Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 13:37:57 GMT -5
This is why I love me some Miranda. Jennifer better DRAG them, too. God bless the ladies; I'm sick of this "Country listeners want to hear more men" BS. How are women even supposed to be heard (and in turn build a fanbase), if radio refuses to play most of them? Everyone coming out to support the men refuses to touch on the REAL issue, which is that if more women were heard and played on radio, maybe more people would support them.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 13:38:29 GMT -5
Also, Just quoting this here, even though they put it in the "Little Toy Guns" thread (???).
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onebuffalo
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Post by onebuffalo on May 28, 2015 13:40:43 GMT -5
Everyone coming out to support the men refuses to touch on the REAL issue, which is that if more women were heard and played on radio, maybe more people would support them.
Tell that to the female audience out there. They support male artists more than their 'sisters'.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 13:45:06 GMT -5
You KNOW this is going to be getting worked into his & Carrie's CMA monologue this November. Tell that to the female audience out there. They support male artists more than their 'sisters'. That's not true at all. Quoting the article I just linked above from Country Universe... It's not that female listeners don't support their "sisters," as you put it, because clearly, they do. It's that radio is neglecting to play women because of this outdated gender discrimination that dates back to the 60s that they still feel is fully valid today, and they base their data off of skewed results due to what they put on the airwaves. If they played more women, we'd see more "women supporting women," even though, as 43dudleyvillas has already pointed out, there's plenty of current cases of that, including "Girl Crush" and "Little Toy Guns". Because radio is strictly playing men, listeners of all identifiable genders are honing in on male-led songs because that's all that they're hearing anymore. It's almost as if women-led music has become this jarring interference with the norm of Country radio today, which is absolutely heart-wrenching.
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onebuffalo
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Post by onebuffalo on May 28, 2015 13:48:08 GMT -5
Tell that to the female audience out there. They support male artists more than their 'sisters'. That's not true at all. Quoting the article I just linked above from Country Universe... It's not that female listeners don't support their "sisters," as you put it, because clearly, they do. It's that radio is neglecting to play women because of this outdated gender discrimination that dates back to the 60s that they still feel is fully valid today, and they base their data off of skewed results due to what they put on the airwaves. If they played more women, we'd see more "women supporting women," even though, as 43dudleyvillas has already pointed out, there's plenty of current cases of that, including "Girl Crush" and "Little Toy Guns". Because radio is strictly playing men, listeners of all identifiable genders are honing in on male-led songs because that's all that they're hearing anymore. It's almost as if women-led music has become this jarring interference with the norm of Country radio today, which is absolutely heart-wrenching. So, how many males bought those CDs? Reminds me of Michael Jackson's Thriller CD. How many white households have that one? Hmmm...
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on May 28, 2015 14:04:12 GMT -5
I have no clue what the "Thriller" black / white analogy has to do with this conversation. But considering that albums huge popularity with the MTV generation , I wouldn't be surprised if more white people bought that album than black people.
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carriekins
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Post by carriekins on May 28, 2015 14:08:07 GMT -5
I have no clue what the "Thriller" black / white analogy has to do with this conversation. But considering that albums huge popularity with the MTV generation , I wouldn't be surprised if more white people bought that album than black people. It was the first album I bought with my own money. So...yeah.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on May 28, 2015 14:11:14 GMT -5
Also, Just quoting this here, even though they put it in the "Little Toy Guns" thread (???). Kinda boosts the point I made on the previous page. There are fewer women than men, but the women who "make it" are far more successful in many ways.
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onebuffalo
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Post by onebuffalo on May 28, 2015 14:20:56 GMT -5
Several things:
1. As we know, Come On Over is the biggest selling country CD of all time. How many females have it and how many males have it (I have it)?
2. Someone posted that Reba McEntire has six million Facebook friends. How many are women and how many are men? If that's the case, how come Love Somebody opened with just 1% of her Facebook following? How many females have that CD? McEntire could not have sold only to females.
