more than 2 million, though, and it sales never plummeted from week to week, as far as I recall. "I'll Be There," only a limited number of copies were shipped, that is true- and we saw that via it plunging down the sales chart. We didn't see that happen with "Fantasy" and OSD- more of a gradual decline on the sales chart for those two.
Who knows how huge "Iris" would have been on the Hot 100 with a commercial single- I mean, it's still played loads on radio (a heckuva lot more than OSD). One of the "we'll-never-know" scenarios.
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PinkyD
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Post by PinkyD on May 10, 2009 18:38:37 GMT -5
I am surprised a new edition of this is coming out so soon too...what about an update to the R&B/Hip-Hop book or even the Dance Singles book? That dance one is from 2003 and the R&B from 2004...
I am excited about the Bubbling Under addition...all those songs that I would hear only locally are now right there for my eyeballs to recall! :)
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 10, 2009 22:45:40 GMT -5
"One Sweet Day" scanend more than 2 million, though, and it sales never plummeted from week to week, as far as I recall. "I'll Be There," only a limited number of copies were shipped, that is true- and we saw that via it plunging down the sales chart. We didn't see that happen with "Fantasy" and OSD- more of a gradual decline on the sales chart for those two. "Fantasy" fell to #2 the week it fell from #1, so it's at least possible it would have had a 9th week at #1 had the single not been deleted. Billboard even commented on its rapid sales decline at the time. That also would have resulted in a run of 25 consecutive weeks at #1 for her :o "Heartbreaker" would have for sure gotten at least another week at #1 (as I said, Billboard commented on how close the race was that week), and "I'll Be There" probably would have as well. I don't remember the run of "TGIFY" well enough to comment on it. So, she would definitely be tied with or past The Beatles now. If nothing else, those singles would have had more longevity on the Hot 100. "OSD" doesn't fare as well on certain all-time chart formulas because of its lack of longevity, but the deleted single is a large part of that. What does "Iris" getting play now have to do with how it would have done then?
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on May 11, 2009 9:52:43 GMT -5
We saw how big "Iris" was in airplay (longest stay at No. 1 on Hot 100 Airplay before all formats were added)- just mentioning its recurrent play as a sidenote, as an example of a track whose recurrent life is just as huge as its initial- adding something else to the discussion. :) And woah at "Torn"- played 1,122 times in the past week (+102).
Like said, I don't recall "Fantasty" suffering a BIG drop via weekly sales ranks, like we saw with "I'll Be There"- "Fantasy's sales rankings declines were more gradual, from what I remember). IBT more than likely would have had more than 2 weeks at the top if the singles shipments were higher. It's possible a lot of singles would have had lengthier runs at the top- remember Sony supposedly deleted Celine Dion's "Because You Loved Me," which made it wasier for "Always Be My Baby" to get a couple of weeks at No. 1.
Sony definitely was the best (and cared more than any other label) at strategic marketing to maximize chart peaks. Even after Mimi was off the label, we saw the strategy with "Bootlylicious."
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Post by Quixotic Music Lover on May 14, 2009 6:00:39 GMT -5
I think the deleting of physical singles was a common practice by record labels. What was new in the 1990s was the limited production run of many popular singles. "I'll Be There" is one notable example, but there are many others including "My Heart Will Go On", "No Scrubs", "Missing" and "One Week". Going through the old editions of Billboard in Google Books, the HOT100 Spotlights column is a must read. The columnist often points to these underlyiing factors that are so important to a songs' chart performance.
The digital downloads market is not impacted nearly as much by such behaviour. Record labels (so far) have not been deleting a song from ITunes after a certain number of weeks or after a certain number have sold ("American Boy" was a notable exception last year).
As a result songs are sticking around a lot longer on the HOT100.
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jenglisbe
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Post by jenglisbe on May 15, 2009 10:41:05 GMT -5
Like said, I don't recall "Fantasty" suffering a BIG drop via weekly sales ranks, like we saw with "I'll Be There"- "Fantasy's sales rankings declines were more gradual, from what I remember). Like I said, Billboard commented on the sales drops and the deletion of the single. That was in the Hot 100 Spotlight another poster mentioned. That doesn't mean it would have stayed #1 the week "Exhale" debuted, but it's a possibility. It's drops on the Hot 100 were gradual because it's airplay was so huge.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Aug 9, 2009 9:19:24 GMT -5
Did anyone remember to pre-order the book before it went up $10? :) I got my order in- having skipped the last book, it made sense.
This book- in conjunction with Fred Bronson's Hottest Hot 100 Hits are a good one-two combo to have. Hottest Hot 100 Hits ranks songs based on weekly rankings- kinda like what Billboard did for acts and singles in its Hot 100 50th Anniversary edition, except without the pre-BDS-/SoundScan-era weightings). Bronson, though, awards more points for #s 1-4 than Billboard did, I imagine.
