Taylor Swift – Lover

[deepston]

Jun 16, 2019 10:44:26 GMT -5 @pma2015 said:

The cover no shade is nice but it's also very Katy. I dont like her hair but I love PINK and clouds and blues and ethereal

I've been sneaking in old Taylor records and while I use to shade her then saying she is a pop star pretending to be country. I was so wrong. Her songs, her lyrics, her heart and authentic self shines in those records and her pop stuff seems more forced. Like she is goes from brilliant songwriter to peppy cheerleader high school so I think writing pop records isnt her strength or forte
I think country and more folksy material comes easier to her true self

I could be wrong cause I'm not exactly familiar will all her work but just passing my own judgement like I do based on how I hear it

Wow I thought I'd never see a post like this coming from you lmao

I agree that her strength is country/folk music. Red was perfection. But pop music is just very fickle and sometimes you get it very right (1989) and sometimes you get it very wrong (ME!). She's one of the best songwriters out there for country and pop ballads but there have been times she has struck gold in the past with pop uptempos (Blank Space and Style are prime examples but the whole 1989 record and most of reputation are very well written). 
I think that sometimes she actually waters down song's lyrics and makes them more basic so that they get radio replay. ME! is very subpar lyrically when compared to most of her discography.

[daddy]

Jun 16, 2019 11:16:40 GMT -5 deepston said:

Jun 16, 2019 10:44:26 GMT -5 @pma2015 said:

The cover no shade is nice but it's also very Katy. I dont like her hair but I love PINK and clouds and blues and ethereal

I've been sneaking in old Taylor records and while I use to shade her then saying she is a pop star pretending to be country. I was so wrong. Her songs, her lyrics, her heart and authentic self shines in those records and her pop stuff seems more forced. Like she is goes from brilliant songwriter to peppy cheerleader high school so I think writing pop records isnt her strength or forte
I think country and more folksy material comes easier to her true self

I could be wrong cause I'm not exactly familiar will all her work but just passing my own judgement like I do based on how I hear it

Wow I thought I'd never see a post like this coming from you lmao

I agree that her strength is country/folk music. Red was perfection. But pop music is just very fickle and sometimes you get it very right (1989) and sometimes you get it very wrong (ME!). She's one of the best songwriters out there for country and pop ballads but there have been times she has struck gold in the past with pop uptempos (Blank Space and Style are prime examples but the whole 1989 record and most of reputation are very well written). 
I think that sometimes she actually waters down song's lyrics and makes them more basic so that they get radio replay. ME! is very subpar lyrically when compared to most of her discography.

Agreed! She can write pop really well, but I also feel like she dumbs the lyrics down sometimes in an attempt to make a song more “instant”.

I’m assuming all this time she’s been writing and saving country/country-leaning songs for an eventual country release. I think the country format’s writing style is where her strengths lie and I can’t wait for that release day. I don’t see her putting out an average country release.

[Choco]

There are flashes of pop brilliance on reputation ("Delicate", "Getaway Car") and of course Red and 1989. I don't know why she's dumbing it down so much this time, but it's probably an aggresive course-correction after reputation. At least I'm kinda coming around to YNTCD. It's fun, dumb, but fun.

[Enigma.]

It's interesting because all the current trends are AGAINST her recent output (Billie Eilish being the biggest new star, country making a slight comeback on charts, 70s rock having a revival with Queen and Elton John etc, Kacey Musgraves winning AOTY). She could be more successful doing country pop actually.

Not that she isn't successful now, just a thought.

[Joe1240]

Jun 17, 2019 1:37:08 GMT -5 Enigma. said:

It's interesting because all the current trends are AGAINST her recent output (Billie Eilish being the biggest new star, country making a slight comeback on charts, 70s rock having a revival with Queen and Elton John etc, Kacey Musgraves winning AOTY). She could be more successful doing country pop actually.

Not that she isn't successful now, just a thought.