3. Michael Jackson's Thriller CD is the biggest selling CD of all time (a race between that and the Eagles' first greatest hits CD). How many black people have that one versus white people? Jackson could not make the claim of having the most successful CD of all time on having blacks only buying the CD.
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on May 28, 2015 14:46:33 GMT -5
That's not true at all. Quoting the article I just linked above from Country Universe... It's not that female listeners don't support their "sisters," as you put it, because clearly, they do. It's that radio is neglecting to play women because of this outdated gender discrimination that dates back to the 60s that they still feel is fully valid today, and they base their data off of skewed results due to what they put on the airwaves. If they played more women, we'd see more "women supporting women," even though, as 43dudleyvillas has already pointed out, there's plenty of current cases of that, including "Girl Crush" and "Little Toy Guns". Because radio is strictly playing men, listeners of all identifiable genders are honing in on male-led songs because that's all that they're hearing anymore. It's almost as if women-led music has become this jarring interference with the norm of Country radio today, which is absolutely heart-wrenching. So, how many males bought those CDs? Reminds me of Michael Jackson's Thriller CD. How many white households have that one? Hmmm... The issue isn't with who supports country artists, the issue is that female country artists are hardly ever supported BECAUSE they are hardly ever heard. The issue isn't the demographics; fans like who they like both male and female. But if you only ever hear male artists on country radio, and you like country music, you will inadvertently be manipulated into liking mainly male artists; which is the case nowadays. Not saying this is the case for everyone, but radio does have a huge part in shaping people's musical tastes. I mean, in most cases, people buy music they first heard on the radio, so... Anyway, music is subjective, but you can't like what you don't hear. This is where his argument falters. I think he feels that females aren't played because there isn't a demand for females to be heard, but how can he (or anyone) know that? That's just an assumption, but a backwards and baseless one. You can poll audiences and conduct surveys, but they will always be biased and skewed to favor what radio already plays. Casual fans aren't going to protest to hear more female voices, because they're already content with what they do hear. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't be listening... Obviously there are fans who don't like female country singers, as there are fans who don't typically like male artists (like myself). Because of this subjectivity, there is absolutely no base to his statement. Now, if for a certain length of time 100 radio stations participated in a study: 50 stations played male and female songs equally, and the other 50 stations played whatever the female-to-male ratio is today; if they found a trend that the former 50 saw proportionally less ratings than the latter stations which were modeled after today's country radio atmosphere, he'd at least have some base to his comments. But he's literally using his opinion on female artists and the fact that they are played less to conclude that they shouldn't be played because they aren't wanted. Furthermore, how does he explain the female artists that do make it? Quantitatively, sure, they are the tomatoes in that there are less tomatoes than leaves of lettuce in a salad. But often, the women in country music that truly make it are just as big, if not bigger than the top male artists in the genre. I made the point on the previous page that three of the top five country artists of the past 5-10 years are likely to be female (on most people's lists: Carrie, Taylor, and Miranda). And then there's the list provided above of country albums to sell over 5 million copies; pretty much all female. It doesn't matter who's buying them. The point is that there IS a demand for female artists, and when female artists are given the same radio airplay as men, they often dominate. Therefore, the logical conclusion, I think, is that female artists are wanted, and often embraced when they are given equal exposure. However, they are outnumbered because they aren't given the light of day due to radio manipulation and label politics. Edit: I'm sure demographics play a part, but surely ridding country radio of female voices is not a viable conclusion to be drawn from any survey or poll conducted by country radio programmers/executives. Otherwise, Carrie and Miranda would not be the megastars they are.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 15:14:35 GMT -5
Several things: 1. As we know, Come On Over is the biggest selling country CD of all time. How many females have it and how many males have it (I have it)? 2. Someone posted that Reba McEntire has six million Facebook friends. How many are women and how many are men? If that's the case, how come Love Somebody opened with just 1% of her Facebook following? How many females have that CD? McEntire could not have sold only to females. 3. Michael Jackson's Thriller CD is the biggest selling CD of all time (a race between that and the Eagles' first greatest hits CD). How many black people have that one versus white people? Jackson could not make the claim of having the most successful CD of all time on having blacks only buying the CD....surely, you can't be serious. Also, none of these things have much to do with anything that we're talking about...especially your third point. So let's revert back to the topic at hand. Sara Evans liked Martina McBride's FB comments on everything.
