Billboard Hot 100: 12/21/2013

[Lockheart]

Dec 10, 2013 12:24:16 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:23:34 GMT -5 Lockheart said:

Rihanna and consistent I wouldn't really put in the same sentence. If you look at her discography, its quite messy. But the thing with her, even if she flops with a few singles, she's able to recover herself fast (most artist wont/dont) and she's pretty smart or her label is for attaching her name to big names when she's in a rut. RR era tanked then LTWYL ushered in the LOUD era. UA was messy with the mishandling of singles and cut relatively short then TM helped regain the lost interest in her.

"Rude Boy" spent six weeks at #1 on the Hot 100 prior to "Love the Way You Lie," though.

Yes, but it wasn't the last single. The era overall was messy. Rockstar flopped as the last single and two prior singles underperformed. My point is post GGGB, she has not been as consistent as you claim bar the LOUD era. That's 3 messy eras - RR, TTT, and UA.

[colson]

For a second there I was confused and I thought I was in the 'Rihanna' thread.

[Push The Button]

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:29:10 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

That's impossible to discuss, though. How can it be proven? How do we know Rihanna is or isn't the reason for "The Monster's" chart performance?

Regardless, it's a hit for him, and a hit for her. She has had many hits since their last collaboration, he has not.

That's the whole point. You're arguing radio's loyalty to Rihanna. If they're so loyal to her, why did her last two singles flop? Maybe it's not actually about loyalty.

I don't think that by saying that radio (and Pop in particular) has latched on to a set of artists and rewards them with airplay is that much of a stretch. Rihanna has singles that don't do well, of course, but does that mean that she's not a favorite to programmers?

Maybe I've misread the situation. Maybe her next album won't receive much airplay.

[popstop]

I think we'd have to be naive to believe that Rihanna's presence on The Monster isn't fueling more interest than if someone else was on it. The single reunites Eminem and Rihanna for the first time after one of the biggest hits of Em's career.

[allow that]

Dec 10, 2013 12:37:47 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

That's the whole point. You're arguing radio's loyalty to Rihanna. If they're so loyal to her, why did her last two singles flop? Maybe it's not actually about loyalty.

I don't think that by saying that radio (and Pop in particular) has latched on to a set of artists and rewards them with airplay is that much of a stretch. Rihanna has singles that don't do well, of course, but does that mean that she's not a favorite to programmers?

Maybe I've misread the situation. Maybe her next album won't receive much airplay.

It's not a stretch at all that pop radio latches on to a few favorites. It's not a stretch that Rihanna is part of that very select group today (token black artist but don't even get me started on THAT )

But this is beside of the original point and follow-up point that you made.

You originally said that radio was never as loyal to Mariah Carey when in fact she still probably has the most impressive streak in the chart's history (only Gaga in '09/'10 and Katy in '10/'11/'12 come close). Mariah's streak lasted much longer than either and was certainly more consistent than Rihanna.

Then you made a follow-up point that suggested "The Monster" is only a hit because of Rihanna, completely ignoring Eminem's market position.

The rest isn't whats being debated.

[Push The Button]

Dec 10, 2013 12:45:41 GMT -5 allow that said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:37:47 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

I don't think that by saying that radio (and Pop in particular) has latched on to a set of artists and rewards them with airplay is that much of a stretch. Rihanna has singles that don't do well, of course, but does that mean that she's not a favorite to programmers?

Maybe I've misread the situation. Maybe her next album won't receive much airplay.

It's not a stretch at all that pop radio latches on to a few favorites. It's not a stretch that Rihanna is part of that very select group today (token black artist but don't even get me started on THAT )

But this is beside of the original point and follow-up point that you made.

You originally said that radio was never as loyal to Mariah Carey when in fact she still probably has the most impressive streak in the chart's history (only Gaga in '09/'10 and Katy in '10/'11/'12 come close). Mariah's streak lasted much longer than either and was certainly more consistent than Rihanna.

Then you made a follow-up point that suggested "The Monster" is only a hit because of Rihanna, completely ignoring Eminem's market position.

The rest isn't whats being debated.

I CLEARLY said that "Berzerk" received substantial radio play on its own. I also never said that it's a hit "only" because of Rihanna - but, clearly, she has not hurt its airplay.

Didn't I say that I conceded the other point? I'm tired of talking about it.

[badrobot]

I'm no Mariah defender but her success in the early 90s was as big or bigger than Rihanna has had.