I could see Taylor coming back to Country pop in the future.Taylor is on Republic Records,She wouldn't go there and do Country. The closest I could see is Ed Sheeran type Acoustic Pop."You Need To Calm Down" with the stars in the video in the long run could help this era.Having a Music Video go viral helps a lot,It did a lot for Ariana Grande with her last era.I see this as being planned after "Me!" underperformed on the charts,This is a way to save the era.

[schnetzka]

[insen_13]

i love the music video 💪💪💪

[Enigma.]

Brilliant video! Surely lifts the song!

[Deleted]

Cute video. Nice to see her and Katy.

Always excited for a new Taylor album.

[adamalterlago]

Admittedly I'm a fan of Pitchfork but I'm livid at the coverage they are giving Taylor. I'm not even a big Taylor Swift fan but thought I would come show my support. They trashed ME! which I can get on board with (sorry) as I feel it is a very generic song and a huge step down from her most recent work. As far as CALM DOWN is concerned, it's not her best but I like it. It's a great, fun easy summer track. 
What pisses me off is that Pitchfork blatantly accuses her of using the LGBTQ community to her advantage. As a mixed race gay man, I'm offended by Pitchfork belittling someone who is using their massive platform to show their support. I wonder if Michelle Kim, the reviewer at Pitchfork, is gay? If she's not, she can throw her laptop out the window and take a seat. 
Maybe I need to calm down lol.

[Enigma.]

Jun 17, 2019 9:11:43 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

Admittedly I'm a fan of Pitchfork but I'm livid at the coverage they are giving Taylor. I'm not even a big Taylor Swift fan but thought I would come show my support. They trashed ME! which I can get on board with (sorry) as I feel it is a very generic song and a huge step down from her most recent work. As far as CALM DOWN is concerned, it's not her best but I like it. It's a great, fun easy summer track. 
What pisses me off is that Pitchfork blatantly accuses her of using the LGBTQ community to her advantage. As a mixed race gay man, I'm offended by Pitchfork belittling someone who is using their massive platform to show their support. I wonder if Michelle Kim, the reviewer at Pitchfork, is gay? If she's not, she can throw her laptop out the window and take a seat. 
Maybe I need to calm down lol.

I had kinda similar thoughts, except I'm white and gay, but it troubles me that the message Taylor is giving is not really empowering, it's more like HEY IT'S OK TO BE GAY!! And I'm like... yeah.

Of course I'm a huge Gaga fan but still for example "Don't hide yourself in regret/Just love yourself, and you're set/I'm on the right track, baby/I was born this way" is much more SUPPORTIVE to the LGBTQ+ community.

[BDGeek]

Jun 17, 2019 9:11:43 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

Admittedly I'm a fan of Pitchfork but I'm livid at the coverage they are giving Taylor. I'm not even a big Taylor Swift fan but thought I would come show my support. They trashed ME! which I can get on board with (sorry) as I feel it is a very generic song and a huge step down from her most recent work. As far as CALM DOWN is concerned, it's not her best but I like it. It's a great, fun easy summer track. 
What pisses me off is that Pitchfork blatantly accuses her of using the LGBTQ community to her advantage. As a mixed race gay man, I'm offended by Pitchfork belittling someone who is using their massive platform to show their support. I wonder if Michelle Kim, the reviewer at Pitchfork, is gay? If she's not, she can throw her laptop out the window and take a seat. 
Maybe I need to calm down lol.

I stopped taking Pitchfork seriously after they wrote so many unnecessarily scathing articles about Ed Sheeran during the Divide era. I'm not a Sheeran stan, but the amount of pettiness and snobbery Pitchfork put out toward him was just embarrassing.

The new video is a lot, but I appreciate Taylor being more vocal in her support of LGBTQ people. I know there's been a lot of discussion lately about brands and companies pandering to the LGBTQ community. But I will take that over being ignored or actively discriminated against.