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on May 28, 2015 15:32:52 GMT -5
Okay, as much as I love going off topic sometimes for comedic purposes, why in the hell are we discussing Michael Jackson's Thriller album?
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 15:35:00 GMT -5
Okay, as much as I love going off topic sometimes for comedic purposes, why in the hell are we discussing Michael Jackson's Thriller album? Okay good, I'm not the only one thinking that it had absolutely no relevance to this discussion, either. https://instagram.com/p/3Nf1RVOgKl
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 15:47:06 GMT -5
Is there any evidence at all to support the claim that the reason women don't tend to test well is because listeners "aren't used to them" and that listeners would grow to like female songs more if the songs were forced on the listeners by the radio stations? That just seems like a really weak, unfounded idea to me. I really think people are underestimating the intelligence of country radio listeners by putting forth the claim that they are dumb enough to be jarred simply by hearing female voices. It's not like females are some sort of exotic species or something, lol. Similar claims were tossed around when the "Girl Crush" controversy erupted. People were blaming country radio for dumbing down the music they played and as a result making listeners too stupid to understand what the LBT song was about, thus supposedly causing the "dumb" country radio listeners to misunderstand the song and react negatively to a song supporting the "gay agenda," but ultimately the controversy turned out to be mostly fake and it was discovered that very few listeners actually disliked the song for its lyrics. Its poor research scores are likely due to the different, "echo-ey" production, like the current Eric Church single "Like a Wrecking Ball," which also has low research scores.
I just don't know if I agree that listeners would become more receptive to female voices in general just by hearing them more. I'm still not even sure I think country listeners are inherently less receptive to females. I just think females tend to release stuff that doesn't target the demographics that comprise the mainstream of country radio listeners as much as males, which is obviously why country radio listeners tend to like stuff by males more. However, Kelsea Ballerini has had a pretty positive Callout showing for "Love Me Like You Mean It," which is considerably more upbeat, radio-friendly, and pop-sounding than stuff a lot of other females have been releasing lately, and probably more in line with the material males have released to radio, and things have turned out really well for Kelsea on all fronts - sales, research, and airplay.
While I think anyone would agree that it doesn't make sense to set format clocks to discriminate against all females, I don't think country radio has a responsibility to maintain a balanced sex ratio, either. Radio should play whatever music is the most popular, whether that means playing all males, all females, few males, few females, etc. I can understand why a PD or MD wouldn't want to take the risk of playing songs by females that didn't test well based on the unproven possibility that listeners would grow to like the females' songs better over time if they were played more. What I really want is for every single to be evaluated and given spins on an individual, indiscriminate basis. Keith Hill's comments could have been well-intended, but they were dangerous because they put a blanket of negativity around all females, including those who do have songs with strong sales or research.
On another note, does anyone know where the "#SaladGate" originated? Besides being corny to a cringe-worthy extent, I feel this title makes a joke out of a serious situation and distracts from the importance of this discussion. Jokes like the one Brad Paisley tweeted without any serious mention of the issue being discussed could lead to mass misinformation about this controversy. This isn't about the silly analogy Hill used to make his point; it's about the future of a format that is going through a serious identity crisis. This hash tag could lead to a joke being made of the whole issue and could cause the public to not even understand what this is about and why it's important.