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PinkyD
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Post by PinkyD on Aug 9, 2009 13:38:01 GMT -5
All this chatter makes me realize...
I MISS SINGLES!! :(
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Aug 9, 2009 16:12:25 GMT -5
Book's been pushed back to mid September.
I really wish they had waited six months so we could have had a complete "Top Artists of the 00s" alongside the 50s, 60s, 70s 80s, 90s.
As it is (2000 - 2009) it was probably Nelly as top artist... if they had waited one more year to close out the decade, it would have been Beyonce. Given her work with Destiny's Child & popularity throughout the decade, she deserves it more.
By my rough calculations, even with bubbling under points added in, Madonna remains the top female artist of the whole rock era, but Mariah Carey is within a hair. All she needs are a couple more number one songs, or a few songs with longevity. MCs really close.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Aug 9, 2009 16:20:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I saw that it was delayed a bit- these books usually are.
It's too bad he no longer puts the airplay and sales peaks in the book- especially with Digital Songs peaks for recent tracks, would be cool to have that in there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2009 16:37:53 GMT -5
Book's been pushed back to mid September. I really wish they had waited six months so we could have had a complete "Top Artists of the 00s" alongside the 50s, 60s, 70s 80s, 90s. As it is (2000 - 2009) it was probably Nelly as top artist... if they had waited one more year to close out the decade, it would have been Beyonce. Given her work with Destiny's Child & popularity throughout the decade, she deserves it more. By my rough calculations, even with bubbling under points added in, Madonna remains the top female artist of the whole rock era, but Mariah Carey is within a hair. All she needs are a couple more number one songs, or a few songs with longevity. MCs really close. Beyonce & Destiny's Child are two different artists
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Young Money
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IT'S YOUNG MULAH BAYBAHHHHHHHHH!
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Post by Young Money on Aug 9, 2009 16:56:24 GMT -5
I got my pre-order in. Can't wait for this. Sucks for the delay though. Hopefully we will get some more numbers out of it? probably not? lol
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jebsib
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Post by jebsib on Aug 9, 2009 17:06:04 GMT -5
2m, no I got that. Whitburn lumps Wham! & George Michael together & Gloria Estefan & MSM together; I agree. DC & Beyonce? Different situation.
My point was that it feels like Beyonce owned the 2000 whether on her own or fronting Destiny's Child, while Nelly has fallen off considerably in the last three and a half years of the decade.
And HolidayGuy, I too hate the fact that the airplay / sales peaks have been removed. They really told the full tale on many of these songs. Either they found too many numbers too confusing, or the whole early-mid 2000s single sales peaks were so weird & non representative of anything concrete (as we all remember) that they felt the best thing to do was to just not include any.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2009 21:41:05 GMT -5
Got a note this has been shipped
At least for me, scheduled delivery is Sept 8
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Young Money
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IT'S YOUNG MULAH BAYBAHHHHHHHHH!
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Post by Young Money on Sept 2, 2009 21:42:41 GMT -5
Oh cool. Maybe I'll be getting mine soon :)
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Tea-why
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Post by Tea-why on Sept 3, 2009 7:22:24 GMT -5
I'm ordering "Billboard Hot 100 Charts: The Eighties" today :) I have the 90's one, and I'm obsessed with it.
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Sept 3, 2009 9:35:33 GMT -5
Has this been shipped out yet?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 10:34:54 GMT -5
Got a note this has been shipped At least for me, scheduled delivery is Sept 8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2009 10:39:16 GMT -5
Has this been shipped out yet? The e-mail I got a couple days agoThis message was sent to you at the request of RECORD RESEARCH to notify you that the electronic shipment information below has been transmitted to UPS. The physical package(s) may or may not have actually been tendered to UPS for shipment. To verify the actual transit status of your shipment, click on the tracking link below or contact RECORD RESEARCH directly. Important Delivery Information -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scheduled Delivery: 08-September-2009 Shipment Detail -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ship To: 2m US Number of Packages 1 UPS Service: GROUND Weight: 6.0 LBS
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Young Money
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Post by Young Money on Sept 3, 2009 13:48:28 GMT -5
I should check my e-mail and see if I got anything
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Young Money
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Post by Young Money on Sept 3, 2009 13:50:23 GMT -5
Ohhhhh I just checked my e-mail!! Scheduled Delivery: 04-September-2009 Nice
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Post by areyoureadytojump on Sept 3, 2009 14:09:29 GMT -5
Thanks, 2m.
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HolidayGuy
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Post by HolidayGuy on Sept 3, 2009 14:23:43 GMT -5
I ordered mine on July 30, and haven't gotten an e-mail yet regarding shipping. Maybe they're sending out in the order that people placed their orders?
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