[deepston]

Jun 17, 2019 12:02:51 GMT -5 Enigma. said:

Jun 17, 2019 9:11:43 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

Admittedly I'm a fan of Pitchfork but I'm livid at the coverage they are giving Taylor. I'm not even a big Taylor Swift fan but thought I would come show my support. They trashed ME! which I can get on board with (sorry) as I feel it is a very generic song and a huge step down from her most recent work. As far as CALM DOWN is concerned, it's not her best but I like it. It's a great, fun easy summer track. 
What pisses me off is that Pitchfork blatantly accuses her of using the LGBTQ community to her advantage. As a mixed race gay man, I'm offended by Pitchfork belittling someone who is using their massive platform to show their support. I wonder if Michelle Kim, the reviewer at Pitchfork, is gay? If she's not, she can throw her laptop out the window and take a seat. 
Maybe I need to calm down lol.

I had kinda similar thoughts, except I'm white and gay, but it troubles me that the message Taylor is giving is not really empowering, it's more like HEY IT'S OK TO BE GAY!! And I'm like... yeah.

Of course I'm a huge Gaga fan but still for example "Don't hide yourself in regret/Just love yourself, and you're set/I'm on the right track, baby/I was born this way" is much more SUPPORTIVE to the LGBTQ+ community.

This is more "it's okay to be gay" + "it's not okay to be a homophobe". I think Gaga's song was much stronger when it comes to LGBTQ support but this is pretty interesting, regardless.

[Treacherous]

I wonder where this is all coming from though.

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2019 9:11:43 GMT -5 adamalterlago said:

Admittedly I'm a fan of Pitchfork but I'm livid at the coverage they are giving Taylor. I'm not even a big Taylor Swift fan but thought I would come show my support. They trashed ME! which I can get on board with (sorry) as I feel it is a very generic song and a huge step down from her most recent work. As far as CALM DOWN is concerned, it's not her best but I like it. It's a great, fun easy summer track. 
What pisses me off is that Pitchfork blatantly accuses her of using the LGBTQ community to her advantage. As a mixed race gay man, I'm offended by Pitchfork belittling someone who is using their massive platform to show their support. I wonder if Michelle Kim, the reviewer at Pitchfork, is gay? If she's not, she can throw her laptop out the window and take a seat. 
Maybe I need to calm down lol.

Dont be maad be glaad. Its bitchfork. You dont need their validation!

[Mazo]

I hate to bring race into the argument, but it seems like certain publications are trying their hardest to dismantle the white pop star in the “woke” era for clicks and views and twitter retweets. I don’t know if the people writing the articles are black/poc or just some white apologists or if that even matters. But you never see them trashing black musicians in such a way that feels deliberate.

Personally, I feel like music nowadays is so bad that quality is no longer subjective or even objective. It just is. It very much has to do with what is trendy. Rap is trendy right now so the likelihood of a pop song doing well is very small and that doesn’t mean it’s a bad song because it doesn’t chart high. The success of a song nowadays is NOT measured by quality even though chart fanatics want to believe so. Trash seems to “win” every day. I mean, look at Spotify and Apple Music top 50. Garbage rap songs are dominating with little to no effort.

I also find it extremely weird that streaming has made it easy to access music in a way that has never been done before in previous generations yet most of the world, the US anyway, opts to listen to generic, same ol’ same rap music. You’d think music would be more diverse because it’s so easy to access it but shockingly it isn’t. Then again, look at the BO and most of the movies dominating being superhero films. It’s like the world has regressed while being progressive at the same time. I feel like the 90s were more diverse. 

[nickd]

I think a lot of people listen to more varied stuff, it's just that everyone has their own niche so none of the niches are popular enough to chart if that makes sense? For example, we have seen that the most streamed songs on Spotify this year vs last year are about the same, maybe even a slight decrease in streams, with the growth in streams going mostly to less popular songs, classics/recurrent songs, etc.

[Enigma.]

But don't forget that acts like Queen and Elton John are doing super well on streaming and this is 2019. Hell, Mr. Brightside by The Killers has almost 700 million listens on Spotify. So it's about having great songs together with the potential legacy with it. In the long run, many pop stars will remain big commercial forces, even if they are not "flavor of the months".