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 15:51:38 GMT -5
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on May 28, 2015 16:05:21 GMT -5
On another note, does anyone know where the "#SaladGate" originated? Besides being corny to a cringe-worthy extent, I feel this title makes a joke out of a serious situation and distracts from the importance of this discussion. Jokes like the one Brad Paisley tweeted without any serious mention of the issue being discussed could lead to mass misinformation about this controversy. This isn't about the silly analogy Hill used to make his point; it's about the future of a format that is going through a serious identity crisis. This hash tag could lead to a joke being made of the whole issue and could cause the public to not even understand what this is about and why it's important. Oh . I'd say country radio and this Hill fella have already made quite the joke of the situation. More so than any hashtag could ever hope to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 16:10:22 GMT -5
^Agreed. I don't know why Hill enjoys these food analogies so much, but it'll be a shame if this now erupts into a "comedic" news story and a great opportunity for a serious discussion about females in country music is ruined.
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sbp17
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Post by sbp17 on May 28, 2015 16:28:23 GMT -5
Hill would be best to keep this about the business and not about the quality of music because his already weak argument would be obliterated if we want to compare the quality of music by males that is being played on the radio today with what's not being played by females on radio.
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on May 28, 2015 16:29:57 GMT -5
Is there any evidence at all to support the claim that the reason women don't tend to test well is because listeners "aren't used to them" and that listeners would grow to like female songs more if the songs were forced on the listeners by the radio stations? That just seems like a really weak, unfounded idea to me. I really think people are underestimating the intelligence of country radio listeners by putting forth the claim that they are dumb enough to be jarred simply by hearing female voices. It's not like females are some sort of exotic species or something, lol. Similar claims were tossed around when the "Girl Crush" controversy erupted. People were blaming country radio for dumbing down the music they played and as a result making listeners too stupid to understand what the LBT song was about, thus supposedly causing the "dumb" country radio listeners to misunderstand the song and react negatively to a song supporting the "gay agenda," but ultimately the controversy turned out to be mostly fake and it was discovered that very few listeners actually disliked the song for its lyrics. Its poor research scores are likely due to the different, "echo-ey" production, like the current Eric Church single "Like a Wrecking Ball," which also has low research scores. I just don't know if I agree that listeners would become more receptive to female voices in general just by hearing them more. I'm still not even sure I think country listeners are inherently less receptive to females. I just think females tend to release stuff that doesn't target the demographics that comprise the mainstream of country radio listeners as much as males, which is obviously why country radio listeners tend to like stuff by males more. However, Kelsea Ballerini has had a pretty positive Callout showing for "Love Me Like You Mean It," which is considerably more upbeat, radio-friendly, and pop-sounding than stuff a lot of other females have been releasing lately, and probably more in line with the material males have released to radio, and things have turned out really well for Kelsea on all fronts - sales, research, and airplay. While I think anyone would agree that it doesn't make sense to set format clocks to discriminate against all females, I don't think country radio has a responsibility to maintain a balanced sex ratio, either. Radio should play whatever music is the most popular, whether that means playing all males, all females, few males, few females, etc. I can understand why a PD or MD wouldn't want to take the risk of playing songs by females that didn't test well based on the unproven possibility that listeners would grow to like the females' songs better over time if they were played more. What I really want is for every single to be evaluated and given spins on an individual, indiscriminate basis. Keith Hill's comments could have been well-intended, but they were dangerous because they put a blanket of negativity around all females, including those who do have songs with strong sales or research. On another note, does anyone know where the "#SaladGate" originated? Besides being corny to a cringe-worthy extent, I feel this title makes a joke out of a serious situation and distracts from the importance of this discussion. Jokes like the one Brad Paisley tweeted without any serious mention of the issue being discussed could lead to mass misinformation about this controversy. This isn't about the silly analogy Hill used to make his point; it's about the future of a format that is going through a serious identity crisis. This hash tag could lead to a joke being made of the whole issue and could cause the public to not even