The thing about Rihanna is that she has all these hits due to the sheer volume of material she is releasing. Mariah had a near 100% track record for massive hits during her first 7 years, but she was releasing not nearly the number of singles. Rihanna has had lots of massive hits but also lots of "misses," but when you're releasing 4-6 singles a year (including all those features), you can afford to have a few miss. In the 90s an artist having a single miss the top ten was practically a sign of their career ending. Today an artist can have a bunch of songs miss the top 40 entirely and not be perceived as having failures as long as there are a few smash hits in the mix.

The radio strategy today is much different than it was 20 years ago. Today the instant feedback of the internet allows labels to throw lots of options out and see what sticks.

[Soulsista]

Billboard Top 10 from 35, 30, 25, and 20 years ago:

12/23/78

01 02 Le Freak - Chic (2nd of 6 weeks at #1)
02 03 Too Much Heaven / Rest Your Love On Me - The Bee Gees
03 01 You Don't Bring Me Flowers - Barbra Streisand & Neil Diamond
04 05 My Life - Billy Joel
05 06 I Love The Night Life (Disco 'Round) - Alicia Bridges
06 04 I Just Wanna Stop - Gino Vannelli
07 08 Sharing The Night Together - Dr. Hook
08 12 Y.M.C.A. - The Village People
09 09 (Our Love) Don't Throw It All Away - Andy Gibb
10 13 Hold The Line - Toto


12/24/83

01 01 Say Say Say - Paul McCartney & Michael Jackson (3rd of 6 weeks at #1)
02 02 Say It Isn't So - Daryl Hall & John Oates
03 05 Union Of The Snake - Duran Duran
04 07 Owner Of a Lonely Heart - Yes
05 03 All Night Long (All Night) - Lionel Richie
06 04 Uptown Girl - Billy Joel
07 06 Love Is a Battlefield - Pat Benatar
08 09 Twist Of Fate - Olivia Newton-John
09 11 Undercover Of The Night - The Rolling Stones
10 18 Break My Stride - Matthew Wilder


12/24/88

01 02 Every Rose Has Its Thorn - Poison (1st of 3 weeks at #1)
02 04 My Prerogative - Bobby Brown
03 01 Look Away - Chicago
04 03 Giving You The Best That I Got - Anita Baker
05 05 Waiting For a Star To Fall - Boy Meets Girl
06 12 Two Hearts - Phil Collins
07 09 Welcome To The Jungle - Guns N' Roses
08 13 In Your Room - The Bangles
09 10 Walk On Water - Eddie Money
10 15 Don't Rush Me - Taylor Dayne


12/18/93

01 01 Again - Janet Jackson (2nd and final week at #1)
02 03 All That She Wants - Ace Of Base
03 04 Hero - Mariah Carey
04 02 I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That) - Meat Loaf
05 05 Shoop - Salt-n-Pepa
06 06 Gangsta Lean - DRS
07 10 All For Love - Bryan Adams, Rod Stewart & Sting
08 08 Breathe Again - Toni Braxton
09 09 Please Forgive Me - Bryan Adams
10 12 Said I Loved You...But I Lied - Michael Bolton

[brady24]

Dec 10, 2013 12:24:16 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:23:34 GMT -5 Lockheart said:

Rihanna and consistent I wouldn't really put in the same sentence. If you look at her discography, its quite messy. But the thing with her, even if she flops with a few singles, she's able to recover herself fast (most artist wont/dont) and she's pretty smart or her label is for attaching her name to big names when she's in a rut. RR era tanked then LTWYL ushered in the LOUD era. UA was messy with the mishandling of singles and cut relatively short then TM helped regain the lost interest in her.

"Rude Boy" spent six weeks at #1 on the Hot 100 prior to "Love the Way You Lie," though.

small correction, Rude Boy spent five weeks at #1 :)

[mluv]

Dec 10, 2013 11:09:55 GMT -5 allow that said:

Dec 10, 2013 10:51:12 GMT -5 Codex said:

Kendrick Lamar's songs are the typical annoying rap that you would hear in GTA, that most pop listeners hate. Compare that to The Monster which is very pop in melody and instrumentation, and features the biggest pop artist of the past 2 years.

I agree that not all of Kendrick's songs are for pop radio, but "Bitch Don't Kill My Vibe" is so poppy that Gaga almost dropped in on it originally. It was a popular catch phrase among the public at large for most of the year. I don't see how it's less poppy than "Thrift Shop" or "White Walls."