[adamalterlago]

Jun 17, 2019 22:43:44 GMT -5 Mazo said:

I hate to bring race into the argument, but it seems like certain publications are trying their hardest to dismantle the white pop star in the “woke” era for clicks and views and twitter retweets. I don’t know if the people writing the articles are black/poc or just some white apologists or if that even matters. But you never see them trashing black musicians in such a way that feels deliberate.

Personally, I feel like music nowadays is so bad that quality is no longer subjective or even objective. It just is. It very much has to do with what is trendy. Rap is trendy right now so the likelihood of a pop song doing well is very small and that doesn’t mean it’s a bad song because it doesn’t chart high. The success of a song nowadays is NOT measured by quality even though chart fanatics want to believe so. Trash seems to “win” every day. I mean, look at Spotify and Apple Music top 50. Garbage rap songs are dominating with little to no effort.

I also find it extremely weird that streaming has made it easy to access music in a way that has never been done before in previous generations yet most of the world, the US anyway, opts to listen to generic, same ol’ same rap music. You’d think music would be more diverse because it’s so easy to access it but shockingly it isn’t. Then again, look at the BO and most of the movies dominating being superhero films. It’s like the world has regressed while being progressive at the same time. I feel like the 90s were more diverse. 

You need to be careful here. I think publications are focusing in on the traditional white pop star because for a long time, the traditional white pop star has "borrowed" from other cultures, races and subgroups, becoming very rich while the ones who created the original sound or style do not. I do notice that publications like Pitchfork have shifted to a strong focus on hip-hop over the last two years and as much as I'm not a huge fan of hip hop in its current state (I'm into 90s hip hop), it's how things change. 
Trash seems to “win” every day. I mean, look at Spotify and Apple Music top 50. Garbage rap songs are dominating with little to no effort.
I'm not a big fan of what is currently "winning" either but what's trash is another person's treasure. Five years ago, people could say Taylor Swift's garbage pop songs are dominating the charts. In fact when "We Are Never Getting Back Together" hit #1, many people I know hated that song (I didn't). Same with "Shake It Off". 
You make some interesting points here and I have to agree with you in comparing streaming to the BO. It's a great way to understand how streaming works in comparing it to Marvel films. And the 90s were so diverse but at the same time, I think artists were made to stay in their lane more. If you were black, you had to do R&B or hip-hop (excluding a few artists like Lenny Kravitz) and if you were a white female on a guitar you were usually labeled as the next addition to Lillith Fair and given a theme song on a WB teen show. Today is much more inclusive. 
Sorry to go off on a tangent. Just wanted to point some things out from reading your post. Hope you're enjoying "Calm Down"! 

[weaver]

I just want to chime in here...I'm loving this song more with each listen/view of the video, and I am not a Taylor stan whatsoever. More of a casual fan/singles fan. As a gay man, who grew up in the 80s/90s and didn't feel that it was an option to come out until I was 33 (back in 2010), I think this is awesome. I think people who are thinking that she is pandering "need to calm down" and look at the big picture. Is there some over-correction going on in general right now, as far as gay pride? Perhaps. TD Bank has rainbows in their window, and everywhere is selling pride shirts. But there's two ways to look at that - the OMG I can't believe these companies are trying to cash in etc etc, or...feel good about the fact that LGBTQ people are finally being seen and acknowledged as people. That is where my mind is living. 10 years ago...even 5 years ago, my local Philadelphia news would not be telling us what the weather is going to be for the Gay Pride parade, and putting a little rainbow on the 7 day forecast. Maybe it's my age, and growing up feeling like I had to not be myself/watch every little mannerism lest someone call me out, but little things like that warm my heart and bring a little tear to my eye.