understand what this is about and why it's important. The problem is that country radio has made a conscious effort to target listeners who aren't committed to country music as a format. I really believe the landscape of the listener on country radio has changed and that's why radio is pushing on male acts like FGL who help to strengthen that demo fan base. What I fear though is that may destroy or at least damage the genre long term as the genre's goes through an identity crisis. There is still a massive consumer for artists like Kacey Musgraves, Reba McEntire, etc.. They just have given up on country radio as a whole and this genre is blending in with other formats with its ever changing sonic sound. Fans of the music by "women" or really artists like George Strait, Josh Turner, Gary Allan, would eventually have a strong contingent again if radio decided to get back to their targeted demos they had back in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's. It's not like songs like "Sun Daze", "Crash And Burn", "Kick The Dust Up" and "Drink To That All Night" have been a staple of this format's radio for years - it shifted because of a decision by radio to target a different listener. When radio started playing that music, what do you know? A contingent of scan listeners who are in that demo of 18-34 year old males who don't hold any sort of contractual bond to country music as their one and only format, fled to country dials because they were playing the music they enjoy. Less females came on the airwaves and less traditional country sonic elements left the airwaves and now there are less listeners who have positive numbers towards songs that have female lead vocals. I agree with your second paragraph the most as Keith Hill's comments were a unintelligent, blanketed statement that talked down to anyone he directed his message to. In order to swing the pendulum back the other direction, country radio needs to take notice and act as a whole. The problem is that is highly questionable moving forward as we've gone so far down the road that it will be difficult for them to collectively decide to not target the demo that craves the likes of FGL and Thomas Rhett, unless there is a point where the numbers go too far down to ignore. This really is a crucial time for country radio and I fear for what this genre will look like down the road. As far as everyone using "#Saladgate", it came from the numerous controversies recently (most notably "Spygate" and "deflategate" in the NFL in regards to the New England Patriots). Of course the first being "Watergate" in the Nixon administration. I agree to an extent of this making light out of a serious and dire situation that needs discussion, but I think most understand the severity of Hill's comments and the direction of country radio. I don't even know what to say about Hill's comments anymore. What in the world is his up with his love affair with food analogies? Now, he can make all the claims of women not targeting their demo's that they are chasing all he wants because that is a fact, though like I said, radio is a super influential media outlet and radio created the problem of less females on the radio, not the listener, but this quote you pointed out is easily the most ridiculous comment I have ever read on this discussion board since I joined. "Better crafted lyrics"??? This has got to be a joke. I understand the opinion of he didn't really want a debate, but judging by the amount of interviews he's conducted over the past few days, this guy is definitely looking for attention. Take a gander at the FGL boys' lyrics. Or perhaps Thomas Rhett's wonderfully crafted "Get Me Some Of That". If that's not enough, then Luke's poetic "That's My Kind Of Night". He can attack the business aspect of inequality of gender on country radio all he wants, since he does have a point of the targeted audience, but he's absolutely off base when accusing songs by women on country radio of lacking for artistry. Go figure!!!!
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Uncle Lumpy
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Post by Uncle Lumpy on May 28, 2015 16:32:10 GMT -5
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14887fan
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Post by 14887fan on May 28, 2015 16:51:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 16:55:04 GMT -5
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trebor
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Post by trebor on May 28, 2015 16:56:56 GMT -5
I'll be next in line to get hated here; and I'll throw in my two cents:
If you're looking at it from a broader perspective then it's most probably correct what Keith Hill is quoting.
However, we are again shooting the messenger and going generally ape in all directions; and pointing fingers at superficialities.
If anything is to change then the current vicious circle of trade dependencies must be overcome and that is practically impossible.
As long as creating music, composing and writing lyrics, producing and performing is not regarded as art that defines and shapes a nation's identity, converts into heritage and legacy for future generations to come and it's a nation's treasure and gold mule, then it's the way and saying of the money and greenbacks neither have a home, nor a conscience, and ultimately don't have to explain themselves; the only aim is to seek other money and to continuously grow.