Currently, Kid Ink's "Show Me" and Lupe Fiasco's (white-washed with Ed Sheeran) "Old School Lovin'" sound like two pop-friendly rap songs. I wonder where they'll end up...

And specifics aside, Drake's "Hold On We're Going Home" is the only non-whitewashed, authentic Urban song I can think of that went top 10 at Pop radio this year. Surely over the span of twelve months I should be able to think of another...

Lots of PD's complained about Birtney Spears song work it Bitch  because they didn't want to use that word on their radio station. There were several articles on it. If they didn't like it for her they certainly would have shunned it for a rapper that's not as well known so that title alone would have been against Kendrick getting crossover airplay.    Macklemore wrote about innocuous things like thrift shopping  and can't hold us and none of it was really offensive  nor sexist which rap has a bad rap for.

As for the Rihanna topic,  I think radio was excited to play The Monster precisely because it reunited  the two singers that had a huge hit.  I give credit to both Rihanna and Eminem for it.  If Eminem had sung it with another singer  it might have still gotten airplay  but everyone would not have instantly got on board so quickly  as they did with the two of them.  Rihanna is playing a big role in its success so she deserves the credit for getting it to number one.

[mluv]

Dec 10, 2013 13:16:13 GMT -5 mluv said:

Dec 10, 2013 11:09:55 GMT -5 allow that said:

[imbondz]

but The Monster is a catchy fun song. Of course radio is going to play it.



10 18 Break My Stride - Matthew Wilder

lol. totally forgot about this song. such a good '80's song.

[HolidayGuy]

Singles released later in an album's run often don't usually fare as well- of course, there are exceptions (Katy Perry, for one). So I don't think we should point to that to gauge radio's "loyalty' to RiRi.

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:29:10 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

That's impossible to discuss, though. How can it be proven? How do we know Rihanna is or isn't the reason for "The Monster's" chart performance?

Regardless, it's a hit for him, and a hit for her. She has had many hits since their last collaboration, he has not.

That's the whole point. You're arguing radio's loyalty to Rihanna. If they're so loyal to her, why did her last two singles flop? Maybe it's not actually about loyalty.

They're so loyal to her that they brought a song that barely made top100 on iTunes, into the top 15 on pop and rhythmic. There's a limit to how loyal you can be when everyone hates the song. Actually, even Right Now did better than No Love or Berzerk on pop.

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:23 GMT -5 Lockheart said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:24:16 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

"Rude Boy" spent six weeks at #1 on the Hot 100 prior to "Love the Way You Lie," though.

Yes, but it wasn't the last single. The era overall was messy. Rockstar flopped as the last single and two prior singles underperformed. My point is post GGGB, she has not been as consistent as you claim bar the LOUD era. That's 3 messy eras - RR, TTT, and UA.

The Loud era wasn't consistent either. Man Down and CKB flopped. Rihannas later singles usually flop (this is true for almost every artist), but she comes back a couple months later.

[NeRD]

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:00 GMT -5 allow that said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:23:33 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

"Berzerk" hit the top 20 on Pop, so he still has viable playability (lol?) on the chart. But, this will be his first #1 on the format since his last single with Rihanna, so she's obviously giving him the extra push that programmers are looking for.

Now, whether it would have gone to #1 with Sia or anyone else, is a different matter. We'll just never know.

Eminem has a tremendous amount of loyalty from fans and the general public (as seen by how well his album tracks are selling on iTunes). Radio notices and is loyal to Eminem as a result, but not all of his music is accessible. The two singles that Rihanna is featured on also happen to be Eminem's most radio-friendly. Of course Rihanna helps Eminem achieve that, but it's poppy Eminem that's got radio thirsty (Rihanna or not). Other could help him achieve that too.

I think Rihanna offers enough of her own material that radio has no need to be thirsty for new Rihanna features.

It's arguable that the material Rihanna is featured in if often times stronger than her own material

[NeRD]

Dec 10, 2013 14:40:33 GMT -5 Codex said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

That's the whole point. You're arguing radio's loyalty to Rihanna. If they're so loyal to her, why did her last two singles flop? Maybe it's not actually about loyalty.

They're so loyal to her that they brought a song that barely made top100 on iTunes, into the top 15 on pop and rhythmic. There's a limit to how loyal you can be when everyone hates the song. Actually, even Right Now did better than No Love or Berzerk on pop.