[adamalterlago]

Jun 18, 2019 7:40:26 GMT -5 weaver said:

I just want to chime in here...I'm loving this song more with each listen/view of the video, and I am not a Taylor stan whatsoever. More of a casual fan/singles fan. As a gay man, who grew up in the 80s/90s and didn't feel that it was an option to come out until I was 33 (back in 2010), I think this is awesome. I think people who are thinking that she is pandering "need to calm down" and look at the big picture. Is there some over-correction going on in general right now, as far as gay pride? Perhaps. TD Bank has rainbows in their window, and everywhere is selling pride shirts. But there's two ways to look at that - the OMG I can't believe these companies are trying to cash in etc etc, or...feel good about the fact that LGBTQ people are finally being seen and acknowledged as people. That is where my mind is living. 10 years ago...even 5 years ago, my local Philadelphia news would not be telling us what the weather is going to be for the Gay Pride parade, and putting a little rainbow on the 7 day forecast. Maybe it's my age, and growing up feeling like I had to not be myself/watch every little mannerism lest someone call me out, but little things like that warm my heart and bring a little tear to my eye.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm on the same page as you. 

[Bhad Bill]

Honestly though, some of my LGBT peeps need to note the irony of the song title and apply it to themselves!

This is so silly. Everyone is always acting the victim through the internet now.

While there are indeed problems with Taylor’s approach, and I understand the complicated dynamics in this conversation, in my opinion, these writers are taking their criticism too far.

Acknowledge what Taylor is doing wrong, but then also acknowledge what she’s doing right! Also, look how many LGBT people are involved in the video! Everyone!

The video is fun and silly and cute and Taylor has no bad intentions! That’s what my number one rule is. What is the person’s intention?

These articles need a couple paragraphs of positivity in addition to the negativity.

I do recognize though, that it feels a little cheap to decide that you’re now an icon to the gay community and explicitly saying phrases to pander versus a more subtle interpretation would have been better.

But she tried! And I truly believe it was with no other motive than a positive one, so I will give her that credit. It’s all good Tay Tay.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

The discussion around corporate pride often has to do with those corporations gunning for the gay dollar and that’s about it. Granted, any business that publicly supports LGBTQ rights is good for everyone (except homophobes) but there’s also the issue of pinkwashing (and whitewashing in a lot of cases) the story. People see pride and think of the parades and the colour and the celebrations but for many, pride is still meant to be a protest and a fight for rights. Trans people are still being killed simply for being trans. Trans POC in particular. People who don’t subscribe to the gender binary are mocked and misunderstood. So I think it’s understandable when people are a little critical of corporations sticking a rainbow flag on their logo and calling it a day. There’s so much more to pride than gay men and lesbians. And there’s more to LGBTQ than catch phrases and drag race. I enjoyed the music video for what it is but don’t let it mistake you. It barely scratches the surface on diversity within the rainbow. It doesn’t represent many.

[weaver]

Jun 18, 2019 8:06:01 GMT -5 Rose "Payola" Nylund said:

The discussion around corporate pride often has to do with those corporations gunning for the gay dollar and that’s about it. Granted, any business that publicly supports LGBTQ rights is good for everyone (except homophobes) but there’s also the issue of pinkwashing (and whitewashing in a lot of cases) the story. People see pride and think of the parades and the colour and the celebrations but for many, pride is still meant to be a protest and a fight for rights. Trans people are still being killed simply for being trans. Trans POC in particular. People who don’t subscribe to the gender binary are mocked and misunderstood. So I think it’s understandable when people are a little critical of corporations sticking a rainbow flag on their logo and calling it a day. There’s so much more to pride than gay men and lesbians. And there’s more to LGBTQ than catch phrases and drag race. I enjoyed the music video for what it is but don’t let it mistake you. It barely scratches the surface on diversity within the rainbow. It doesn’t represent many.

I can appreciate what you're -saying here, and of course we have a long way to go. But we have come a long way in a short amount of time - just a few years ago no artist would have dared to be this out there and bold in their support. I think Taylor's intention is in the right place. This isn't to say some of the corporate "tack a rainbow flag on it" stuff isn't a little much/a cash grab, but I don't think the two are in the same boat.

Side note - as far as corporations going for the gay dollar, or however you want to look at it, I'll take that over the "I have a right to refuse gay people service because religion" narrative. I never got why a business would even want to go there. I guess their bigotry is more important to them than having a successful business. I know as a gay person my money is still green so...I thank those people/businesses for outing themselves so I can be certain to never spend my money there.