Radio stations are no longer independent with the bulk belonging to a couple of big players. Any decision is backed by a survey or by various polls and whatever consultants come up with. If all goes wrong, then at least there was a survey that suggested otherwise; and consultants are not liable when forecasts don't come true. A lot of marketing money and promotion energy is put into maximising the artists on the main Billboard and Mediabase charts and its panel of radios which serve as a blueprint to the rest of the media outlets that mimic their ways and thus becoming self fulfilling prophecies.
Country music is a big buck business and the sole purpose of record companies and radio conglomerates is to generate maximum profit by keeping the costs and risks as low as possible and get the highest return on listener's satisfaction (as suggested by the various polls and surveys).
The only viable way to get more variety on the airwaves is to shatter the existing conglomerates and go back to the maximum 6 stations/media ownership rule, get all country stations on the charts panel (for Nielsen BDS it's a technicality; admittedly, a bit harder for Mediabase), so it will be harder for record companies to single out big panel stations for their strategic marketing.
And now this will freak out some: If equality cannot be reached by common sense and mutual consensus, then the Nation must declare music as a national asset and set rules to guarantee diversity, abolish gender discrimination; in short: implement quota's. Self regulation doesn't work, we all know all the lip service and hot bubbles.
trebor says: Amen; and don't shoot the piano banjo player :)
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carrieidol1
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Post by carrieidol1 on May 28, 2015 17:01:21 GMT -5
This, too, explained (far better, obviously), points I made in my post above. Very good article! Especially poignant was the part about songs not being tested until they are top 30 or 40, which inherently disadvantages women because their songs are played less; thus receiving lower scores.
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.indulgecountry
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Post by .indulgecountry on May 28, 2015 17:01:43 GMT -5
Lmfao at him telling women that they'd be played more if they made better music. It's becoming very clear that this guy is about as clueless as they come. I love all the retaliation posts that are popping up from female artist. I hope those keep rolling in, especially if they keep being vulgar/hilarious; I'm quite partial to Sunny Sweeney's "tomato rhymes with my ass."
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sabre14
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Post by sabre14 on May 28, 2015 17:18:08 GMT -5
We should all pitch in for a gift basket for her. I wish every single radio executive, programmer, producer, songwriter and artist could read that.
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jlatn5b
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Post by jlatn5b on May 28, 2015 21:10:49 GMT -5
^Agreed. I don't know why Hill enjoys these food analogies so much, but it'll be a shame if this now erupts into a "comedic" news story and a great opportunity for a serious discussion about females in country music is ruined. Actually, I think it's better that he used the tomatoes/lettuce analogy. It may have created some jokes and humor around it, but it made the comment go a lot more viral than it would have without it. The more people talk about tomatoes and salads, the more it spreads the story. While there still would have been plenty of outrage without it, tomatoes upped the viralability (if that's even a word?) x 100. I think it's much more effective than if it was just straight serious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 21:34:24 GMT -5
Um, fucking SERIOUSLY right now?? We're seriously saying this ignorant sexist ass bullshit in 20FUCKING15?!
So many people don't see women's issues as a big deal, but they sure are when people like this fuckface say stupid shit like this. Carrie Underwood, Martina McBride, Shania Twain, Faith Hill, Miranda Lambert, Reba McEntire, Dolly Parton, Jennifer Nettles, and even one of my favorite artists in the entire world, Linda Ronstadt, were HIGHLY influential on country music and are still very popular to this day. I don't know what I find more stupid - this shallow motherfucker disrespecting women and living in 1927, or the fact that he's comparing country music to a SALAD. Brotha if we are ANY part of a salad it's the DRESSING because it's all over the salad and it's not going anywhere bitch!!
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bboat11
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Post by bboat11 on May 28, 2015 21:59:39 GMT -5
Hey look! It's Ladies' Night!! This makes me really happy to see. I really hope more radio stations jump on board and do something similar!
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T
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Post by T on May 28, 2015 22:18:11 GMT -5
Ridiculous! I think someone should find Mr. Hill's residency & throw some tomatoes.
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