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:23 GMT -5 Lockheart said:

Yes, but it wasn't the last single. The era overall was messy. Rockstar flopped as the last single and two prior singles underperformed. My point is post GGGB, she has not been as consistent as you claim bar the LOUD era. That's 3 messy eras - RR, TTT, and UA.

The Loud era wasn't consistent either. Man Down and CKB flopped. Rihannas later singles usually flop (this is true for almost every artist), but she comes back a couple months later.

Man Down didn't flop though, and CKB reached Top 20 on Pop which is technically considered a hit, objectively.

[HolidayGuy]

Love the 1978 and 1983 weeks- the only one I don't recall off-hand how it goes is the Stones song. of course, I know all the 1988 and 1993 tracks, and enjoy some of those, too.

[Caviar]

I always fume when people say "Man Down" was a flop. It went Top 10 on Urban and had massive staying power. I think that's the most authentic song she's ever released.

[jebsib]

Just because a song goes top 10 on a genre chart does not mean its a hit, though. I can reel off dozens of r&b #1 songs from the 70's, 80's and even 90's that had absolutely no crossover appeal, no national cultural impact and zero recurrent airplay.

[Rocky]

Dec 10, 2013 16:30:43 GMT -5 Caviar said:

I always fume when people say "Man Down" was a flop. It went Top 10 on Urban and had massive staying power. I think that's the most authentic song she's ever released.

It was also a decent WW hit and was massive in countries like France.

[Deleted]

Everything is relative. If an artist released one song to pop radio and another to urban radio simultaneously, calling the urban radio hit a flop just because it wasn't a hit outside of urban radio is stupid. The focus of that release was not on mainstream popularity; otherwise, they would have marketed it to the mainstream in the first place instead of sending something else there. Similarly, calling someone like Patti LaBelle who had one big pop hit in her career a flop because of lack of crossover success would make you look downright stupid.

[Caviar]

Dec 10, 2013 16:39:29 GMT -5 jebsib said:

Just because a song goes top 10 on a genre chart does not mean its a hit, though. I can reel off dozens of r&b #1 songs from the 70's, 80's and even 90's that had absolutely no crossover appeal, no national cultural impact and zero recurrent airplay.

So what classifies a song that was only sent to 1 format a hit? By your logic "Love On Top" was a flop as well.

[jebsib]

Well, Love on Top was a Top 20 Hot 100 hit.
But it was no Crazy in Love or Single Ladies, right?

[HolidayGuy]

^LOT peaked that high, though, following the VMAs performance (I think). When it was officially promoted to radio, it got as high as the 70s on the Hot 100.

[jebsib]

Yeah, and what did it get to on Rhythmic, #23 or something? A bit surprising actually.

[Adonis the DemiGod!]

Dec 10, 2013 12:31:16 GMT -5 @jazzysoul47 said:

Dec 10, 2013 12:29:10 GMT -5 Push The Button said:

That's impossible to discuss, though. How can it be proven? How do we know Rihanna is or isn't the reason for "The Monster's" chart performance?

Regardless, it's a hit for him, and a hit for her. She has had many hits since their last collaboration, he has not.

That's the whole point. You're arguing radio's loyalty to Rihanna. If they're so loyal to her, why did her last two singles flop? Maybe it's not actually about loyalty.

People sometimes don't connect with the songs or there just isn't as much interest after the first several singles are released. She had Stay, Pour It Up, and Love Song all on radio at the same time as Diamonds.

[SPRΞΞ]

07 09 Welcome To The Jungle - Guns N' Roses

This video scared me when it came on MTV when I was a kid.

[imbondz]

I thought Love On Top spent 1 week at #10. maybe not tho.

[Linnethia Monique]

Dec 10, 2013 23:02:55 GMT -5 imbondz said:

I thought Love On Top spent 1 week at #10. maybe not tho.

It didn't but it was the Year-End #1 on the Hip-hop/R&B chart for Billboard. It may not have been an overall hit but still a hit nonetheless.

[allow that]

Dec 10, 2013 16:39:29 GMT -5 jebsib said:

Just because a song goes top 10 on a genre chart does not mean its a hit, though. I can reel off dozens of r&b #1 songs from the 70's, 80's and even 90's that had absolutely no crossover appeal, no national cultural impact and zero recurrent airplay.

... so crossover to pop is the only barometer of success??

I guess Miguel's "Adorn" was such a major flop man.