Sorry to veer this a bit off topic but I guess it is all related to Tay's song and video.

[Rose "Payola" Nylund]

I’m all for artists like Taylor choosing to do songs like this. If they’ve been supportive in the past and it’s not a jump on a bandwagon, I’m personally cool. The intention is likely in the right place even if she may or may not have executed it precisely. I won’t fault someone for not being 100% educated on every aspect of everything lgbtq+.

Regarding businesses going for the dollar - unfortunately some try to have it both ways by promoting to gays using gay imagery and symbols only to turn around and support organizations and public figures in private who are anti-gay. People are free to choose where their money goes of course but if you’re going to preach veganism and animal rights only to drop your money into a pig slaughterhouse every morning, it’s kind of counterproductive.

[nickd]

Also, it's worth noting she got over 200 million Youtube views in the last year from countries that have laws criminalizing homosexuality, which compares to about 310 million from mainland Europe and 470 million from the United States.

There's a pretty good chance it'll hit #1 on trending in Malaysia (it was #5 fifteen hours ago when much of the country was still sleeping) where the laws on homosexuality are

Illegal
Penalty: fines, prison sentence (2-20 years), or whippings.

The video is also doing great in countries where the LGBT community still doesn't have as much widespread acceptance as in North America and Western Europe despite homosexuality being legal, like Indian (trending #1, over 100m views for Taylor's MVs in the last year) which only decriminalized homosexuality last year.

[YourFaveIsAFlop]

Jun 17, 2019 22:43:44 GMT -5 Mazo said:

I also find it extremely weird that streaming has made it easy to access music in a way that has never been done before in previous generations yet most of the world, the US anyway, opts to listen to generic, same ol’ same rap music. You’d think music would be more diverse because it’s so easy to access it but shockingly it isn’t. Then again, look at the BO and most of the movies dominating being superhero films. It’s like the world has regressed while being progressive at the same time. I feel like the 90s were more diverse. 

If you think superhero movies dominating is something unseen before, you should check out the 30s and 40s when studios were rushing singing cowboy movies out hand over fist because it was all people wanted.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2019 7:54:53 GMT -5 Bhad Bill said:

Honestly though, some of my LGBT peeps need to note the irony of the song title and apply it to themselves!

That’s what my number one rule is. What is the person’s intention?

THIS. People waste so much time being offended by people who are trying to help, it's so effing ridiculous already.

Taylor *tried* to do a good thing here, period. If you absolutely *must* find the potential negative in every scenario, that's on you.

[adamalterlago]

Jun 18, 2019 14:35:17 GMT -5 woabritney said:

Jun 18, 2019 7:54:53 GMT -5 Bhad Bill said:

Honestly though, some of my LGBT peeps need to note the irony of the song title and apply it to themselves!

That’s what my number one rule is. What is the person’s intention?

THIS. People waste so much time being offended by people who are trying to help, it's so effing ridiculous already.

Taylor *tried* to do a good thing here, period. If you absolutely *must* find the potential negative in every scenario, that's on you.

Well said!!!

[wjr15]

I gotta say that I'm loving the discussion in here right now. I know it's kinda off topic but both sides make good points.

For me, I'm happy to see Taylor being vocal about LGBTQ rights and incorporating it into her music, but I can't help but feel it's a bit calculated. She went from being quiet about her political views to full-on LGBTQ activist overnight. First saying ME! is for the gays, then all the rainbows/pride stuff at Wango Tango, followed by releasing You Need To Calm Down with lyrics featuring LGBTQ slang and a video full of LGBTQ icons, and then performing at Stonewall Inn. All during Pride Month.

Like I said, I appreciate what Taylor is doing and I'm glad she has vocally shown her support, its' just a bit much compared to where she was just one year ago, which makes it feel somewhat calculated. I think a more subtle, slow approach would've worked better. I just hope once Pride month is over, she continues this activism because she really can make an impact.